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Deezl-V
07-02-2014, 02:37 PM
Hi all. Long time visitor but first time poster.

This is an issue that has hit me a little irked at ubi. It's about Arno vs many enemies. I'm all for a more difficult and skilled combat system but I think ubi is forgetting one thing, "long time highly skilled trained assassin". I've read that Arno will face difficulties if confronted by 5 enemies or more (if that's number is correct), and I don't think this should be because as I just stated, assassins are long time highly skilled trained people. Also ubi states that Arno is the most dangerous and most skilled assassin of them all yet can't take on 5 enemies at once? Look back at ACR's trailer. Ezio faces a barrage of enemies and kicks their butt. Dodges, counters, attacks. He does it with such fluidity and simplicity based on skills.

So if Arno is the most dangerous and most skilled assassin ever made yet can't take on a barrage of enemies like 40 or 50 yr old Ezio did in ACR trailer, then how is that statement true? I think they should make it where more enemies should attack at once, not waiting for one another to move. Give the player control and skill to counter with the block button and counter with an attack. It should be more about timing than anything. There should be instances of being surrounded by like 3 guards with swords that attack you all at once so your timing would have to either dodge the attacks or block/parry them. Also the L stick should come more into play too in this instance that you need to not only time your block/parry press but also the direction in which you want to block first.

It shouldn't be this difficult for a trained assassin to be weary about a few enemies.
Does that really sound like an assassin? It sounds more like a hitman, which it shouldn't be. AC should give us that feel of a super hero or such that we feel almost invincible but I'm a realistic way by putting the skill in the players hands with the controller and not some artificial situation.

Hope you guys understand what I mean and would like to hear some thoughts.

This should be a good introductory thread for myself.

m4r-k7
07-02-2014, 02:55 PM
I think they are trying to make it realistic. For example, how ever skilled you are, you would never be able to kill like 5 enemies. In ACR the combat system was just blocking the whole time and the trailer was just showing how badass Ezio was. Realistically, you would never be able to take on all those enemies as they would all attack you at once, hence what AC Unity is going for. Arno is deadly, but in a realistic way, meaning he can kill any guards on a 1 on 1 fight as he is skilled, but he will not be able to beat like 5 enemies quickly like Ezio, Connor and Edward did. They are going for more realism in the combat (using stealth more) AC R kinda had unrealistic combat along with AC 3 and AC 4 where you could murder 100s of enemies with ease.

Dag_B
07-02-2014, 03:00 PM
Assassins should be trained in avoiding enemys and being sneaky, not in the art of brutes. They should be able to reach their goal without their enemies knowing, they are even coming. Ideally, except for a dead body there should stay no hints that they were ever there.
So personally I find it very fitting that an assassin might get into trouble when outnumbered - they do not train for those situations, they train how to avoid those in the first place.

SixKeys
07-02-2014, 03:13 PM
Assassins should be trained in avoiding enemys and being sneaky, not in the art of brutes. They should be able to reach their goal without their enemies knowing, they are even coming. Ideally, except for a dead body there should stay no hints that they were ever there.
So personally I find it very fitting that an assassin might get into trouble when outnumbered - they do not train for those situations, they train how to avoid those in the first place.

Not entirely true. This is where the whole "freedom of playstyle" comes into question. Uncle Mario was an assassin and he was the leader of a bunch of mercenary brutes. Bartolomeo was an assassin and his approach to any situation was anything but subtle. Even in AltaÔr's time assassinations were about making a public statement, to make your enemy know their days were numbered by making a big scene in broad daylight.

I'm a stealth fan myself and I'm happy they're making/claiming to make stealth harder, because it should be. You should be free to engage in combat, but be aware that it's a much riskier approach. The risk of stealth should be that your target may escape if you fail, and the risk of combat should be that you yourself may get killed. An assassin should be trained for both situations, but they should be allowed to choose their approach.

GunnerGalactico
07-02-2014, 03:21 PM
I partially agree with the OP. Arno strikes me as the type of Assassin that is more of a discreet, silent killer... rather than a one man army. Unity will make the stealth aspect of the game their primary focus. I understand that they are making the combat more realistic, but I'm not so thrillled about the idea that more than 5 enemies will be more than a handful for Arno to handle. If it were 10 enemies or more, then it is quite understandable. An Assassin should at least be more than capable of taking on 5 enemies.

Philliesfan377
07-02-2014, 03:27 PM
I agree OP. It feels like the game will penalize you for failing stealth and getting into combat. They took the Bastille in the E3 trailer and that was most certainly more than five guys. Of course that claim could be a bit exaggerated,.

Deezl-V
07-02-2014, 03:27 PM
Exactly what sixkeys is saying. I should still have the skill to fight it out if I have too. Just because he's an assassin, it shouldn't limit him to just stealth. I mean there's the game Hitman if you want true assassinations. But ac is about the super hero like concept. But that's where the skill of the user should be used by timing of doges and blocks and attacks. Otherwise let's just get sniper rifles and make it easy.

This is a video game and should be about fun but the fun should come into the hands of the user, not a cheap and boring easy combat system like before. Like I said, I'm all for a more difficult combat system, but make it that you, the user, needs to have quick button presses from timing than anything and add the realism of getting stabbed once or twice to really affect you. Slow you down in attacking, dodging and even running away and climbing. Maybe even get killed if you get shot.

It should really be about the players' skill than the game saying this or that based on situation. Just like street fighter, it's not a one button press to do super moves, it's a combination of directions and buttons. That's where the true elite fighters should have the ability to fight against many enemies. Skill of the user, not of the game giving it to you.

That's just my thoughts on it. I think this would make the game more realistic too but in a more fun way.

steveeire
07-02-2014, 03:28 PM
There are better ways to make the player choose stealth rather then only removing the counter button, I fear that when when do get into a inescapable combat situation that the combat won't be as fluid as it was previously. I really hope it not like AC1's combat which could make one fall asleep.

LoyalACFan
07-02-2014, 03:47 PM
I'm convinced that the "5 enemies and you're dead" thing was a VERY conservative estimate designed to satiate those among us who say the combat is way too easy (which it is). I'm sure I'll be carving my way through a dozen guards without issue after I've gotten the hang of the new combat. Which is totally fine, just as long as it's no longer as brain-dead easy as it has been since Brotherhood.

rob.davies2014
07-02-2014, 03:56 PM
I think Ubi made the right decision. It ads the long-awaited, much-needed challenge that combat has been lacking. It also makes it more realistic.

Aphex_Tim
07-02-2014, 03:58 PM
Guards and soldiers are trained as well you know.

GreySkellig
07-02-2014, 03:59 PM
I am inclined to agree with LoyalACFan. While the new combat may be more challenging (and that's a good thing), and hopefully we won't be able to massacre scores of helpless guards like we could in previous games, I highly doubt the "over 5 and you're dead" claims. This would simply not make for fun combat, and I would be surprised if Arno's combat ability was nerfed so heavily.

Dag_B
07-02-2014, 04:01 PM
Not entirely true. This is where the whole "freedom of playstyle" comes into question. Uncle Mario was an assassin and he was the leader of a bunch of mercenary brutes. Bartolomeo was an assassin and his approach to any situation was anything but subtle. Even in AltaÔr's time assassinations were about making a public statement, to make your enemy know their days were numbered by making a big scene in broad daylight.

I'm a stealth fan myself and I'm happy they're making/claiming to make stealth harder, because it should be. You should be free to engage in combat, but be aware that it's a much riskier approach. The risk of stealth should be that your target may escape if you fail, and the risk of combat should be that you yourself may get killed. An assassin should be trained for both situations, but they should be allowed to choose their approach.
But he is and you can go into combat, if he does only get into trouble when it comes to five or more enemies. Arno will not have problems with few enemies and we do not know for sure that five enemies will be unsolvable (it was just stated, that you might have problems).

m4r-k7
07-02-2014, 04:02 PM
If you look in the original single player demo at the conference (not the one they uploaded with commentary on youtube) but the one they showed during the Ubi conference, Arno took on 4 guards and killed them very quickly so I don't think you will die with 5 enemies. They were saying that lets say there are 4 enemies who are all trying to kill you together and then theres a rifleman also shooting at you, then it gets hard. I hope the rifleman don't automatically hit you. In AC 4 they ALWAYS hit you unless you took a human shield or hid behind something which is unrealistic as those rifles were very inaccurate.

GreySkellig
07-02-2014, 04:04 PM
Guards and soldiers are trained as well you know.

Actually, in most hand-to-hand confrontations, anyone but the most skilled has about a 50% chance of survival--and that declines greatly if you're facing a hardened killer (like an Assassin). Whether the training guards receive is particularly rigorous or not, facing a skilled and lethal opponent (likely for the first time, since veteran troops get taken on campaign, not left at home) would be a terminal decision for most guards. There definitely is a point where numbers become overwhelming, but I would figure 10 guards is a more reasonable point than 5. The gameplay we've seen so far mostly shows guards in groups of 5 or so. Given that distribution of guards, being overwhelmed by 5 would rule out combat in most scenarios.

