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Bull_dog_
02-23-2004, 05:57 PM
I read and see much discussion about how one plane turns better than another at high speed and sure enough... with blackouts/redouts turned off...some planes (aka Mustang) can out turn most everything at 700 km/hr.

What I struggle with, in the wacky world of sims, is that I can't turn this trait into an advantage with blackout/redouts on...

Take for example...a 109G-6 is on my tail so start a loose spiraling dive...at speed, I can out turn my opponent, however G's prevent me from yanking hard enough to gain and advantage. The 109 can't turn as well at high speed but can turn well enough to stay with me..again due to G's. Eventually I'll lose altitude and speed and my advantage will be gone as will my life...

Tactically speaking, in online game settings, how do you take advantage of this trait?

Bull_dog_
02-23-2004, 05:57 PM
I read and see much discussion about how one plane turns better than another at high speed and sure enough... with blackouts/redouts turned off...some planes (aka Mustang) can out turn most everything at 700 km/hr.

What I struggle with, in the wacky world of sims, is that I can't turn this trait into an advantage with blackout/redouts on...

Take for example...a 109G-6 is on my tail so start a loose spiraling dive...at speed, I can out turn my opponent, however G's prevent me from yanking hard enough to gain and advantage. The 109 can't turn as well at high speed but can turn well enough to stay with me..again due to G's. Eventually I'll lose altitude and speed and my advantage will be gone as will my life...

Tactically speaking, in online game settings, how do you take advantage of this trait?

Cajun76
02-23-2004, 06:03 PM
While G limits might be the same, your superior elevator authourity might allow you to pull out of a dive that the 109 can't. But that's not only playing chicken with your pursuer, but with the ground as well....

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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Have you thanked a veteran today?

SeaFireLIV
02-23-2004, 06:08 PM
Wouldn`t it be better to go at it at SLOW speed, perhaps with flaps. You should then outturn anyone faster....

SeaFireLIV...

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The Fights continue out of the Servers...

JG14_Josf
02-23-2004, 06:09 PM
Try one notch of flaps

Bull_dog_
02-23-2004, 07:11 PM
Lets stay with the Mustang and Jug...two of my favorites...

flying slow with one notch of flap will get you pasted... the mustang can stay with a few aircraft but the jug can't seem to stay with a Bf-110...not that I expect it too.

I am strictly speaking of turning the advantage of high speed elevator authority into a tactical advantage in the game...I think it was in real life but I don't have the tactics to do it in FB with blackouts on...anyone have any tactical suggestions?

Everything I have read indicates the 109 gets very heavy at the controls as speed increases ...spitfires are terrible at high speed turns, Fw's are not good turners to begin with but are better at high speed than 109's, Zekes can't get to high speed let alone turn with weak elevator authority...so if the Mustang had one of the best...if not the best high speed turn advantage (shared by the Tempest as well I think) .... well how can I make it an advantage in the game?

No flames...no trolls please a serious tactical question especially for Mustang, Jug and Dora jocks who fly fast...often the characteristic turns into a disadvantage when blackouts occur.

JG14_Josf
02-23-2004, 07:35 PM
I don't fly P-51s in the game much.

However, IL2compare shows the P-51 to have a big advantage in turn rates, even at high speed, against the 109s when flaps are out.

In which case angles tactics should work.

For the Jug, which I also do not fly much in the game, energy tactics are more appropriate.

Try sustained turn techniques, two circle or nose to tail turns, and only turn at no less than vertical maneuvering speed unless a pitch back gravity assited reversal is used at the top of a zoom climb.

The Jug is an ideal plane for team tactics. Most opponents will latch onto a Jug expecting a easy kill and not see the wingman.

With a keen eye for relative energy states the Jug can extend or drag with a high speed dive.

I think the key is to be defensive when the enemy shows the first sign of any angles advantage and then only return to offense with a significant energy advantage. Meanwhile the wingman should be set-up during your extension.

Sustained turn techniques may work well with the Jug, they should be ideal for the Mustang.

