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View Full Version : Hope in this one we at least get a villian as ruthless and as calculating...



talljesper
06-29-2014, 01:30 PM
The "hero," or at the very least can put up some kind of fight, be it throwing capable mooks in harms way or just plain outwitting and outfighting the lead. Because it's always been something that has bugged me with the AC series, is just how weak their big bad's are. The only villain who I can think who repersented any threat at all to the player character was Cesare Borgia from AC:B, but even he was a bit weak...

So yeah, it's an area I hope see's improvement in the future.

SHADOWGARVIN
06-29-2014, 01:46 PM
I disagree. Cesare was a badass!! He was awesome. Haytham wasn't weak either, neither was Al Mualim.

Aphex_Tim
06-29-2014, 02:20 PM
The "hero," or at the very least can put up some kind of fight, be it throwing capable mooks in harms way or just plain outwitting and outfighting the lead.

What, you mean like Haytham?

Also, I think Cesare was the worst of them all. That guy belonged in a Disney movie.

Megas_Doux
06-29-2014, 02:25 PM
More Haythams, less Borgias.!!!!!!!

steveeire
06-29-2014, 02:48 PM
You realise OP Pope Alexander VI was the most cold and calculating of all the AC antagonists yet.

D.I.D.
06-29-2014, 03:03 PM
More Haythams, less Borgias.!!!!!!!

They're as bad as each other. I know a lot of people think it's the most mind-blowing thing ever when a villain says, "We're not so different, you and I!", but I'd be quite happy never to see that again. Given the choice between ham-fisted attempts at sophisticated characterisation and the blunt deployment of pantomime villains, I'll take the pantomime villains every time.

The problem is that games writers, with very few exceptions, are not good enough to write professionally in any other field. While that's the case, the best thing they can do is make a story solid even if it is a bit silly. I'd love to see games with excellent writing standards, but they're not going to get there in baby steps. It will only change when the games studios buy in really great writers and allow them to have a strong voice in the design team as the game changes shape. Then we'll be able to have nuanced characters whose grey morality really means something.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 03:30 PM
More Haythams, less Borgias.!!!!!!!

This. :cool:

Megas_Doux
06-29-2014, 03:41 PM
They're as bad as each other. I know a lot of people think it's the most mind-blowing thing ever when a villain says, "We're not so different, you and I!", but I'd be quite happy never to see that again. Given the choice between ham-fisted attempts at sophisticated characterisation and the blunt deployment of pantomime villains, I'll take the pantomime villains every time.

The problem is that games writers, with very few exceptions, are not good enough to write professionally in any other field. While that's the case, the best thing they can do is make a story solid even if it is a bit silly. I'd love to see games with excellent writing standards, but they're not going to get there in baby steps. It will only change when the games studios buy in really great writers and allow them to have a strong voice in the design team as the game changes shape. Then we'll be able to have nuanced characters whose grey morality really means something.

Cesare Borgia was AWFUL ,every time he appeared on screen I wanted to turn the volume down. Not only his actions were hyper cliche, although I can live perfectly with that, but the voice acting was annoying and over the top, GUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARDS, UGH!!!!!

Although that is because the way ACB is directed, a pretty childish and cartoonish approach full childish and cartoonish characters that resemble a non funny version of this:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/DoRightCast.JPG

I swear to God that image DOES NOT represent Ezio rescuing Pantasilea from the french guy in ACB.

Adrian Hough, the actor who portrayed Haytham, almost got a BAFTA award fromhis performance......

steveeire
06-29-2014, 03:42 PM
They're as bad as each other. I know a lot of people think it's the most mind-blowing thing ever when a villain says, "We're not so different, you and I!", but I'd be quite happy never to see that again. Given the choice between ham-fisted attempts at sophisticated characterisation and the blunt deployment of pantomime villains, I'll take the pantomime villains every time.