EVA Spartan 317
07-02-2014, 04:06 PM
Exactly what sixkeys is saying. I should still have the skill to fight it out if I have too. Just because he's an assassin, it shouldn't limit him to just stealth. I mean there's the game Hitman if you want true assassinations. But ac is about the super hero like concept. But that's where the skill of the user should be used by timing of doges and blocks and attacks. Otherwise let's just get sniper rifles and make it easy.

This is a video game and should be about fun but the fun should come into the hands of the user, not a cheap and boring easy combat system like before. Like I said, I'm all for a more difficult combat system, but make it that you, the user, needs to have quick button presses from timing than anything and add the realism of getting stabbed once or twice to really affect you. Slow you down in attacking, dodging and even running away and climbing. Maybe even get killed if you get shot.

It should really be about the players' skill than the game saying this or that based on situation. Just like street fighter, it's not a one button press to do super moves, it's a combination of directions and buttons. That's where the true elite fighters should have the ability to fight against many enemies. Skill of the user, not of the game giving it to you.

That's just my thoughts on it. I think this would make the game more realistic too but in a more fun way.

Well, the Hitman has it's ability to go in guns blazing against twenty guards and survive with ease.
When Absolution was free on Xbox Live I was just going for the story and was never stealthy. Just got myself a machine gun or shotgun and took them out in rows.

Back to topic: I agree with the OP. I hope it won't be like that when you are detected a bunch of gurads come out of nowhere and you will not have a slightly chance to survive and end up desynchronized just like when you are getting detected in a mission where you are auto-desynchronized by being detected.

Megas_Doux
07-02-2014, 04:07 PM
I think Ubi made the right decision. It ads the long-awaited, much-needed challenge that combat has been lacking. It also makes it more realistic.

Until I play the game MYSELF, I will take everything with a grain of salt.

LoyalACFan
07-02-2014, 04:08 PM
Just throwing this out there as well; Arno supposedly joined the Assassins in 1789. He's still kind of a noob. So having to practice your fighting skills make sense, unlike Ezio and Connor who were magically the best fighters ever as soon as they picked up a sword.

GreySkellig
07-02-2014, 04:09 PM
But he is and you can go into combat, if he does only get into trouble when it comes to five or more enemies. Arno will not have problems with few enemies and we do not know for sure that five enemies will be unsolvable (it was just stated, that you might have problems).

Wasn't Amancio's phrasing regarding 5 or more guards "you're going to die"?

GreySkellig
07-02-2014, 04:12 PM
Just throwing this out there as well; Arno supposedly joined the Assassins in 1789. He's still kind of a noob. So having to practice your fighting skills make sense, unlike Ezio and Connor who were magically the best fighters ever as soon as they picked up a sword.

IF it's a matter of developing your timing, and acquiring skills (both as a gamer and in the skill progression) to eventually take on larger numbers of guards, then I'm all for it. And I could see that being the case, as in the commented demo Amancio remarks regarding Protectors "We're not strong enough to take them on yet."

It would certainly be nice for both player and character to have a learning curve. In ACIV, I was already so familiar with the combat that I was slaughtering dozens of guards within minutes of firing up the game.

LoyalACFan
07-02-2014, 04:16 PM
IF it's a matter of developing your timing, and acquiring skills (both as a gamer and in the skill progression) to eventually take on larger numbers of guards, then I'm all for it. And I could see that being the case, as in the commented demo Amancio remarks regarding Protectors "We're not strong enough to take them on yet."

It would certainly be nice for both player and character to have a learning curve. In ACIV, I was already so familiar with the combat that I was slaughtering dozens of guards within minutes of firing up the game.

Well yeah, I mean, difficulty has to be handled properly as well. They can't just throw in a bunch of cheap archetypes who can pull off moves you can't defend against at all and say "Here, it's more challenging now!"

GreySkellig
07-02-2014, 04:18 PM
I am a bit concerned about that--in the co-op demo, it appears the officer archetype has returned, with his oh-so-lovable "I can hit you six times in a row without you being able to block" move.

m4r-k7
07-02-2014, 04:23 PM
I am a bit concerned about that--in the co-op demo, it appears the officer archetype has returned, with his oh-so-lovable "I can hit you six times in a row without you being able to block" move.

I think that was just the player not blocking to show us that combat is harder. He could have dodged or parryed the attack.

LoyalACFan
07-02-2014, 04:31 PM
I am a bit concerned about that--in the co-op demo, it appears the officer archetype has returned, with his oh-so-lovable "I can hit you six times in a row without you being able to block" move.

I don't mind that, really. If you miss the first counter window, I'm OK with taking successive damage from an officer. He looked pretty easy to kill though IMO.

Ureh
07-02-2014, 04:39 PM
If you look in the original single player demo at the conference (not the one they uploaded with commentary on youtube) but the one they showed during the Ubi conference, Arno took on 4 guards and killed them very quickly so I don't think you will die with 5 enemies. They were saying that lets say there are 4 enemies who are all trying to kill you together and then theres a rifleman also shooting at you, then it gets hard. I hope the rifleman don't automatically hit you. In AC 4 they ALWAYS hit you unless you took a human shield or hid behind something which is unrealistic as those rifles were very inaccurate.

This one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5oCobhHCmw

3:30 but seems like he only fought three guards.

m4r-k7
07-02-2014, 04:42 PM
This one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5oCobhHCmw

3:30 but seems like he only fought three guards.

Oh yeah, sorry my mistake. Still, looked pretty easy. I think the forth guard glitched out lol

GunnerGalactico
07-02-2014, 05:03 PM
I think they've done away with the counter-kill system. Can't really remember which video it was, but during the interview, I heard they've added parries to the combat system. So far, I'm excited about that because I feel that the combat system needed a bit of change.

Dome500
07-02-2014, 05:05 PM
This is an issue that has hit me a little irked at ubi. It's about Arno vs many enemies. I'm all for a more difficult and skilled combat system but I think ubi is forgetting one thing, "long time highly skilled trained assassin". I've read that Arno will face difficulties if confronted by 5 enemies or more (if that's number is correct), and I don't think this should be because as I just stated, assassins are long time highly skilled trained people. Also ubi states that Arno is the most dangerous and most skilled assassin of them all yet can't take on 5 enemies at once? Look back at ACR's trailer. Ezio faces a barrage of enemies and kicks their butt. Dodges, counters, attacks. He does it with such fluidity and simplicity based on skills.

1. Ezio could kill 20 enemies, that was never "realistic" or "authentic" even if you consider Assassins being deadly killing machines. ACB and ACR combat was about the easiest and most watered down combat of all Assassins Creed.

2. I think it's only plausible. Imagine you are a highly trained fighter and you face 5 enemies. You have 1 (or 2) weapon(s). That IS difficult. They never said it will be IMPOSSIBLE. They only said it will be difficult. And IMO that is absolutely okay. That is what the franchise needs, more difficult fights.

There are good effects caused by a more difficult combat system:

1. The player has to learn, adapt and he has to get skilled
1a. Since it is Singleplayer and not mp the player will have as much time as he wants to learn the skills to fight many enemies
1b. I am also sure that the new "skill tree" of Arno will allow the player to give him some advantages in Combat once you have level up a bit. Also, clothing and weapons now have real stats. This means that you can be able to actively support your combat ability with that as well (probably)
2. It encourages stealth, which was always a pillar of Assassins Creed, but one that was ignored for a long time
3. It will encourage Cooperative play

All in all I think Arno will still be able to fight off 5 - 8 enemies, but only with very little health left and it will be a hard fight.
It's not different in reality, even if you are the most skilled fighter on the planet.
Assassins are no super-humans, they are just better fighters than most people.
But what makes the Assassin strong is deception, (social+LoS) stealth, tactical sense and the tools they have.

Finally we will have to be CLEVER to beat our enemies. And with the new mission-system we can even be CREATIVE while doing it :D


Not entirely true. This is where the whole "freedom of playstyle" comes into question. Uncle Mario was an assassin and he was the leader of a bunch of mercenary brutes. Bartolomeo was an assassin and his approach to any situation was anything but subtle. Even in AltaÔr's time assassinations were about making a public statement, to make your enemy know their days were numbered by making a big scene in broad daylight.

You are right about that but you miss one crucial point here:

The Assassins never showed themselves BEFORE the deed (ideally), and although they might have fought off 1 or 2 enemies they were always focused on disappearing and escaping as fast as possible after the deed.

The "public statement" was about instilling fear in the heart of their enemies, using deceptions and the illusion of their power ("they are everywhere" "he might be here and we would not even know it") to make it easier for them, to warn their enemies, to create panic.

