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View Full Version : Why we need a morally dark assassin



EmbodyingSeven5
07-11-2014, 04:05 AM
throughout the assassins creed franchise, the story has always went the same basic route of putting you in the shoes of an assassin slaying the corrupt Templars one by one. yet this whole time Ubisoft has clung to the idea that both the assassins and Templars both mean well and are both good and bad in different ways, in my view though the assassins are easily given the title of the good guys. but this isn't what ubisoft had in mind. we are supposed to be questioning ourselves constantly what side we think is right........... but we don't. I mean who honestly thinks the Templars views are more righteous or better than the assassins? anyone? what we need is the unthinkable. a branch of assassins that are corrupt and view the creed similarly to altiar at the beginning of AC1 , but like ten times worse. it would be a cool factor to play as a dark antihero assassin that kills Templars, and enjoys it extremely. And the character believing anything is permitted will kill any who stand in his or her way. or to play as a Templar hunting down this assassin branch. this type of story will really get us to question what side we stand on. what type of character would you guys like to see in the future!

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 04:08 AM
Not gonna lie. I thought this was gonna be a #weneedablackassassin thread and I had my Adewale picture ready.

But I agree all the way. We need "bad guy" assassins. Assassins that want Freedumz and will use loopholes in the creed to get it in anyway possible.

And TBH I think both Assassins and Templars ideologies are kind of nutty. Maybe cuz I'm a person who believes in moderate amounts of things. Moderate freedumz and controlz

EmbodyingSeven5
07-11-2014, 04:11 AM
Not gonna lie. I thought this was gonna be a #weneedablackassassin thread and I had my Adewale picture ready.

But I agree all the way. We need "bad guy" assassins. Assassins that want Freedumz and will use loopholes in the creed to get it in anyway possible.

And TBH I think both Assassins and Templars ideologies are kind of nutty. Maybe cuz I'm a person who believes in moderate amounts of things. Moderate freedumz and controlz

lol need to work on my titles then!

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 04:12 AM
I'm all for increased greyness--the direction I thought we were headed after AC3's nuanced Templars and frequently rage-fueled Connor. A morally ambiguous Assassin would be a good counterpoint to the Templar game a lot of people expect Comet to be. The trick in both cases, of course, would be writing the character with believable and compelling nuance--something with which the series has occasionally struggled.

@Mayrice--I was ready for the same thing. Every time somebody complains about diversity in AC, it makes Aveline sad.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2014/138/9/e/aveline_de_grandpre_by_chanastasiyava-d7iszn1.jpg

"You all forgot me so quickly"

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 04:13 AM
Why not let us play as not just a templar or an assassin at one point...

...but an ordinary soldier caught up in the mix?

and you kill people from both sides.

Infinite moral grayness!!


Edit:

woah, Deja vu

Fatal-Feit
07-11-2014, 04:39 AM
Somebody definitely missed out on Assassin's Creed 3, IV, and Freedom Cry...

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 04:41 AM
Somebody definitely missed out on Assassin's Creed 3, IV, and Freedom Cry...

It wasn't clear to the masses the assassins from those games were morally dark. The only one that is even implied to be in the wrong is Edward IMO. But in the end he's still cheered by the fans as doing justice.

It should be clearer.

Not musatche twirly though.

Just....the mustache is starting to grow... :rolleyes:

poptartz20
07-11-2014, 04:41 AM
Ohhh! I would love to see this. . . That one Assassin that takes things just a little to far to prove his point or to show that his way is the right way and uses the creed to back up his convictions. In a sense we got that with Edward, he morally didn't care about the creed or assassins or templars at first as long as he got some coin. He just wasn't DARK enough.

I love characters like that, they have so much depth to them!

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 04:49 AM
I think the key difference between this idea and somebody like Edward is that he is amoral, in the sense that he's just doing whatever he wants to line his pockets. Whereas a really dark assassin would be one who does totally twisted things out of a desire to serve justice. The one who is a little too willing to cross the line to bring down those who are (or who are perceived to be) evil. Slowly descending into the same darkness he set out to fight.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeWhoFightsMonsters

I'd really love to see this. I kind of hoped AC3 would go there--goodness knows Connor was sufficiently angry and misguided--and to be honest you can still interpret it that way to an extent. But yeah...an assassin who bends and breaks the code, abandoning honor in the pursuit of his quarry...that would be interesting indeed.

Fatal-Feit
07-11-2014, 04:51 AM
It wasn't clear to the masses the assassins from those games were morally dark. The only one that is even implied to be in the wrong is Edward IMO. But in the end he's still cheered by the fans as doing justice.

It should be clearer.

Not musatche twirly though.

Just....the mustache is starting to grow... :rolleyes:

What OP wants are for the Assassins to not be completely righteous and white-knighted(like the goodie two shoes in AC:2, AC:B, and AC:R), not evil for the sake of it. That was something very prominent in AC:3 and AC:IV. You had conflicted protagonists fighting against Templar who were arguably more virtuous and right-minded.

As for the request for a psychotic serial-killer that would kill anyone who stood in his path, I dig it. It'd be like playing a game about Haytham as an Assassin.

Calvarok
07-11-2014, 04:52 AM
Well I think Edward was the first morally dark assassin. Just because he eventually was guided onto a different path doesn't erase the fact that he's an extremely reprehensible person from the start. He killed a man and impersonated him for the sole purpose of monetary gain. He comes into contact with a black freedom fighter trying to free slaves and is like "Not my problem" until he learns that there's a Templar Key in it for him.

Edward is a piece of **** for a lot of the game, making worse and worse choices and becoming more and more self-centered, til he hits rock bottom and starts to turn things around, realizing that there are larger things to fight for than just himself.

But I agree with you, OP, because we've not really had a person who was definitively a true Assassin protagonist, but also in the wrong. I'm imagining a twist on the "leader assassin", where he rises through the ranks disdainful of how things are being run, and twists his branch of the order into a group who works against both the interests of Templars and other Assassin groups, carving their own path through history. And then the Templars of the region maybe making an temporary alliance with other Assassin groups to take you and your order out?

But although that would be interesting, I feel like Ubisoft has been getting the moral ambiguity aspect right lately. Connor started out as a typical righteous hero and then learned that the path of an Assassin is much darker and less obviously justified than that, that there could be no peace or mercy between Assassins and Templars, and that sometimes following what he believed to be right would bring as much harm as good.

There's still unexplored territory in terms of Assassins who are "true believers", because their creed allows for many different priorities and opinions on what is justice, who is innocent, and how far you must go to preserve peace.

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 04:54 AM
I think the key difference between this idea and somebody like Edward is that he is amoral, in the sense that he's just doing whatever he wants to line his pockets. Whereas a really dark assassin would be one who does totally twisted things out of a desire to serve justice. The one who is a little too willing to cross the line to bring down those who are (or who are perceived to be) evil. Slowly descending into the same darkness he set out to fight.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeWhoFightsMonsters

I'd really love to see this. I kind of hoped AC3 would go there--goodness knows Connor was sufficiently angry and misguided--and to be honest you can still interpret it that way to an extent. But yeah...an assassin who bends and breaks the code, abandoning honor in the pursuit of his quarry...that would be interesting indeed.

Nooooo D:

A dark assassin who never breaks the code. He abides to it to an extreme or even finds loopholes in it.

That would be the best.

It would be a great example of assassins who are clearly in the 'wrong' for once. (edward's situation was blurry. Plus he was the protagonist. Someone like this would be more fitting as an antagonist.)

Breaking the code would ruin the meaning behind it IMO.

@Fatal

that's not what I got from the OP at all.

And I wasn't vouching for serial killer who kills anyone. There is still a creed to follow. Just a more corrupt, but technically creed-abiding assassin.

LoyalACFan
07-11-2014, 04:54 AM
The Assassins were painted in a pretty bad light in Nikolai's story...

I kind of get what you mean, but I think they've done a reasonable job of making us question our actions throughout the games (excluding AC2/Brotherhood), certainly far more than most games. I felt bad about killing every single Templar in AC3, and most of the ones in AC1 (Robert and Majd had it coming). AC4 approached it a little differently, but I think it was equally as potent; it didn't make you feel guilty about killing the targets, as they were all pretty bad people, but it made you feel like you were no better than them. Laurens Prins especially; the whole gist of his speech was "yeah, I'm an awful person who's just in it for the money, but so are you, so don't pretend you're being noble by killing me." Sure, Edward wasn't officially an Assassin then, but the point stands.

I don't think they should ever make a game where the Assassins are explicitly the bad guys, because that would be just as one-sided and cheesy as it was in ACB. I hated that the Templars were psychotic power-hungry fascists in that game, and so too would I hate it if the Assassins are murderous thieving anarchists in a future game. Even if it was a game starring a Templar.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 05:03 AM
Pirate once wrote a fanfiction about an AC in India, and his main character was pretty loose in morals, he would torture a lot of people.

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:04 AM
The Assassins were painted in a pretty bad light in Nikolai's story...

I kind of get what you mean, but I think they've done a reasonable job of making us question our actions throughout the games (excluding AC2/Brotherhood), certainly far more than most games. I felt bad about killing every single Templar in AC3, and most of the ones in AC1 (Robert and Majd had it coming). AC4 approached it a little differently, but I think it was equally as potent; it didn't make you feel guilty about killing the targets, as they were all pretty bad people, but it made you feel like you were no better than them. Laurens Prins especially; the whole gist of his speech was "yeah, I'm an awful person who's just in it for the money, but so are you, so don't pretend you're being noble by killing me." Sure, Edward wasn't officially an Assassin then, but the point stands.

I don't think they should ever make a game where the Assassins are explicitly the bad guys, because that would be just as one-sided and cheesy as it was in ACB. I hated that the Templars were psychotic power-hungry fascists in that game, and so too would I hate it if the Assassins are murderous thieving anarchists in a future game. Even if it was a game starring a Templar.

