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Farlander1991
07-08-2014, 07:50 PM
Ok, so... A long time ago I've made a thread where I calculated how much percentage of the main campaigns in the series stealth is a viable option (in short, AC1 had 60%, AC4 56% and AC2/ACB/ACR/AC3 at around 40%). But there's also a lot of side content in the games, many of which is stealth-focused, so I decided to repeat the calculations taking all game content in mind.

Here are the principles I used in calculation.
a. Each mission (unless it's a cutscene mission) or substantial side activity gets 2 points to distribute.
b. If the mission has situations which can be fully completed stealthily, then both points get to the 'stealth viable' column.
c. If the mission doesn't have situations where stealth is an option (for example, it's an open combat mission) or doesn't have a scenario where stealth makes sense (for example, it's a mission where we follow an ally around an area) then both points go to 'the 'stealth not viable' column.
d. If the mission does have situations where stealth is applicable, but at certain points forces you into an open combat or chase or any kind of action situation, then each column gets 1 point. The exception is escapes after assassinations. 'Approach - Assassinate - Escape' is the core principle of an Assassin's Creed mission, so I decided that escaping after assassination should not detract from stealth viability if such one exists in the mission (not to mention they're usually fairly short deals).
e. After all points are reassigned, I sum them up and see what's the ratio between them.

Note that this system is not perfect. It doesn't take into account quality of missions, their length (a 10 minute stealth mission has got the same value as a 2 minute stealth mission), and the distribution of stealth and other situations (i.e. a mission with 7 minutes of stealth and 3 minutes of combat is equal to a mission with 3 minutes of stealth and 7 minutes of combat), but despite that I think it's a fairly accurate calculation that shows the general picture very well. And, the purpose of all this is just to see how much time stealth is a gameplay option (being a thing that AC fans demand a lot and consider to be a core of the series), and nothing more.

Here's the link to the spreadsheet I'm using (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eQ07CEUfoueQIWBYLiKNUw9a7jz4UarIN82bv2ZxNOk/edit?usp=sharing)

The results are as follows (note, the number in brackets by the category is how many points are in each category, each mission/meaningful activity has got 2 points). I would say it's safe to think that all results are accurate +/- 3-5% or so. Also, I don't count content available in limited editions (and then released later) as DLC, only what was released after the actual game's release. With the exception of AC2 sequences 12 and 13, since they're part of the main story.

AC1:
Main Campaign (34) - 56%
Investigations (92) - 58%
Total (126) - 57%

AC2:
Main Campaign (168) - 43%
Side Activities (110) - 61%
Total (278) - 50%

ACB:
Main Campaign (92) - 40%
Side Activities (132) - 64%
DLC (32) - 44%
Total (without DLC) (224) - 54%
Total (with DLC) (256) - 53%

ACR:
Main Campaign (94) - 45%
Side Activities (76) - 74%
Total (170) - 58%

AC3:
Main Campaign (88) - 39%
Side Activities (196) - 22%
DLC (54) - 54%
Total (without DLC) (284) - 27%
Total (with DLC) (338) - 32%

AC4:
Main Campaign (86) - 53%
Side Activities (188) - 63%
DLC (36) - 75%
Total (without DLC) (274) - 60%
Total (with DLC) (308) - 62%

So... yeah. Once again, due to the fact that my system is somewhat simplified, there might be a 3-5% margin of error, but generally speaking I'd say it's fairly accurate based on my attempts to try to make it more detailed.
AC1 has got the most stealth-viable main campaign, followed by AC4.
ACR is the game where stealth is viable the most in side-activities, followed by ACB.
AC4 is the game with the most stealth-viable DLC, followed by AC3.
But in total, AC4 is the game with the most stealth-viable content, followed by ACR.

And in reverse order, if we want the lowest numbers...
AC3 has got the least stealth-viable main campaign, followed by ACB.
AC3 has got the least stealth-viable side content, followed by (with a HUUUUUUGE difference) AC1.
ACB has got the least stealth-viable DLC, followed by AC3 (which in this case isn't bad for AC3 http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/tongue.png http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/biggrin.png since stealth in its DLC is very prominent)
In total, AC3 is the least stealth-viable AC game, followed by AC2 (once again with a fairly substantial difference between them, though).

And all this is proportionally speaking, keep in mind, but I think its proportions that are important for this statistic. In how much of the content we have stealth is an option, not the fixed number of stealth content (since then things might be skewed, like, AC3 with DLC in fixed numbers has got more stealth points than ACR, but I don't think it would do ACR justice).

If you have any feedback or suggestions for calculation principles, I'd like to hear them :)

JustPlainQuirky
07-08-2014, 07:53 PM
I don't really consider AC a franchise you go to for stealth but this is a nice statistic anyway.

Assassin_M
07-08-2014, 08:06 PM
This is an awesome analysis and it must'v taken a lot of work. I would also like to say that stealth is not viable in ever a splinter, you'll be put in open combat as soon as you approach the guards--presumably any attempt at stealth would be very contrived and non-traditional.

Farlander1991
07-08-2014, 08:12 PM
This is an awesome analysis and it must'v taken a lot of work. I would also like to say that stealth is not viable in ever a splinter, you'll be put in open combat as soon as you approach the guards--presumably any attempt at stealth would be very contrived and non-traditional.

Thanks :)

It is viable on the route to the Observatory, though, where there are quite a few of patrols (and where we can save the guardians). But I wasn't sure about when we get into the crystal skull room, since I always got into open combat there and never was sure if I just wasn't careful enough or if that's scripted.

Assassin_M
07-08-2014, 08:19 PM
Thanks :)

It is viable on the route to the Observatory, though, where there are quite a few of patrols (and where we can save the guardians). But I wasn't sure about when we get into the crystal skull room, since I always got into open combat there and never was sure if I just wasn't careful enough or if that's scripted.
Welcome.

Oh yes yes, sorry I meant the guards inside the observatory, I was supposed to put "platform" somewhere in my sentence but yes, it's inside the observatory that it's unavoidable.

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 09:35 PM
I do think that's pretty important too. people ragged on AC3 for having a lot of linearity, which it did, but I thought the Forts were pretty fantastic and very open/stealthable. and there were a lot of them, all pretty unique. And AC4's side assassinations were all pretty stellar.

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 08:27 AM
Added Assassin's Creed II.
The main campaign stealth viability is 43% (40% if we don't count the Seq 12/13 as main campaign, but I do count them as those, since, well, they're numbered sequences).
The secondary mission viability is 61% (due to the contract missions mostly, all but one don't have situations where you're put into an action situation and can be completed without entering open combat, even the one with 10 brutes).
Which brings the total stealth viability of Assassin's Creed II to 50%.