They were always the ones in the dark, the blade in the crowd, the enemy who could be everywhere without anyone knowing.


I'm a stealth fan myself and I'm happy they're making/claiming to make stealth harder, because it should be. You should be free to engage in combat, but be aware that it's a much riskier approach. The risk of stealth should be that your target may escape if you fail, and the risk of combat should be that you yourself may get killed. An assassin should be trained for both situations, but they should be allowed to choose their approach.

Agreed but I think that this is what the new combat system is doing.
AC always had a lot of combat in it, more than Stealth actually.
I think now with combat being as difficult as stealth is (just in another way) they might create a balance here.
Like I said, combat will not be impossible, the difficulty comes from the enemies attacking more often at the same time and not being able to 1-hit-counter and having do dodge, parry and mix heavy with light blows. In the end it requires more skill and you can not kill as many enemies, but I think they will consider that and adjust enemy positions and density and behavior accordingly.


I agree OP. It feels like the game will penalize you for failing stealth and getting into combat. They took the Bastille in the E3 trailer and that was most certainly more than five guys. Of course that claim could be a bit exaggerated,.

But if you remember correctly they did use the crowd and the smoke bombs and their tools to their advantage. Clever combat instead of mindless combat is the key here IMO.

Deezl-V
07-02-2014, 05:08 PM
Well yeah, I mean, difficulty has to be handled properly as well. They can't just throw in a bunch of cheap archetypes who can pull off moves you can't defend against at all and say "Here, it's more challenging now!"

Bingo. That's what I'm talking about as well. The realistic side of it all should be the effects on your damage. Like I said, if you get stabbed once or twice, it should slow you down in blocking, attacking, dodging, running and climbing. In all ac's, your damage taken never affected these aspects. If it did, it would make the combat more fun and realistic.

Mr_Shade
07-02-2014, 05:28 PM
I think Ubi made the right decision. It ads the long-awaited, much-needed challenge that combat has been lacking. It also makes it more realistic.

Well people did request the combat changes etc


I guess it's one of those, time will tell - since once you guys play it - it might not be an 'issue' if you have the skill etc ;)

Jexx21
07-02-2014, 05:38 PM
I think that they're telling the truth about the "5 or more and you're dead thing" but that it's for the beginning of the game.

Jexx21
07-02-2014, 05:44 PM
I don't mind that, really. If you miss the first counter window, I'm OK with taking successive damage from an officer. He looked pretty easy to kill though IMO.

Uh, there are no counter "windows"

You just have to parry/dodge in time. It's not a specific "window" like there were for counter attacks

Sushiglutton
07-02-2014, 05:45 PM
I have my doubts about the combat system. The last ~10 or so times Ubi has tried to design melee it hasn't really worked out. There's no reason to expect them to get it right this time. It's one of their weakest areas imo.

The way it sounds is that you have three options in every instance (dodge, parry, attack) and you have to pick the right move. I suppose there's some timing involved. The way they describe the five-enemy-cap makes me think they are being serious about Arno not being able to fight really large groups. Basically it sounds like the AI has been programmed to draw fire arms when Arno is greatly ounumbered and gun him down. Reason being to provide an incentive for escape and going back to stealth. I don't see why this wouldn't be the case, so I'm not sure why so many doubt this point.

The main reason they are rebuilding however (or so is my guess) combat is the co-op. Co-op melee is kind of unusual and seems a bit tricky to me as you fight in the same small space (compare to a shooter where players naturally fight on different flanks). The constant slow-mo effects of AC3-4 are also something you have to think about how to implement.

Interesting to see how it will turn out and I hope my doubts are put to shame!

m4r-k7
07-02-2014, 06:11 PM
Everyone is always so negative! Lets embrace positivity people! Ubisoft have changed the combat system as everyone has been complaining about it for years. Whilst it might not be a groundbreaking new mechanic, its unlikely to be worse than being able to kill like 20 people in 10 seconds and not having that "assassin" feel to the game like AC 1 and AC 2 had.

Sushiglutton
07-02-2014, 07:48 PM
Everyone is always so negative!

I used to be the most positive human in the world. But that was before the dark times, before AC3

GreySkellig
07-02-2014, 08:08 PM
I think that they're telling the truth about the "5 or more and you're dead thing" but that it's for the beginning of the game.

I have considered that...and if you eventually worked up to be able to take on slightly larger groups with more practice and skills (7 or 8), I'd be okay with that. My concern is that if 5 really is a hard ceiling across the game, you'll be forced to avoid or flee nearly every patrol of guards.

itsamea-mario
07-02-2014, 08:18 PM
Good, i hope we can't go round fighting 20+ soldiers with ease.

SolidSage
07-02-2014, 08:27 PM
I only see "5 guards and you're dead" as a challenge. The kind I like.

I'm happy for a change to combat and think making 5 guards difficult is a good thing for coop free roam. AC4 was literally no challenge at all to run the entire maps wiping them clean of AI. Can you imagine how much MORE boring it would have been with a buddy?

Honestly, the biggest detractor was the ability to sprint up behind guards, double hidden blade 2, insta kill another and then chain kill the rest. Just played out. I miss the thrill of AC1 Templar encounters, before I had become so practiced in AC's combat systems. Such a thrill back then, having to run away, desperately searching for a place to hide. Good times.

deskp
07-02-2014, 08:44 PM
In acb-ac4 you could kill thousands of guard without getitng hurt if you wanted. That was the GAMEPLAY of the game, not the STORY.

Also the statement that 5 guards and mroe or youre dead was just seomthign ehs aid generally. it wasnt part of some spreadsheet for the game. you don't automatically die if 5 people show up...

rickprog
07-02-2014, 10:54 PM
I fully take sides with Ubisoft on this one. The stealth has been in need of enhancing and prioritizing for quite a while now, even when it got the stalk zones and moving hiding spots (like hay carts, which were quite underused) back in AC3. I've been one that has always cheered for a Stealth Mode and I'm glad we're getting it for Unity.

That said, I believe that the 5 enemies mark is excessive, but the only reason I give to it is that we should be able to deal with more enemies the better we get at combat on ACU, and I don't mean on customization but on combat system mastery. It's too early to tell if that will be the case or not, though.

Calvarok
07-02-2014, 11:36 PM
There is no evidence that the animus' previous depictions of combat were in any way accurate to the level of ability previous ancestors had. Edward gets killed by three guys when he's younger than ACR Ezio. Being an extremely skilled fighter doesn't mean you can actually take on 50 people in a stand-up fight, unless you're superhuman. and despite what you might say about TWCB genes and whatnot, assassins are still just normal humans.

Or what, do you think they have a magic ability to make guards too stupid to attack more than two at a time? Or to just shrug off a few bullets or direct slashes from a sword? that's always just been due to it being a video game with easy combat, and never intended to be a literal representation of how strong an Assassin is.

You'll note that Ezio only took out like 7 guards in the revelations trailer before he was cornered and captured. And none of them had ranged weapons besides Leandros, which also helped him.

There are endless cinematics that show Assassins treating only a few guards with respect and sneaking by them or running away. because in an actual realistically portrayed fight, they would have a chance of losing to three guys, even if they were bottom-of-the-barrel grunts. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, all it takes is one mistake.

5 guards being a seriously challenging threat is EXACTLY how I've always wanted AC fights to scale up. I don't have any interest in fighting at a larger scale than that, and I feel like it's good to be encouraged to run from fights for reasons other than being bored of them. I also feel like this system is probably the truest to how strong an Assassin would really be in open-combat.

Sesheenku
07-02-2014, 11:50 PM
Doubt it will be impossible, it certainly won't be DMC difficulty, with that said I'm sure it'll be a little like DMC in the sense that if you master it, which Ideally like DMC should be difficult you'll be able to make the enemies look like a joke.

Although DMC takes a long time to master so hopefully not quite that difficult ;P wouldn't mind having to practice for a month or two though before being able to take out guards easily because of skill rather then the guards actually being easy.

Assassin_M
07-03-2014, 12:11 AM
Not entirely true. This is where the whole "freedom of playstyle" comes into question. Uncle Mario was an assassin and he was the leader of a bunch of mercenary brutes. Bartolomeo was an assassin and his approach to any situation was anything but subtle. Even in AltaÔr's time assassinations were about making a public statement, to make your enemy know their days were numbered by making a big scene in broad daylight.

I'm a stealth fan myself and I'm happy they're making/claiming to make stealth harder, because it should be. You should be free to engage in combat, but be aware that it's a much riskier approach. The risk of stealth should be that your target may escape if you fail, and the risk of combat should be that you yourself may get killed. An assassin should be trained for both situations, but they should be allowed to choose their approach.
This, always this. if AC's design philosophy EVER openly favors a play style over the other, it's effectively removed the freedom that made us love the first game so much..it'd be no worse than making combat extremely easy..