ZG77_Lignite
02-23-2004, 07:53 PM
Hopefully Josf will give us some more information on energy fighting, as it is a fascinating subject, and he is quite informed.

But, speaking of your specific request: high speed turn advantage is not capitilized upon by 'turning inside' your opponent (which it sounds like what you are trying to do, indicated from your high speed elevator authority line), this is the age old turnradius vs turnrate dilema. I believe historically the tactic(s) used are to maintain/gain an energy advantage over the enemy. This energy advantage is then easily (at some point or another) turned into a a kill solution.

Though I'm far from an expert Bulldog, I'm thinking that if your blacking out (in a serious 'lose control' type of fashion) then you are pulling to hard on the stick (well you probably realize this). Pulling that high of G is (to me at least, again, I'm no expert) indicative of a high energy bleed situation, which is not what you want. Unless I'm mistaken, no WWII aircraft can maintain speed/altitude (energy state) while pulling excessively high blackout G's (jets/rockets excluded). You need to conserve that energy (high speed) by storing it as altitude, and saty inside your fighters (Jug, Pony, Dora) best energy fighting envelope. As long as your fighter is the superior energy fighter, sooner or later your going to be at such an obvious advantage that you 'can't' lose.

ZG77_Lignite
02-23-2004, 07:54 PM
Oops, well there you go, Josf beat me to it.

Cyrano
02-23-2004, 09:14 PM
Hey Josf, could you please direct me to where I can download the latest version of Il2compare. I have an older version that doesn't include the p-51 and a few others.
Thanks.

JG14_Josf
02-23-2004, 11:49 PM
Someone posted a link to IL2compare in this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=286103712&r=229106022#229106022)

Lignite,
Thanks for the compliment.

Much of the information I have managed to digest on the subject of energy fighting can be found in Robert Shaw's book titled "Fighter Combat Tactics and Manuevering"

Two things that may be worth looking into concerning your post involve turn performance.

If a plane has a turn rate advantage but a turn radius disadvantage then two circle or nose to tail geometry works in favor of the higher turn rate plane.

The other important turn performance fact involves g force. Maximum turn performance occurs at the highest g possible only at the slowest speed possible.
This may seem to be confusing. It should be intuitive, because g force is the result of lift and thrust which make the plane turn.
The higher the lift and thrust the more g force generated causing the plane to turning.
If a plane could generate 1 gazilion times the force of gravity it would have very impressive turn performance.
When considering maximum turn performance the factor of g force is not so hard to understand.
Any plane will turn the fastest rate when generating the highest g force.
It may seem confusing at first when trying to understand the relationship of g force and velocity as these two factors effect turn performance.
But if velocity is considered separate from g force then the concept becomes clear.
The faster a plane goes the longer it takes to turn a circle.
This is simple no?
G force and velocity is required to turn a circle.
Now imagine two planes that generate the same g force in a turn. For example say both planes generate 7 times the force of gravity in a turn.
Imagine one plane is going 800kph at 7g and the other plane is going 200kph at 7g.
Which plane turns at a faster rate?
G force is constant but one plane is going so much faster that it takes a longer time to get around the circle.
OK so it is confusing. The missing factor is time.
It takes the faster plane a lot more time to get around the circle because both planes are turning with the same g force.

The planes in IL2/FB all black out at the same constant g force factor.
Not all the planes in IL2/FB can generate enough g force to black out the pilot at the same speed.
Some planes can turn 7 times the force of gravity at slower speeds than other planes.
So which plane will have a higher turn rate at 7g?
Try out each plane in the sim.
Start a nose low turn at high speed and keep the stick pulled back just enough to grey out the screen. Dive down more if speed decreases too slow and level out more if the speed decreases too fast. Keep decreasing speed in a nose low turn until grey out is no longer possible and note the speed when grey out is no longer possible.
While you are doing these tests go ahead and record the session and turn smoke on.
What should be clear during the playback is that turn rate increases as speed decreases from a very high speed greyed out turn to a slower speed greyed out turn and then turn rate decreases when speed decreases slower than the point where grey out is still possible.