EDIT: I've also added the Secret Locations to ACIV, as well as the Aveline/FC DLC (I decided to not count the limited edition content such as secret location missions as DLC, as from some perspective they're not DLC at all, plus they're not that big). The ACIV total without DLC is 61%, with DLC is 63%.

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 10:16 AM
Hope enough time has passed for this not to count as double post. Apparently I was wrong with my AC1 calculations previously (as then I was doing them on the fly using mostly my head and a few notes rather than writing everything down in a sheet). I added AC1 to the sheet, and the stealth viability total of the whole game is 58%, which puts, proportionally speaking, AC4 ahead in the amount of meaningful content (i.e. extensive locations or designed missions, so nothing like saving citizens or pirates or little events like that count) where stealth is a viable/useful/sensible gameplay option (even without the DLC). Note that I use Director's Cut as the AC1 reference.

Shahkulu101
07-09-2014, 10:22 AM
What was in the director's cut?

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 10:28 AM
What was in the director's cut?

Director's Cut added four additional investigation types to replace some of the existing investigations (to add variety to the game), only one of them is stealth viable though (that being archer assassination).

roostersrule2
07-09-2014, 10:32 AM
What was in the director's cut?I think there were more mission varieties.

*EDIT: Farlander beat me, may I ask though, what were these mission types? Where they any good?

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 10:37 AM
I think there were more mission varieties.

*EDIT: Farlander beat me, may I ask though, what were these mission types? Where they any good?

Archer Assassination (like the soldier assassinations, but on rooftops and archers)
Merchant Stand Destruction (we have to push soldiers into merchant stands to destroy the stands in a limited amount of time)
Rooftop Race (get from point A to point B in an allocated amount of time, basically a, well, race)
Informant Escort (protect an informant from point A to point B)

Out of those I personally enjoyed all but the Merchant Stand Destruction missions, those were kinda lame.

pacmanate
07-09-2014, 12:24 PM
I do think that's pretty important too. people ragged on AC3 for having a lot of linearity, which it did, but I thought the Forts were pretty fantastic and very open/stealthable. and there were a lot of them, all pretty unique. And AC4's side assassinations were all pretty stellar.

Forts were nice but the broken stealth made it a pain

roostersrule2
07-09-2014, 02:07 PM
Archer Assassination (like the soldier assassinations, but on rooftops and archers)
Merchant Stand Destruction (we have to push soldiers into merchant stands to destroy the stands in a limited amount of time)
Rooftop Race (get from point A to point B in an allocated amount of time, basically a, well, race)
Informant Escort (protect an informant from point A to point B)

Out of those I personally enjoyed all but the Merchant Stand Destruction missions, those were kinda lame.They seem alright, not worth buying AC1 again on the PC though.

I don't think AC should stray away from it's current mission design rather then putting all mission types out and you choose which one you want.

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 02:10 PM
I think I need some sort of restructuring in my analysis principles/points, some Brotherhood/Revelations missions make that more than evident. Like, for example, there's a mission in Brotherhood where we learn how to recruit and have to get two people in the brotherhood. Technically, you can save the recruits in a manner that won't make you seen, so there are situations where stealth is useful and it's possible to complete the mission without entering combat. 2 points for stealth, right? But most of the mission is just running around the city to two points where the stealth part is just take out the fighting dudes without getting noticed, I can't give 2 points to that. Or, again in Brotherhood, there's technically an assassination mission which we can complete without being seen or entering open combat, but mission consists of, a) us going where courtesans point, and b) finding a target that's already running which we have to chase and kill (or send a recruit like the optional objective wants us to do). It's not a 2 points to stealth kind of thing.

Dome500
07-09-2014, 04:47 PM
I do think that's pretty important too. people ragged on AC3 for having a lot of linearity, which it did, but I thought the Forts were pretty fantastic and very open/stealthable. and there were a lot of them, all pretty unique. And AC4's side assassinations were all pretty stellar.

The main problem in AC3 for me was that the Stealth system was so weak, unstable and buggy at times. Would AC3 have had the Stealth system of AC4 or ACU I think I would have experienced it fundamentally different.



I think I need some sort of restructuring in my analysis principles/points, some Brotherhood/Revelations missions make that more than evident. Like, for example, there's a mission in Brotherhood where we learn how to recruit and have to get two people in the brotherhood. Technically, you can save the recruits in a manner that won't make you seen, so there are situations where stealth is useful and it's possible to complete the mission without entering combat. 2 points for stealth, right? But most of the mission is just running around the city to two points where the stealth part is just take out the fighting dudes without getting noticed, I can't give 2 points to that. Or, again in Brotherhood, there's technically an assassination mission which we can complete without being seen or entering open combat, but mission consists of, a) us going where courtesans point, and b) finding a target that's already running which we have to chase and kill (or send a recruit like the optional objective wants us to do). It's not a 2 points to stealth kind of thing.

Agreed, I think the main problem is that a lot of AC missions have semi-stealth in a way that in GAMEPLAY you can finish them without being detected by your OWN fault, but the game often auto-detects you in things like chases or throws you in those situations where Stealth is PART of it and PLAUSIBLE as well as HELPFUL but is not contained in a pure gameplay-to-story way.

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 12:32 PM
Okay, I tried a thing with AC4 main campaign. Basically, instead of assigning just 2 points to each level and dividing them in half if there's both stealth and non-stealth sections, I decided to separate each level into approximate goals/sections of the level, and assign point for each section if stealth is useful there (for example, Lively Havana has got Bonnet Escort, Thief Chase, Bar Brawl, and Escape, all stealth non-viable in this particular example), and proportionally speaking the result was almost the same - 57% stealth viability in AC4 main campaign (as opposed to 56% with the previous method). So I think I'll finish this with the old method as most likely the results wouldn't be greatly different.

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 01:23 PM
Finished up with Brotherhood and Revelations. Shohbit will be happy to know that Revelations, proportionally speaking, is the most stealth-viable game out of the whole Ezio trilogy :D (though also got the least content), and that proportionally speaking it's got the most stealth-viable side-content.

The Ezio Trilogy score is:
AC2:
Main Campaign (from 168 points) - 43%
Side Activities (from 110 points) - 61%
Total (from 278 points) - 50%

ACB:
Main Campaign (from 92 points) - 40%
Side Activities (from 132 points) - 64%
DLC (from 32 points) - 44%
Total (without DLC) (from 224 points) - 54%
Total (with DLC) (from 256 points) - 53%

ACR:
Main Campaign (from 94 points) - 45%
Side Activity (from 76 points) - Wooping 74%, no other AC game (haven't counted AC3 but I doubt it comes close) has got the amount of stealth viable content as ACR does (proportionally speaking of course), not even AC1 (if you count Investigations as side-content)
Total (from 170 points) - 58%

roostersrule2
07-10-2014, 01:46 PM
Just a question Farlander, do you count platforming levels as stealth missions? Like some of the tombs in the Ezio trilogy or are they not counted at all?