Ureh
07-03-2014, 03:11 AM
You'll note that Ezio only took out like 7 guards in the revelations trailer before he was cornered and captured. And none of them had ranged weapons besides Leandros, which also helped him.

I think he killed 11, but maybe I was just counting a few of them twice.

Shiggyz49
07-03-2014, 06:31 AM
This, always this. if AC's design philosophy EVER openly favors a play style over the other, it's effectively removed the freedom that made us love the first game so much..it'd be no worse than making combat extremely easy..
Assassin's Creed already does favor one play style over another. Running in and killing everybody is always the easiest way through a mission. The combat already is extremely easy.

Assassin_M
07-03-2014, 06:32 AM
Assassin's Creed already does favor one play style over another. Running in and killing everybody is always the easiest way through a mission. The combat already is extremely easy.
That's what I said...

shobhit7777777
07-03-2014, 08:27 AM
This, always this. if AC's design philosophy EVER openly favors a play style over the other, it's effectively removed the freedom that made us love the first game so much..it'd be no worse than making combat extremely easy..

Precisely

Combat/Stealth/Parkour are there for player expression primarily. Beefing up stealth doesn't necessarily require gimping combat......it should be about the player's choice...I CHOOSE to stealth because thats how MY Assassin operates. The choice becomes meaningful only when the game doesn't enforce it.

That said

We don't know much yet.....the 5 guard rule (And I swear somebody had presented that idea here...I think it was AssassinHMS) doesn't exactly mean that 5 guards and its game over - it could imply that if there are 5 guards and above....then you only engage if you're skillful enough...and even then it might be a challenge.

What is important to note here is how the various systems speak to each other...and how ACU is crafting an experience for us

We know that ACU is adopting elements like Last Known Position, Massive Crowds to blend into, Absence of rooftop guards - all of this implies a very solid Sneaking - Detection - Evasion - Sneaking gameplay loop....there are clear and accessible evasion features in the game with a 'Search & Destroy" phase as well (LKP....think of Splinter Cell Conviction)

This requires that the three pillars blend in seamlessly - you stalk your target from the crowd....you close in and strike...smoke bomb - kill 3-4....the guards close in.....you escape to the roofs....your LKP pops up and the guards search that area...you parkour down to street level...evade guards...blend into the crowd....and stalk again.

This greater degree of interactivity between the pillars.....may require that they complement each other...and in some cases augment each other as well.

ACU - with its combat - seems to be pushing for this strike-vanish-strike loop. Combat needs to be managed quickly and efficiently...you either quickly slay the Quintet....or be prepared for harder combat when more than 5 drop in...thus encouraging you to get started with evasion.

Arno is a glass cannon - like Batman or Sam Fisher...the dude needs to be efficient and quick whether in Combat OR Stealth. The devs WANT you to explore the new systems in place. Now whether you like it or not...is a different story altogether

I personally feel that combat should be about empowerment and am against the Quintet rule.....it should be the player's choice whether to disengage or not. Yeah...I can demolish a battalion...but being a sneaky bastard...Ima vanish and strike them in the rear again.

Farlander1991
07-03-2014, 09:07 AM
I personally feel that combat should be about empowerment and am against the Quintet rule.....it should be the player's choice whether to disengage or not. Yeah...I can demolish a battalion...but being a sneaky bastard...Ima vanish and strike them in the rear again.

I agree that Assassin's Creed as a series is about choice. But I also believe that they should be about educated choices. Choices that matter. And Assassin's Creed kinda tries to have it to some degree in some place, but really it doesn't. Choosing to go stealth is not a meaningful choice if a ****-up can be resolved in five seconds due to the absence of combat difficulty. Which in turn, also makes combat itself not meaningful.

I believe in the design philosophy that pretty much everything that's part of the system should have a reason to be used and not to be used. Just like stealth is about educated choices, i.e. if I go here and then there and then take out this guy then I can pass by unnoticed here and then I distract these and everything is cool, so should be combat.

So all parts of the system have their ups and downs, and our role as a player is to choose how we manage all that. And there should always be scenarios where plan B might be required, because none of these choices should be inherently better, and if we fail at what we chose then we must adapt. In stealth you might get noticed. In combat you might get overpowered. In parkour you might get caught up with. So you have to deal with this accordingly. And in that case the quintet rule is kinda important for there to be meaningful choices.

Gibbo2g_83
07-03-2014, 11:45 AM
I have a horrible feeling that the new combat system might spoil the game for me, 3 quarters of the fun I have on these games is going round fighting with all the guards so if you now end up dying everytime you have a fight with group of enemies it will really spoil the game for me. I'm just hoping it can be mastered so with practice you can still feel like a fully trained Assassin. I personally think that they should have just tweaked the combat by giving guards health bars and only allowing counter kills when they have one bar of health left. Shorten the counter windows and make the guards attack you in unpredictable patterns rather than the same order everytime.

pacmanate
07-03-2014, 11:51 AM
That's what I said...

no one cares :(

LULJust kidding

m4r-k7
07-03-2014, 11:52 AM
Im really happy, they haven't put this much emphasis on actually being an assassin since AC 2. All the rest after this one, they have been slowly making combat easier and easier, where it eventually came to AC 4 which was just ridiculous. I am glad AC 4 did try to focus on stealth a lot, it just didn't always work as you know that you can take on anyone very quickly. AC 1 and AC 2 (along with AC 4) were my favourite AC titles, so I am very happy they are making it harder. You will feel more skilled when you defeat a bunch of enemies, rather than just continuously killing everyone in a couple of seconds.

Deezl-V
07-03-2014, 04:09 PM
Some of you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying combat should be easy, I'm saying it should be difficult only in the "taking damage effect" sense. If the user has the skills to dodge, parry and/or attack, then that's what skills we should be able to use. What they need to fix in the combat system is, and I've said this already, the way you take damage and how it affects your abilities. If you get stabbed for instance, you should be much slower in attacking, weaker too, slower in running away and climbing and slower in dodging while being weaker in parrying. Maybe get killed if shot twice. If they make takin damage more realistic, that would be a much more fun experience than getting over powered by a mob and still having full abilities no matter how much damage you take.

Just like ezio in revelations trailer and even Conner in AC3 trailer, they both go in guns a blazing and kill a bunch of guards with ease because an assassin is somewhat superhuman with their martial art abilities. It is a video game and it should be fun in that aspect too. If I'm being surrounded by guards and the game is telling me I cannot win the battle based on too many guards, well then that's stupid if I have the skills to fight my way through it. I mean if you guys are speaking you want "realism", well then why isn't the parkour made realistically? Some of it is outrageous just like the ACU trailer where Arno parkours down the building by jumping off of it and catching a pole and swinging to the next spot and easily gets down a building like superman.

Again it's a video game and it should be made to be fun in all aspects, not easy.......fun. Where I have the control to do what I want in any situation based on my thumb skills.

Jexx21
07-03-2014, 04:13 PM
Superman can fly...

you mean like Spider-Man... also pretty sure that the parkour shown would actually be possible in real life. Have you seen some of the things that gymnasts can do?

purplekurple
07-03-2014, 04:16 PM
Superman can fly...

you mean like Spider-Man... also pretty sure that the parkour shown would actually be possible in real life. Have you seen some of the things that gymnasts can do?

Parkour was realistic until "controlled descent". The idea that you can dive onto a bar from 100s of ft is insane.

Deezl-V
07-03-2014, 04:21 PM
Parkour was realistic until "controlled descent". The idea that you can dive onto a bar from 100s of ft is insane.


Lol. I know. Jexx is coo coo for cocoa puffs. Not only the bar, but swing off of it and then grab a wall.

0:42 seconds, The first 2 grabs of the pole then wall are NOT "realistic" but it's there for the fun factor and wow of what video games should bring.


http://youtu.be/-bQvRgIB6CM

Ureh
07-03-2014, 05:10 PM
Some of you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not saying combat should be easy, I'm saying it should be difficult only in the "taking damage effect" sense. If the user has the skills to dodge, parry and/or attack, then that's what skills we should be able to use. What they need to fix in the combat system is, and I've said this already, the way you take damage and how it affects your abilities. If you get stabbed for instance, you should be much slower in attacking, weaker too, slower in running away and climbing and slower in dodging while being weaker in parrying. Maybe get killed if shot twice. If they make takin damage more realistic, that would be a much more fun experience than getting over powered by a mob and still having full abilities no matter how much damage you take. .

