PDA

View Full Version : ACU: leaps of faith - why break tradition?



Deezl-V
07-08-2014, 12:54 PM
This is something that really bothers me. Why is ubi decreasing the leaps of faiths? That was one thing that should NEVER change in any AC game. It should be the highest point and give you the full vision of all task/items in the area. Now they are making it any rooftop to see the tasks/items? And even worse, now just hold the parkour down button, run towards an edge and the game will auto go down any building? Are you for real ubi? C'mon. Why are you breaking tradition?

Every synchronization point should be a leap of faith and the ONLY place to see all the tasks/items icons pop up. I hope this is still the case. Will have to wait and see but I believe I heard that leaps will be far less, which I don't like.

SHADOWGARVIN
07-08-2014, 12:56 PM
This is something that really bothers me. Why is ubi decreasing the leaps of faiths? That was one thing that should NEVER change in any AC game. It should be the highest point and give you the full vision of all task/items in the area. Now they are making it any rooftop to see the tasks/items? And even worse, now just hold the parkour down button, run towards an edge and the game will auto go down any building? Are you for real ubi? C'mon. Why are you breaking tradition?

Every synchronization point should be a leap of faith and the ONLY place to see all the tasks/items icons pop up. I hope this is still the case. Will have to wait and see but I believe I heard that leaps will be far less, which I don't like.


Based on the interviews this is clearly not the case. You will be able to see the tasks from every rooftop.

itsamea-mario
07-08-2014, 12:58 PM
Meh, they were kinda cool, but to be honest, they were a bit silly.
Like why would there always be a hay bale below a tall building?
It hardly seems like the most sensible method of descent, especially given that a fall like that can't actually be survived.

SHADOWGARVIN
07-08-2014, 12:59 PM
Meh, they were kinda cool, but to be honest, they were a bit silly.
Like why would there always be a hay bale below a tall building?
It hardly seems like the most sensible method of descent, especially given that a fall like that can't actually be survived.

The hay bales were magical!

Jexx21
07-08-2014, 01:11 PM
Uh, there will probably still be viewpoints with leaps of faith.

What Unity is giving us isn't really anything new, we had it with the mini-map before, this time they're just putting the icons around the world itself.

Farlander1991
07-08-2014, 01:16 PM
It should be the highest point and give you the full vision of all task/items in the area.

ACIV is the only game in the series that does this, though. Hardly a tradition ;)

And there still will be synchronization points with leap of faiths (and most likely like in every AC game they will be related to opening up the areas on the map screen).

Jexx21
07-08-2014, 01:25 PM
maybe you only get the high ground feature in areas you synchronized in?

maybe it'll be like Watch Dogs where viewpoints unlock collectibles or small side missions?

I actually really like the first idea, because it implies that Arno has studied the area from on high up and thus can get a proper bearing from that knowledge on the rooftops.

Dag_B
07-08-2014, 01:31 PM
I like the idea to parkour down better that leaps of faith everywhere. I think they will be even more impressive when used with caution and when they are placed carefully in important places. It's also good that you will be able to get down on almost every point and do not have to look for the next leap-spot or hammer the grap button when falling down.

For the icons:
I imagine it as Jexx says:
You synchronize an area and from then on you will get the items even from lower positions. I doubt that synchronization will become meaningless.

marvelfannumber
07-08-2014, 01:46 PM
Why break tradition? Because variety is the spice of life (especially in annual series)

Plus the hay bales as said earlier here, were kind of silly.

Jexx21
07-08-2014, 01:50 PM
I would never support the removal of the leap of faith. It's too iconic to remove, unless you're playing as a Templar.

Shahkulu101
07-08-2014, 02:14 PM
I hope there is a change of heart and they decide to remove leaps of faith after all. They were only animus trickery that allowed you to get down buildings easier, now with controlled descent we don't need them.

Jexx21
07-08-2014, 02:19 PM
If they ever decide to completely remove something as iconic as that I will be greatly disappointed.