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 02:01 PM
Just a question Farlander, do you count platforming levels as stealth missions? Like some of the tombs in the Ezio trilogy or are they not counted at all?

Well, you can look at the table in the link and see for yourself :p J/k

I count only places where stealth is viable. I.e. it's a sensible (or forced) option from gameplay perspective. So the tombs that count are those that are filled with guards we can avoid/stealthily dispose. Most of AC2 tombs/Templar Lairs are like that, actually (with a few instances of forced chases or just empty places, in which case stealth is not viable). While most ACB secret locations constantly force you into battle/chase if there's anybody there, so they're not viable. And ACR if I'm not mistaken (looking at too many levels, hard to keep everything in my head) has got only one tomb where stealth is viable - the Cistern where we get the first key. Missions with pure platforming don't count towards stealth as well.

roostersrule2
07-10-2014, 02:22 PM
Ah okay cheers.

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 03:08 PM
Well, I'm done, I think. Link to the sheet is in the first post still. The results are as follows (note, the number in brackets by the category is how many points are in each category, each mission/meaningful activity has got 2 points). I would say it's safe to think that all results are accurate +/- 3-5% or so. Also, I don't count content available in limited editions (and then released later) as DLC, only what was released after the actual game's release. With the exception of AC2 sequences 12 and 13, since they're part of the main story.

AC1:
Main Campaign (34) - 56%
Investigations (92) - 58%
Total (126) - 57%

AC2:
Main Campaign (168) - 43%
Side Activities (110) - 61%
Total (278) - 50%

ACB:
Main Campaign (92) - 40%
Side Activities (132) - 64%
DLC (32) - 44%
Total (without DLC) (224) - 54%
Total (with DLC) (256) - 53%

ACR:
Main Campaign (94) - 45%
Side Activities (76) - 74%
Total (170) - 58%

AC3:
Main Campaign (88) - 39%
Side Activities (196) - 22%
DLC (54) - 54%
Total (without DLC) (284) - 27%
Total (with DLC) (338) - 32%

AC4:
Main Campaign (86) - 53%
Side Activities (188) - 63%
DLC (36) - 75%
Total (without DLC) (274) - 60%
Total (with DLC) (308) - 62%

So... yeah. Once again, due to the fact that my system is somewhat simplified, there might be a 3-5% margin of error, but generally speaking I'd say it's fairly accurate based on my attempts to try to make it more detailed.
AC1 has got the most stealth-viable main campaign, followed by AC4 (I forgot about a naval battle and a chase sequence in a few levels in my first calculation, so AC4 doesn't take the lead here actually).
ACR is the game where stealth is viable the most in side-activities, followed by ACB.
AC4 is the game with the most stealth-viable DLC, followed by AC3.
But in total, AC4 is the game with the most stealth-viable content, followed by ACR.

And in reverse order, if we want the lowest numbers...
AC3 has got the least stealth-viable main campaign, followed by ACB.
AC3 has got the least stealth-viable side content, followed by (with a HUUUUUUGE difference) AC1.
ACB has got the least stealth-viable DLC, followed by AC3 (which in this case isn't bad for AC3 :p :D since stealth in its DLC is very prominent)
In total, AC3 is the least stealth-viable AC game, followed by AC2 (once again with a fairly substantial difference between them, though).

And all this is proportionally speaking, keep in mind, but I think its proportions that are important for this statistic. In how much of the content we have stealth is an option, not the fixed number of stealth content (since then things might be skewed, like, AC3 with DLC in fixed numbers has got more stealth points than ACR, but I don't think it would do ACR justice).

pacmanate
07-10-2014, 05:26 PM
****ing AC3

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 05:33 PM
****ing AC3
AC II isn't far behind.....****ing AC II

JustPlainQuirky
07-10-2014, 05:43 PM
Why do I feel like many AC2 lovers and AC3 lovers hate each other or something? :confused:

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 05:50 PM
Main campaign wise, AC3 and Ezio's trilogy are all relatively the same, they're all more into action sort of things and provide less stealth situations.

It's the side content that pulls AC3 down. Had it instead of 5 random dudes per region that don't even detect you had 15 normal assassination contracts, things would've been much better already. Also, Homestead missions are a hefty chunk of side-content and most of them doesn't require stealth (one might add that it doesn't necessarily need to).

I just want to point out that this sheet just wants to show how much of the game stealth is an option. And also doesn't show the quality of the side-content. AC3's best side-content, like naval locations (with the exception of Fort Wolcott), and naval missions don't require stealth, doesn't mean they're bad.

pacmanate
07-10-2014, 06:02 PM
Why do I feel like many AC2 lovers and AC3 lovers hate each other or something? :confused:

Because Ezio had 3 games, loads of people love him, and before that it was only Altair, who had 1 game and it was fairly repetitive.

That said, I am not an Ezio lover if thats what you thought haha.

Dome500
07-10-2014, 06:04 PM
Yeah, that pretty much proved what I have been thinking and saying all along. AC III has the most crappy Stealth system and support I have ever seen in a game that uses Stealth as core or side pillar and element of it's fundamental game concept/fantasy.

AC2 has a lot of scripted combat stuff, the Stealth systems themselves work good but the viability overall is not as high as others and therefore it has less Stealth than the rest of the series.

Like I though ACR and AC4 as well as AC1 have the most Stealth viability in several categories.

Let's hope ACU will have even more (as it looks there is a good chance of that with the new mission philosophy and the Stealth core pillar).

What would interest me though @Farlander is the actual viability of Stealth in Assassination missions of all games. If we only take the Assassination missions, who is the most Stealth-viable there?
You don't have to do that, but it would definitely interest me in comparison.

JustPlainQuirky
07-10-2014, 06:04 PM
@pac

I didn't think that. i just noticed a lot of collision regarding the two games lately. But I'll drop the discussion. I don't want to stray from Farlander's thread topic. Maybe I'll bring it up in the AC discussion thread.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/2h6sxgj.gif

Lovely thread Farlander

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 06:10 PM
What would interest me though @Farlander is the actual viability of Stealth in Assassination missions of all games. If we only take the Assassination missions, who is the most Stealth-viable there?
You don't have to do that, but it would definitely interest me in comparison.

You mean like, main Assassinations only, or contracts as well?

In the first post there's a link to the Google sheet I'm using. I'll copy it here. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eQ07CEUfoueQIWBYLiKNUw9a7jz4UarIN82bv2ZxNOk/edit?usp=sharing)

There's all the missions from the games that are present in the calculation, and what points in what category are assigned to them. Take the missions you're interested in, see how many stealth/nonstealth points they've got, then see what the percentage is of the stealth points from total number of points for those missions :)

Just note, that for assassination missions specifically, I didn't detract stealth points if there are escape sequences after assassination, since it's part of the core AC assassination mission loop and usually is the shortest part of the mission anyway. But if there's forced action before assassination, or some other forced action other than escape (like boss battle in case of Tainted Blood from AC4), then points are detracted.