ACR did have something along those lines... when Ezio was in critical state he couldn't use Eagle Vision. It also seemed like, from AC2 to AC3, counter kills and/or dodges could still fail during critical state even when timed correctly. Although I can't really prove it... it just feels like that was the case in my experience. :p x)

Dome500
07-03-2014, 05:25 PM
The way it sounds is that you have three options in every instance (dodge, parry, attack) and you have to pick the right move. I suppose there's some timing involved. The way they describe the five-enemy-cap makes me think they are being serious about Arno not being able to fight really large groups. Basically it sounds like the AI has been programmed to draw fire arms when Arno is greatly ounumbered and gun him down. Reason being to provide an incentive for escape and going back to stealth. I don't see why this wouldn't be the case, so I'm not sure why so many doubt this point.

Pistol, Phantom Blade, Smoke Grenade, etc.
If you use your tools I am sure they will not be able to kill you if you are good.


snip.


snip

I think even with the combat restrictions as they are a skilled player will be able to take on 8 - 10 enemies and get out with a little bit health left, especially if skills and equipment can alter the combat stats and the protection Arno has and the damage he deals.

Remember they said this time the Weapons will have REAL differences in stats. They also showed that equipment has certain effects (beyond protection) on Arno and they said there are skill trees for Combat, Stealth and Parkour.

IMO it is not a very far-fetched assumption that the player will be able to take on even difficulty guard types in groups of more than 5, although it will probably be hard.

And that is only fair to be honest. In my personal experiences empowerment does not only come through superiority in a situation, but maybe also through the fact that you are successful against the odds.

And Stealth can be equally difficult at times. It's not like Stealth is easy and players being skilled for Stealth will probably have big problems in open combat, which means Stealth for them should not fail, which means it is difficult for them as well to keep their "hidden" status intact.

If combat becomes equally difficult in comparison (as far as one can compare that) then the field is even.

Like someone said here, combat was always a more preferred route in AC, at least in terms of what is easier. Now that Stealth is finally properly supported and combat is slightly harder we might see a game that is pretty balanced between the 2.

As for the guys who are afraid that we will die with 5 enemies, I am pretty sure that is an assumption based on the skill of the average player, maybe even based on what we are used to from previous games. So as we learn the combat system and our character learns with us (skills) we will be able to fight more and more enemies, I am sure of that. Just look at the singleplayer or the coop E3 demo, it looked pretty easy to kill an enemy. I am sure the difficulty comes less from the actual damage enemies make but more from the fact that enemies attack at the same time and you have to evade and work more for the kill instead of being able to 1-hit-kill.

Plus, I am 100% sure they will adjust and balance the amount of enemies in a group based on what you can handle. So enemy groups will probably only be 2 - 6 enemies. Now think about it, 2 you can kill from range at least, then you close in and maybe get 1 or 2 by surprise, and then you fight of the last 2.

I think the combat system is not promoting or suggesting Stealth, it is just encouraging you to be clever.

GunnerGalactico
07-03-2014, 05:26 PM
Parkour was realistic until "controlled descent". The idea that you can dive onto a bar from 100s of ft is insane.

The parkour in Unity may not look very realistic, but it does look very flamboyant.

GunnerGalactico
07-03-2014, 05:36 PM
Pistol, Phantom Blade, Smoke Grenade, etc.
If you use your tools I am sure they will not be able to kill you if you are good.

That's right. Not to mention, Arno has a double barrel pistol... so there is no need to reload after every shot, that is sure to make life a little easier.

Assassin_M
07-03-2014, 05:39 PM
Im really happy, they haven't put this much emphasis on actually being an assassin since AC 2. All the rest after this one, they have been slowly making combat easier and easier, where it eventually came to AC 4 which was just ridiculous. I am glad AC 4 did try to focus on stealth a lot, it just didn't always work as you know that you can take on anyone very quickly. AC 1 and AC 2 (along with AC 4) were my favourite AC titles, so I am very happy they are making it harder. You will feel more skilled when you defeat a bunch of enemies, rather than just continuously killing everyone in a couple of seconds.
Combat was always easy in AC. The only remotely challenging combat was in AC I and that was still too easy

Jexx21
07-03-2014, 07:19 PM
Parkour was realistic until "controlled descent". The idea that you can dive onto a bar from 100s of ft is insane.

luckily it isn't hundreds of feet (I'm gonna guess in between 20 and 40), and that's an upgraded parkour move that is called base jumping...

seriously, it' isn't completely unrealistic. it's more realistic than jumping into bales of hay, that's for sure.

purplekurple
07-03-2014, 08:20 PM
luckily it isn't hundreds of feet (I'm gonna guess in between 20 and 40), and that's an upgraded parkour move that is called base jumping...

seriously, it' isn't completely unrealistic. it's more realistic than jumping into bales of hay, that's for sure.

Everytime I watch that dive I expect his arms to rip off.

Calvarok
07-03-2014, 08:28 PM
Has everyone forgotten that you've been able to fall from an unlimited height and grab onto a ledge since the first game?

also controlled descent isn't as crazy as you say it is, and involves a lot of redirecting momentum through spins and such. They've also officially stated that every single move shown has been performed by a real person during motion capture, so...

the human body has limits, but it can do some crazy ****.

pacmanate
07-03-2014, 08:29 PM
Everytime I watch that dive I expect his arms to rip off.

Im getting deja vu, i swear someone else has said this.

Calvarok
07-03-2014, 08:38 PM
yeah, watched it again. the furthest drop is like 3-3.5 meters, and every other jump is significantly smaller. I've seen teenagers do crazier things in a real-life gymnastic class.

LoyalACFan
07-03-2014, 09:00 PM
Are people really complaining about the new base jump mechanic being unrealistic? Have you forgotten all the moves in the last SEVEN games?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q63/pikagurlxd/BUM%20BUM%20BUUM/tumblr_lbxn94pRfd1qd9syg.gif

REALLY??!?!?

pacmanate
07-03-2014, 09:01 PM
Are people really complaining about the new base jump mechanic being unrealistic? Have you forgotten all the moves in the last SEVEN games?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q63/pikagurlxd/BUM BUM BUUM/tumblr_lbxn94pRfd1qd9syg.gif

REALLY??!?!?

You under estimate the power of #hay

Calvarok
07-03-2014, 09:04 PM
hay 2 stronk

LoyalACFan
07-03-2014, 09:09 PM
You under estimate the power of #hay

Brotherhoot needs to redo this meme with a hay cart slapped over his face

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-31741-you-underestimate-my-power-gif-KdeZ.gif

AssassinHMS
07-03-2014, 09:18 PM
The real issue here is the "superhuman assassin" concept that plagued the franchise. The more realistic these games are the better.

Calvarok
07-03-2014, 09:26 PM
The real issue here is the "superhuman assassin" concept that plagued the franchise. The more realistic these games are the better.
Yep. I don't think any of the games have really represented to me a true, authentic assassin experience. AC1 tried the hardest, but you were still way too strong.

the counter-kill and kill-chaining being gone is gonna be really good for the series, imo.

Megas_Doux
07-03-2014, 09:29 PM
Are people really complaining about the new base jump mechanic being unrealistic? Have you forgotten all the moves in the last SEVEN games?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q63/pikagurlxd/BUM%20BUM%20BUUM/tumblr_lbxn94pRfd1qd9syg.gif

REALLY??!?!?

This a 10000000000000000000000 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Every Assassin to date has been, more or less, a man army if required, even Altair......

LoyalACFan
07-03-2014, 09:31 PM
Yep. I don't think any of the games have really represented to me a true, authentic assassin experience. AC1 tried the hardest, but you were still way too strong.

the counter-kill and kill-chaining being gone is gonna be really good for the series, imo.

Are you sure kill-chaining is gone? He looks like he does it around 2:15 to me. The second guy he kills outside the social club.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej0o6-BQjxE

Ureh
07-03-2014, 09:36 PM
Are you sure kill-chaining is gone? He looks like he does it around 2:15 to me. The second guy he kills outside the social club.

[video=youtube;Ej0o6-BQjxE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej0o6-BQjxE[

I think that's more to do with his health bar. Cause Arno hit him once with the sword before switching to the other dude. Then returns to finish the second guy. But since his health bar was already low from the first strike so he dies in one hit. So I guess there might be "extra" damage inflicted if you hit a guard in the yellow awareness state. What do you think?! :)

Calvarok
07-03-2014, 09:39 PM
Are you sure kill-chaining is gone? He looks like he does it around 2:15 to me. The second guy he kills outside the social club.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej0o6-BQjxE
nah, he just kills him in two hits. as you can see if you watch the commented version of the video, the demo guy messed up. he was supposed to double assassinate those two. so I wouldn't be surprised if they had lower health than normal for the demo. I hope regular grunt enemies won't be quite as easy to kill as it appears there. but the time to kill on that higher level guy looks good imo.