Farlander1991
07-08-2014, 02:27 PM
They were only animus trickery that allowed you to get down buildings easier

Was that mentioned anywhere in particular? The pigeons and abundance of hay stacks - yes, but not the act of Leap of Faith itself.
Because in AC1 we've got three Assassins perform leap of faiths simultaneously by Al-Mualim's command, and one of them breaks his leg. Doesn't seem like Animus trickery.
We have the whole initiation into the Brotherhood in AC2 and ACB where every NPC character would perform a leap of faith, that was part of the ceremony.
Then we have Desmond who performed a leap of faith in the modern day outside of the walls of Monterrigioni.
And Connor doing a cutscene leap of faith when he signals to attack Fort George.

Leap of Faith is pretty much real.

SixKeys
07-08-2014, 02:34 PM
Leaps of faith haven't been removed, they're still in the game. They're simply no longer the only way to get down from a high place. Keeping things the same for years and years just for the sake of tradition is a bad idea. Even traditions need re-evaluation and refreshing sometimes. The lip scars and white robes were cute for a while, but hardly essential. I'm glad they've moved away from those. Leaps of faith are nice, but also extremely simplistic and limiting from a gameplay perspective. If they can be re-imagined in a way that's similar and equally fun, why not go for it?

Hans684
07-08-2014, 02:44 PM
Arno started the demo with a Leap Of Faith, he just didn't end at a stack of hay. It's still there and the tradition is expanded.

itsamea-mario
07-08-2014, 03:12 PM
ACIV is the only game in the series that does this, though. Hardly a tradition ;)

And there still will be synchronization points with leap of faiths (and most likely like in every AC game they will be related to opening up the areas on the map screen).

I think in AC1, if you climbed the really really tall buildings, like the cathedral in Acre and whatever the one in Damascus was called, it revealed all the missions and what not.

SixKeys
07-08-2014, 03:29 PM
I think in AC1, if you climbed the really really tall buildings, like the cathedral in Acre and whatever the one in Damascus was called, it revealed all the missions and what not.

No, it didn't.

Farlander1991
07-08-2014, 03:30 PM
I think in AC1, if you climbed the really really tall buildings, like the cathedral in Acre and whatever the one in Damascus was called, it revealed all the missions and what not.

No, AC1 didn't have anything shown on screen like AC4 does (and like ACU will have on rooftops), even on high buildings. They all just revealed parts of the map and any mission icons on the map that were in the revealed section.

itsamea-mario
07-08-2014, 03:34 PM
No, it didn't.

I'm like some percent sure the tallest buildings revealed at least most of the investigations on the map.

Jexx21
07-08-2014, 03:46 PM
Yes, but all the games did that...

Also, Hans, I'm not sure I count the base jump as the leap of faith... and I'm not against having less leaps of faith, that I'm okay with and actually support, but removing the leap of faith as a mechanic entirely is something I find that should never be done, due to the strong iconography behind it.

Dev_Anj
07-08-2014, 04:15 PM
You know, I think stunts are more effective when used moderately. If they are used too much, the initial amazement wears off, and they start to feel silly.

Same thing with the leaps of faith. In the first game, they were handled fine (although putting in haybales for every viewpoint was too convenient) but after that they just got overused to the point that they felt more silly than iconic. So reducing their frequency isn't a bad idea.

Though it doesn't seem that you'll be stopped from performing leaps of faith, and I think it might have advantages over the controlled descent in the final game, which would be good.

NondairyGold
07-08-2014, 05:18 PM
The leap of faith is still in there, it's just not as prevalent as it used to be. I'm guessing it's probably going to be an achievement to do one! As for Arno's base jump flip catch(!) it's a parkour upgrade on the skill tree, you have to earn it. Hopefully there'll be a variety of different moves we can "learn".

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 06:10 PM
wait until we see what sync points unlock before you complain about them not being cared about any more.

Also, blindly adhering to tradition is NOT what the AC series needs right now. It needs a serious look at what works, what doesn't, and what needs to be changed. that's what Unity's about, from what we know.

Desynchs during stealth sequences are a tradition too, one that no-one should be asking to come back.

Synch points should be a fun challenge you want to conquer, and everest to be climbed. not an uber important system that penalizes your navigational ability heavily if you don't engage with it. this is just one of the many changes that they need to bring back people they've lost by having the basic structure of their game stay so similar for so long, and how to impress new players who are already used to/asking for systems that feel freer and less constricting.

Sushiglutton
07-08-2014, 06:52 PM
Because controlled descent looks much cooler! AC has always been about high-resolution climbing (lots of grips). Controlled descent has more grips while still remaining real fast. It's a pretty awesome feature. And they can create the city layout with more freedom which will make it even more beautiful (less pigeon poo lol).

Leap of faith should be reserved for a couple of epic moments imo.

That the devs are rethinking some things that are taken for granted is somethimg they should be commended for imo.

Dome500
07-08-2014, 06:57 PM
Because tradition is not always good.
Think about it.

If you keep too many traditional elements and do not restrict them to the core ones you end up having 50 - 80% of the same game every time. The mechanics will grow old, the feeling will grow old and the game will become less interesting despite changing settings and stories.

I mean, it's not like they REMOVED the haystacks and leap of faiths completely, they just REDUCED them, that way they will feel more UNIQUE and I think that is only good especially if it means adding great additional and FRESH mechanics to the table.

My opinion.

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 07:20 PM
Because tradition is not always good.
Think about it.

If you keep too many traditional elements and do not restrict them to the core ones you end up having 50 - 80% of the same game every time. The mechanics will grow old, the feeling will grow old and the game will become less interesting despite changing settings and stories.

I mean, it's not like they REMOVED the haystacks and leap of faiths completely, they just REDUCED them, that way they will feel more UNIQUE and I think that is only good especially if it means adding great additional and FRESH mechanics to the table.

My opinion.
Exactly. horrible boss fights at the end of the game are an AC tradition, too :P

JustPlainQuirky
07-08-2014, 07:24 PM
lol I don't even consider them boss fights.

Aside from Al Mualim, Rodrigo Borgia, and Washington in TOWK. Even then they were hilariously simplistic.

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 07:26 PM
lol I don't even consider them boss fights.

Aside from Al Mualim, Rodrigo Borgia, and Washington in TOWK. Even then they were hilariously simplistic.
Eh, I thought Rodrigo's was pretty awful. at least the first part, I'm OK with beating up a glow-pope.

Al Mualim and TOKW Washington were definitely the best bossfights in terms of using actual non-combat gameplay to defeat them.

ShoryukenMan
07-08-2014, 08:09 PM
As long as they aren't removed entirely, then I'm fine with them being reduced.

Leaps of faith are still going to be the fastest way to get to the ground.

Also, every time I think of tradition being broken, I think of Resident Evil and what it's become... so I'm afraid of change.

Not saying that AC will suffer the same fate.

Hans684
07-08-2014, 08:36 PM
Also, Hans, I'm not sure I count the base jump as the leap of faith...

*Hannibal

Every leap starts with a base jump, with traditional leaps we end at a stack of hay. In Unity the same leap is used, it's just that the stack of hay isn't needed.

JustPlainQuirky
07-08-2014, 08:45 PM
Eh, I thought Rodrigo's was pretty awful. at least the first part, I'm OK with beating up a glow-pope.

Al Mualim and TOKW Washington were definitely the best bossfights in terms of using actual non-combat gameplay to defeat them.

Al Mualim's did hold a bit of suspense but it was still pure punch and stab.

TOKW 's involved more stratedgy but it got super repetative.

AC is kind of hard to come up with a good boss fight for.

...

challenge accepted :rolleyes:

ShoryukenMan
07-08-2014, 08:58 PM
Let Platinum Games make the final boss for every AC game from now on.

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 09:30 PM
*Hannibal

Every leap starts with a base jump, with traditional leaps we end at a stack of hay. In Unity the same leap is used, it's just that the stack of hay isn't needed.
you know what, in some ways I agree. it stands to reason that the leap of faith is just the start, if you end up landing in a hay bale or grabbing something to slow your fall, it's all just a different version of the same concept of trusting you'll find a way.

Final boss fight should be a really good assassination mission with many ways of completing. maybe set in a weird TWCB place, but an assassination mission nonetheless.