I can quickly do it if you want, just specify what kind of Assassination missions are we talking about here :)


Lovely thread Farlander

Why, thank you ^_^

SixKeys
07-10-2014, 06:28 PM
Nice work, this must have taken a while. I hope Unity will be closest to AC4 in terms of stealth viability.

Jexx21
07-10-2014, 06:30 PM
I still have the argue that AC3 and AC4 use the same stealth systems and they have the best stealth systems that the series has seen so far, it's just that AC3 didn't really design their missions around the stealth system very well.

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 06:32 PM
Yeah, that pretty much proved what I have been thinking and saying all along. AC III has the most crappy Stealth system and support I have ever seen in a game that uses Stealth as core or side pillar and element of it's fundamental game concept/fantasy.
the non-viability of stealth does not necessarily mean a crappy stealth system, it just means that the mission does not have stealth as a viable option not because it's a crappy system but because it's just not there.

roostersrule2
07-10-2014, 06:33 PM
I still have the argue that AC3 and AC4 use the same stealth systems and they have the best stealth systems that the series has seen so far, it's just that AC3 didn't really design their missions around the stealth system very well.And that the AI is broken.

You can have the best stealth systems in the world, but if your missions don't cater to them and the AI is poor then the stealth is bad.

Jexx21
07-10-2014, 06:34 PM
Exactly. I guess I have issues with semantics but I get annoyed whenever someone says that the stealth mechanics were bad in AC3 because they really weren't.

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 06:36 PM
Exactly. I guess I have issues with semantics but I get annoyed whenever someone says that the stealth mechanics were bad in AC3 because they really weren't.
It's not really semantics, if someone says that the stealth system was awesome in AC IV but then proceeds to take a crap on AC III, then that's a contradiction right there...it's basically saying that I love AC II's Templars but dislike ACB's Templars..

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 06:36 PM
I still have the argue that AC3 and AC4 use the same stealth systems and they have the best stealth systems that the series has seen so far, it's just that AC3 didn't really design their missions around the stealth system very well.

I dunno, I'm sure they share most lines of code, but there are several differences and new mechanics in AC4.


The bell
blowpipe/sleeping darts
can whistle from all hiding spots.
hive mind has been removed
new enemy archetype: the sharpshooter.
Eagle vision lets you tag enemies and see through walls
Throwing knife is an insta-kill gadget requiring some trickery to obtain.


Think these changes (and I'm sure some I forgot) make AC4 stealth play quite differently.

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 06:40 PM
Nice work, this must have taken a while. I hope Unity will be closest to AC4 in terms of stealth viability.

Thanks :) I hope Unity will be closer to ACR's side-activities in terms of viability :D

@Dome
Basically, I counted the main assassination missions. For the purposes of keeping every game on the same field for this comparison, I counted only missions where we kill more or less relevant/important characters (AC2 and ACB have a lot of nameless guys, like Savanarola's lieutanaints or Templar agent tutorial assassinations, for example, while other games don't necessarily have those in the main campaign, and if we compare assassinations specifically this might not be fair) that leads to a memory corridor speech (so the Charles Lee mission and the one where we chase Ahmet are not in here). The results are:
AC1 - 11 assassinations - 73%
AC2 - 16 assassinations - 69%
ACB - 4 assassinations - 88%
ACR - 6 assassinations - 42%
AC3 - 7 assassinations - 50%
AC4 - 10 assassinations - 75%
I don't think I've missed any important assassination mission.

Jexx21
07-10-2014, 06:42 PM
I seperate the guard "hivemind" AI from the stealth mechanics themselves

and yea, AC4 did add some nice new stuff, but it's the same basic mechanics

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 06:44 PM
I seperate the guard "hivemind" AI from the stealth mechanics themselves

and yea, AC4 did add some nice new stuff, but it's the same basic mechanics

Why would you seperate the AI, as it relates to stealth, from "stealth mechanics"?

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 06:45 PM
I dunno, I'm sure they share most lines of code, but there are several differences and new mechanics in AC4.


The bell
blowpipe/sleeping darts
can whistle from all hiding spots.
hive mind has been removed
new enemy archetype: the sharpshooter.
Eagle vision lets you tag enemies and see through walls
Throwing knife is an insta-kill gadget requiring some trickery to obtain.


Think these changes (and I'm sure some I forgot) make AC4 stealth play quite differently.
Only three of those that applies to the STEALTH SYSTEM which are the whistling from all hiding spots, Pipes/darts and eagle vision. The bell is an addition to the fort/tower system, Hive mind applies to AI, enemy archetype is just that, enemy archetype, Throwing knives are just a projectile weapon like the crossbow and bow which are not exclusive to stealth.

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 06:54 PM
Only three of those that applies to the STEALTH SYSTEM which are the whistling from all hiding spots, Pipes/darts and eagle vision. The bell is an addition to the fort/tower system, Hive mind applies to AI, enemy archetype is just that, enemy archetype, Throwing knives are just a projectile weapon like the crossbow and bow which are not exclusive to stealth.

Are you really saying that "sleeping darts" belongs to the stealth system, but "throwing knives" does not? That's just plain silly. The devs clearly created the mechanics for the throwing knives based on what role they wanted them to play in the stealth system. Namely as a single one hit kill. To balance how powerful throwing knives are they made it so the only way to obtain them was to disarm an officer.

That it's "just a projectile weapon" is obv irrelevant.

You can't create stealth mechanics without AI.

The bell is also clearly a part of the stealth system. If you get caught guards will call in reinforcements.

Archetypes is one class of AI. The AI is a vital part of the stealth mechanics

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 07:02 PM
Are you really saying that "sleeping darts" belongs to the stealth system, but "throwing knives" does not? That's just plain silly. The devs clearly created the mechanics for the throwing knives based on what role they wanted them to play in the stealth system. Namely as a single one hit kill. To balance how powerful throwing knives are they made it so the only way to obtain them was to disarm an officer.

That it's "just a projectile weapon" is obv irrelevant.

You can't create stealth mechanics without AI.

The bell is also clearly a part of the stealth gameplay loop. If you get caught guards will call in reinforcements.

Archetypes is one class of AI. The AI is a vital part of the stealth mechanics
I don't think you understand what stealth SYSTEM/mechanics is, the one Jexx referred to...What Jexx and I are referring to is the ability to get out of sight...how many viable options are there to be out of the sight of the guards.