LoyalACFan
07-03-2014, 09:45 PM
I think that's more to do with his health bar. Cause Arno hit him once with the sword before switching to the other dude. Then returns to finish the second guy. But since his health bar was already low from the first strike so he dies in one hit. So I guess there might be "extra" damage inflicted if you hit a guard in the yellow awareness state. What do you think?! :)

Yeah, that's true, I didn't realize he had already been hit once. It may very well be that they take more damage if they're in the lower alertness state, I think it was like that in AC1 and 2. More likely though, I think, is that they were nerfed for the sake of the demo like Calvarok said. The big guy took a ton of hits to kill, and I can't imagine the smaller guys going out THAT easy.

Megas_Doux
07-03-2014, 09:53 PM
Are you sure kill-chaining is gone? He looks like he does it around 2:15 to me. The second guy he kills outside the social club.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej0o6-BQjxE

By the way....

[
Does Arno say "Robespierre at 5:08??????]

GunnerGalactico
07-03-2014, 09:56 PM
@ Megas

Yup, he most certainly did. :D

LoyalACFan
07-03-2014, 09:59 PM
By the way....

[
Does Arno say "Robespierre at 5:08??????]

Yeah, "Robespierre's thugs" or something.

Arno's the one who shot Robespierre in the face, confirmed ;)

GunnerGalactico
07-03-2014, 10:03 PM
Yeah, "Robespierre's thugs" or something.

Arno's the one who shot Robespierre in the face, confirmed ;)

We might actually see that in game because historians are still unsure if Robespierre shot himself on the jaw or if it was one his associates that did it :p

Jexx21
07-03-2014, 10:13 PM
I dunno I kinda want chain kills to still be in the game in some form..

or bring back the combo chains from AC1.

Hans684
07-03-2014, 10:17 PM
I dunno I kinda want chain kills to still be in the game in some form..

or bring back the combo chains from AC1.

It can be part of the combat skill tree. Making optional to be an one man army or a "true" Assassin.

Jexx21
07-03-2014, 10:24 PM
combo chains were still good though, you had to get the timing just right to be able to do them. I'm pretty sure that most players don't even know how to do them.

Calvarok
07-03-2014, 10:26 PM
well I don't doubt that combos are still in. just none of the instant-kill features from previous games.

Deezl-V
07-03-2014, 11:16 PM
The real issue here is the "superhuman assassin" concept that plagued the franchise. The more realistic these games are the better.

Correct, so making 100ft leaps, grabbing pipes, poles, walls, falling into haystacks from rooftops without any physics being applied on those things being grabbed from high heights is realistic too. o.O

Getting stabbed 5 times is realistic too. Yup yup.

Getting shot 5 times from a line is realistic too. Yup yup.

Jexx21
07-03-2014, 11:50 PM
there are no 100 ft leaps.

yup yup
yup yup
yup yup
yup yup
yup yup

Assassin_M
07-03-2014, 11:52 PM
grabbing pipes, poles, walls
You're unable to grab to grab pipes, poles and walls? :confused:

Jexx21
07-03-2014, 11:56 PM
I can't wait to be Spider-Man the Assassin

OH THAT JUST REMINDED ME OF ANOTHER FANFIC IDEA I HAD BEFORE
to buwywl!

Deezl-V
07-04-2014, 12:23 AM
there are no 100 ft leaps.

yup yup
yup yup
yup yup
yup yup
yup yup

You were saying? Yup yup yuuuuuuuup.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q63/pikagurlxd/BUM%20BUM%20BUUM/tumblr_lbxn94pRfd1qd9syg.gif

If you're calling for realism, then make it all out full. No leaps of faith or you'd (cough cough) DIE. lol.
It's a video game and should be based on fun. I enjoyed the 5-10 man kills. But like I said, the damage taken to your character should be fixed. If I go into battle with 10 guys, and I get shot or stabbed, I should be slower in all aspects of combat and parkour until I can recover. And I already stated that. If they made the damage taken have a more realistic effect on your player, then it would still make you "think" to engage with many guards around because getting shot will have you be injured to the point Of not being able to run away fast enough or even climb to get away thus getting caught and getting killed.

Calvarok
07-04-2014, 12:42 AM
He was referring to the "controlled descent" mechanic, not the leap of faith which has been mostly explained as a shortcut programmed into the animus for getting down quick. Some dude said that arno fell 100 feet during the first jump in controlled descent which is... not even close to true.


But they have said that leaps of faith will be much more rare in Unity, so...

Jexx21
07-04-2014, 02:01 AM
deisel, you do realize that what you're asking for in regards to combat is probably harder to program than what they're giving us, and they may not have enough time to do that and also work out all the kinks.

LoyalACFan
07-04-2014, 02:20 AM
You're unable to grab to grab pipes, poles and walls? :confused:

Those little pole things that stick up out of the water in Venice, I guess?

AssassinHMS
07-04-2014, 05:12 PM
If you're calling for realism, then make it all out full. No leaps of faith or you'd (cough cough) DIE. lol.
? So you don’t like your own idea?
Why would I want to make it all out full? I don’t deal in absolutes.




It's a video game and should be based on fun. I enjoyed the 5-10 man kills.
Indeed, fun is essential. Realism would add a lot of fun. Unfortunately AC’s core was always too weak and bare boned to even attempt to simulate reality. Hence, the superhuman assassin concept that tries to mask the pathetic underdeveloped core mechanics. It ruins the formula. Do you think you would enjoy AC4 if there wasn’t naval, if the core was all there was? That’s how bad it is. By making stealth and combat easy as hell, the player feels like they work. By making enemies dumb and weak, you spend less time analyzing the game and its mechanics and more time rushing through it without realizing just how BAD the game actually is. It’s not even worthy of the name “game”, it’s just a tour.

And you didn’t kill any of those men. In order to kill more than 2 men, your brain would need to be active and you would need to be smart and skilled. All you did was press some buttons but it never required skill, smarts or brain activity at all. All you did was watch and enjoy a bloodbath. If that is what gamers want these days then I’m out.

That is why realism is needed. In order to simulate reality, you need strong and complex mechanics. Something AC SHOULD have had since AC2 (when they first had a chance to actually improve from AC1).

purplekurple
07-04-2014, 05:59 PM
He was referring to the "controlled descent" mechanic, not the leap of faith which has been mostly explained as a shortcut programmed into the animus for getting down quick. Some dude said that arno fell 100 feet during the first jump in controlled descent which is... not even close to true.


But they have said that leaps of faith will be much more rare in Unity, so...

I was exaggerate but Arno did fall a good 30 ft onto the pole. That would rip your arms of in real life.

Jexx21
07-04-2014, 06:19 PM
real people do stuff like that all the time though without getting their arms ripped off

goob0t
07-04-2014, 06:23 PM
Just cause it is harder for you the player doesn't mean it was for Arno.

m4r-k7
07-04-2014, 06:36 PM
Meh who cares if the parkour is a tad unrealistic, there are many parts of AC that can be considered unrealistic. Nonetheless it looks so awesome as Arno is the most agile assassin to date. People seriousily have to stop being so negative about these silly things. Embrace the positivity about the game!

Hans684
07-04-2014, 08:23 PM
Indeed, fun is essential. Realism would add a lot of fun. Unfortunately AC’s core was always too weak and bare boned to even attempt to simulate reality. Hence, the superhuman assassin concept that tries to mask the pathetic underdeveloped core mechanics. It ruins the formula. Do you think you would enjoy AC4 if there wasn’t naval, if the core was all there was? That’s how bad it is. By making stealth and combat easy as hell, the player feels like they work. By making enemies dumb and weak, you spend less time analyzing the game and its mechanics and more time rushing through it without realizing just how BAD the game actually is. It’s not even worthy of the name “game”, it’s just a tour.

And you didn’t kill any of those men. In order to kill more than 2 men, your brain would need to be active and you would need to be smart and skilled. All you did was press some buttons but it never required skill, smarts or brain activity at all. All you did was watch and enjoy a bloodbath. If that is what gamers want these days then I’m out.

That is why realism is needed. In order to simulate reality, you need strong and complex mechanics. Something AC SHOULD have had since AC2 (when they first had a chance to actually improve from AC1).

You can calm down your campaign now or have you not watched anything regarding Unity? Unity is the Assassin simulator AC2(For some reason Patrice and his team dropped it) and ACB(Patrice last chance to make an Assassin simulator before handing over the franchise to Ubisoft) could have been.

Deezl-V
07-04-2014, 08:37 PM
? So you donít like your own idea?
Why would I want to make it all out full? I donít deal in absolutes.




Indeed, fun is essential. Realism would add a lot of fun. Unfortunately ACís core was always too weak and bare boned to even attempt to simulate reality. Hence, the superhuman assassin concept that tries to mask the pathetic underdeveloped core mechanics. It ruins the formula. Do you think you would enjoy AC4 if there wasnít naval, if the core was all there was? Thatís how bad it is. By making stealth and combat easy as hell, the player feels like they work. By making enemies dumb and weak, you spend less time analyzing the game and its mechanics and more time rushing through it without realizing just how BAD the game actually is. Itís not even worthy of the name ďgameĒ, itís just a tour.