The speed where turn performance is maximized is that point where grey out is still possible, no faster and no slower.
Turn performance is maximized with the highest g force at the slowest speed.

Someone turning at this corner velocity will maximize his turn performance and someone in the same plane turning at any speed above or below this speed will not be turning as fast.
The plane turning faster or slower will be turning at a slower rate proportional to the speed difference. In other words if you turn at a much higher rate your turn performance will be much less, and if you turn at a much slower speed your turn performance (at least turn rate) will be much less.

Which brings us back to turn geometry.

The slower plane may be better off using nose to nose angles tactics while the faster plane goes for nose to tail energy tactics.

I tried to explain things, as I know them, in the above long winded post.

For anyone still interested in reading this garbage I'm going to cut and past another example of my effort to communicate what I know or think I know about this subject.

as follows:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For practical applications; the slowest speed where black out is still possible is corner speed.

Any speed greater than the slowest speed possible where blackout is still possible will reduce turn rate and increase turn radius, because too much speed makes for a larger circle.

Think about what makes a plane turn and it becomes clear why black out is so important.

If a player could hack the game or if a real pilot was able to withstand 100 times the force of gravity then that player or that pilot could turn a very fast turn and a very small circle.

The game and real pilots have a limit to which they can tolerate g force due to acceleration such as what happens when a plane turns.

In the game each player can stand the same amount of g force. So it might seem correct then that each plane will have the same corner velocity. However this is not true and should not be true because velocity itself is as important as g force.

When I was a kid and even still today I can find and ride a round platform that spins in the middle on a bearing, this childrens ride can be found at many local parks, along with a slide and swings.

The kids like to be spun around on this ride until they puke. The faster the ride is spun around the more the kids like it.

What happens on this ride is: if a kid sits in the middle, right on top of the bearing axis, the world goes around and around but the kid doesn't get thrown off the ride. As soon as the kid starts to move toward the edge of the ride the g forces become greater as he moves further out from center. If the other kids or the parent is spinning the ride too fast then by the time the kid gets to the hand rail at the edge of the spinning platform he will not have enough strength to hang on, off he goes into the grass or dirt and if he has not yet lost his lunch then he will want to get back on the ride. The parent must slow things down some.

I think that the reason the g force is greater as the kid moves out from the center is a function of speed. The turn rate is held constant on this ride because it is one solid round plate. A kid placed anywhere on this plate will spin the same number of revolutions per minute.

Back to the airplane business; if one plane can go slower and still generate as much g force then this is similar to a kid that is not as far out on the round plate compared to the kid that is on the edge of the plate. The problem with this analogy is that the kid on the outside is not only going faster but he is experiencing more g force than the kid further toward the center of the plate, because turn rate is held constant on this ride.

So if a plane was able to have the same turn rate as another plane but had to go faster to get that turn rate than his turn radius would be larger and like the boy on the outside of the ride: the pilot would have to withstand more g force than the pilot with the slower velocity turning a smaller turn radius; like the boy closer to the center of the ride.

Just like the boy being thrown off the ride, because he could no longer hold onto the hand rail, the pilot going faster would no longer be able to hold the stick back in an effort to turn at the same turn rate as the plane going slower, the pilot going faster with a wider turn radius is going to let go of the stick as he blacks out in the turn while the pilot turning the same turn rate at a slower speed with a tighter turn radius is able to hold onto his turn because he is not yet blacking out.

The reason that one plane may be required to go faster in a turn than another plane while generating the same amount of g force is differences in weight, thrust, and lift.

The boy on the outside holding onto the rail may be a fat boy, he could not stay inside near the light boy, as the parent spun the ride around and around the fat boy always falls off the ride first.

I hope this helps.

Like vertical maneuvering speed; corner velocity is a very important factor when evaluating your planes capabilities, however it is more important to know energy loss rates and even more imporatant still to know how your performance capabilities compare to the opponent's.

Knowing corner speed alone is not going to help much in combat.