I don't consider the knives a stealth option because you'd have to disarm a guard, like you said....i.e open combat. being a projectile weapon, it does nothing to modify the stealth system, unlike the darts...Darts provide a more tactical approach to every area, whereas I don't consider the throwing knife, like the bow and crossbow, to do anything for the stealth SYSTEM.

you also can't create combat without AI, see this is what I mean...Guard AI is not exclusive to stealth, it's part of the loop but not the system.

Again, it's a modification to the fort/tower system not the stealth system.

I already explained AI.

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 07:18 PM
I don't think you understand what stealth SYSTEM/mechanics is...What Jexx and I are referring to is the ability to get out of sight...how many viable options are there to be out of the sight of the guards.

I don't consider the knives a stealth option because you'd have to disarm a guard, like you said....i.e open combat. being a projectile weapon, it does nothing to modify the stealth system, unlike the darts...Darts provide a more tactical approach to every area, whereas I don't consider the throwing knife, like the bow and crossbow, to do anything for the stealth SYSTEM.

you also can't create combat without AI, see this is what I mean...Guard AI is not exclusive to stealth, it's part of the loop but not the system.

Again, it's a modification to the fort/tower system not the stealth system.

I already explained AI.

Throwing knives can be used strategically within stealth. For example you may use the knife to take out a sharpshooter, without having to run up to his platform. No other tool let's you do that silently. The throwing knife is a "free kill". The player needs to decide (that's the strategic part) which enemy is the most useful to take out. Think this is just as integral to stealh as sleeping darts. The fact that you only have one is what is new in AC4.

I'm confident that the devs where thinking way more about stealth then any other gameplay system when they designed the new rules for throwing knives.

Ofcourse there are various AI system and not all of them relates to stealth. The "hive mind" is clearly one that does though. You can't design gadgets, level layouts, enemy placements etc without knowing how the enemies behave. The part of the AI that relates to stealth is a super important part of the stealth system (hive mind, or no hive mind is one example).

Similarly, the part of the AI relating to combat is an important part of the combat mechanics. For example the devs claim to have improved the combat AI so that enemies no longer wait in line to attack. This will obv has a significant impact on the system.

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 07:30 PM
Throwing knives can be used strategically within stealth. For example you may use the knife to take out a sharpshooter, without having to run up to his platform. No other tool let's you do that silently. The throwing knife is a "free kill". The player needs to decide (that's the strategic part) which enemy is the most useful to take out. Think this is just as integral to stealh as sleeping darts. The fact that you only have one is what is new in AC4.
the obtaining of knives just negates its stealth use, since it's not viable in the situation itself if you want to be completely stealthy, besides that--ignoring everything--it can just be considered a reskin of the bow and crossbow, so it's not even really an addition to the stealth system, adding to that I don't even think its range is far enough to take out a sharpshooter from the ground, since it's not free aim but I might be wrong and even if you get close enough to the tower, the height of the platform would hinder you and act as a shield for the shooter.


Ofcourse there are various AI system and not all of them relates to stealth. The "hive mind" is clearly one that does though. You can't design gadgets, level layouts, enemy placements etc without knowing how the enemies behave. The part of the AI that relates to stealth is a super important part of the stealth system (hive mind, or no hive mind is one example).
Like I said, the stealth system we're referring to has nothing to do with AI, it's a separate thing from AI.


Similarly, the part of the AI relating to combat is an important part of the combat mechanics. For example the devs claim to have improved the combat AI so that enemies no longer wait in line to attack. This will obv has a significant impact on the system.
Not necessarily; for example, ACR stated that enemies are a lot more aggressive and attack more frequently, sure thing but what is the system? what does it revolve around? same as ACB, counter, start a kill streak, maintain streak...the guard AI changed but the combat system itself has not. it can influence the system but the system itself is unchanged, that's what me and Jexx were saying. AC IV influenced the base system of AC III by tinkering with the AI and adding subtle AI control mechanics (darts) but it remained largely unchanged.

shobhit7777777
07-10-2014, 07:44 PM
Only three of those that applies to the STEALTH SYSTEM which are the whistling from all hiding spots, Pipes/darts and eagle vision. The bell is an addition to the fort/tower system, Hive mind applies to AI, enemy archetype is just that, enemy archetype, Throwing knives are just a projectile weapon like the crossbow and bow which are not exclusive to stealth.

I don't think you understand what a "System" means or implies


Like I said, the stealth system we're referring to has nothing to do with AI, it's a separate thing from AI.

Yup, confirmed...you don't understand the term. You don't want to use 'System'....stick to 'Mechanics', as that is what you're actually discussing.

Sushi is right, in this case.

@Farlander

Nice work :)

Can we have a breakdown of the main assassination missions? Instead of all the missions? Like how many assassination missions and how open ended they are?

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 07:46 PM
I'm sure they share most lines of code"
the obtaining of knives just negates its stealth use, since it's not viable in the situation itself if you want to be completely stealthy, besides that--ignoring everything--it can just be considered a reskin of the bow and crossbow, so it's not even really an addition to the stealth system, adding to that I don't even think its range is far enough to take out a sharpshooter from the ground, since it's not free aim but I might be wrong and even if you get close enough to the tower, the height of the platform would hinder you and act as a shield for the shooter.

Disagree. The obtaining of knives is there to ensure that you only can have one in each stealth scenario. And this is also what differentiates it from the crossbow for example. It's an important rule change to the stealth system. I have taken out sharpshooters with the throwing knife, so I'm sure it works :).




Like I said, the stealth system we're referring to has nothing to do with AI, it's a separate thing from AI.

What I'm saying is that if you take out the AI, there is no stealth system.



Not necessarily; for example, ACR stated that enemies are a lot more aggressive and attack more frequently, sure thing but what is the system? what does it revolve around? same as ACB, counter, start a kill streak, maintain streak...the guard AI changed but the combat system itself has not. it can influence the system but the system itself is unchanged, that's what me and Jexx were saying. AC IV influenced the base system of AC III by tinkering with the AI and adding subtle AI control mechanics (darts) but it remained largely unchanged.

Small changes to the combat AI means small changes to the combat system. Radical changes may mean such a different experience that you would call it a new system.

As for the AI changes between AC3 and AC4 I don't claim that they alone means a new system. What I was trying to say is that even though a lot of the core is the same ("I'm sure they share most lines of code") AC4 made so many tweaks and additions that stealth plays very differently. I think it went from annoying to entertaining, which is a pretty big shift in my book!


Edit:

http://www.domesticatingit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/BatSignal-300x200.jpg

Jexx21
07-10-2014, 07:46 PM
Ehh.. shobhit I wouldn't be correcting M on semantics. I like both you guys but it's clear that we were talking about mechanics but that the actual terms got interchanged.