Jexx21
07-08-2014, 09:53 PM
note that I'm not against controlled descent, as I like that very much, I'm just against removing the leap of faith entirely.

Hell, you can only have 3 view points with leaps of faith in the game and I'd be fine, as long as those 3 view points are important structures, but I'm a fan of strong iconography... if you couldn't tell.

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 09:57 PM
I'm a fan of the sync thing too, but yeah, you've got to make it feel like it matters. too much, and it starts to feel like a joke more than a cool moment. I remember full-syncing AC2. all those synchronizations, it gave me a headache.

Jackburns14
07-08-2014, 10:11 PM
This is something that really bothers me. Why is ubi decreasing the leaps of faiths? That was one thing that should NEVER change in any AC game. It should be the highest point and give you the full vision of all task/items in the area. Now they are making it any rooftop to see the tasks/items? And even worse, now just hold the parkour down button, run towards an edge and the game will auto go down any building? Are you for real ubi? C'mon. Why are you breaking tradition?

Every synchronization point should be a leap of faith and the ONLY place to see all the tasks/items icons pop up. I hope this is still the case. Will have to wait and see but I believe I heard that leaps will be far less, which I don't like.

In my opinion, it's a welcome change. I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the leap of faith ability altogether ( they aren't by the way). I like that they are trying new things and innovating on the assassin's creed formula. The parkour down function is optional, if you want you can do a leap of faith off of a building where a haystack is located. What it comes down to is, no one is forcing you to parkour down, so do it if you want or just don't.

Calvarok
07-08-2014, 10:15 PM
In my opinion, it's a welcome change. I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the leap of faith ability altogether ( they aren't by the way). I like that they are trying new things and innovating on the assassin's creed formula. The parkour down function is optional, if you want you can do a leap of faith off of a building where a haystack is located. What it comes down to is, no one is forcing you to parkour down, so do it if you want or just don't.
(actually they're reducing the number of places that have leaps of faith so you'll have to parkour down pretty often)

EmbodyingSeven5
07-09-2014, 12:27 AM
maybe they should mix up the hay bale idea and turn it into fertilizer carts. more likely to cushion your fall anyway

LoyalACFan
07-09-2014, 12:42 AM
"Why break tradition" is one of my least favorite phrases in the English language. Yeah, why change anything, let's just let the series stagnate and retread the same exact gameplay in every title... :rolleyes:

SixKeys
07-09-2014, 01:33 AM
maybe they should mix up the hay bale idea and turn it into fertilizer carts. more likely to cushion your fall anyway

In one AC2 demo they actually had fish carts. Wonder why they got rid of those?

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 01:42 AM
what about jello carts

I-Like-Pie45
07-09-2014, 01:52 AM
or trampolines

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 01:53 AM
"Why break tradition" is one of my least favorite phrases in the English language. Yeah, why change anything, let's just let the series stagnate and retread the same exact gameplay in every title... :rolleyes:
Assassin's Creed is an attempt to combine many elements of different genres, (which themselves are not perfected), into one cohesive whole, guided by the concept of being a historical hitman, and three core pillars of gameplay. It's not a surprise that it's not perfect. But Ubisoft can't ever take that pretty unique premise to mean that they can stop trying to improve and rethink how to make this series better.

Already games like Shadow of Mordor are taking their own approach to executing a similar concept, but in their own way, with fresh ideas and a Nemesis system that sounds really unique, complex, and interesting. Ubisoft doesn't need to copy that wholesale, but they need to keep improving and innovating on their own systems, revamping and improving the mechanics you use to interact with those systems, and also work to take the narrative in exciting new directions that serve both the gameplay and storytelling well.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 01:58 AM
But that doesn't mean that they should completely remove the iconic leap of faith :P

I feel like the leap of faith is as synonymous with Assassins as the hidden blade, more so than the hoods, the beaked hoods, or the beaked hats.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 02:12 AM
But that doesn't mean that they should completely remove the iconic leap of faith :P

I feel like the leap of faith is as synonymous with Assassins as the hidden blade, more so than the hoods, the beaked hoods, or the beaked hats.
wasn't arguing about that, just talking about people who think the series is perfect and should never change anything.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 02:20 AM
Oh I definitely don't think that :P

I still think that the parkour system should implement things that break or things that you can't jump on or else you'll fall through (I'm thinking market stands covered by tarps, or tents).

SixKeys
07-09-2014, 02:25 AM
Oh I definitely don't think that :P

I still think that the parkour system should implement things that break or things that you can't jump on or else you'll fall through (I'm thinking market stands covered by tarps, or tents).

That would get either very annoying or redundant fast. The breakable objects would most likely be easily identifiable on some level, so even if you fell for them the first few times, sooner or later players would learn to avoid them. It just seems like it would make freerunning more of a chore for no good reason.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 02:29 AM
I never said they would have to be around that often, and you could implement a mechanic that allows you to avoid breakable objects in a way. Like the leap jump from AC2-ACR.

So it wouldn't be any more of a chore than having to find the correct way around a building w/o leap jump (before you get it) or using leap jump once you do have it like in AC2-ACR.

roostersrule2
07-09-2014, 02:52 AM
I would never support the removal of the leap of faith. It's too iconic to remove, unless you're playing as a Templar.Indeed.

Hoods, Hidden Blades and Leaps if Faith should be in every AC game.

Ureh
07-09-2014, 03:24 AM
Because the hay bales will be on fire during all the riots.

GreySkellig
07-09-2014, 04:29 AM
In related discussion, I'm still hoping "High Ground" is a feature we trigger, rather than one which spontaneously pops up when you hold still on a roof's peak. It'll get annoying fast otherwise. Not to mention ruin my serene scenic AC moments.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 06:07 AM
In related discussion, I'm still hoping "High Ground" is a feature we trigger, rather than one which spontaneously pops up when you hold still on a roof's peak. It'll get annoying fast otherwise. Not to mention ruin my serene scenic AC moments.
the way it was shown in the singleplayer trailer I bet it will at the very least pop up and need to be dismissed each time. which isn't really ideal, I guess, but if it only came on with a button press that required to to be at a certain height, people would forget about it, I think. IMO it's no more annoying than markers that appear over hire-groups' heads. but ideally the UI would have an option to turn it off.

Either way, the people who hate the fact that AC has so much side content everywhere and just want to play the main story are going to really hate this feature, I bet.

I mean, I'm not one of those people, not really. but I hope that all the side content is quality over quantity. Black Flag gives me high hopes on that front, except the animus fragments. not a single ****ing reward besides completing the associated challenge.

but seriously, it's going to take a really high bar of quality/fun in the side content AND story to win over people who feel like this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119955508&postcount=148 about AC.

side content should add to the game but not ever feel like it gets in the way.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 06:48 AM
High ground doesn't show the side content though, it just shows things that you can take advantage of in the environment

I also think it will be activated by a button press.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 06:58 AM
High ground doesn't show the side content though, it just shows things that you can take advantage of in the environment

I also think it will be activated by a button press.
those icons looked like side mission start points, not shopkeepers or factions.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 06:59 AM
Well, the way it's been described in interviews is that it's supposed to head to things like social clubs, cafes, etc. and not side missions.

EDIT:

These don't look like side missions (or at least most of them don't)

http://i.imgur.com/SXtUaft.jpg

travilanche
07-09-2014, 07:11 AM
A couple of those look like they could be faction missions. And possibly an assassination contract.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 07:13 AM
I see contracts, co-op missions, fast travel points, catacombs entrances, faction missions, and only one thing that looks like a shop icon.

I do like that they show up as pillars of light, though. wonder if these icons don't show up on the mini-map, or if you even have a mini-map?

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 07:14 AM
To me, it looks like it's showing a social club, two thief hangouts, a cafe, a catacombs entrance or a lift, a bank, a viewpoint, a lift, and possibly some sort of mission on the left-most side with the sun thing.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 07:16 AM
nevermind those things aren't lifts those are where the high-ground thing activate. It isn't a button but it activates if you're near the high ground feature thing on rooftops.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 07:23 AM
Hmm, I wonder why in the demo in question, it doesn't activate when he's on the roof stalking his target near the end? this kinda makes me think that on roofs a button prompt lights up that allows you to trigger high ground.

Ureh
07-09-2014, 07:24 AM
That looks like a co-op mission on the right, the one with the two heads. Cause the Austrian Audacity mission had the same icon right?

Btw, how come the co-op mission in the tavern didn't show up in the high ground feature?

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 07:28 AM
Hmm, I wonder why in the demo in question, it doesn't activate when he's on the roof stalking his target near the end? this kinda makes me think that on roofs a button prompt lights up that allows you to trigger high ground.

this, I think this is what happens.

We'll see when we get a HUD demo, which will happen eventually.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 07:37 AM
That looks like a co-op mission on the right, the one with the two heads. Cause the Austrian Audacity mission had the same icon right?

Btw, how come the co-op mission in the tavern didn't show up in the high ground feature?
I dunno, maybe the high ground system isn't actually properly implemented in the game yet, and that part of the demo was just a scripted thing that only worked in that one spot.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 07:38 AM
I actually wouldn't really care if the high ground system was removed in the final product, it isn't something I care about that much.

I cared more about AC3 removing frozen lakes.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 08:01 AM
AC3 spent waaay too much time on stuff like frozen lakes and letting you free-run on moving object, and not enough on what would make up the majority of the player's gameplay experience :/

I don't think it turned out terrible, but it could have used more time to polish, as Alex Hutchinson himself said in that far cry interview

Dome500
07-09-2014, 04:36 PM
the way it was shown in the singleplayer trailer I bet it will at the very least pop up and need to be dismissed each time. which isn't really ideal, I guess, but if it only came on with a button press that required to to be at a certain height, people would forget about it, I think. IMO it's no more annoying than markers that appear over hire-groups' heads. but ideally the UI would have an option to turn it off.

Either way, the people who hate the fact that AC has so much side content everywhere and just want to play the main story are going to really hate this feature, I bet.

I mean, I'm not one of those people, not really. but I hope that all the side content is quality over quantity. Black Flag gives me high hopes on that front, except the animus fragments. not a single ****ing reward besides completing the associated challenge.

but seriously, it's going to take a really high bar of quality/fun in the side content AND story to win over people who feel like this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119955508&postcount=148 about AC.

side content should add to the game but not ever feel like it gets in the way.

Yeah, I also hope that we can turn it off in the HUD menu.

As for the side content, I always say: Make the side content like a slightly smaller main mission. Interesting unique story, an interesting area and event.
I think what I like to call it is campaign.
It's like in strategy games. I'd like there to be a main missions story/campaign, and then there is the Side Mission (+Optional Coop) Campagin, both tell separate stories lossely connected and playing at the same time, but both are worth your while. That is what I'd like.

Some might be preparations for a main mission (getting more info), others might be an independent mission having nothing to do with the main story itself but only with the Assassins or with Arno. Smaller problems, smaller stories, smaller events, but all interesting.

That would be ideal.

roostersrule2
07-09-2014, 04:39 PM
I'd like side missions and side quests.

Quests are like branching side missions, like the RDR strangers or the Thieves Guild in Skyrim, they're little stories on their own.

Where as side missions are just one offs, Assassination contracts and what not.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 07:40 PM
it would be cool if the assassinations were all connected. I mean, most of the targets will be templars, why not let you uncover a plot by the end, and have the last target be the ringleader, though not the absolute top dog parisan templar.

Ureh
07-09-2014, 09:53 PM
Yea that would be nice if we could customise the map and/or the high ground feature. I like the ones in ACB/R when we could choose which icons to appear.

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 10:00 PM
It's cool to see all the things that seem like spiritual successor to ideas from Revelations that are in Unity. You can really tell that Alexandre has a hand in making this game. I mean, Revelation's combat wasn't super hard, but it was a lot more difficult than any of the AC games besides probably AC1. And the whole idea of pillars of light showing up above points of interest was kinda mirrored in Revelations: if you set an objective marker and turned on eagle vision, you saw the marker show up as a giant pillar of light. So it was a way to play without a HUD.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Eh, ACR's combat was artificially difficult imo, because the janissaries were just time consuming and annoying, not necessarily actually difficult to beat

Calvarok
07-09-2014, 10:14 PM
Eh, ACR's combat was artificially difficult imo, because the janissaries were just time consuming and annoying, not necessarily actually difficult to beat
I agree, but it was still an attempt to make it more difficult. ACU's approach sounds like a better attempt to accomplish the same goal.

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 11:31 PM
From the sounds of it, ACU is like the fix of AC1 combat that's long overdue. Well, in principle at the least.

Here's the thing. AC1 combat was awesome. The AI could be better, but you didn't have to do much to make it better. The most important thing would be to fix the dominant counter-attack strategy (which ACU, btw, does). But instead, in each consecutive game we had a combat system advancement that would be broken by smth, and at the same time didn't fix the core issue and just made it worse.

AC2. Different enemy archetypes that have to be dealt with a bit differently, and weapons that can't be countered by other weapons (like, great swords can't be countered by normal ones, for example). Awesome, right? Well, except hidden blade. That **** can counter EVERYTHING and one hit kill pretty much everything. Oh, and the counter attack is still there, but the counter windows are larger now. ... wait, what?!

ACB. Okay, chance to fix things. The archetypes have become trickier, like you have to use taunt now on brutes, for example, so it's all well and good and... wtf?!?!?!?! Kill streaks?!?!?! Which are all one hit kill everything?!?!?!?! And they're triggered by counter-attack as well?!?!?!?! Whyyyyyy.

ACR. Okay, we have all these archetypes that have to be dealt with in a different way. But it's not like it ****ing matters because kill streaks. Let's just add somebody that can't be one-hit killed with kill streaks. Whatever.

Jexx21
07-09-2014, 11:42 PM
I actually liked kill streaks.

They fixed AC2's terrible combat anyway.

Farlander1991
07-09-2014, 11:46 PM
I actually liked kill streaks.

I don't mind their existence in principle, but I do mind their execution in ACB and ACR especially (they're better done in AC3/AC4). When you've got a dominant combat strategy and add ANOTHER dominant combat strategy that works incredible well in tandem... All those weapons, moves, stats, equipment, pretty much everything becomes useless.

Calvarok
07-10-2014, 04:06 AM
I actually liked kill streaks.

They fixed AC2's terrible combat anyway.
I think overall AC2's combat was more fun than brotherhood's.

My favorite combat overall is AC3, because while you can take down tons of dudes, it has a nice flowing feeling and you have to remember the rock-paper-scissors mechanics of each enemy. but that kinda meant that fighting a group of the lower level enemy types wasn't as interesting as fighting the mixed groups.

Also it got rid of the hard divide between "in combat" and "out of combat". making it contextual was so much better and led to so many less control-mess-up situations.

I agree that they've never really pushed the combat forward, more like mostly bolted things onto the sides. but it wasn't a total waste of time, a few good things came out of the process. hopefully Unity turns it into something that genuinely has more depth.

Dome500
07-10-2014, 05:58 PM
Yeah I also think AC2s combat despite taking long was better than AC1s or ACBs combat due to the fact that enemies actually "blocked" your attacks and that you had to fight hard for a kill. No kill streaks either so that was good.

The problem is whenever they tried combat they either artificially made it way too easy or tried to make it difficult in an artificial way which more led to annoyance than satisfaction.

In the end ACU sounds like the best concept so far. Combining the "different approaches for different archetypes" concept which was refined from AC2, over ACB, ACR and AC3 up to AC4 with a more sophisticated system of "heavy blow", "light blow" (a la Witcher 2), "dodge" and "parry" as well s removing the way too easy auto-one-klick-counter sounds like the best idea so far.

Calvarok
07-10-2014, 07:51 PM
yeah, I really like the idea of a system optimized for 1v1, which requires you to spread yourself more and more thin and thus be less effective depending on how many enemies you're fighting.

The way they described fighting a large group of enemies was that you'd have to always be moving around and keeping each one off balance through various means, and whittle down their health that way. Less like trading up partners in a ballroom dance, more like surviving a mosh pit.