Good point about one sided and ACB. I'm still bitter about that...But I guess there's bound to be ONE mustache twirling templar out there...

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:19 AM
As for the request for a psychotic serial-killer that would kill anyone who stood in his path, I dig it. It'd be like playing a game about Haytham as an Assassin.

A Haytham-esque Assassin would be almost dangerous levels of fun.


But I agree with you, OP, because we've not really had a person who was definitively a true Assassin protagonist, but also in the wrong. I'm imagining a twist on the "leader assassin", where he rises through the ranks disdainful of how things are being run, and twists his branch of the order into a group who works against both the interests of Templars and other Assassin groups, carving their own path through history. And then the Templars of the region maybe making an temporary alliance with other Assassin groups to take you and your order out?...There's still unexplored territory in terms of Assassins who are "true believers", because their creed allows for many different priorities and opinions on what is justice, who is innocent, and how far you must go to preserve peace.

I'd be down with this. There's a bit of a semantic flexibility in the Creed provided you take it at face value. I'd love a protagonist who is a total zealot for the cause, but in a warped and misconstrued fashion.


Nooooo D:

A dark assassin who never breaks the code. He abides to it to an extreme or even finds loopholes in it.

I think you, me and Calvarok are on roughly the same page here. When I referred to violating the Creed before, I was thinking in terms of Ezio's more philosophical formulation, which is not I suppose technically the Creed.

Although I think an Assassin protagonist who was really out of line would have to be shown to violate the 3 Tenets--which have been basically glossed over since AC1--while staying true to the Creed's Maxim, which is what the Brotherhood seems to have focused on in recent entries.

poptartz20
07-11-2014, 05:20 AM
The only thing about Edward that makes it a little different is that he "stumbled" upon the plight of Templars v. Assassins.

I think it would be an interesting aspect to see a person who is established as an assassin but gets tired of the ways assassins handle situations and takes things into his own hands? it would obviously have to be something he is personally invested in or the story wouldn't work. Such as his family was directly attacked by a templar faction, and the story works from there.. Or I could see anti-hero. Vegeta anybody? lol.


Haytham is a perfect example Feit!

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:22 AM
@grey

one of the tenants is to not kill innocents right?

what if the corrupt assassin did everything in his power to find something deeply flawed with every individual he ends up killing so he's technically not killing innocents? :rolleyes:

Fatal-Feit
07-11-2014, 05:22 AM
@Fatal

that's not what I got from the OP at all.

And I wasn't vouching for serial killer who kills anyone. There is still a creed to follow. Just a more corrupt, but technically creed-abiding assassin.

You're reading his solution. Here's his problem.


throughout the assassins creed franchise, the story has always went the same basic route of putting you in the shoes of an assassin slaying the corrupt Templars one by one. yet this whole time Ubisoft has clung to the idea that both the assassins and Templars both mean well and are both good and bad in different ways, in my view though the assassins are easily given the title of the good guys. but this isn't what ubisoft had in mind. we are supposed to be questioning ourselves constantly what side we think is right........... but we don't. I mean who honestly thinks the Templars views are more righteous or better than the assassins? anyone?

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:24 AM
@fatal

I dun get what ur trying to say

congrats on 1000th post BTW

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:26 AM
@grey

one of the tenets is to not kill innocents right?

what if the corrupt assassin did everything in his power to find something deeply flawed with every individual he ends up killing so he's technically not killing innocents? :rolleyes:

Haha, an interesting idea I suppose, though if taken to an extreme could be annoying. I could see it being cool in the vein of the protagonist bending the Creed to his own ends. Reminds me a bit of the fan theory that the Joker didn't kill Batman's parents, Batman is just projecting.

I am really fascinated with people who do horrible things believing they're in the right. Not like Spec Ops: The Line levels--a bit too dark for an AC game, I think--but that kind of tone.

Although it occurs to me that Arno could take us in a dark direction, between the revenge motivation and the fact that his voiceover in the SP gameplay sounds an awful lot like he wants to "cleanse" the city. I'd been interpreting his awareness of both sides' guilt as an indication that Arno would be more even-handed in dispensing justice, but it's possible he'll be equally unforgiving with both sides.

Xstantin
07-11-2014, 05:29 AM
It would be cool for once to destroy the Brotherhood instead of rebuilding it every game (even Edward who gave Assassins' locations to the Templars he ended up fixing the damn thing). In a way a renegade assassin would be something fresh (Nikolai was going in that direction but not everybody reads comics).

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:31 AM
Haha, an interesting idea I suppose, though if taken to an extreme could be annoying. I could see it being cool in the vein of the protagonist bending the Creed to his own ends. Reminds me a bit of the fan theory that the Joker didn't kill Batman's parents, Batman is just projecting.

I am really fascinated with people who do horrible things believing they're in the right. Not like Spec Ops: The Line levels--a bit too dark for an AC game, I think--but that kind of tone.

Although it occurs to me that Arno could take us in a dark direction, between the revenge motivation and the fact that his voiceover in the SP gameplay sounds an awful lot like he wants to "cleanse" the city.

Considering how screwed over templars get in the french revolution, it's possible Arno might reason with some templars at some point.

But the fact that he's buddy-buddy with 3 other assassins in co-op makes me think otherwise...

@KEV

Comet would literally be about destroying the brotherhood if the Shay rumors are legit

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:35 AM
Thinking about it, I'd love a callback to "the Three Ironies"--either as typifying the offenses of the dark protagonist, or--I think more interestingly--his justifications for bending the rules, perhaps rightly pointing out the central hypocrisy of the Assassins

A refresher on the Three Ironies:

~The Assassins seek to promote peace, but commit murder.
~The Assassins seek to open the minds of men, but require obedience to rules.
~The Assassins seek to reveal the danger of blind faith, yet practice it themselves

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:37 AM
^Yeah seeing a dark assassin bring that up would be cool attempt at justification.

As long as he doesnt technically break the creed :p

ooooh I'm excited already

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:38 AM
Thanks OP, now I really want this--and may never get it.

Xstantin
07-11-2014, 05:38 AM
Mayrice, I really hope so. Still, he'll be a Templar, right?

Calvarok
07-11-2014, 05:40 AM
I felt bad about killing every single Templar in AC3, and most of the ones in AC1 (Robert and Majd had it coming).
I always felt they did a much better job with AC3's templars. in AC1 I really felt like they fell into a super predictable formula that made it hard for me to feel sorry for them all, because it just always focused on how they were doing the right thing, much more than making any attempt to humanize them. In AC3 even people whose intentions are not pure, like Hickey, are sympathetic because you're made to empathize with them as a PERSON, not just understand how their goal was good. Their death feels like a tragedy, not just a mistake.

as for Edward's kills, the focus was less on Edward feeling guilty about killing them, and more about the various people that he might become. Notice how almost all of his targets became wealthy doing whatever it was they did? The Commodore, the hired gun, the slave trader... almost all of these people's occupations and places in life lie at the end of paths Edward could have taken in his quest for riches, and killing those men is part of what made him understand that there was a part of him that wanted to become more than that.

But yes, since he wasn't a true assassin til the end of the game, it's a very different dynamic.

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:42 AM
Mayrice, I really hope so. Still, he'll be a Templar, right?

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124211918/degrassi/images/e/e3/Of_Course!.gif

Game would be a disappointment otherwise!


Thanks OP, now I really want this--and may never get it.

Now you know how I feel.

https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1380428063/856190.gif

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:42 AM
Even so, it would be a refreshing change of pace. Heck, (if Comet stars a Templar) we might infiltrate the Brotherhood.

Fatal-Feit
07-11-2014, 05:45 AM
@fatal

I dun get what ur trying to say

congrats on 1000th post BTW

Thank you very much!

And


throughout the assassins creed franchise, the story has always went the same basic route of putting you in the shoes of an assassin slaying the corrupt Templars one by one.

They weren't corrupted in AC:3 and AC:4. In fact, their agendas were just as correct. AC:3 was the epitome of righteous Templar.


yet this whole time Ubisoft has clung to the idea that both the assassins and Templars both mean well and are both good and bad in different ways, in my view though the assassins are easily given the title of the good guys.

This was always questioned in AC:3. Templar by Templar, players are always questioning Connor's action. Especially when he teams up with Haytham. In AC:IV, Edward was joggling between the two factions.


but this isn't what ubisoft had in mind. we are supposed to be questioning ourselves constantly what side we think is right........... but we don't.

''We don't''(?) or he hasn't, which is why I'm assuming he haven't played AC:3 and AC:IV.


I mean who honestly thinks the Templars views are more righteous or better than the assassins? anyone?

There were plenty of people debating why they thought the Templar are more righteous in AC:3, and arguably AC:IV.

I-Like-Pie45
07-11-2014, 05:46 AM
You came here prepared to fight a madman Mayrice but instead you found...

A GOD

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:47 AM
Even so, it would be a refreshing change of pace. Heck, (if Comet stars a Templar) we might infiltrate the Brotherhood.

In AC: IV you could kill assassins at one point. I was thrilled.

This is an entirely new level of thrillness.

...

what?

I'm not crazy.

@Pie

U Wot M8?

Xstantin
07-11-2014, 05:51 AM
Even so, it would be a refreshing change of pace. Heck, (if Comet stars a Templar) we might infiltrate the Brotherhood.

Would be ironic if the protag ends up killing ACIII recruits. Or Connor for dramatic measure.

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:52 AM
I recall relishing that moment...and then getting penalized for killing them. Let me betray my brethren!

I-Like-Pie45
07-11-2014, 05:52 AM
In AC: IV you could kill assassins at one point. I was thrilled.

This is an entirely new level of thrillness.

...

what?

I'm not crazy.

@Pie

U Wot M8?

For Connor, the day Washington graced his village was the most important day of his life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:54 AM
Would be ironic if the protag ends up killing ACIII recruits. Or Connor for dramatic measure.

You just rocked my world with the recruits thing. They're already characterized and everything. Although if the rumor is true, Comet takes place before AC3, so it might not be likely.

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 05:54 AM
@grey

Yes....Kill them all... http://i.imgur.com/80U6cQX.png

@Pie

I'll just stand here and pretend I totally get what you're saying http://www.thewrestlingfan.com/images/wcsmileys/smiley2.png

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 05:55 AM
For Connor, the day Washington graced his village was the most important day of his life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

Hat tip for the Raul Julia/Street Fighter references.

Xstantin
07-11-2014, 06:00 AM
@Grey, Metal Gear pulled it off, so it's just wishful thinking on my side :) makes you actually care whom you kill in a game I guess. Now I'm getting hyped for Comet without any real knowledge :nonchalance:

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 06:03 AM
@Grey, Metal Gear pulled it off, so it's just wishful thinking on my side :) makes you actually care whom you kill in a game I guess. Now I'm getting hyped for Comet without any real knowledge :nonchalance:

All aboard the hype train

http://i.imgur.com/tVNzu.jpg

Xstantin
07-11-2014, 06:12 AM
Hype trains are dangerous. I'm still thinking about these frozen lakes in ACIII

SpiritOfNevaeh
07-11-2014, 06:15 AM
Hype trains are dangerous. I'm still thinking about these frozen lakes in ACIII

That makes two of us...

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 06:16 AM
If Comet really is a templar game and also includes Haytham and good MD plot progression I will already be 100% satisfied.

The game can be made with stick figures for all I care.

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 06:27 AM
^^^Agreed.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 06:29 AM
everything is bene


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTqXEQ2l-Y&feature=kp

Sesheenku
07-11-2014, 06:39 AM
Man that would be sweet OP. Batman personality Assassin lol.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 06:45 AM
rofl

Batman is one of the furthest things from morally dark

masterfenix2009
07-11-2014, 07:03 AM
Great. Now I'm interested.

Though, sadly, I believe Comet will probably have you join the Assassins at the end of the game.

LoyalACFan
07-11-2014, 07:11 AM
I always felt they did a much better job with AC3's templars. in AC1 I really felt like they fell into a super predictable formula that made it hard for me to feel sorry for them all, because it just always focused on how they were doing the right thing, much more than making any attempt to humanize them. In AC3 even people whose intentions are not pure, like Hickey, are sympathetic because you're made to empathize with them as a PERSON, not just understand how their goal was good. Their death feels like a tragedy, not just a mistake.

as for Edward's kills, the focus was less on Edward feeling guilty about killing them, and more about the various people that he might become. Notice how almost all of his targets became wealthy doing whatever it was they did? The Commodore, the hired gun, the slave trader... almost all of these people's occupations and places in life lie at the end of paths Edward could have taken in his quest for riches, and killing those men is part of what made him understand that there was a part of him that wanted to become more than that.

But yes, since he wasn't a true assassin til the end of the game, it's a very different dynamic.

I agree. Then again AC1 in general was repetitive and predictable. Did anyone actually think Al Mualim was a stand-up guy? :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 07:50 AM
Altair was pretty dark...even after dropping the d-bag persona, he used violent interrogation and would kill the victim afterwards....He doesn't have to twitch and orgasm after he kills someone to be considered dark imo

poptartz20
07-11-2014, 08:03 AM
yeah good point. But I think it was more expected from him though considering he was already an A-hole to begin with and we start the game knowing he completely disregarded the Creed. vs. Us playing the character as he does it after giving it thought and planning for it.



If Comet really is a templar game and also includes Haytham and good MD plot progression I will already be 100% satisfied.

The game can be made with stick figures for all I care.

Bwaahaha... oddly enough. I think I would be okay with a game like this. -_- I LOVE HAYTHAM SO MUCH!

*insert a gif of extreme rustling* haha!

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 08:05 AM
yeah good point. But I think it was more expected from him though considering he was already an A-hole to begin with and we start the game knowing he completely disregarded the Creed. vs. Us playing the character as he does it after giving it thought and planning for it.
Oh so watching the guy actually turn to the dark side?? morally that is?

poptartz20
07-11-2014, 08:10 AM
isn't it always better that way!? *thumbs up*

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 08:11 AM
isn't it always better that way!? *thumbs up*
That would actually be pretty interesting...did you ever play Warcraft III?? (<--- it's relevant to the topic)

Farlander1991
07-11-2014, 08:18 AM
I don't get the fascination of wanting an apprehensive character for a protagonist in an AC game, and I've seen quite a lot of such suggestions over my time here. Somebody who enjoys killing and disregards everything and everybody. I also can't help but notice the irony, how people complain about Edward not being an Assassin and yet want a character who's Assassin in name only and absolutely disregards the creed. And there's also the fact, if you want a dark character who follows the Creed, in his own way, then he's already not what's being asked for as he still has a higher goal.

I do like the idea of a character getting disillusioned in the Creed and starting to think that it won't make things better, but that's different. And in the end, it would still be the result of a desire to achieve a nobler goal.

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 08:20 AM
I don't get the fascination of wanting an apprehensive character for a protagonist in an AC game, and I've seen quite a lot of such suggestions over my time here. Somebody who enjoys killing and disregards everything and everybody. I also can't help but notice the irony, how people complain about Edward not being an Assassin and yet want a character who's Assassin in name only and absolutely disregards the creed. And there's also the fact, if you want a dark character who follows the Creed, in his own way, then he's already not what's being asked for as he still has a higher goal.

I do like the idea of a character getting disillusioned in the Creed and starting to think that it won't make things better, but that's different. And in the end, it would still be the result of a desire to achieve a nobler goal.
Because when nothing is true and everything is permitted is uttered, it gives a sense of satisfaction...what did Ezio do with nothing is true and everything is permitted?? nothing at all...did he discuss it? did he resent it? did he struggle with it? nope, he just said it and yet people consider him more of an Assassin than Edward, even though they both became Assassins in the last 10 minutes of their respective games (AC II without DLC)

poptartz20
07-11-2014, 08:22 AM
I think it would be too... I think people connect more when you see why someone has been driven to a point of madness even if you don't agree with the way they have handled situation. It just ads more depth to a character. but yet they aren't too far gone to come back to the "light" It's pretty classic. Like if you know it Sasuke from Naruto. or Vegeta from DBZ or you could also do a Deathnote kinda spin to where the character is So far gone you want them to see the light again. ( I hope you know what I'm talking about on some of these. haha)

and to answer your question yes I did! I don't believe I ever beat it but I have played it. wow.. that was a long time ago. My Brother played it way more than I did.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 08:25 AM
and doesn't it just astound you when people say AC2 has the best story in the series yet ACR-AC4 are easily far ahead of the games before them in terms of story

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 08:27 AM
I think it would be too... I think people connect more when you see why someone has been driven to a point of madness even if you don't agree with the way they have handled situation. It just ads more depth to a character. but yet they aren't too far gone to come back to the "light" It's pretty classic. Like if you know it Sasuke from Naruto. or Vegeta from DBZ or you could also do a Deathnote kinda spin to where the character is So far gone you want them to see the light again. ( I hope you know what I'm talking about on some of these. haha)

and to answer your question yes I did! I don't believe I ever beat it but I have played it. wow.. that was a long time ago. My Brother played it way more than I did.
I think, yeah that's how they'll do it, slowly bring them to the dark side and then return them to the light because hey..

I would refer the journey to the dark side in Warcraft III with Prince Arthas, the guy was a Paladin and then turned into a death knight. I'm not suggesting the Assassin change allegiance but a similar arc to Arthas can kinda work....fueled by a goal, goal leads to atrocity, atrocity leads to more atrocity..etc.

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 08:32 AM
and doesn't it just astound you when people say AC2 has the best story in the series yet ACR-AC4 are easily far ahead of the games before them in terms of story
It does astound me--here, we have heaps of notions and creeds to discuss and dissect but all of it swept under the rug, here we have a large cast of Templars but they're all hollow, here we have Ezio who said "revenge almost consumed him" but shows no signs of such earlier in the story, says that he's not beyond revenge when pouncing Rodrigo then 5 minutes later and he's somehow beyond it and spares Rodrigo, here we have a huge cast of side characters that are either cliched, reskinned or just plain got no screen time, here we have a story devoid of any mention of Assassins and Templars apart from the first couple of sequences--mentions that really give no new insight on the conflict (just that the templars are still active which is obvious)--but people feel like it was more of an Assassin story because conveniently--after 20 hours of story--every character you met turns out to be an Assassin.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 08:36 AM
it may also be because of the glyphs that you could encounter every step of the way

ohh but apparently it doesn't count if you can uncover similar things in AC4 by stepping out of the animus. or maybe it only counts if it relates to history.

I will admit the glyphs were great and they're probably the main reason why people felt like there was more of an Assassin Templar connection in AC2 and ACB, but they were fairly shallow in terms of discussing any sort of creeds or ideologies, although I will admit that they added a lot of lore to the history of the series.

travilanche
07-11-2014, 08:38 AM
In response to OP's question...yes, I actually do think the Assassins are better than the Templars. The templars strive for peace through absolute control. And I am not a fan of this philosophy at all. And I honestly hope I never have to play an entire game as a Templar because of it.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 08:41 AM
If you are refuse to putting yourself into the shoes and viewpoints of those who oppose you, how do you know you truly believe what you say you believe?

poptartz20
07-11-2014, 08:44 AM
I think, yeah that's how they'll do it, slowly bring them to the dark side and then return them to the light because hey..

I would refer the journey to the dark side in Warcraft III with Prince Arthas, the guy was a Paladin and then turned into a death knight. I'm not suggesting the Assassin change allegiance but a similar arc to Arthas can kinda work....fueled by a goal, goal leads to atrocity, atrocity leads to more atrocity..etc.


Ahh! yes I know what your talking about! Good point!