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 07:58 PM
Disagree. The obtaining of knives is there to ensure that you only can have one in each stealth scenario. And this is also what differentiates it from the crossbow for example. It's an important rule change to the stealth system. I have taken out sharpshooters with the throwing knife, so I'm sure it works :).
But the obtaining itself breaks the stealth and goes into combat, that's what I meant.
I concede that point then but out of curiosity, how many times did you try taking out guards from the ground using knives and how much did it work?



What I'm saying is that if you take out the AI, there is no stealth system.
There's no system at all, no combat, no nothing...again, what i'm referring to(which i know the correct term for now) are the stealth mechanics and i explained what I meant by them.





Small changes to the combat AI means small changes to the combat system. Radical changes may mean such a different experience that you would call it a new system.
Again, i explained that...the combat mechanic itself will not change, the actions and options you're given do not change. A combination of AI and mechanics would warrant a large change. the mechanic is influenced by the AI, you can't drastically change the AI and keep the system the exact same.


As for the AI changes between AC3 and AC4 I don't claim that they alone means a new system. What I was trying to say is that even though a lot of the core is the same ("I'm sure they share most lines of code") AC4 made so many tweaks and additions that stealth plays very differently. I think it went from annoying to entertaining, which is a pretty big shift in my book!
Sure, that's what we'v been saying all along..the base is the same, like you said but the tweaks AC IV made are what made that base work but it's the same base, same mechanics, that's what me and Jexx were saying


I don't think you understand what a "System" means



Yup, confirmed...you don't understand the term. You don't want to use 'System'....stick to 'Mechanics', as that is what you're actually discussing.

Sushi is right, in this case.
That can be attributed to my own comprehension and composition of the English language, then..


Ehh.. shobhit I wouldn't be correcting M on semantics. I like both you guys but it's clear that we were talking about mechanics but that the actual terms got interchanged.
no no, he's absolutely right to correct me, this IS more or less a discussion about semantics so correcting me was warranted.

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 08:02 PM
I think we know what the other person is trying to say now, so it's mostly just words/semantics at this point? Should we settle ;)?

Assassin_M
07-10-2014, 08:04 PM
I think we know what the other person is trying to say now, so it's mostly just words/semantics at this point? Should we settle ;)?
Agreed, settled.

shobhit7777777
07-10-2014, 08:13 PM
That can be attributed to my own comprehension and composition of the English language, then..


Perhaps. Even the best **** up.


I think we know what the other person is trying to say now, so it's mostly just words/semantics at this point? Should we settle ;)?

My work here is done....and turn off that damn signal

Sushiglutton
07-10-2014, 08:18 PM
Agreed, settled.

Cool :)!



My work here is done....and turn off that damn signal

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/symbol01_8911.png

Farlander1991
07-10-2014, 08:19 PM
@Farlander

Nice work :)

Thanks :)



Can we have a breakdown of the main assassination missions? Instead of all the missions? Like how many assassination missions and how open ended they are?

Is what I wrote in this post enough, or you want smth more detailed? (the info is based from the same numbers of the same sheet)


@Dome
Basically, I counted the main assassination missions. For the purposes of keeping every game on the same field for this comparison, I counted only missions where we kill more or less relevant/important characters (AC2 and ACB have a lot of nameless guys, like Savanarola's lieutanaints or Templar agent tutorial assassinations, for example, while other games don't necessarily have those in the main campaign, and if we compare assassinations specifically this might not be fair) that leads to a memory corridor speech (so the Charles Lee mission and the one where we chase Ahmet are not in here). The results are:
AC1 - 11 assassinations - 73%
AC2 - 16 assassinations - 69%
ACB - 4 assassinations - 88%
ACR - 6 assassinations - 42%
AC3 - 7 assassinations - 50%
AC4 - 10 assassinations - 75%
I don't think I've missed any important assassination mission.

Though, my analysis (both the full version and the short assassination post where I just took the numbers from the assassination missions only essentially) doesn't actually show how open-ended something is (so a mission can be a linear as hell stealth mission with desynch on detection, and it will still count), smth like that may require a somewhat separate and more specific analysis.

shobhit7777777
07-10-2014, 08:32 PM
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/symbol01_8911.png

http://files.sharenator.com/funny_gifs_batman_approves_Gifs_D_2-s480x368-266373.gif



Though, my analysis (both the full version and the short assassination post where I just took the numbers from the assassination missions only essentially) doesn't actually show how open-ended something is (so a mission can be a linear as hell stealth mission with desynch on detection, and it will still count), smth like that may require a somewhat separate and more specific analysis.

Yeah...I analysis on how open ended the missions would be interesting....it will weed out the super linear, forced stealth missions for a clearer picture. Thanks again Far.

Dome500
07-10-2014, 11:37 PM
Exactly. I guess I have issues with semantics but I get annoyed whenever someone says that the stealth mechanics were bad in AC3 because they really weren't.

I did not say the Stealth mechanics were bad, I said the system was bad.

The Stealth System - for me - includes not only the mechanics, but also how the elements of the world, the mechanics AND the A.I. work together as a system.
Which is crappy in AC3 and not bad in AC4.


I don't think you understand what a "System" means or implies

Shob got it right.


Thanks :) I hope Unity will be closer to ACR's side-activities in terms of viability :D

@Dome
Basically, I counted the main assassination missions. For the purposes of keeping every game on the same field for this comparison, I counted only missions where we kill more or less relevant/important characters (AC2 and ACB have a lot of nameless guys, like Savanarola's lieutanaints or Templar agent tutorial assassinations, for example, while other games don't necessarily have those in the main campaign, and if we compare assassinations specifically this might not be fair) that leads to a memory corridor speech (so the Charles Lee mission and the one where we chase Ahmet are not in here). The results are:
AC1 - 11 assassinations - 73%
AC2 - 16 assassinations - 69%
ACB - 4 assassinations - 88%
ACR - 6 assassinations - 42%
AC3 - 7 assassinations - 50%
AC4 - 10 assassinations - 75%
I don't think I've missed any important assassination mission.

Amazing, thank you. Yeah, that's what I meant.

Calvarok
07-11-2014, 02:26 AM
yeah, guard AI was the main thing weird about AC3. it was too finnicky. Even now I prefer to run around and play in AC3 than black flag, but trigger-happy guards with no discernible reason for being alerted to you are often an annoyance.

I think black flag's AI/systems worked better than any other AC game, except guards became almost completely deaf to noises from air assassinations, landing hard on the ground, and running. Which was a little too much. The stealth button in Unity is a long-needed fix, to strike a better balance between guards that are too perceptive to efficiently deal with and ones who are too oblivious to provide as interesting a challenge + illusion of intelligence.

TO_M
07-11-2014, 02:56 AM
Nice thread Farlander!

Though I do have some questions about your main assassination percentages. Do the percentages represent the freedom to use stealth only or also cases where stealth is forced on you? And what did you use to classify "targets"?

How did ACB get a percentage of 80% It might have been a while since I last played this game but if I remember correct there was only 1 assassination where a stealthy/free approach was viable. So how did you get 80%?