Take any plane and go real fast, then turn hard enough to almost black out, use a nose low turn to control deceleration, as the plane slows down make a note of the speed where blacking out is no longer possible.
That speed is corner speed.
At that speed your turn rate will be maximized and your turn radius will be very close to minimum.
Going any slower than this will only decrease turn rate and will decrease turn radius by a very small amount.
Going faster than corner speed will either cause black out or decrease turn rate and increase turn radius.

If you try turning at corner speed against a plane with a slower corner speed you will not turn as good as the slower plane.

If you try turning at corner speed against a plane with a higher corner speed you will always turn at a faster rate, however the plane with the higher corner speed can slow down quick and turn a marginally tighter turn radius. This will give him better possition at a high loss rate of relative energy.

OK sorry for going on so long. No big deal. I like to write.

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Mon February 23 2004 at 11:07 PM.]

LestWeForget
02-24-2004, 12:02 AM
P51 at say 20 000 ft, with a 109 closing on his 6.
P51 driver goes into zero G power dive, 109 follows.
Pretty soon that P51 is doing 450 mph plus, if the 109 driver is keen, he's doing very nearly the same.
At that kind of speed, the P51 can pull up much faster than the 109 can, infact if the whole scene was started at 10k, not 20, and the 109 driver wasnt on the ball, he may find himself unable to pull out at all.

Sure, when you pull your Pony out of that screaming dive, things are gonna get a little hazy to say the least, but anyone that was following close behind in your dive sure isnt going to be able to hit you. In a 109, he'll either be out cold himself, or too busy trying not to lawndart.

PS when people talk about using flaps in a fight, they dont mean whack 'em down a notch and leave them there.....you only put them down when you actually need them to make a hard turn or whatever, the rest of the time, you keep them up so your drag is as low as possible.

Zen--
02-24-2004, 12:28 AM
My experience in FB is that almost nothing can pull the same degrees per second as the Dora at very high speed....650kph+

As the speed drops to the neighborhood of 380-480kph, the Dora can turn like a Yak or La7 at slow speed can. (how they seem to magically swap ends...the Dora can too, at high speed) From what I have seen the corner velocity of the Dora is very high and bleeds a lot of energy, which is why you only see it starting at high speed...anything less than 480ish and you burn off the E so fast you don't get the nose around for full effect but within that band it's a very efficient turner.

I don't know what the mustangs corner velocity is but it must be fairly close to the Dora's, from all the 1 on 1's I've had the two planes seem to be the most evenly matched, possibly the best matchup in the game all things considered.


For any high speed manuevers, the trick is to ease into the turn and not to yank back on the stick as hard as you can. Not only will blackout come on, but the plane will usually stall as well. With the Dora when I want to make a high speed turn (usually vertical) I pull slightly back on the stick and then increase fairly quickly until grey-out occurs. You can be pretty rough with the D9 but most things seem to depend on gentleness when beginning any particular manuever, sort of like warming up for the move in a manner of speaking.

It's hard to describe the amount of time needed to ease into high speed turns...there is a definate need for it, but the big thing is familiarity with your plane. After enough time in the saddle, the plane flies itself really, you just look where you want to go and the plane does it, without you having to think about it if that makes sense.

So my advice would be to watch your speed as you make turns and get a feel for your angular rate, which is how many degrees per second your nose moves across the horizon. Watch as the speed drops and try to compare to how fast the nose continues to move, that will give you a ball park on your corner velocity speed band. I don't fly the mustang often, but from having enough of them chase me around I'm reasonably sure the Dora and the mustang have the same corner velocity, which ought to be around 380-480 kph.

To be frank, I don't think the mustang can stay with a Dora in a turn at very high speeds, I've not seen a plane yet that could IIRC, it's one of the best defensive moves especially against Yaks or La's...dive until you reach 700kph then do a sharp pull up. Even if he stays above and doesn't fully commit to the diving pursuit, he's not going to be able to get inside your pullup without blacking out. (at least so far as I've seen, I don't do this on a regular basis but it has worked in the past every time I've done it)

My estimate of turn performance is that the mustang edges out the Dora in a no flaps turn, but the Dora has the edge in a combat flap turn. Overall agility goes to the Dora because with the better roll rate, it can change direction faster than the mustang and do turns in umpredictable directions which comes in handy.

Not really sure if I've answered your question, but hopefully I've given some insight into how the Dora performs at high speed. I can't say it's historically correct, but this is the way it seems in FB.

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

BfHeFwMe
02-24-2004, 05:40 AM
High speed loose inverted cuban eights, keep it straight and loose, until you hit bottom that is, than pull like you mean it. You wind up going straight up, it only works once or twice, so vary it a little, there's options of staying low and keeping that 700 Kph a while. Not even an ace La-7 can keep up with one even starting below 1000. Occasionally get a nice underbelly shot on the wingman on the way up.

bodaw
02-24-2004, 07:38 AM
Thanks Josf and Zen for the comprehensive explanations. As a newbie I really appreciate that you guys take the time to explain what you all know.

Eventhough, I've been flying general aviation airplanes for quite sometime in the real world, I take FB quite seriously. It's like a flying chess game.

Josf, I've downloaded all the tracks you've made from Michapama's website. They were very educational, thank you. Do you have more tracks that I could download?

Zen, I haven't seen you on War Clouds for a while. Thank you also for the insight into Doras. That'll be my next ride. I'm currently still trying to tame the 109s. Did you ever finish making some tracks for the Dora also?

Thanks in advance.

Takecare

Blutarski2004
02-24-2004, 08:34 AM
I think that the issue really under investigation here is &gt;&gt;sustained&lt;&lt; turn rate - i.e., the maximum turn rate possible without sacrificing altitude. As with climb-rate, sustained high-speed turn rate is directly related to the availability of specific excess power. Specific excess power = the engine power available in excess of the amount required to maintain level flight at a given altitude. Since engine power falls off with altitude, sustained turn capability does also.

As an example of this in action, consider the P47 versus a Bf109. The critical altitude of the P47 powerplant was very considerably higher than that of the typical Bf109 engine. Consequently, the P47 would enjoy a respectable advantage in available excess power at, say, 30,000 ft. The P47 driver could choose to utilize that excess power in several different ways: he could commit it to higher speed; he could commit it to climb; he could commit to a turn. The 109, with less excess power at that altitude, would be unable to match the P47. This is why wartime P47 drivers anecdotally reported that, while their planes provided mediocre maneuverability at lower altitudes, they displayed superior maneuverability at high altitude. WE might only be talking about the difference between a 2G versus a 1.5G sustained turn capability at those altitudes, but it was an advantage none the less, and would also be reflected in the P47's ability to sacrifice less altitude when a turn exceeded sustained turn performance limits.

A logical implication of this is that perhaps the observed habit of German pilots diving away from encounters may have been motivated as much by a desire to bring the engagement to lower altitudes where the performance advantage would revert to their aircraft. This make more sense to me than attempting to believe that German pilots stupidly insisted upon diving away by simple habit in spite of the fact that a year of combat had shown American fighters to possess superior overall dive performance.

BLUTARSKI

Zen--
02-24-2004, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bodaw:
Thanks Josf and Zen for the comprehensive explanations. As a newbie I really appreciate that you guys take the time to explain what you all know.

Eventhough, I've been flying general aviation airplanes for quite sometime in the real world, I take FB quite seriously. It's like a flying chess game.

Josf, I've downloaded all the tracks you've made from Michapama's website. They were very educational, thank you. Do you have more tracks that I could download?

Zen, I haven't seen you on War Clouds for a while. Thank you also for the insight into Doras. That'll be my next ride. I'm currently still trying to tame the 109s. Did you ever finish making some tracks for the Dora also?

Thanks in advance.

Takecare<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been poking around BM357 or not flying as much these past few weeks actually, but was on WC last night for a good number of hours. No tracks made, but my problem is that I am a perfectionist and all the tracks I make are too 'sloppy' when I review them and so I keep waiting for that perfect moment. Guess I need to just start recording and not worry so much about how it looks in the end, so heck with it, I'll get you some general fighting tracks if you like, maybe you can pick up some pointers from those.


As for the chess game...thats what is so cool about FB these days. While many things seem to have gotten a bit more out of wack, many things have gotten better (at least in relative plane vs plane terms) which allows you to really play the chess match, much more so than in IL2. Things were a bit more cut and dried imho then, performance felt more absolute too. In FB, things feel more dynamic and this is where the Dora shines.

I've never been out to convert everyone to the plane, it just pains me some to see it passed over in favor of the obvious attractions of big guns and tight turns...FB is more than that and really I recommend for people to explore more than just what they do right now and to try different settings too.

If all the cooler FR guys hadn't made intelligent comments on what is good about FR flying, I might never have gotten to experience servers like BM357, GreaterGreen, WarClouds and others...because I was turned off by the difficulty presented. After reading their sincere opinions, I felt like it might be worth the learning curve...and my enjoyment of the game has increased dramatically. (thanks guys btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

I like the Dora for a lot of reasons and if I can pass on some tips for it that give others a chance to see a slightly different side of the game, then I'm happy. To each his own ofcourse but for me personally, the most satisfication comes from experiencing the game on many levels, but I wouldn't have known about some of them if others hadn't spoken of their experiences. The Dora seems to be a generally shunned aircraft but it really doesn't have to be.

So here I am, just pointing out some alternatives http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I'll let you know when I get a few tracks finished too.


&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

JG14_Josf
02-24-2004, 09:20 AM
Sustained Turn Techniques (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm)

IL2compare (http://sturmovik.webzdarma.cz/download/utility/il2c_v22.rar)

Bodaw,

I can remember my first exposure to combat flight sims and I can remember the many patient helpful people all along the way up until now who have helped satisfy my need to learn more, so I hope this efforts continues to pay a little of it back, thanks.

The first link above is an out of date explanation of sustained turn techniques.

The second is the direct link to the very useful tool called IL2compare.

I've sent one more training track file to Michapma who may find reason to post it.

That one is called "Setup" where JG14_Jagr administers the coup de grace on a P-39 that follows my energy turn and extension.

Setup is another training file complete with text editing that reports the communication between wingmen.

Jagr calls ahead during the setup to direct my headings to a more favorable angle of attack.

The victim appears to be completely unaware of the setup.

Two things continue to generate a whole lot of fun for me in on-line combat flight simulation.

One is the surprise bounce when I can catch another player totaly unaware. This type of situation takes a lot of patience and at least some undertanding of human nature.

The other is a good team kill.

I have more fun dragging than shooting.

What the setup training track shows is just how valuable a team mate is in air combat. A good wingman is exactly like having another gunner that can be possitioned anywhere.

No longer is it neccessary to maneuver to point your guns at the opponent. Instead all that is required is just enough maneuvering and therefore energy loss to keep the target interested in following. The mobile gunner is then moved into possition.

I can fly around looking for targets knowing I have an incredible energy advantage. I only have to maneuver to get the opponents to point thier guns at me. Now how hard can that be?

In fact it is still not an easy thing to do and few players actually make good wingmen.

One other thing while I'm rambling along here concerns the concept of wingmen and skill improvement.

All that is required to fly a line abreast formation and maintian possition relative to your wingman during maneuvering can vastly improve a players combat capabilies even when the wingman is no longer available.

The difficulties in maintaining relative possition with your wingman are the same difficulties in maintaining relative possition with your target. When flying with a wingman your capacity to cope is taxed constantly from the moment the flight starts to the moment the flight ends.

OK one more thing.

I have another track file recorded during an on-line event where JG14_Hertt and I flew a double attack rotte while JG14_Jagr flew as high cover or more aptly JG14_Jagr flew the possition known as The Angel of Death

I have yet to edit this file with text. It runs for almost an hour.

bodaw
02-24-2004, 10:29 AM
Thank you Josf and Zen. It doesn't have to be the training tracks. I'll galdly look at the regular tracks. I'm sure, I'll still learn something.

Thanks and takecare

Maj_Death
02-24-2004, 12:36 PM
A high speed turn rate advantage can be decisive in high energy fights. For example, I engage an La-7 in my Fw-190A9 at 5000m. The La-7 has a 1,000m altitude advantage and so there is no hope winning right? Wrong, if I fly at 500km/h+ IAS the La-7 cannot turn or roll with me. In fact it can't even come close. By sacrificing altitude for speed I can force the La-7 to fight at a disadvantage. As altitude decreases I can play chicken with the ground. The La-7 is still on me at this point so I do a split-S at 700km/h and within 1000m of the dirt. I know I have plenty of room to pull out and go into a climb (albiet blacked out) but the La-7 cannot follow. If he tries to follow me he will almost certainly crash. If he does not follow me then I will end the manuever with atleast a km between us and near equal energy. On top of that I will be flying the opposite direction http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Of course these tricks only work if you are flying above 3000m so they don't work in most DF servers. Fortunatly they arn't needed very often either because the La-7's are buzzing around at 2000m while I'm pouncing on them from 5000m+.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The F7F Tigercat in Aces Over the Pacific is overmodeled.

Abbuzze
02-24-2004, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LestWeForget:
P51 at say 20 000 ft, with a 109 closing on his 6.
P51 driver goes into zero G power dive, 109 follows.
Pretty soon that P51 is doing 450 mph plus, if the 109 driver is keen, he's doing very nearly the same.
At that kind of speed, the P51 can pull up much faster than the 109 can, infact if the whole scene was started at 10k, not 20, and the 109 driver wasnt on the ball, he may find himself unable to pull out at all.

Sure, when you pull your Pony out of that screaming dive, things are gonna get a little hazy to say the least, but anyone that was following close behind in your dive sure isnt going to be able to hit you. In a 109, he'll either be out cold himself, or too busy trying not to lawndart.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to say this, but this is a myth! Pulling high G´s in 109 is much less comfortable and need more force than the same in P51, but the limiting factor is the pilot, with the right trimset you could pull in a 109 to a blackout from a 800km/h 80deg dive- witht the wrong trimset you have to use the trimwheel... but you have to be carefull- the trim in the BF was very good, you have to push the stick foreward then, to be not blacked out by the violant reaction of the ME...

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

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Bull_dog_
02-24-2004, 07:57 PM
well I appreciate all of the discussion...I decided to try Josf's tactics on line tonight and let me tell you what happened...

I am flying a Fw-190A-9 and my opponent is flying a Yak 9K....as we approach at the merge the yak climbs above me and circles in behind me....I go into a gentle nose down spiral picking up speed to about 500+ Km's per hour...interestingly the yak is content with following me so I slow down by turning tighter. I get the Fw under corner speed (about 380 Km/hr) and the Yak begins to turn inside me. I nose down and loosen the turn to gains some speed back and the Yak gets closer and closer. There are no Icons, but external views so I time it right...pull up into a zoom climb, add MW and full power and hang in the air. We both stall out at the same time and I miss my quick shot....we repeat it all over again...almost the exact same scenario only this time the Yak stalls out 1 second before I do and I land the old 30mm Uber cannon on the nose of the Yak putting him down...he he he.

It worked this time anyways...I was trying to set up a similar situation but it is difficult to do so when the other guy's team has you outnumbered 3to1 so I died happily ever after...

JG14_Josf
02-24-2004, 09:00 PM
Bull_dog_,

Thanks for the feedback.

Sustained turn tactics come from Robert Shaw's Book "Fighter Combat"

It does sound like you understand the concept.

It works really well when the opponent pulls hard on the stick to get the shot and in so doing he burns up energy at a faster rate.

It really pays to keep an eye on the air speed indicator to keep track of your own energy level.

I also like to keep the FW190 at around 400kph which is enough to get the bird going straight up.

Don't forget to turn nose to tail after each shot.

If the opponet turns toward you then you turn away and go the long way around for another sustained turn.

Your description describes a situation where the opponent is burning more energy since your second pass allowed for more time to reverse at the top of the zoom, and that is exactly what is supposed to happen.

Good luck!