And you didnít kill any of those men. In order to kill more than 2 men, your brain would need to be active and you would need to be smart and skilled. All you did was press some buttons but it never required skill, smarts or brain activity at all. All you did was watch and enjoy a bloodbath. If that is what gamers want these days then Iím out.

That is why realism is needed. In order to simulate reality, you need strong and complex mechanics. Something AC SHOULD have had since AC2 (when they first had a chance to actually improve from AC1).


Pay attention and read what I wrote bud. I'll repaste it below for you.

"But like I said, the damage taken to your character should be fixed. If I go into battle with 10 guys, and I get shot or stabbed, I should be slower in all aspects of combat and parkour until I can recover. And I already stated that. If they made the damage taken have a more realistic effect on your player, then it would still make you "think" to engage with many guards around because getting shot will have you be injured to the point of not being able to run away fast enough or even climb to get away thus getting caught and getting killed."

So what I'm saying is they are tweaking one side of the combat system when they should be tweaking the other side. The effects on the user would still be the same but would also give the user a more fun way to approach things if they are thumb skilled to do so just like ezio in ACR trailer and Conner in ac3 trailer. So if you decide to go guns a blazing against a group of foes, well one F up and you could get killed, not becuase there is some guys there that you CANT parry or dodge against. That's the game telling me what I can or can't do. And that is something don't agree with. Let me decide how I want to approach the situation as long as the consequences are delivered properly just like I stated in the quote above from myself in bold.

Jexx21
07-04-2014, 09:23 PM
Uh, AC2-AC4 all has enemies you couldn't use certain moves against. the game always told you what you could or couldn't do

purplekurple
07-05-2014, 01:31 AM
real people do stuff like that all the time though without getting their arms ripped off

The force from that dive would definitely rip your arms off. Who drops from 30+ feet onto a bar.

Deezl-V
07-05-2014, 02:18 AM
The force from that dive would definitely rip your arms off. Who drops from 30+ feet onto a bar.

If not the arms ripping off, the force would break the bar then. And what about when it's raining? Would Arno still have the same down parkouring abilities? Wouldn't he slip off walls and bars diving off if building like that?

People ask for realism but then when it's something the don't like, they contradict themselves. Lol

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 02:29 AM
The force from that dive would definitely rip your arms off. Who drops from 30+ feet onto a bar.
This is nothing new, grabbing onto a bar from 30ft (and more) was always in the series.



People ask for realism but then when it's something the don't like, they contradict themselves. Lol
It's totally okay if a game is aiming for realism in places while lacking it in others, it's not a full package thing, take it or leave it

rickprog
07-05-2014, 02:38 AM
It can't be realistic in all senses. It would be not fun at all to play if that was the case. Hell, imagine playing underwater if Edward's lung capacity wasn't as exaggerated as it was, for example? It would be impossible. There must be things tweaked to make the game playable.

Jexx21
07-05-2014, 02:44 AM
If not the arms ripping off, the force would break the bar then. And what about when it's raining? Would Arno still have the same down parkouring abilities? Wouldn't he slip off walls and bars diving off if building like that?

People ask for realism but then when it's something the don't like, they contradict themselves. Lol

that goes for the previous games in the series as well. I mean, you shouldn't be able to free run on tents or ontop of market stalls that only have tarps covering the top of them, and the awnings you use shouldn't support anyone at all

regardless of that, yes, it is possible to fall a large distance and grab a pole without your arms ripping off, or the pole breaking if the pole is sturdy enough >.>

Calvarok
07-05-2014, 04:14 AM
I hope someone asks arno about how he pulled off that parkour move in a cutscene and they just roll some actual real life footage of a mo-cap guy performing the move and then Arno just looks at the camera for 5 seconds.

purplekurple
07-05-2014, 06:58 AM
that goes for the previous games in the series as well. I mean, you shouldn't be able to free run on tents or ontop of market stalls that only have tarps covering the top of them, and the awnings you use shouldn't support anyone at all

regardless of that, yes, it is possible to fall a large distance and grab a pole without your arms ripping off, or the pole breaking if the pole is sturdy enough >.>

You'd be severely injured though. Face it, it's not realistic at all. He like Spider-Man It's still cool though.

Jexx21
07-05-2014, 07:12 AM
no, gymnasts do things similar a lot

of course, usually the bars that they're grabbing onto are a lot more flexible, but still

LoyalACFan
07-05-2014, 08:00 AM
Seriously, if anyone is THAT bothered by the base jump move, they should probably just stop playing Assassin's Creed. Climbing has NEVER been realistic, nor should it have to be. Check 00:37-00:54.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fwKwEW4DXw

And that's doing it the hard way, the easiest method is to jump straight forward from the starting position and grab the lip of the Colosseum. Never mind the fact that he's wearing ten times the armor and weapons Arno is.

Locopells
07-05-2014, 09:06 AM
I assume the creator of that knows the parachute is actually the fastest and easiest way to get down, right?!

LoyalACFan
07-05-2014, 09:17 AM
I assume the creator of that knows the parachute is actually the fastest and easiest way to get down, right?!

Hard to say. I never used the parachute in Brotherhood (felt clunky IMO) so maybe the creator of the video felt the same way. Like I said, the easiest way to do it is to leap straight forward and catch the inner edge of the Colosseum, which is at least a 30ft drop from where he started; hence the base jumping argument being silly.

Locopells
07-05-2014, 02:13 PM
I'm gonna have to try that...

Deezl-V
07-05-2014, 02:40 PM
Seriously, if anyone is THAT bothered by the base jump move, they should probably just stop playing Assassin's Creed. Climbing has NEVER been realistic, nor should it have to be. Check 00:37-00:54.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fwKwEW4DXw

And that's doing it the hard way, the easiest method is to jump straight forward from the starting position and grab the lip of the Colosseum. Never mind the fact that he's wearing ten times the armor and weapons Arno is.

Exactly what I'm saying. The parkouring from all the games has been great (and I'm sure it will be best in unity) because it's a video game and should be fun. Like I said, it shouldn't be part real and part fake. Make it 100% one way or the other. That's all I'm saying. Doing things half arced is not good at all.

rickprog
07-05-2014, 03:58 PM
I can't count how many times I heard Ashraf Ishmail say that despite the game trying to be historically accurate and realistic, there were things that couldn't be done in the real way because it would detract the game from being playable or fun. I don't think it's that hard to understand, seriously.

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 05:41 PM
Exactly what I'm saying. The parkouring from all the games has been great (and I'm sure it will be best in unity) because it's a video game and should be fun. Like I said, it shouldn't be part real and part fake. Make it 100% one way or the other. That's all I'm saying. Doing things half arced is not good at all.
This is incorrect, like I said. they're not full packages that you have to take or leave. It's not "half arsed" it's a direction in certain aspects and elements. a fantasy game can have very realistic graphics AND dragons and fairies...etc. This is just an example, portraying realism and fun as 2 packages and that developers have to take one or the other is pretty wrong and is only being said for argument's sake, there is no argument here.

Even your arguing here against Parkour in the video being "100% fun" and not part fake and part real is wrong, parkour in every AC game has had real elements and not so real elements. vaults are real, leaps are real, jumps are real, climbing is real BUT leaps of faith into bales of hay and surviving is not real, so yeah...

Jexx21
07-05-2014, 06:35 PM
The base jump thing is still possible though.

You should complain more about that one jump animation in AC3/AC4 where they used some kind of launcher to do the mo-cap for.

Deezl-V
07-05-2014, 06:48 PM
This is incorrect, like I said. they're not full packages that you have to take or leave. It's not "half arsed" it's a direction in certain aspects and elements. a fantasy game can have very realistic graphics AND dragons and fairies...etc. This is just an example, portraying realism and fun as 2 packages and that developers have to take one or the other is pretty wrong and is only being said for argument's sake, there is no argument here.

Even your arguing here against Parkour in the video being "100% fun" and not part fake and part real is wrong, parkour in every AC game has had real elements and not so real elements. vaults are real, leaps are real, jumps are real, climbing is real BUT leaps of faith into bales of hay and surviving is not real, so yeah...

You just said everything I'm agreeing with yet you're arguing my point. Lol. Like I said, game is suppose to be fun cuz it's a video game, so let me feel like a super assassin like Ezio and Conner in their trailers when they go guns a blazing. Sheesh. Lol.

And again you are not comprehending what I'm saying. You can still make the game have a feel of "realism" if you switch the "realism" effect on the damage taken side (which I already stated 2 or 3 times in this thread) than the other side which is a too many guys there and some being too fast or too strong for you. That's the part that makes no sense in a "video game".