The problem is that games writers, with very few exceptions, are not good enough to write professionally in any other field. While that's the case, the best thing they can do is make a story solid even if it is a bit silly. I'd love to see games with excellent writing standards, but they're not going to get there in baby steps. It will only change when the games studios buy in really great writers and allow them to have a strong voice in the design team as the game changes shape. Then we'll be able to have nuanced characters whose grey morality really means something.

Bioware has the best writers in the business.

http://i61.tinypic.com/347bts0.jpg

purplekurple
06-29-2014, 10:00 PM
Hopefully better than Torres. He was boring as hell.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:03 PM
Torres was practically non-existant for most of the game. And then in the end you just hop right over and kill him.

Most underwhelming villain ever.

Final baddie should have been Bart Roberts IMO.

Sure he was a bit cartoonishly evil but at least he was memorable.

Assassin_M
06-29-2014, 10:04 PM
Hopefully better than Torres. He was boring as hell.
Torres > Cesare and Rodrigo

Farlander1991
06-29-2014, 10:08 PM
Torres was practically non-existant for most of the game. And then in the end you just hop right over and kill him.

Most underwhelming villain ever.

Final baddie should have been Bart Roberts IMO.

Just because he was the Grand Master of the Templars and was killed last doesn't mean that he was the main antagonist of the story. Roberts was. Roberts is the villain. The death of Torres is not a 'defeat the main antagonist' kind of thing, it's to cement Edward's re-established point of view.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:09 PM
I disliked Rodrigo
I tolerated Al Mualim
I hardly remember Torres
I found Ceasare hilarious
I don't even remember the name of the Revelations villain
We ALL remember Charles Lee. Though a pretty good character, I feel he could have been handled better. But he is still probably the best of the bunch IMO.

If only Haytham was the final villain then I could say he was a good example IMO.

edit:

apparently Bart Roberts WAS the big baddie in AC IV. Well he was memorable. But still a bit cartoonishly evil. Interesting twist with the sage though.

steveeire
06-29-2014, 10:10 PM
Torres wasn't the main antagonist of AC4 though.

Assassin_M
06-29-2014, 10:11 PM
Al Muahad

:|

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:11 PM
Torres wasn't the main baddie?

#themoreyouknow

@M

typo

Assassin_M
06-29-2014, 10:14 PM
@M

typo
type the correct spelling then and i may spare you

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:15 PM
type the correct spelling then and i may spare you

Al Mualim

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc5bq81JEq1qjx6zto1_500.gif

Kirokill
06-29-2014, 10:16 PM
:|


type the correct spelling then and i may spare you

He is The Uniter. x) or the United.

steveeire
06-29-2014, 10:17 PM
Torres wasn't the main baddie?

#themoreyouknow

@M

typo

Roberts was the main antagonist, Torres was barely a problem for Edward.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:18 PM
Ehh if Torres wasnt the main baddie why was AC IV concluded with him then? It felt underwhelming IMO...

steveeire
06-29-2014, 10:21 PM
Ehh if Torres wasnt the main baddie why was AC IV concluded with him then? It felt underwhelming IMO...

I dunno why was Farcry 3 concluded with that other dude when Vaas was the main antagonist?

Farlander1991
06-29-2014, 10:22 PM
Torres wasn't the main baddie?

#themoreyouknow

Well, why would he be? From the story perspective?

Robert is the Shadow. He's every dark part of Edward. And he's the one who outdid Edward in every way. He's the only one who can lead Edward to his greatest desire (and whom Edward was searching for a long time because of that), and he's the one who took that away from Edward right under his nose. He's the adversary that Edward must overcome. And, since we're at it, he's the center of attention of Edward's hallucinated alcoholic dream.

Torres is not even the most important Templar in the game from story perspective. The most important one is Hornigold (for obvious reasons, I suppose).