I also would be interested to see a comparison of freedom of approach during assassinations analysis for each game.

Assassin_M
07-11-2014, 03:01 AM
How did ACB get a percentage of 80% It might have been a while since I last played this game but if I remember correct there was only 1 assassination where a stealthy/free approach was viable. So how did you get 80%?
Only stealth, not freedom of approach, Juan, The Baron and Michelleto all have viable stealth scenarios..

TO_M
07-11-2014, 03:05 AM
Only stealth, not freedom of approach, Juan, The Baron and Michelleto all have viable stealth scenarios..

Ahah ok, like I said, it's been a while.

Farlander1991
07-13-2014, 07:58 PM
Yes, the analysis concerns only stealth viability - i.e. only where stealth is useful or could be used.

For the purposes of consistency, and the fact that AC wants to focus on social stealth, I define stealth situations as situations which can possibly lead to open combat (or any other confrontation, like chase, or even desynchronization), but can be averted with appropriate behavior/navigation/usage of stealth mechanics.

So, the Baron assassination technically is far from a quiet one, as it happens when there's fighting going on all over the fortress. But we can avoid ever entering open combat or be seen (or be the focus of) any other enemies, so going through the battlefield unnoticed by enemies is also a form of social stealth in a way (besides, there's still rooftop guards that don't participate in combat detection of which we can avoid), and it fits what I define as stealth situation, plus we have to kill the Baron without being seen or he'll kill the hostage. So it's a stealth mission.

In comparison, a similar assassination in AC2 - Dante and Silvio in the Arsenale, is not stealth viable. We're forced into open combat with Dante (of all people, btw, who we can't kill in open combat which... you know, doesn't feel good, that mission is so heavily scripted) and his soldiers, and then we get into a chase scenario with Silvio/Dante. So stealth is not a viable approach there, even as it concerns the 'social stealth through battlefield' way.

Analysis of how much freedom we in assassination missions is a much more complex one, and I'm not entirely sure when I'm going to do it yet (or, for that matter, what principles to use to keep it consistent).

Farlander1991
01-21-2015, 09:26 PM
If anybody's interested, for Unity (vanilla, without DK) stealth is viable for approx. 68% of the game (making it the game with the most viable stealth out of the whole series), but that's based on very quick and rough estimations, and I suspect that the percentage is actually higher as in Unity for things like escort missions you can pretty easily complete them without entering open combat and enemies noticing you. So let's say, like, 70%. Which is actually not bad, considering that the bigger part of the left out 30% is stuff like murder mysteries or enigmas. Check out the spreadsheet linked in the OP to see the calculations. As I said, though, very quick and rough, possible mistakes.

Fatal-Feit
01-21-2015, 09:33 PM
Was going to ask u about that, thanks!

It was pretty obvious that Unity had the most viable stealth, but this confirms it. It's going to be hard for Victory to trump it. :)

Shahkulu101
01-21-2015, 10:32 PM
And yet we had people complain about excessive combat... :rolleyes:

Farlander1991
01-21-2015, 10:44 PM
And yet we had people complain about excessive combat... :rolleyes:

Yeah, people keep saying that about ACIV as well, even though that one held first, and now second, place in terms of how viable is stealth. :rolleyes:

EmptyCrustacean
01-21-2015, 11:02 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again: yes, Unity is the stealthiest Assassin's Creed game. Stealth is encouraged in nearly all missions with multitudes of guards at every angle. Combat is also much harder once you take on more than 5 guards so it's in your best interest to remain hidden.


...Which is why it's so frustrating that it's the most technically broken stealth of all the games.

One of the things I love about Watchdogs (a better stealth game than Unity) is the cover system which made the gang takedowns so fun. The way you would be automaticaly crouched in restricted areas unless you instructed otherwise and the way you could move from cover to cover fluidly just by facing the direction of the wall you wanted to hide behind. In Unity the stealth system is useless seeing as (when it works) moving from cover to cover cannot be done without leaving cover which defeats the entire purpose.

Furthermore, the stealth and the combat cannibalise each other because the game is constantly forcing you into combat even when you've indicated that you want to be unseen. For instance, the crowd quests. Two criminals will fight police and then the game pulls you into combat making the police attack you. Why? I haven't told the game that I want to fight the criminals/police. I haven't pulled out my weapom.
Another example is that you could be in cover behind a wall when your allies are fighting enemies near by when the game will pull you out of cover and into combat. Why? I'm in cover. No one can see me. That means I don't wish to fight.
Or how about shooting an enemy with a beserk dart behind cover while his back is turned yet he manages to detect you instantly...

Yes, Unity is a stealth game but its rules for stealth is sloppy and all over the place.

Lastly, you cannot make combat harder in order to encourage stealth, refer to AC as a 'stealth game' in interviews (yes, I'm looking at you Amancio) and then offer combat upgrades so that each player has a 'unique play style'. You're either a stealth game or you're not. Period.

Farlander1991
01-21-2015, 11:20 PM
Why? I haven't told the game that I want to fight the criminals/police. I haven't pulled out my weapom.
Another example is that you could be in cover behind a wall when your allies are fighting enemies near by when the game will pull you out of cover and into combat. Why? I'm in cover. No one can see me. That means I don't wish to fight.
Or how about shooting an enemy with a beserk dart behind cover while his back is turned yet he manages to detect you instantly...

Well, as a person who 99%-ed Unity and put more than 80 hours in it (can't say for sure as half of my playthroughs were in offline mode, but I have 40+ recorded hours so we'll just multiply that by two) none of this stuff has ever happened to me.

People who fight don't attack me unless I'm just standing in the middle of the fight for quite some time (which, let's face it, is NOT a stealthy approach at all and why you wouldn't be attacked, so justified). Heck, I've even had some successful attempts of running through a fight, killing a few guys with a running assassination, and then run away from the battle without triggering open combat. Didn't always work, but then again, why should it?
I was never pulled out into combat while in cover. And the berserkers never detected me from a cover either.

I do agree about the cover controls, though. They're finnicky and in need of an update, and Watch_dogs is indeed more fluid. However, leaving cover does NOT defeat the entire purpose as you're still crouched and therefore unseen when you do so, it just makes doing the tasks you want to do harder.

EmptyCrustacean
01-22-2015, 12:24 AM
Well, as a person who 99%-ed Unity and put more than 80 hours in it (can't say for sure as half of my playthroughs were in offline mode, but I have 40+ recorded hours so we'll just multiply that by two) none of this stuff has ever happened to me.

I've also completed Unity at 99% (still waiting on the companion app to get 100) so what's your point?


People who fight don't attack me unless I'm just standing in the middle of the fight for quite some time (which, let's face it, is NOT a stealthy approach at all and why you wouldn't be attacked, so justified).