So stop saying the exact same thing I'm saying but in different words and still have it come off as you are disagreeing with me. lol.

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 06:54 PM
You just said everything I'm agreeing with yet you're arguing my point. Lol. Like I said, game is suppose to be fun cuz it's a video game, so let me feel like a super assassin like Ezio and Conner in their trailers when they go guns a blazing. Sheesh. Lol.

And again you are not comprehending what I'm saying. You can still make the game have a feel of "realism" if you switch the "realism" effect on the damage taken side (which I already stated 2 or 3 times in this thread) than the other side which is a too many guys there and some being too fast or too strong for you. That's the part that makes no sense in a "video game".

So stop saying the exact same thing I'm saying but in different words and still have it come off as you are disagreeing with me. lol.
What you're saying -----> "Like I said, it shouldn't be part real and part fake. Make it 100% one way or the other. That's all I'm saying. Doing things half arced is not good at all"

What I'm saying ------> "it can be part real and part fake and that's not half-arsing it"

how is this the same?

Jexx21
07-05-2014, 06:58 PM
The combat in ACU isn't even going to be completely realistic, it's just that it's going to be slightly more challenging because of the lack of counter-kills. Removing counter-kills is a good thing.

Besides that, Ezio and Connor didn't even use any guns in those trailers so I don't see how they went in "guns a blazing" at all.

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 07:02 PM
Speaking of combat, anyone else irked that they're using fencing as a new buzzword to staple to combat?? It's just that watching his animations, very little of it seems to be influenced by actual fencing moves, if at all. I mean, if it's about attack, parry and defend then that was present in AC I and AC II...heck, Haytham's animations looked more like fencing than Arno's--or is that just me?

SolidSage
07-05-2014, 07:04 PM
Good games can just 'lean' towards realism. True simulators are boring as funk.
Creed has always had the right mix in that regard. New Creeds just need to up the ante for skill play, emergent game play and of course visual appeal. Unity's new approach to mission delivery should really help with immersion and breaking that feeling of checklist game play loops.
I feel like WD kinda was a testing ground for it, and aside from the PvP intrusions, the missions/objectives were delivered pretty well. It made you feel like things were occurring in a living world and you could respond in a natural way. Better than cut scene, NPC assigns task, player launches into mission.
Now let's just hope the mission content itself manages to evolve play as well. Amancio's talk suggests it might. Plus coop is an obvious boost. Like I said earlier, AI combat NEEDS to be more challenging if there to be multiple Assassins on the prowl.

Jexx21
07-05-2014, 07:05 PM
I never heard anyone from the AC team reference fencing. I've only heard fans saying that.

Hans684
07-05-2014, 07:05 PM
The combat in ACU isn't even going to be completely realistic, it's just that it's going to be slightly more challenging because of the lack of counter-kills. Removing counter-kills is a good thing.

I've always said that counter-kills is overpowered, at least the combat won't be the usual look at the stars style where you can fight with your eyes closed. And since chain-kills is gone it's even better. Those two things can however be part of the skill tree, there for making it optional to be a "superhuman Assassin" or a "True Assassin".

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 07:07 PM
I never heard anyone from the AC team reference fencing. I've only heard fans saying that.
in a lot of interviews, the blog article about combat and the making of...they all mention fencing.

Jexx21
07-05-2014, 07:12 PM
in a lot of interviews, the blog article about combat and the making of...they all mention fencing.

they didn't mention that they looked to the style of fencing, but rather the way it works.


So they went back to the drawing board and looked to fencing for inspiration. Whether it’s with foil, sabre or ťpťe, fencing is a system of checks and balances and trying to out-think your opponent by being 2 steps ahead. Like fencing, the new combat system is more timing based and the counter-kill is a thing of the past.

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 07:14 PM
they didn't mention that they looked to the style of fencing, but rather the way it works.


Speaking of combat, anyone else irked that they're using fencing as a new buzzword to staple to combat?? It's just that watching his animations, very little of it seems to be influenced by actual fencing moves, if at all. I mean, if it's about attack, parry and defend then that was present in AC I and AC II...heck, Haytham's animations looked more like fencing than Arno's--or is that just me?
^

I-Like-Pie45
07-05-2014, 08:01 PM
,maybe arno rips out fence posts and uses them to beat his enemies to death

thats also fencing, right?

Deezl-V
07-05-2014, 08:03 PM
What you're saying -----> "Like I said, it shouldn't be part real and part fake. Make it 100% one way or the other. That's all I'm saying. Doing things half arced is not good at all"

What I'm saying ------> "it can be part real and part fake and that's not half-arsing it"

how is this the same?

It's not but I never meant what I was saying. It was an EXAMPLE to what other are talking about by having REALISM in the game. I personally don't care one way or the other or mixed but I'm suggesting a more fun way yet still can have a "realistic" approach to how you play the game. If you are just reading my last 2 posts then ya, that's why you misconstrued what I MEAN and not what I SAID. ;)

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 08:06 PM
It's not but I never meant what I was saying. It was an EXAMPLE to what other are talking about by having REALISM in the game. I personally don't care one way or the other or mixed but I'm suggesting a more fun way yet still can have a "realistic" approach to how you play the game. If you are just reading my last 2 posts then ya, that's why you misconstrued what I MEAN and not what I SAID. ;)
If you never meant what you said, why say it at all??


,maybe arno rips out fence posts and uses them to beat his enemies to death

thats also fencing, right?
DON'T go there

Deezl-V
07-05-2014, 08:28 PM
If you never meant what you said, why say it at all??

Again, I used it as an example. Perhaps read the entire thread before replying to posts so you get the full story.
Anyways let's get off the "reply to me reply to you" stuff and get back on topic.

Assassin_M
07-05-2014, 08:34 PM
Again, I used it as an example. Perhaps read the entire thread before replying to posts so you get the full story.
I actually have, which is why i posted twice to you and someone else saying the same thing, this example thing only came up now but sure, back on topic.

AssassinHMS
07-05-2014, 09:38 PM
Pay attention and read what I wrote bud. I'll repaste it below for you.
Iím not your bud, friend.



"But like I said, the damage taken to your character should be fixed. If I go into battle with 10 guys, and I get shot or stabbed, I should be slower in all aspects of combat and parkour until I can recover. And I already stated that. If they made the damage taken have a more realistic effect on your player, then it would still make you "think" to engage with many guards around because getting shot will have you be injured to the point of not being able to run away fast enough or even climb to get away thus getting caught and getting killed."

So what I'm saying is they are tweaking one side of the combat system when they should be tweaking the other side. The effects on the user would still be the same but would also give the user a more fun way to approach things if they are thumb skilled to do so just like ezio in ACR trailer and Conner in ac3 trailer. So if you decide to go guns a blazing against a group of foes, well one F up and you could get killed, not becuase there is some guys there that you CANT parry or dodge against. That's the game telling me what I can or can't do. And that is something don't agree with. Let me decide how I want to approach the situation as long as the consequences are delivered properly just like I stated in the quote above from myself in bold.

SoÖa more realistic combat?
This doesnít make any sense. First you say you enjoy 5-10 man kills; that itís either no realism at all or all out full realism and now you suddenly want a somewhat more realistic combat. What?
And thereís no such thing as all out full realism in games. Everything is realistic to a certain point. You just created your own version of realism (no leaps of faith) and labeled it as fully realistic.
Please make sense.





You can calm down your campaign now or have you not watched anything regarding Unity? Unity is the Assassin simulator AC2(For some reason Patrice and his team dropped it) and ACB(Patrice last chance to make an Assassin simulator before handing over the franchise to Ubisoft) could have been.

I saw a game called Unity alright, but I havenít seen or played the actual game.

Deezl-V
07-06-2014, 01:01 AM
Iím not your bud, friend.

I'm not your friend, bud.


I actually have, which is why i posted twice to you and someone else saying the same thing, this example thing only came up now but sure, back on topic.

Well then comprehension isn't your forte. :p :p :p

Assassin_M
07-06-2014, 01:26 AM
Well then comprehension isn't your forte. :p :p :p
eh, I'd disagree.

Jexx21
07-06-2014, 01:27 AM
sausages

Assassin_M
07-06-2014, 01:29 AM
sausages
you fail me, Mark...what happened to being a helpful and knowledgeable member of the community?

Jexx21
07-06-2014, 01:36 AM
why do you call me Mark?

Assassin_M
07-06-2014, 01:36 AM
why do you call me Mark?
You look like Mark

Deezl-V
07-06-2014, 02:44 AM
You look like Mark

Lol

Hans684
07-06-2014, 09:32 AM
I saw a game called Unity alright, but I haven’t seen or played the actual game.

Fair enough, just thought I should ask consider what's shown so far has a lot of your previous ideas.