People in the AC series have became very used to the trope that main antagonist = Grand Master or last kill, but that shouldn't be the required case. The reason why it's important to have Torres last, is because ACIV is a character-focused story. And from character perspective the last kill must be somebody against whom Edward has the most little personal vendetta, or personal reason to kill the person for some kind of growth, but at the same time a target that's important to die for the greater good. Ultimately, Torres IS the Grand Master of the Templar Order, and killing him IS for the greater good, (which is why as I said it is there to cement Edward's new persona that puts the greater good as the top priority), but that doesn't make him the main antagonist.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:25 PM
@steeve

yeah Vaas should have been more present.

I wonder why Ubi did that hmm...

@farlander

Eh. I already figured as much but I still would have preferred if Torres wasn't the final kill or was at least more memorable.

ze_topazio
06-29-2014, 11:33 PM
:|

Better than the commonly used "Al Muslim".

Jexx21
06-30-2014, 12:03 AM
AL MUSLIM
RODRIGO CHRISTO
CHRISTARE BORGIA
MANNUEL PELAGOS
CHARLES LEEK AND HAYTHAM CORNWAY (they worship vegetables)
BLACK BART

king-hailz
06-30-2014, 12:50 AM
Al Mualim was my favorite... he wasnt weak... maybe physically but he was just so wise and mysterious..m he was so cool... and the voice actor was perfect too....

Calvarok
06-30-2014, 04:35 AM
Your target's strength is supposed to be represented by their level of security, not their own skill. The point of an Assassination is to kill a person who has influence, not just strength or skill. You're not picking a fight with a worthy opponent like a Predator does. you're attempting to sneak in and strike at someone while they're at their most vulnerable, and be gone before anyone notices anything wrong.

Sure, some of the targets can be stronger than others, but in the end you should usually be able to kill them before they ever know you're there, or at least before they have a chance to react. I'm not a fan of being forced into a bossfight with the final target. And Arno's new eagle sense ability seems designed to allow the target to communicate things without having to force the player to be detected by targets and have conversations with them before killing them.

purplekurple
06-30-2014, 09:39 AM
I thought we were talking aboot grandmasters here?

itsamea-mario
06-30-2014, 09:45 AM
Cesare was a decent character i reckon, not the most devious villain, but a decent character.

LieutenantRex
06-30-2014, 02:01 PM
I don't really get all the hate for Cesare. He wasn't the most conniving villain in the series, but he certainly isn't as bad as many of you are making him out to be.

He's a ruthless character, and a narcissist. He killed his own brother to secure power, used his sister for pleasure, and devised a plot that was present throughout the whole game to overthrow his father as pope. Sooo Disney, amirite?

He had one of his best friends killed by strangulation because he failed him once. He isn't your typical baddie. He had a looming, yet somewhat ambient presence in the game, appearing sporadically throughout ACB until the very end. Just because he called for guards doesn't make him a coward. He was poisoned and very much weakened. Would you think it wise to fight someone when you're doubled over in pain every other minute? Team Cesare.

SixKeys
06-30-2014, 02:06 PM
I don't really get all the hate for Cesare. He wasn't the most conniving villain in the series, but he certainly isn't as bad as many of you are making him out to be.

He's a ruthless character, and a narcissist. He killed his own brother to secure power, used his sister for pleasure, and devised a plot that was present throughout the whole game to overthrow his father as pope. Sooo Disney, amirite?

Well....

http://www.mylionking.com/fan/art/Artists/Disney/Portraits/th.php/Scar.jpg

Apart from the sister.... :p

itsamea-mario
06-30-2014, 02:09 PM
Well, i guess Scar is based on Claudius from Hamlet, who is your typical Renaissance era villain, so i guess the two are more alike than it seems.

And with Cesare there is also that whole thing that he's trying to impress his father.
Then his father tries to kill him.
So Cesare kills him first.


Also Cesare is really cool in The Borgias...

Locopells
06-30-2014, 06:20 PM
Have to say, I go with all of the last three posts. Although, I haven't seen The Borgias.

pacmanate
06-30-2014, 06:28 PM
Have to say, I go with all of the last three posts. Although, I haven't seen The Borgias.

It's just a massive orgy really.