That's what I like to see. The goal of the greater good consumes you to the point of the greater evil while still feeling just

travilanche
07-11-2014, 09:16 AM
If you are refuse to putting yourself into the shoes and viewpoints of those who oppose you, how do you know you truly believe what you say you believe?

Peace through control is what countries like North Korea look like. No rights to the people. Total horse sh#t. I have thought about it extensively. It is unlikely I would ever change my mind. I am even a very obvious beta and I still believe in almost absolute freedom. The only things that should ever be illegal are rape, murder, theft, assault, and the subsidiaries of those larger categories.

I do not believe the templars would see it my way.

Hans684
07-11-2014, 11:30 AM
Peace through control is what countries like North Korea look like. No rights to the people. Total horse sh#t. I have thought about it extensively. It is unlikely I would ever change my mind. I am even a very obvious beta and I still believe in almost absolute freedom. The only things that should ever be illegal are rape, murder, theft, assault, and the subsidiaries of those larger categories.

I do not believe the templars would see it my way.

You think that if the Templars "win" that they are going to pull of a North Korea? I guess the Ezio trilogy is to blame here. Guidance is a Templar goal, peace is a Templar goal, equality is a Templar goal... The ultimate goal of the Assassins and Templars is the same(peace) but the way they want peace is different. Templars want peace thought control, the Assassins trough free-will. Yet both use the same tactics, both orders have started wars, killed billions of innocents(direct or indirect), tortured, manipulated etc.., all in the name of peace. The Assassins are hypocritical serial killers and the Templars are corrupt leaders. But thanks to Godzio and Saintassins people think serial killers are the "good guys". Give a criminal the Saintassins Creed and all their sins are forgotten. We need more mustache twirling Assassins, an AC where we play a "good guy" Templar Grand Master and his/her's "good guy" Templar Order, a AC where we play the Mentor of a corrupt Assassin Order hunting down "good guy" Templars, a ordinary ranked Assassin planning on taking over the order and "enlighten" the Assassins Creed, as a Templar infiltrating the "bad guy" Assassins etc...

Farlander1991
07-11-2014, 11:54 AM
here we have a large cast of Templars but they're all hollow, here we have Ezio who said "revenge almost consumed him" but shows no signs of such earlier in the story

I wouldn't say that he shows no signs of revenge consuming him (heck, there's even a sequence that consists only of pretty much only assassination missions, Ezio was killing people left and right), but AC2 does miss opportunity of some poignant story beats.

The Carnevale is a good example, I think. Instead of being used as a contrived means to execute an assassination, it should've happened after the Templar plot in Venice was thwarted. To show Ezio trying to get back to a normal life, have fun, and realizing that he can't do so. Which would lead in more organically to the cutscene when it's his birthday and he doesn't realize what any of what he has done was for, enhancing the scene.

EmbodyingSeven5
07-11-2014, 03:32 PM
@grey

one of the tenants is to not kill innocents right?

what if the corrupt assassin did everything in his power to find something deeply flawed with every individual he ends up killing so he's technically not killing innocents? :rolleyes:

like Dexter morgan!

GreySkellig
07-11-2014, 03:47 PM
You think that if the Templars "win" that they are going to pull of a North Korea? I guess the Ezio trilogy is to blame here. Guidance is a Templar goal, peace is a Templar goal, equality is a Templar goal... The ultimate goal of the Assassins and Templars is the same(peace) but the way they want peace is different. Templars want peace thought control, the Assassins trough free-will. Yet both use the same tactics, both orders have started wars, killed billions of innocents(direct or indirect), tortured, manipulated etc.., all in the name of peace. The Assassins are hypocritical serial killers and the Templars are corrupt leaders. But thanks to Godzio and Saintassins people think serial killers are the "good guys". Give a criminal the Saintassins Creed and all their sins are forgotten. We need more mustache twirling Assassins, an AC where we play a "good guy" Templar Grand Master and his/her's "good guy" Templar Order, a AC where we play the Mentor of a corrupt Assassin Order hunting down "good guy" Templars, a ordinary ranked Assassin planning on taking over the order and "enlighten" the Assassins Creed, as a Templar infiltrating the "bad guy" Assassins etc...

A little extreme on the rhetorical front, but I have to say I kind of agree with this. Again, really seemed like the series might start to lean this way during AC3, what with that game highlighting the hypocrisy and violence of the Assassins, and the good intentions of the Templars. But that in the last act we basically got "haha, just kidding, Templars are sooooo evil, right guys?"

I would welcome the opportunity not just to witness, but to play through more nuanced and morally complex AC plotlines like those laid out. You don't have to believe the Templars are right to believe that many of them are well-meaning people working heroically for what they genuinely believe to be the greater good, against what to them appears to be a conclave of anarchists and murderers. Likewise, the Creed can easily serve many ideologies, not all of them as benevolent as that of peace through freedom. Give us ambiguity!

pacmanate
07-11-2014, 04:39 PM
I want an assassin who loves murdering. That's darkish/

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 04:44 PM
killing feels like winning

Hans684
07-11-2014, 06:35 PM
A little extreme on the rhetorical front, but I have to say I kind of agree with this.

Prefer extreme(sometimes satire or both), it gets the points across.


Again, really seemed like the series might start to lean this way during AC3, what with that game highlighting the hypocrisy and violence of the Assassins, and the good intentions of the Templars. But that in the last act we basically got "haha, just kidding, Templars are sooooo evil, right guys?"

And Black Flag. Black Flag has less "evil" Templars than AC3, more true Templars(AC encyclopedia if you disagree). Unlike some people I judge the Templars individually. Not every Templar has the same aim(Templars during the Crusade vs Templars in MD) or way of working(Hatham vs Borgia). Erudito commented that the Assassins is more alike than they think, believe it? Doesn't matter it's true. Anyone consider Haytham "evil" when we play as Connor? If you do, here is something funny. The way Haytham worked is at the same level as Altaïr. As an example we have the people they interrogated. Both of them killed anyone they interrogated. As for AC3 if it's true that they made the Templar "evil" in the last act, remember Edward Braddock or Silas? Well both of them is "evil" yet the Assassins speared them, why, why, why? They presence should be obvious, yet it's ignored because they only cared about the Colonial Templar. The Templars are the ones to hunt down and kill them. The Templars saving the day and the Assassins is still painted as "hero's". They let a crazy former Templar and a slave owner/seler(don't remember) live. What could Achilles possibly be doing that more important than the people they are meant to fight for in the name of peace?


I would welcome the opportunity not just to witness, but to play through more nuanced and morally complex AC plotlines like those laid out. You don't have to believe the Templars are right to believe that many of them are well-meaning people working heroically for what they genuinely believe to be the greater good, against what to them appears to be a conclave of anarchists and murderers. Likewise, the Creed can easily serve many ideologies, not all of them as benevolent as that of peace through freedom. Give us ambiguity!

I'd welcome anything for more better morally complex plotlines. I've given some examples and I'd prefer if Ubisoft when extreme on the matter and give the Assassins exactly the same treatment as the Tamplars, it would clean a lot of dirt regarding the "good" and "bad" guys. We would end up with just guys without the good, the bad and the ugly. Yes I'd prefer if they made people believe the Templars are right, it's how it's with the Assassins now. The way people look at both of the factions is with colored classes, how can there be a "right guy" in a war like the Assassin/Templar war? Both Hatham and Connor wanted the right thing, the best thing...Unity, but their duty(A/T war) was in the way. Yes the Creed has flaws but it's not shown unlike the Templar Goal where it's mostly flaws that is shown. I'm all for ambiguity, just go little extreme to get the points across.


killing feels like winning

That is true.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134324/the_deaths_of_game_narrative.php

Dome500
07-11-2014, 06:39 PM
Ohhh! I would love to see this. . . That one Assassin that takes things just a little to far to prove his point or to show that his way is the right way and uses the creed to back up his convictions. In a sense we got that with Edward, he morally didn't care about the creed or assassins or templars at first as long as he got some coin. He just wasn't DARK enough.

I love characters like that, they have so much depth to them!

My problem with Edward was that he did not care about ANYTHING but his gold and and maybe rum.
HE was more nihilistic, believing in nothing, only interested in money, etc.

I would like to have an Assassin who means good but goes to far (like the Assassin version of Haytham).

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 06:51 PM
I actually got the feeling that by the end, Haytham didn't really believe in the Templar cause or much of anything. He felt too manipulated by his circumstances that he didn't know what was the truth, he just went along with the position he held.

Sesheenku
07-11-2014, 08:01 PM
rofl

Batman is one of the furthest things from morally dark

Have you even watched the show? Part of the drama of it near the end especially is his slipping ability to control his desire to kill certain villains. Especially good ol Joker.

He never necessarily acts on the urges but he has struggles.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 08:15 PM
...what show?

Megas_Doux
07-11-2014, 09:27 PM
Batman does not even kill!!!

How come is he morally dark???

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 09:33 PM
I wouldn't say that he shows no signs of revenge consuming him (heck, there's even a sequence that consists only of pretty much only assassination missions, Ezio was killing people left and right), but AC2 does miss opportunity of some poignant story beats.
But it never really feels emphasized, not even Ezio's first kill is given much impact at all..the player can go ahead and murder hundreds of guards JUST as you put on the robes but nothing would happen, that's why even when he's killing left and right, I don't feel a difference because that's what i'v been doing ever since i put the robes on.

Farlander1991
07-11-2014, 09:38 PM
But it never really feels emphasized, not even Ezio's first kill is given much impact at all..

Wait... so you want to say that yelling out of the top of his lungs and anger "THE AUDITORE ARE NOT DEAD!!! I'M STILL HERE!!! ME!!! EZIO!!! EZIO AUDITORE!!!!!" and then feeling/looking exhausted after getting back to Paola was not impactful enough?

Serrachio
07-11-2014, 09:38 PM
I think what it boils down to in some regard is execution.

AC4, ACR and AC1 had good stories, but suffered in the way gameplay elements were implemented. I know it has improved over time, but I did feel that there was little to cohesively link AC4's sea traversal and main land pieces, other than "sail here, do missions, sail somewhere else, do missions". I'd have also appreciated the removal of the Assassination contracts and Mayan stelae from the whole "world is an open book" approach, since it takes away the gravity of Mary Read introducing the mechanics.

However, AC2, ACB, AC3 and AC3L had plently to do, but on deep analysis the former stories were rather hollow, AC3 had a hodge-podge of features with a poor economic system, and AC3L - while engaging and fun - could be completed without never really upgrading anything because the trading system was tedious and was not user-friendly, and everything in the game cost a crapton.

In regards to a "morally dark" Assassin, I would like someone who could turn the Creed's three ironies into a shield for their misappropriated views. How could you kill a fellow Assassin, if the third irony states that the Assassins strive to reveal the dangers of blind faith, but have to practice it themselves, and yet the second states they seek to open the minds of men, but follow rules?

They'd essentially be killing off one of their kind for having an open mind, despite their dedication to stopping blind faith. And also, if the ironies demonstrate that the Assassins embrace contradiction - "that one may be two things – opposite in every way – simultaneously." - then why do they kill Templars, who by their very nature pose a contradiction to the Assassins' aims? It is most puzzling.

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 09:41 PM
what

AC3 had one of the deepest stories in the series, if not the deepest

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 09:44 PM
Wait... so you want to say that yelling out of the top of his lungs and anger "THE AUDITORE ARE NOT DEAD!!! I'M STILL HERE!!! ME!!! EZIO!!! EZIO AUDITORE!!!!!" and then feeling/looking exhausted after getting back to Paola was not impactful enough?
That's not his first kill xD

LoyalACFan
07-11-2014, 09:46 PM
That's not his first kill xD

The fact that he was panicked, short of breath, and barely able to form coherent sentences when he reached Uberto's house afterward doesn't count? :p

Tenvern
07-11-2014, 09:49 PM
Did anyone else find it odd when guards came to Ezio just after he had aquired the robe and he killed them outright with no remorse.
I get that he had to protect himself, but he could've tried to run away.

I really liked AC2 and Ezio but some moments felt really forced and odd.

Aphex_Tim
07-11-2014, 09:49 PM
It's like his very first kill did not bother him at all. It was like "Hey, that guy just kicked Leonardo. Let me just stab him in the back, even though it was hardly a reason for him to die and I've never killed a man before; then nonchalantly dump his lifeless body at Leo's workplace."


Did anyone else find it odd when guards came to Ezio just after he had aquired the robe and he killed them outright with no remorse.
I get that he had to protect himself, but he could've tried to run away.

I really liked AC2 and Ezio but some moments felt really forced and odd.

Well, that's just how you decide to play. You can also just run away from them.
With the guard that was kicking Leonardo, you had no choice but to brutally murder him.

Farlander1991
07-11-2014, 09:50 PM
That's not his first kill xD

That's the first kill that matters. It's the person who was a friend of his family who betrayed them and destroyed their whole life.
Self-defense against two random guards trying to kill you and defending a friend from a random dude who's beating him up can't weigh as much gravitas. We're talking about Ezio here, he's been accustomed to violence his whole life, we start the game with him beating the **** out of everybody on the bridge, you can't expect him to go all Lara Croft from the TR reboot in those situations.


The fact that he was panicked, short of breath, and barely able to form coherent sentences when he reached Uberto's house afterward doesn't count? http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/tongue.png

Also that :p

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 09:50 PM
The fact that he was panicked, short of breath, and barely able to form coherent sentences when he reached Uberto's house afterward doesn't count? :p
He was running and just fought 5 guards (who were RIGHT in front of his supposed "savior"'s house, which is unbelievably dumb, mind you), anyone would be out of breath after that...not to mention that it didn't sound organic at all, it sounded awkward

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 09:54 PM
That's the first kill that matters. It's the person who was a friend of his family who betrayed them and destroyed their whole life.
Self-defense against two random guards trying to kill you and defending a friend from a random dude who's beating him up can't weigh as much gravitas. We're talking about Ezio here, he's been accustomed to violence his whole life, we start the game with him beating the **** out of everybody on the bridge, you can't expect him to go all Lara Croft from the TR reboot in those situations.
I didn't say he should go all Lara Croft, He could'v been expressed more emotion to the killing itself...groaning maybe, screaming or something...I didnt say he should be "oh my gut...i hafe blood over my hends....i killed hem...ohmy gut"

Another thing that really makes the first kill that matters REALLY pointless is that we'v been killing people left and right...i'll hardly feel anything from killing Uberto.

Farlander1991
07-11-2014, 09:55 PM
Let me just stab him in the back, even though it was hardly a reason for him to die and I've never killed a man before

How is there no reason? Leonardo was accused of consorting with enemy of the city/state by that person, if left alone he would do much more than just kick Leonardo, and left alive - it would be ****tons of trouble.

Though, btw, why nobody is surprised here how nonchalantly Leonardo reacts to that guy's death? :p


Another thing that really makes the first kill that matters REALLY pointless is that we'v been killing people left and right...i'll hardly feel anything from killing Uberto.

Well, first, most players would hardly kill anybody by that point of the game unless they were replaying. Second, it's not that we kill is what's important, it's who we kill. We're talking about revenge starting to consume him, about hatred Ezio had towards certain people, and he more than showed his hatred towards Uberto.

ArabianFrost
07-11-2014, 09:55 PM
I want an assassin who loves murdering. That's darkish/

Yeah. I want a Hannibal Lecter assassin. One thing though, does the Character stay dark and becomes an outcast at the end, or is it another "the hero learns the true meaning of friendship and love" sort of crap? To be honest, assassin protagonists are too much of a goody two shoes. Would be really cool to shed light (pun not intended) on the darker, more brutal assassins. One similar to Shahkulu and the like. It's not like the current assassins don't already murder everything in sight, then act noble. The protag can already be a crazy extremist murderer so we can justify killing all those guards.

Aphex_Tim
07-11-2014, 09:58 PM
Though, btw, why nobody is surprised here how nonchalantly Leonardo reacts to that guy's death? :p

That as well. "Oh, you killed him? Well then, just put him with the others so I can experiment on his dead body."

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 09:58 PM
Yeah. I want a Hannibal Lecter assassin. One thing though, does the Character stay dark and becomes an outcast at the end, or is it another "the hero learns the true meaning of friendship and love" sort of crap? To be honest, assassin protagonists are too much of a goody two shoes. Would be really cool to shed light (pun not intended) on the darker, more brutal assassins. One similar to Shahkulu and the like. It's not like the current assassins don't already murder everything in sight, then act noble. The protag can already be a crazy extremist murderer so we can justify killing all those guards.


Darby doesn't write Hannibal Lecters. :rolleyes:

#cookietowhoevergetsthereference

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 09:59 PM
How is there no reason? Leonardo was accused of consorting with enemy of the city/state by that person, if left alone he would do much more than just kick Leonardo, and left alive - it would be ****tons of trouble.
knocking him out would'v been fine...it was by order of the Florentine guard anyway so SOMEONE sent him there...no one cares that he never comes back?? now stop, you...dissecting it like this makes it sound dumber and dumber


Though, btw, why nobody is surprised here how nonchalantly Leonardo reacts to that guy's death? :p
The city gives them to him....for research....veeeeeery convincing.




Well, first, most players would hardly kill anybody by that point of the game unless they were replaying. Second, it's not that we kill is what's important, it's who we kill. We're talking about revenge starting to consume him, about hatred Ezio had towards certain people, and he more than showed his hatred towards Uberto.
They'd have killed 2 guards at the Auditore household and 5 guards in front of Uberto's house and one guard with Leo...that's 8 people...not hardly anyone. If revenge is really only about the hatred of those who were involved in the death of his family, then sure....Mario kinda saved him from that...with a simple line of "you're not Vieri do not become him" which is fine and all...I just wish i could have seen more of actual revenge consuming him, distrust, doubt...etc, not just hatred to the people who murdered his family but oh well...he says Revenge almost consumed him but now he's over it then proceeds to tell Rodrigo that he's not over it...Ezio, you little liar.

ArabianFrost
07-11-2014, 10:01 PM
Darby doesn't write Hannibal Lecters. :rolleyes:

#cookietowhoevergetsthereference
Is it too late to find it on his timeline?

LoyalACFan
07-11-2014, 10:07 PM
He was running and just fought 5 guards (who were RIGHT in front of his supposed "savior"'s house, which is unbelievably dumb, mind you), anyone would be out of breath after that...not to mention that it didn't sound organic at all, it sounded awkward

You fight two guards outside the Palazzo Auditore, then slowly sneak to Uberto's :confused: At least that's how I did it. I guess you could theoretically kill a ton of guards on the way, but that's kind of nitpicking since every AC game does that. Notably in AC3 when you're trying to lower your notoriety following the Boston Massacre; you can do it stealthily as Connor probably would have, or you can just kill the f**k out of every Redcoat in sight. Doesn't mean it canonically happened.

For that matter, AC3 didn't put any emphasis on Connor's first kill(s) either.

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 10:12 PM
You fight two guards outside the Palazzo Auditore, then slowly sneak to Uberto's :confused: At least that's how I did it. I guess you could theoretically kill a ton of guards on the way, but that's kind of nitpicking since every AC game does that. Notably in AC3 when you're trying to lower your notoriety following the Boston Massacre; you can do it stealthily as Connor probably would have, or you can just kill the f**k out of every Redcoat in sight. Doesn't mean it canonically happened.
There're 5 guards who ambush you right after you reach Uberto's house, it's a scripted fight.


For that matter, AC3 didn't put any emphasis on Connor's first kill(s) either.
It kind of did....just kind of....you can go through ALL of sequence 6 and 5 without killing anyone, just using your fists whenever you HAVE to fight (ignoring the constraints since they don't really make sense and are not present with Ezio in AC II) then Connor says that there's no need to kill Johnson now but then is forced to kill him anyway and then Connor talks about feeling regret...even as the story progresses, Connor starts getting more irate at Achilles' constant lack of encouragement or proper comfort and nonchalance...The game AT LEAST puts emphasize on his discomfort with killing.

Farlander1991
07-11-2014, 10:15 PM
it was by order of the Florentine guard anyway so SOMEONE sent him there...no one cares that he never comes back??

No body (I'm sure Leonardo experimented on it quickly), no witnesses, no accounting of where exactly the person disappeared. Yeah, good luck pointing blame at meaky Leo (not to mention Ezio makes sure before leaving Florence nobody is looking for him).


They'd have killed 2 guards at the Auditore household and 5 guards in front of Uberto's house and one guard with Leo

I never fought any guards infront of Uberto's house.


If revenge is really only about the hatred of those who were involved in the death of his family, then sure

What revenge is supposed to be about other than have it against those who are responsible to what happened?

I don't get your issue with this first kill. Why is his first non-main kill is supposed to be meaningful? Why does it have to affect him? Revenge is not rage against the whole world. It's revenge. Focused. Calculated. "I want THESE particular people dead. That's all I want".

Mario did not save him from hatred. He taught Ezio respect, yes. It doesn't mean that Ezio didn't have hate towards the conspirators inside them, and doesn't mean that he didn't have a calculated goal of killing absolutely every one of them. That's what revenge is. And when he did kill everybody (with the exception of Rodrigo who disappeared at that point), he didn't know what the **** to do next. Revenge controlled Ezio throughout a huge chunk of his life.

EDIT: Also, I can't believe there's an AC2-related topic that we actually argue about against each other, not together :D :p

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 10:28 PM
No body (I'm sure Leonardo experimented on it quickly), no witnesses, no accounting of where exactly the person disappeared. Yeah, good luck pointing blame at meaky Leo (not to mention Ezio makes sure before leaving Florence nobody is looking for him).
He was already jailed for suspected homosexual activity, they could have easily pulled him away and interrogated him...it's not like these guards are honorable whatsoever and would actually want witness accounts or evidence to implicate Leonardo...heck, the guard who came to him was a Templar guard even.



I never fought any guards infront of Uberto's house.
Yeah, well I replayed AC II a lot of times so I know for sure it's not a glitch with my game:p



What revenge is supposed to be about other than have it against those who are responsible to what happened?
I dunno...distrust of others? recklessness?? less inclination to listen to anyone easily? or maybe he was just referring to the hatred..


I don't get your issue with this first kill. Why is his first non-main kill is supposed to be meaningful? Why does it have to affect him? Revenge is not rage against the whole world. It's revenge. Focused. Calculated. "I want THESE particular people dead. That's all I want".
Because he's a 17 year old pampered kid who never killed anyone before in his life.
Okay and that's what he ends up doing anyway....so what exactly was he saved from??


Mario did not save him from hatred. He taught Ezio respect, yes. It doesn't mean that Ezio didn't have hate towards the conspirators inside them, and doesn't mean that he didn't have a calculated goal of killing absolutely every one of them. That's what revenge is. And when he did kill everybody (with the exception of Rodrigo who disappeared at that point), he didn't know what the **** to do next. Revenge controlled Ezio throughout a huge chunk of his life.
We can use that in argument against Ezio feeling more like an Assassin than Edward:p


EDIT: Also, I can't believe there's an AC2-related topic that we actually argue about against each other, not together :D :p
I think this is a first, yes:p

LoyalACFan
07-11-2014, 10:34 PM
There're 5 guards who ambush you right after you reach Uberto's house, it's a scripted fight.

There are only two of them, and you can easily get away from them. There's a group of Pazzi on the same block who can join the fight if you're close enough to them when you're being chased, but it's definitely not a scripted 5v1 fight.


It kind of did....just kind of....you can go through ALL of sequence 6 and 5 without killing anyone, just using your fists whenever you HAVE to fight (ignoring the constraints since they don't really make sense and are not present with Ezio in AC II) then Connor says that there's no need to kill Johnson now but then is forced to kill him anyway and then Connor talks about feeling regret...even as the story progresses, Connor starts getting more irate at Achilles' constant lack of encouragement or proper comfort and nonchalance...The game AT LEAST puts emphasize on his discomfort with killing.

I dunno, I thought there was a pretty big disconnect in AC3 too. Saying "oh, well, you can use your fists" is kind of a cop-out when you're explicitly told to kill someone (i.e. the rooftop sniper at the massacre) not to mention that it's exceedingly stupid that an unarmed, untrained 13-year-old could non-lethally take out a horde of mercenaries on the homestead when he first arrives. And expressing regret for killing Johnson immediately after slaughtering an entire city with Stephane felt a bit hypocritical :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 10:44 PM
There are only two of them, and you can easily get away from them. There's a group of Pazzi on the same block who can join the fight if you're close enough to them when you're being chased, but it's definitely not a scripted 5v1 fight.
The Pazzi guys always come in my game :| but yeah, okay...2 guards that i must kill. Saying you could get away from them is a cop-out when you're right in front of the house:p




I dunno, I thought there was a pretty big disconnect in AC3 too. Saying "oh, well, you can use your fists" is kind of a cop-out when you're explicitly told to kill someone (i.e. the rooftop sniper at the massacre)
He's still alive after the supposed action, though and he's gone after Connor sees Charles Lee...I can be convinced that Connor simply punched him or something then the guy managed to slip away when Connor was distracted.


not to mention that it's exceedingly stupid that an unarmed, untrained 13-year-old could non-lethally take out a horde of mercenaries on the homestead when he first arrives.
He WAS trained, though...he was already a warrior by that time, if that's stupid then a 17 year old escaping guards when the whole city is looking for him is just as stupid..


And expressing regret for killing Johnson immediately after slaughtering an entire city with Stephane felt a bit hypocritical :rolleyes:
How do you know he's not expressing regret for everything he did? killing Johnson AND that?

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 11:35 PM
I actually did feel like there should have been a scene on that night on the farm about Connor dealing with the fact that he killed someone.

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 11:41 PM
I actually did feel like there should have been a scene on that night on the farm about Connor dealing with the fact that he killed someone.
There should have been a lot of scenes for a lot of things in AC III to be honest...like his struggling with sparing GW

Shahkulu101
07-11-2014, 11:43 PM
The way he dealt with the GW revelation was terrible - he just let things be and only gave GW a slight reprimanding in the Benedict Arnold DLC.

Connor should have got angry, the angriest he ever was.

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 11:44 PM
There should have been a lot of scenes for a lot of things in AC III to be honest...like his struggling with sparing GW

THIIIIIIS


He seemed waaaaay too forgiving or at least tolerable of good ol' Georgie.

Especially after all the intense hate he gave Charles for thinking he did the evil deed of killing his mum.

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 11:50 PM
THIIIIIIS


He seemed waaaaay too forgiving or at least tolerable of good ol' Georgie.

Especially after all the intense hate he gave Charles for thinking he did the evil deed of killing his mum.


The way he dealt with the GW revelation was terrible - he just let things be and only gave GW a slight reprimanding in the Benedict Arnold DLC.

Connor should have got angry, the angriest he ever was.
This is why i felt that AC III was never Connor's game...his struggles and his story just took a backseat to something all the time...instead of getting a scene of him struggling with the revelation, we got the battle of Chesapeake and when Achilles asked why he was troubled, i thought that's when he'll tell him about GW and how he was the one responsible for the death of his mother but no, he just tells him that GW spared Charles' life..

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 11:53 PM
Thats why I kinda want Connor to be a templar. And for his life to be continuously miserable.

I want him to sit there and think. and reflect. and realize that maybe helping Georgie wasnt that wise. that maybe everyone he loved wouldnt end up dead if he had simply listened to reason and wasnt so impusive and stubborn.

He needs a lesson. >:C

Jexx21
07-11-2014, 11:57 PM
He did learn a lesson, a lesson of compromise.

JustPlainQuirky
07-11-2014, 11:58 PM
He did learn a lesson, a lesson of compromise.

pffft. did you hear his speech in forsaken? His compromise was basically "Bah, I'll deal with the hardships and continue what I'm doing."

He learned nothing IMO.

LoyalACFan
07-12-2014, 12:00 AM
The Pazzi guys always come in my game :| but yeah, okay...2 guards that i must kill. Saying you could get away from them is a cop-out when you're right in front of the house:p

I dunno, for me they enter their "alert" phase when I'm like a block away from his house. Skip to about 14:30.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cil6hfj8U

I've never had them spawn right outside the house. The guy in the video chooses to fight them, but notice the SSI is yellow before they see him, meaning you can actually escape them unlike the two guards who show up outside the Auditore house (if you try to run the SSI stays red even after you break their line of sight, so you can only end the conflict status by killing them). Anyway, for me, those guards start their chase about where it starts in the video, except I just hop up to the roof and hide in the garden there.


He's still alive after the supposed action, though and he's gone after Connor sees Charles Lee...I can be convinced that Connor simply punched him or something then the guy managed to slip away when Connor was distracted.

Pretty sure I just booted him off the roof, so I never noticed he was gone after the cutscene :p


He WAS trained, though...he was already a warrior by that time, if that's stupid then a 17 year old escaping guards when the whole city is looking for him is just as stupid..

I'm talking about the guys who ambush you in the stable in Sequence 5. He hadn't even been inside Achilles' house yet, much less trained under him. And he'd never even set foot outside his valley until then, so that precludes the possibility that he had been in battle before. Connor being a beast at 13 is just as silly as Ezio being a beast at 17. I'll give you the one about escaping Florence though; I don't think it's necessarily unrealistic that he was able to slip out, but the way it was done (in broad daylight with ridiculously overpowered courtesan blend groups) was stupid as hell.


How do you know he's not expressing regret for everything he did? killing Johnson AND that?

I was being slightly facetious about this one, because it's something that bugs me about the whole franchise. The deaths of main targets are always handled with the utmost respect and gravitas, while the deaths of random soldiers are just brushed off like nothing. I realize we can't have a white room speech for every kill, but I dunno, it's like they treat guards like robots. It might not be as bad if the Assassin said something to them after they finish a fight or pull off a stealth kill. This was one of the few things I liked about Brotherhood, the recruits always said something like "may you find peace in death" or something. Like a mini version of one of Ezio's sendoffs (the ones he does in Italian at the end of a death speech).

Assassin_M
07-12-2014, 12:11 AM
I dunno, for me they enter their "alert" phase when I'm like a block away from his house. Skip to about 14:30.

I've never had them spawn right outside the house. The guy in the video chooses to fight them, but notice the SSI is yellow before they see him, meaning you can actually escape them unlike the two guards who show up outside the Auditore house (if you try to run the SSI stays red even after you break their line of sight, so you can only end the conflict status by killing them). Anyway, for me, those guards start their chase about where it starts in the video, except I just hop up to the roof and hide in the garden there.
Those guys always came when I was about to knock on Uberto's door, they just came from the roof :|


Pretty sure I just booted him off the roof, so I never noticed he was gone after the cutscene :p
He's still in your grasp, though, booted him or not:p




Connor being a beast at 13 is just as silly as Ezio being a beast at 17.
So we can all just ignore the silliness, since that's what argument will boil down to, which was sillier than which :p


I was being slightly facetious about this one, because it's something that bugs me about the whole franchise. The deaths of main targets are always handled with the utmost respect and gravitas, while the deaths of random soldiers are just brushed off like nothing. I realize we can't have a white room speech for every kill, but I dunno, it's like they treat guards like robots. It might not be as bad if the Assassin said something to them after they finish a fight or pull off a stealth kill. This was one of the few things I liked about Brotherhood, the recruits always said something like "may you find peace in death" or something. Like a mini version of one of Ezio's sendoffs (the ones he does in Italian at the end of a death speech).
I think a way to do it would be after every fight...if you're in a 4 against one fight, the protagonist would kill every one then say a line for the last guy right after he kills him "i'm sorry it had to end this way" or something, like Connor saying thank you for every animal kill.

LoyalACFan
07-12-2014, 12:37 AM
I think a way to do it would be after every fight...if you're in a 4 against one fight, the protagonist would kill every one then say a line for the last guy right after he kills him "i'm sorry it had to end this way" or something, like Connor saying thank you for every animal kill.

Yeah, I agree. Maybe not for stealth kills, since that would kinda ruin the immersion if you're sneaking around and your Assassin won't shut the hell up, but for combat kills, definitely. John Marston kind of does this, except his comments are more along the lines of "I'm badass and you're not" ;)

SpiritOfNevaeh
07-12-2014, 01:22 AM
Yeah, I was kinda upset that he spared GW, but I think he realized that the deed was done and killing him won't bring his dead mother back. It doesnt make sense for anyone to kill someone for killing another, y'know? That'll be one crazy world we would live in if that occurred all the time lol

Assassin_M
07-12-2014, 01:34 AM
Yeah, I was kinda upset that he spared GW, but I think he realized that the deed was done and killing him won't bring his dead mother back. It doesnt make sense for anyone to kill someone for killing another, y'know? That'll be one crazy world we would live in if that occurred all the time lol
It's not sparing him that I had a problem with, I understand why he spared him but i wanted to see Connor talk about it, i wanted the story to explore it more.

Shahkulu101
07-12-2014, 01:35 AM
I wanted to running double assassinate GW and HK when the tweest was revealed

JustPlainQuirky
07-12-2014, 01:41 AM
To me the biggest insult was when after beating the main story you can literally play a fun sport with George Washington.

Like seriously, what the actual f*ck.

They're sporting buddies now?

I understand tolerance but that's a bit much...

SpiritOfNevaeh
07-12-2014, 01:45 AM
It's not sparing him that I had a problem with, I understand why he spared him but i wanted to see Connor talk about it, i wanted the story to explore it more.

Very true. As they admitted, there were a lot of things missing from AC3.

...And if you want to "accidentally" kill GW, play as Haytham in that mission "Unconvinced", and during the eavesdrop, whistle him to a corner and BOOM! Sweet revenge via Haytham :p


To me the biggest insult was when after beating the main story you can literally play a fun sport with George Washington.

Like seriously, what the actual f*ck.

They're sporting buddies now?

I understand tolerance but that's a bit much...

Lol yeah, that confused the heck out of me too...

Assassin_M
07-12-2014, 01:45 AM
To me the biggest insult was when after beating the main story you can literally play a fun sport with George Washington.

Like seriously, what the actual f*ck.

They're sporting buddies now?

I understand tolerance but that's a bit much...
It's most likely just there for the lulz...Connor's reply to him does not really seem like someone willing to play Pocce....like an easter egg "oh look you can play Pocce with Murica's first president"

JustPlainQuirky
07-12-2014, 02:04 AM
I did like Connor's remark when he said "a man like you doesn't deserve such peace" or something like that to Georgie.

So there's at least SOME resentment left.

Still hoping for Connor to change his beliefs or to have some regrets.

He had some when reading Haytham's journal at the end of forsaken but then his soliloquey afterwards totally made those regrets null and void.

travilanche
07-12-2014, 02:07 AM
You think that if the Templars "win" that they are going to pull of a North Korea? I guess the Ezio trilogy is to blame here. Guidance is a Templar goal, peace is a Templar goal, equality is a Templar goal... The ultimate goal of the Assassins and Templars is the same(peace) but the way they want peace is different. Templars want peace thought control, the Assassins trough free-will. Yet both use the same tactics, both orders have started wars, killed billions of innocents(direct or indirect), tortured, manipulated etc.., all in the name of peace. The Assassins are hypocritical serial killers and the Templars are corrupt leaders. But thanks to Godzio and Saintassins people think serial killers are the "good guys". Give a criminal the Saintassins Creed and all their sins are forgotten. We need more mustache twirling Assassins, an AC where we play a "good guy" Templar Grand Master and his/her's "good guy" Templar Order, a AC where we play the Mentor of a corrupt Assassin Order hunting down "good guy" Templars, a ordinary ranked Assassin planning on taking over the order and "enlighten" the Assassins Creed, as a Templar infiltrating the "bad guy" Assassins etc...

Yes, I do see the Templars turning the whole world into a state like North Korea if they had the opportunity. I also don't really believe the assassins are saints, or are always right. But what they believe is closer to what I believe than the Templars.

Both are fighting for an unattainable goal though. They believe that the human species is more than it actually is. We are animals. We are pack predators. And all predators kill their own kind for various reasons. This will never change. The assassins and templars will spin their wheels until humans either become extinct or evolve into some better species altogether. And that is fact.

JustPlainQuirky
07-12-2014, 02:10 AM
Never compare the Templars to North Korea.

Even Hitler would find North Korea messed up.

Hans684
07-12-2014, 10:36 AM
Yes, I do see the Templars turning the whole world into a state like North Korea if they had the opportunity.

Al Mualim.


I also don't really believe the assassins are saints, or are always right. But what they believe is closer to what I believe than the Templars.

Good it's something. So this is a personal tasks on the matter? You do know that the Borgia's is the most hated Templars. The Templars call it the Dark Age Of The Templar Order(fact btw, want me to get the source?). And if the Borgia's are bad then North Korea is even worse, the Templar will not do that, Juno maybe but not the Templars.


Both are fighting for an unattainable goal though.

Old news.


They believe that the human species is more than it actually is. We are animals. We are pack predators. And all predators kill their own kind for various reasons. This will never change. The assassins and templars will spin their wheels until humans either become extinct or evolve into some better species altogether. And that is fact.

That fact is inaccurate until something like that happen in real life since AC is based on present and past.

travilanche
07-12-2014, 11:12 AM
Al Mualim.



Good it's something. So this is a personal tasks on the matter? You do know that the Borgia's is the most hated Templars. The Templars call it the Dark Age Of The Templar Order(fact btw, want me to get the source?). And if the Borgia's are bad then North Korea is even worse, the Templar will not do that, Juno maybe but not the Templars.



Old news.



That fact is inaccurate until something like that happen in real life since AC is based on present and past.

Don't see how that is inaccurate since it is the truth about predatory behavior. And that behavior includes humans...since we are pack predators. Pretty sure it is 100% accurate.

Hans684
07-12-2014, 11:54 AM
Don't see how that is inaccurate since it is the truth about predatory behavior. And that behavior includes humans...since we are pack predators. Pretty sure it is 100% accurate.

"The assassins and templars will spin their wheels until humans either become extinct or evolve into some better species altogether. And that is fact." - You.

Was talking about the end result about the A/T war, not the predator behavior.

swoop12345
07-15-2014, 07:56 AM
I like Templars.
It's just who I am.
I believe in their motive and their plans and their future.
Call me a conspirator, a communist, but I honestly think order and control and unchallenged unity is righteous.

I still enjoy Assassin's Creed, but, with AC Comet about to be announced, I am REALLY glad I didn't sell my 360 to afford an Xbox One.

I hope Shay in Comet will hold true to the Order and represent the Templar beliefs. I don't want him to turn to the Assassins. I want him to be a true-to-the-bone TEMPLAR.
Please. Please.

Jexx21
07-15-2014, 11:27 AM
Except most of us don't believe the rumor that it's about a Templar named Shay who is also a sailor.

I don't want a Templar sailor anyway.

LatinaC09
07-15-2014, 12:51 PM
It would definitely be interesting to see a morally corrupt assassin but at the same time it would be odd and I'm not quite sure how that would fit. As much as people don't really believe it, the assassins in AC are supposed to be the "good guys". That's just how the game is. Yes sometimes we tend to get into a gray area (Edward, Haytham) but in general they are all morally good. It wouldn't feel like AC because morally corrupt to me means that the person don't want to be saved and will do whatever is necessary to get his point across. That's not AC anymore to me, that's an entirely different game. Even the templars are not always morally corrupt and they often despise those in the order that are.

JustPlainQuirky
07-15-2014, 02:53 PM
I don't want him to turn to the Assassins. I want him to be a true-to-the-bone TEMPLAR.
Please. Please.

Darby said there's no such thing as a 'true' Templar or Assassin, but I know what you're trying to say.

And I agree wholeheartedly.

RinoTheBouncer
07-15-2014, 03:10 PM
I agree with this thread, especially about the point where we get to question who’s right, continuously. ACIII was successful with that but ACIV took a step backwards. I wish we get to have an Assassin who really makes us question who’s right and who’s wrong. I believe we need better characters as protagonists and antagonists, not just a well-written and developed hero. We need better dialogues, more influential, tear inducing speeches and cutscenes, more moments and actions where we really say ‘No, the Assassins are wrong with this” and more “This Templar actually makes sense” kinda moments.

I wish the games become more controversial and discussion-worthy rather than the typical good-guys-after-bad-guys kinda story.

Jexx21
07-15-2014, 03:43 PM
Actually AC4 wasn't a step backwards at all if you pay close attention to the dialogue.

Hans684
10-03-2014, 05:12 AM
http://www.sharpfellas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Hannibal.jpg

EmptyCrustacean
10-03-2014, 11:14 AM
I'm all for increased greyness--the direction I thought we were headed after AC3's nuanced Templars and frequently rage-fueled Connor. A morally ambiguous Assassin would be a good counterpoint to the Templar game a lot of people expect Comet to be. The trick in both cases, of course, would be writing the character with believable and compelling nuance--something with which the series has occasionally struggled.

@Mayrice--I was ready for the same thing. Every time somebody complains about diversity in AC, it makes Aveline sad.

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2014/138/9/e/aveline_de_grandpre_by_chanastasiyava-d7iszn1.jpg

"You all forgot me so quickly"

Um. She was a DLC character that Ubisoft didn't see fit to include on the major platforms until well after its release because they didn't think a female fronted game would sell.

ze_topazio
10-03-2014, 11:38 AM
By that logic the Vita game should have had a man instead, we are talking about a system with a ridiculous small install base, but the selling point of Liberation was exactly the fact that it featured a female Assassin for the time and Ubisoft made sure to point that out every time they had the chance, since they used her gender as a big selling point I don't think they are afraid of anything.

Namikaze_17
10-03-2014, 04:35 PM
Shouldn't Nikolai and/ or Shay Count as Morally Dark Considering their Stories?

TheArcaneEagle
10-03-2014, 04:59 PM
Shouldn't Nikolai and/ or Shay Count as Morally Dark Considering their Stories?

I think they aren't really considered evil in the eyes of the player to be honest, I think what people mean is doing evil or messed up stuff like torture or murdering. Maybe an assassin who unlike all of the others DID actually kill civilians but was still an assassin.

Hans684
10-03-2014, 09:33 PM
Shouldn't Nikolai and/ or Shay Count as Morally Dark Considering their Stories?

Their not evil, so no. Shay was betrayed and Nikolai was betrayed, Shay was hunted and Nikolai was hunted, Shay hunted but Nikolai only wanted a peaceful life. Nikolai never wanted to be an Assassin and Shay questioned them. Don't see anything evil, Hannibal is evil.

Mr.Black24
10-04-2014, 05:40 AM
"The Assassins seek to open the minds of men, but require obedience to rules"

I rarely see this in action before. When does this ever occur? I mean, not killing innocents, hiding in plain sight, and not compromising the Brotherhood are reasonable and logical rules. I get Connor wanted to break the third by letting Washington know of the Assassin/Templar war, but that rule must be enforced in order to protect him from further distractions and pressure. He had a country to fight for after all. Achilles tried to explain him this.

Plus every Assassin that has done something morally dark were hunted down and killed, like how Escosa sentenced both Biassou and Jean-François Papillon, members of the Haitian Brotherhood, to death for killing innocent people during the Haitian Revolution. Plus, remember Duncan Walpole? He had a reputation that increased along with his skills, though his impulsiveness and temper - coupled with a growing arrogance - continued to be a liability and often led him to clash with the senior members of the British Brotherhood. Disappointed to find neither glory nor fortune with the Assassins, Duncan's loyalty to the Order faltered, which was taken advantage of by the British Templars, who eventually succeeded in turning Duncan to their cause. Man was a selfish and arrogant *****. Sure Edward was also a selfish man himself, but Edward not only gave the man accidental karma and service to the Brotherhood, but Edward changed for the better. Same with Altair, who was an another arrogant ***** who twisted the Creed to his own needs, but the dumb puppy got smacked in the nose, matured, and became one of the most renowned and legendary Mentor of all time. The Russian Brotherhood were abusive to Nikolai and his son, but they too were killed. I find it difficult, but also interesting to see corrupt Assassins, being Assassins, while still being permitted to be alive. I would like to see how this plays out.

Namikaze_17
10-04-2014, 06:12 AM
Their not evil, so no. Shay was betrayed and Nikolai was betrayed, Shay was hunted and Nikolai was hunted, Shay hunted but Nikolai only wanted a peaceful life. Nikolai never wanted to be an Assassin and Shay questioned them. Don't see anything evil, Hannibal is evil.

How is being Morally Dark = Evil?

It also can turn into some gray anti-hero type of Scenario as we somewhat saw with Nikolai and perhaps Shay. There are many morally ambiguous ways that said Assassin/ Templar can go if used the right way.

Hans684
10-04-2014, 09:00 AM
How is being Morally Dark = Evil?

It also can turn into some gray anti-hero type of Scenario as we somewhat saw with Nikolai and perhaps Shay. There are many morally ambiguous ways that said Assassin/ Templar can go if used the right way.

Really? the title is Morally Dark(evil), not Morally Gray(Anti-Hero) or Morally White(good).

The Templars have been shown as Dark, so why not the Assassins as well. You know, getting them at the same level creating a Gray erea. But that is something most people don't seem to handle(every reaction if any Evil suggestions while don't batting an eye about giving Templars a Evil roles, then goes around talking about Gray erea), since there is "good" guys and "bad" guys in AC.

m4r-k7
10-04-2014, 11:53 AM
The Templars have been shown as Dark, so why not the Assassins as well.

This is why I want a Japanese AC game with the story being that the assassins are the shogunate, rather than the Templars which would probably be the case.

TheArcaneEagle
10-04-2014, 02:16 PM
This is why I want a Japanese AC game with the story being that the assassins are the shogunate, rather than the Templars which would probably be the case.

Are you saying that assassins are the ones in power but the Templars are the faction that are struggling at that time? Eh, it doesn't really fit the role of Templars. They are supposed to be an established order with power and wealth whereas the assassins are supposed to be the rebels. That's how its worked in previous titles, despite their influence in power in the canon.

It would be very boring to have dominance when playing as the assassins because you have the resources and power that the Templars would not, allowing for you to essentially crush them.

You'd also be missing out on any Samurais or Karate which would suit the assassins very well in that era.

Hans684
10-04-2014, 09:19 PM
Are you saying that assassins are the ones in power but the Templars are the faction that are struggling at that time?

Depends on how you define power, since our powerful protagonist always ends up killing ever Templar.

Namikaze_17
10-04-2014, 10:01 PM
Really? the title is Morally Dark(evil), not Morally Gray(Anti-Hero) or Morally White(good).

The Templars have been shown as Dark, so why not the Assassins as well. You know, getting them at the same level creating a Gray erea. But that is something most people don't seem to handle(every reaction if any Evil suggestions while don't batting an eye about giving Templars a Evil roles, then goes around talking about Gray erea), since there is "good" guys and "bad" guys in AC.

Oh...well since you put that way, what's the point of this discussion? Because it's obvious that Ubi isn't gonna go that far into the dark side of the Assassins.

The closest we got/ get to that is Nikolai's Brotherhood and/ or the Colonial Brotherhood
( Pre AC3) and Perhaps the French Brotherhood.

Then again, we can argue they were Corrupted than Evil.

m4r-k7
10-04-2014, 10:18 PM
Are you saying that assassins are the ones in power but the Templars are the faction that are struggling at that time? Eh, it doesn't really fit the role of Templars. They are supposed to be an established order with power and wealth whereas the assassins are supposed to be the rebels. That's how its worked in previous titles, despite their influence in power in the canon.

It would be very boring to have dominance when playing as the assassins because you have the resources and power that the Templars would not, allowing for you to essentially crush them.

You'd also be missing out on any Samurais or Karate which would suit the assassins very well in that era.

What I mean is for an alternate story in Japan, it could be about the Japanese Assassins who are actually corrupt and are the shogunate. In order to beat this corruption, assassins from around the world come and try to take them down and so it could be a sort of assassins civil war.

Hans684
10-04-2014, 10:22 PM
Oh...well since you put that way, what's the point of this discussion?

Nothing until Ubisoft actually does sine thing like that but it's nice to discuss either way, especially with so many people against it. People don't like to loose their precious or have it in a bad light, a hero fantasy at it's finest.


Because it's obvious that Ubi isn't gonna go that far into the dark side of the Assassins.

You don't say.


The closest we got/ get to that is Nikolai's Brotherhood and/ or the Colonial Brotherhood
( Pre AC3) and Perhaps the French Brotherhood.

Indeed.


Then again, we can argue they were Corrupted than Evil.

That's the common thing regarding the Assassins, there is always something to argue even if the Templars do the same as them or they do the sane as the Templars.

EmbodyingSeven5
10-04-2014, 11:12 PM
just saw my old thread back on page one of fourm. * screams with joy*

just realized that I predicted right about the whole playing as a Templar thing. I hope the assassins in Rogue will have a darker feel to them