You haven't read my post properly. I said it FORCES you into combat with the police which makes the police AKA people who never attack unless provoked attack you. This can be if you're passing by and standing a few metres away.


I was never pulled out into combat while in cover. And the berserkers never detected me from a cover either.

Good for you that these instances never happened. I've also never experienced Arno falling through the ground or getting stuck in haystacks as reported by many others. So what? Does that take away from the problems other players have encountered? The technical difficulties of Unity vary from person to person so whether or not you've experienced these problems is irrelevant.


I do agree about the cover controls, though. They're finnicky and in need of an update, and Watch_dogs is indeed more fluid. However, leaving cover does NOT defeat the entire purpose as you're still crouched and therefore unseen when you do so, it just makes doing the tasks you want to do harder.

Leaving cover DOES defeat the purpose because you want to remain in cover not to be detected. That is the entire point of the cover system in Unity. Yes, you can get by without using cover to cover but it takes unnecessarily more time and renders the inclusion of the cover system pointless.

cawatrooper9
10-05-2015, 07:16 PM
Very cool, I like your method!
Also, I appreciate that this was done seemingly with no bias as to the merits of stealth, but rather knowledge for its own sake.
Stealth, while certainly a part of the franchise, is certainly not the only method of the Assassins. In fact, Bellec acknowledges this in ACU in his "Dagger in broad daylight" comment.

Jessigirl2013
02-05-2016, 08:13 PM
I always thought older AC games were more stealth focused.
AC II had a lot of missions which desynced you if you got detected, but I think newer games have lost that.
IMO being stealth focused is more challenging and I thought in Syndicate more missions should of either made you not be detected, or add it as an optional objective but I think the former is better than the latter.

cawatrooper9
02-05-2016, 09:41 PM
I always thought older AC games were more stealth focused.
AC II had a lot of missions which desynced you if you got detected, but I think newer games have lost that.
IMO being stealth focused is more challenging and I thought in Syndicate more missions should of either made you not be detected, or add it as an optional objective but I think the former is better than the latter.

Older games did have more common desynchronization for stealth, but those were often the only times stealth was a viable option (well, maybe not "only", but a large portion of them). Newer games often make stealth an option, but do not force it.

Xstantin
02-05-2016, 09:46 PM
^Hopefully it's gone for good. These "don't be detected" constraints always were horrible. I prefer to play stealthy myself, but I'd rather play it like that because I want Arno or whoever it is to be sneaky, not just because.

SixKeys
02-05-2016, 10:40 PM
I always thought older AC games were more stealth focused.
AC II had a lot of missions which desynced you if you got detected, but I think newer games have lost that.
IMO being stealth focused is more challenging and I thought in Syndicate more missions should of either made you not be detected, or add it as an optional objective but I think the former is better than the latter.

There are still missions in every game where detection means instant desynch. AC2 had more of it because they wanted people to make more use of stealth instead of completing every mission like a tank. It's difficult to find the right balance between giving people a choice to approach missions how they want AND make sure the presence of stealth remains relevant.

VoldR
02-05-2016, 10:57 PM
In Unity the stealth system is useless seeing as (when it works) moving from cover to cover cannot be done without leaving cover which defeats the entire purpose.
U mean when he's rolling to the next cover?

Isn't that normal? U r exposed for a broef second. Almost any game with "swat turn" (splinter cell, deus ex: HR) have the same rule.



Or how about shooting an enemy with a beserk dart behind cover while his back is turned yet he manages to detect you instantly...
I always figured the direction the dart hits them is a big give away. That's why I don't shoot unless I got a wall to hide behind..


Lastly, you cannot make combat harder in order to encourage stealth, refer to AC as a 'stealth game' in interviews and then offer combat upgrades so that each player has a 'unique play style'. You're either a stealth game or you're not. Period.
nvr bothered with the upgrades, didn't like it in any games. Had my first robes till the end and only arno's rapier.

Also I only choose skills that gove me more things to do, rather then more health or dmg.
:)

VoldR
02-05-2016, 11:00 PM
There are still missions in every game where detection means instant desynch. AC2 had more of it because they wanted people to make more use of stealth instead of completing every mission like a tank. It's difficult to find the right balance between giving people a choice to approach missions how they want AND make sure the presence of stealth remains relevant.
Question, is running and stabbing undetected from point a to b considered stealth?

Xstantin
02-05-2016, 11:34 PM
There are still missions in every game where detection means instant desynch.

I thought Syndicate didn't have any, but I haven't played it as much, so I guess there was some point where the game kicked the player out.

Jessigirl2013
02-06-2016, 01:48 PM
Older games did have more common desynchronization for stealth, but those were often the only times stealth was a viable option (well, maybe not "only", but a large portion of them). Newer games often make stealth an option, but do not force it.

I wish they did force it though, stealth is what the Assassins were known for.:rolleyes:

I liked it in older ACs because it made it much more challenging.
I remember in ACII when you need to kill the 9 lieutenants undetected, I spend days doing those missions because IMO at the time they were so hard :rolleyes:
No other AC game had been a challenge since then.:(


I thought Syndicate didn't have any, but I haven't played it as much, so I guess there was some point where the game kicked the player out.

It has at least one... I just cant think of it now... Anyone remember?

I know the final mission was one of them, as Evie you couldn't be detected.:rolleyes:
But I cant think of another.
I'm glad the last mission had that as it made it a challenge.:rolleyes:

Ureh
02-07-2016, 01:12 AM
I wish they did force it though, stealth is what the Assassins were known for.:rolleyes:

I liked it in older ACs because it made it much more challenging.
I remember in ACII when you need to kill the 9 lieutenants undetected, I spend days doing those missions because IMO at the time they were so hard :rolleyes:
No other AC game had been a challenge since then.:(

It just means you're now a Master Assassin. You've perfected your skill.


Question, is running and stabbing undetected from point a to b considered stealth?

Yeah; sprinting, jumping, falling, pulling. The games consider it "high-profile" stealth.

Unless this is one of those trick questions like, "If no one heard the tree fall... Did it make a sound?" In which case someone might eventually find the body while you're still on the mission. Even if you manage to complete the mission completely undetected - without the body being found - eventually the person might have family, friends, co-workers that will miss that person.

Jessigirl2013
02-07-2016, 11:31 AM
It just means you're now a Master Assassin. You've perfected your skill.



Yeah; sprinting, jumping, falling, pulling. The games consider it "high-profile" stealth.

Unless this is one of those trick questions like, "If no one heard the tree fall... Did it make a sound?" In which case someone might eventually find the body while you're still on the mission. Even if you manage to complete the mission completely undetected - without the body being found - eventually the person might have family, friends, co-workers that will miss that person.

Haha...:rolleyes:

We need a AC with more difficulty :rolleyes: