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WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 08:12 PM
http://kotaku.com/assassins-creed-unity-is-bringing-back-the-series-great-1596479794


ĚThe idea that combat will be tougher thanks in part to the removal of unblockable assassin combos. "What we wanted to do in ACU is to make a game where you're playing like an assassin," Amancio said. "How we did that is, first, we made combat much more challenging. If the path of least resistance is to fight, that's what you're going to do." The difficulty of combat will encourage players to sneak and it will force them to learn how to more effectively fight different foes. Some enemies will be too fast for dodging to be effective, others too strong for you to parry. And if there are a lot of enemies? They will shoot and kill you. "More than five, you're going to get killed."

Don't get me wrong, Im all for adding more challenge to AC unity's combat, but from what it says here it seems AC unity is going to confront you with some combat situations that are impossible to meet with success.

Shouldn't all combat be at least possible albeit really really hard when dealing with large numbers of guards? You are suppose to be a badass superhuman assassin after all. One of my favorite things to do in AC 1 was meet wave after wave of guards and defeating entire battalions of them. It wasn't the easiest thing to do, well at least I would argue, if you didn't keep yourself on your toes, you'd die. I think that at least as long as the player can sustain a high enough amount of focus, defeating high numbers of enemies should be at least narrowly possible. And once you start slipping up and get hit, its time to run.

Idk, what does everyone else think?

JustPlainQuirky
06-26-2014, 08:15 PM
"More than five, you're going to get killed."

Arno weakest Assassin Ancestor confirmed. :rolleyes:

And I'm fine with harder difficulty as long as it doesnt get frustrating.

marvelfannumber
06-26-2014, 08:19 PM
"More than five, you're going to get killed"

Good.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-26-2014, 08:22 PM
*gulp* As long as the combat isn't AC1, I'm good X_X;;;

And I'll just avoid the guards altogether lol

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 08:24 PM
I know a lot of people want the harder difficulty which forces the player to do stealth. I mean I agree, the path of least resistance should be by stealth, but combat should be possible at least. Just very hard. I guess. XD


*gulp* As long as the combat isn't AC1, I'm good X_X;;;

And I'll just avoid the guards altogether lol
Lol AC 1 wasn't that hard. Not like AC 3's wave after wave of commander hessians on notoriety 3 XD 8 of those guys and your down XD Kinda. actually you could beat those guys pretty easy come to think of it. block + disarm then attack really fast. XD Just annoying I guess.

I guess I just don't like the idea that some enemies are "too fast" to dodge. You're an assassin, stealth, agility, and quick reflexes are suppose to be your strong point lol.

Sushiglutton
06-26-2014, 08:25 PM
Hard to say until I have tested. I am sceptical of combat in AC in general since they have had so many chances without delivering. Even though melee combat is probably my favourite type of gameplay, for AC I'll be more than happy if parkour and stealth are solid!

JustPlainQuirky
06-26-2014, 08:25 PM
no more being Rambo when playing assassin's creed.

What a shame.

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 08:31 PM
no more being Rambo when playing assassin's creed.

What a shame.

XD

ACfan443
06-26-2014, 08:38 PM
"More than five, you're going to get killed."

I don't believe them. It's the same, tired old assurances we've been getting for the past two years.
AC3: 'you'll die instantly if you get in the way of the firing line' - roughly half of the health bar is lost only. Virtually bulletproof after the ring is equipped.
AC4: 'brutes/gunners can kill you in only one or two shots' - no, they can't.

The difficulty will inevitably be lowered once the play testers start moaning.

TheDanteEX
06-26-2014, 08:39 PM
I think dodging should really be our biggest advantage. I liked AC1's realistic sword fighting, but since we're not dealing with those thick of swords anymore, it should be more about dodging and then getting a clean hit; those are our counters. Most hits should be blocked, not by a certain archetypes, but by any enemy paying attention. Looking for an opening and staying on the defensive is what I would love to see.

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 08:48 PM
I think dodging should really be our biggest advantage. I liked AC1's realistic sword fighting, but since we're not dealing with those thick of swords anymore, it should be more about dodging and then getting a clean hit; those are our counters. Most hits should be blocked, not by a certain archetypes, but by any enemy paying attention. Looking for an opening and staying on the defensive is what I would love to see.

I agree exactly. AC 1 was my favorite way of handling melee combat then and since. Since they're using thinner swords, a dodge/parry system would be the best as opposed to brute force. Then when there's a hole in the enemies defense, time to strike. Like trying to mimic fencing type gameplay. It seems the games too far in development to change it to this tho. :/

Hans684
06-26-2014, 08:50 PM
If combat still is easy(can be confirmed when we have the game) they should take away the auto-lock and give more health to guards. Without the auto-lock the combat would be entirely skill based since there is no longer any counter kills.

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 09:02 PM
Ya know, one thing they've never had in an assassins' game is a difficulty setting. They could have easy, where you can just brush through. Normal/moderate at about the difficulty the games are already set at, and then hard and/or a "master assassins" difficulty, where 1-3 hits by a sword/gunshot wound will kill the player, forcing the player to really take advantage of all the game's mechanics. I'm surprised they haven't yet done it this far into the series. It could be part of getting 100% sync. Complete all missions on master difficulty and unlock invincibility or something.

jd55513
06-26-2014, 09:31 PM
All this must point a very AC1 and ACII feel which means..... The Animus training rooms MUST and SHOULD return Brotherhood was so much fun practicing our combat prowess and becoming skilled with the timed counter kills it was also good to have the parkour and stealth simulations. and with Co-OP the Brotherhood training rooms could be even more fun.

dxsxhxcx
06-26-2014, 09:33 PM
I HIGHLY doubt they're going to deliver what they're promising, the combat system will probably have some noticiable changes but I have my doubts about it being as challenging as they're painting it to be, I'm certain that once we get used to how it works (and I bet it won't take long) it'll become the ride in the park it always was...

Sesheenku
06-26-2014, 09:35 PM
http://kotaku.com/assassins-creed-unity-is-bringing-back-the-series-great-1596479794



Don't get me wrong, Im all for adding more challenge to AC unity's combat, but from what it says here it seems AC unity is going to confront you with some combat situations that are impossible to meet with success.

Shouldn't all combat be at least possible albeit really really hard when dealing with large numbers of guards? You are suppose to be a badass superhuman assassin after all. One of my favorite things to do in AC 1 was meet wave after wave of guards and defeating entire battalions of them. It wasn't the easiest thing to do, well at least I would argue, if you didn't keep yourself on your toes, you'd die. I think that at least as long as the player can sustain a high enough amount of focus, defeating high numbers of enemies should be at least narrowly possible. And once you start slipping up and get hit, its time to run.

Idk, what does everyone else think?

No. No you're not supposed to be superhuman.

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 09:37 PM
All this must point a very AC1 and ACII feel which means..... The Animus training rooms MUST and SHOULD return Brotherhood was so much fun practicing our combat prowess and becoming skilled with the timed counter kills it was also good to have the parkour and stealth simulations. and with Co-OP the Brotherhood training rooms could be even more fun.

Lol ya I miss those... XD

Jexx21
06-26-2014, 09:38 PM
I HIGHLY doubt they're going to deliver what they're promising, the combat system will probably have some noticiable changes but I have my doubts about it being as challenging as they're painting it to be, I'm certain that once we get used to how it works (and I bet it won't take long) it'll become the ride in the park it always was...

no counter kills, enemies are supposed to actively attack you and not just "wait in line"

dxsxhxcx
06-26-2014, 09:49 PM
no counter kills, enemies are supposed to actively attack you and not just "wait in line"

keep the parry button (a.k.a "save your ***" button) pressed, wait until you have an opening to attack (and we have plenty because guards are dumb) or move if more than one enemy is attacking you, if an enemy tries to shoot you just press the human shield button if someone is near you or run to a guard next to you to use him..

this is another problem with AC's combat, once you press the parry button, nothing besides bullets or an attack with a heavy weapon (that aren't common so we don't need to worry about them) can break our defense, all you need to do is run around a little to regenerate a little health and you're good to go, in AC1 if we tried to do that guards could break our defense or grab us, now they just keep attacking with their wood swords as if we we were a practice dummy..

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 09:56 PM
No. No you're not supposed to be superhuman.

I was exaggerating. Obviously there has to be limitations, but you're still suppose to be playing as a character who overall, is in better shape/ more able than your average guard is what I meant. That's just what I think at least lol. By no means does this mean remove all difficulty from the game tho.


or move if more than one enemy is attacking you, if an enemy tries to shoot you just press the human shield button if someone is near you or run to a guard next to you to use him..


Ahh this is one thing. All the games in the Ezio trilogy provided you with the option to hold a single guard hostage. Then mysteriously, the feature disappeared and turned into an option that queued in 2 seconds before an enemy decides to shoot.

In a more modern version of the series, shouldn't holding people hostage be a vital option to a player strategy?

Example: Line of guards about to shoot, assassin takes one guard hostage. Captain of patrol decides whether to risk letting the assassin escape uninhibited, or fire anyway with a chance of wounding the assassin, but killing the poor fellow guard.

Anywho, Methinkso

ACfan443
06-26-2014, 10:17 PM
no counter kills, enemies are supposed to actively attack you and not just "wait in line"

Yet they do just that. The brute's just standing there at the end, frustratingly devoid of any sane reaction.

http://youtu.be/NWvJq-pLeko

40:50

It looks no different to any of the previous combat systems. From what I've seen in the demos it's more akin to AC2's/AC1's combat, which is more of downgrade than an 'overhaul' as they're touting it. I'll try and reserve full judgment until I see more footage.

pacmanate
06-26-2014, 10:23 PM
"More than five, you're going to get killed"

Good.

Ha! Come on, how many times have they said they made combat harder. They said it for AC3, AC4 they said they made combat slower to make it "challenging".

This "more than 5" thing will only work if they dont do the stupid 3 people circle thing and 2 waiting in the background thing.

Farlander1991
06-26-2014, 10:29 PM
If their system is in essence AC1 combat without the counter-attack, then I'll be the happiest person ever. AC1 combat system without counter-attack is the best combat system in AC so far.

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 10:31 PM
Ha! Come on, how many times have they said they made combat harder. They said it for AC3, AC4 they said they made combat slower to make it "challenging".

This "more than 5" thing will only work if they dont do the stupid 3 people circle thing and 2 waiting in the background thing.

I think one of the reasons they don't is its hard to program. How do you set up combat where 10 enemies can get in close without overlapping/bumping in and out
? and how do you set counter attacking when 3 guys attack you at intervals of .2 seconds later? Do you create cutscenes like in AC 3 for countering two guards where you don't get attacked during? If so that's still pretty unrealistic.

Maybe they could interrupt counter attack scenes and leave you with an option to stop what your doing, counter the third guy, but this can become pretty tedious. Idk They could take it that far, but that's like 5X the work and animations and it all has to work fluently. It would be amazing tho if they could pull it off.

Kakuzu745
06-26-2014, 10:32 PM
I hope it is...combat in AC3 and Ac4 is so ridiculously easy...getting rid of those chain combos would be the best thing to ever happen to this franchise.

JustPlainQuirky
06-26-2014, 10:34 PM
looks like I won't be able to kill a bunch of soldiers in masses and shape them into swastikas

2/10 will not buy

dxsxhxcx
06-26-2014, 10:35 PM
If their system is in essence AC1 combat without the counter-attack, then I'll be the happiest person ever. AC1 combat system without counter-attack is the best combat system in AC so far.

they need to make the guards faster as well (this alone IMO would've solved many of AC's combat problems), this way we'll be forced to use the set of skills we have and not just attack, attack, attack to survive a tough situation.

JustPlainQuirky
06-26-2014, 10:39 PM
Yeah 1 major problem with Assassin's Creed is you have so many weapons that basically do the same thing at around the same time. Ex: Hidden blade, tomahawk, and sword.


Really the only difference is whether you kill somone in 2 seconds or 1.5 second.

Farlander1991
06-26-2014, 10:43 PM
they need to make the guards faster as well, this way we'll be forced to use the set of skills we have and not just attack, attack, attack to survive a tough situation.

While true, I can live without it if it's not implemented. AC1 combat without counters is still fun even when they are slowish and you focus on the offensive, because not only you have to time your strikes properly for combo moves - enemies can dodge/parry/other things as well, which means even when on offensive you have to keep on your toes.

Fights with Templars in AC1 before counter-attack is available are just so intense and awesome (and also make you feel how cheap counter-attacks are when you're on receiving side because those bastards like to do them).

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 10:44 PM
I hope it is...combat in AC3 and Ac4 is so ridiculously easy...getting rid of those chain combos would be the best thing to ever happen to this franchise.

I agree with this. I was never a fan of the combos since the beginning. I thought it was over-simplification of the game. The only reason I was okay with it was because Ezio and hes supposed to be so great at fighting. But I always thought AC combat should be based on timing and spur-of-the-moment decisions. Whether to do on kind of attack, or block, dodge, or to get out of the situation because it was becoming too much.


enemies can dodge/parry/other things as well, which means even when on offensive you have to keep on your toes.

Fights with Templars in AC1 before counter-attack is available are just so intense and awesome (and also make you feel how cheap counter-attacks are when you're on receiving side because those bastards like to do them).

Ahh... I miss that so much. XD

rob.davies2014
06-26-2014, 11:05 PM
This sounds great! It sounds a lot more realistic.

Sesheenku
06-26-2014, 11:07 PM
Yet they do just that. The brute's just standing there at the end, frustratingly devoid of any sane reaction.

http://youtu.be/NWvJq-pLeko

40:50

It looks no different to any of the previous combat systems. From what I've seen in the demos it's more akin to AC2's/AC1's combat, which is more of downgrade than an 'overhaul' as they're touting it. I'll try and reserve full judgment until I see more footage.

Wait wait wait lol...

So you think that AC1 and AC2's combat, which actually required some semblance of timing and actually had variety is a downgrade from AC3 and 4?

AC3 that gives you like a 7 second window to choose your counter action making it IMPOSSIBLE to screw up unless you're a terrible gamer, removed weapon variety, and to throw in some artificial difficulty added enemies invulnerable to certain actions and AC4 which does little to improve upon it and in fact has even less variety.

I'll take AC1 and AC2 combat over 3 and 4 any day of the week, at least the enemies required you to time your counters differently and there was actually a chance to mess up when countering with the hidden blade because the timing wasn't quite as easy as it is now.

Quite frankly the combat in 3 and 4 sucked horribly.

3 was mindless, completely mindless, counter with like a full 2 seconds to choose kill, throw, or disarm, OR disarm the enemy and stab to death repeatedly with your hidden butter knives. 4 had choppy animations and the least amount of weapons making it even more dull than 3 and it really didn't improve, it has all the problems 3 has and more.

Go try and counter kill 30 enemies in a row in AC1 and AC2 without messing up at all, it's a LOT more difficult then 3 and 4, it's still relatively easy but it's more challenging and requires stricter timing at least to keep you on your toes.

Will_Lucky
06-26-2014, 11:15 PM
Great, every comment a developer seems to make on this title the worse it gets. I'd rather they built upon AC4s combat, instead it sounds like they're simplifying it back to a AC1 style but dragging it out even longer which is even worse.

ACfan443
06-26-2014, 11:15 PM
@Seesh
No no, not a downgrade in that sense - I actually preferred the combat system from the previous games, AC1's combat system is my favourite and probably always will be my favourite. Perhaps I worded it badly, but I was talking about it in the context of the main title iteration, going from AC3/AC4 to AC1/AC2 is like taking a step back instead of forward.

WendysBrioche
06-26-2014, 11:18 PM
Wait wait wait lol...

and to throw in some artificial difficulty added enemies invulnerable to certain actions and AC4 which does little to improve upon it and in fact has even less variety.


This is exactly what I'm afraid they're doing to Unity. Making invulnerable enemies and making it impossible to even dodge some of them. Since when is an assassin so defunct he cant even summon the agility to move out of the way. That's what assassins are suppose to do. Strike, and run. Avoid getting hit. The combat should be based on good timing, not restraining the ability to react in combat.

Jexx21
06-27-2014, 12:26 AM
sesh, you seem to not realize that the counter window was long in AC3/AC4 because if you didn't choose any option, you just parried. Pressing that counter button was akin to holding down the high profile button.

Sesheenku
06-27-2014, 12:43 AM
Great, every comment a developer seems to make on this title the worse it gets. I'd rather they built upon AC4s combat, instead it sounds like they're simplifying it back to a AC1 style but dragging it out even longer which is even worse.

Eww no that crap's a mess. I'm glad they scrapped it.


@Seesh
No no, not a downgrade in that sense - I actually preferred the combat system from the previous games, AC1's combat system is my favourite and probably always will be my favourite. Perhaps I worded it badly, but I was talking about it in the context of the main title iteration, going from AC3/AC4 to AC1/AC2 is like taking a step back instead of forward.

Ah okay then.


This is exactly what I'm afraid they're doing to Unity. Making invulnerable enemies and making it impossible to even dodge some of them. Since when is an assassin so defunct he cant even summon the agility to move out of the way. That's what assassins are suppose to do. Strike, and run. Avoid getting hit. The combat should be based on good timing, not restraining the ability to react in combat.

Yeah, I always thought it was stupid when it first showed up in full force during AC3, why the hell can't I counter this guard? He's not a Templar... I don't care if he's a trained German mercenary I'm a trained bloody Assassin.


sesh, you seem to not realize that the counter window was long in AC3/AC4 because if you didn't choose any option, you just parried. Pressing that counter button was akin to holding down the high profile button.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? It SLOWS the game down for like a full second and a half to let you choose your option... in the other AC's you picked immediately.

Get out of here with that, you know that's not a good excuse.

Also for a series that devotes itself to fixing tiny frustrations, it's possible in the heat of combat to accidentally press the throw button twice when you want to do something else. It's asinine.

SpiritMuse
06-27-2014, 01:04 AM
This is exactly what I'm afraid they're doing to Unity. Making invulnerable enemies and making it impossible to even dodge some of them. Since when is an assassin so defunct he cant even summon the agility to move out of the way. That's what assassins are suppose to do. Strike, and run. Avoid getting hit. The combat should be based on good timing, not restraining the ability to react in combat.

This. To be honest, this news is making me think twice about getting Unity. I'm not a super skilled gamer like most people on here seem to be and combat in these games is hard enough for me as it is. I die regularly in fights, especially in the beginning when I don't have a ton of health yet. This "new and improved" harder combat, if it holds, sounds like it will probably mean I'll get insta-killed if I'm discovered. Which is really not fun at all.

SixKeys
06-27-2014, 01:14 AM
Fights with Templars in AC1 before counter-attack is available are just so intense and awesome (and also make you feel how cheap counter-attacks are when you're on receiving side because those bastards like to do them).

Yes, this. I miss getting a heart attack every time I rounded a corner unsuspectingly and one of those bastards started screaming German at me. We need enemies in AC that can do moves the protagonist can't, and which they can never learn. That will keep combat interesting even after finishing the campaign.

Edit:


This. To be honest, this news is making me think twice about getting Unity. I'm not a super skilled gamer like most people on here seem to be and combat in these games is hard enough for me as it is. I die regularly in fights, especially in the beginning when I don't have a ton of health yet. This "new and improved" harder combat, if it holds, sounds like it will probably mean I'll get insta-killed if I'm discovered. Which is really not fun at all.

There's always smoke bombs. Insta-win. The fact that they mention those specifically in the interview as something Arno can do to get out of a tight situation makes me worried they'll be automatic like in Batman: Arkham City. If you get overwhelmed, Batman will sometimes automatically throw smoke bomb to confuse enemies so you can regroup and rethink your approach. It felt cheap as hell. Let ME choose what to do when the going gets tough, don't make the game decide for me: "oh, you must be feeling outnumbered, huh? Here, allow me to hold your hand".

JustPlainQuirky
06-27-2014, 01:16 AM
If the soldiers could do hardcore parkour they'd be more threatening and fun to 'fight'

Legendz54
06-27-2014, 01:26 AM
If it feels more strategic and doesn't feel like i am mowing down heaps of guards then ACU will succeed in combat.

Jexx21
06-27-2014, 01:29 AM
There's always smoke bombs. Insta-win. The fact that they mention those specifically in the interview as something Arno can do to get out of a tight situation makes me worried they'll be automatic like in Batman: Arkham City. If you get overwhelmed, Batman will sometimes automatically throw smoke bomb to confuse enemies so you can regroup and rethink your approach. It felt cheap as hell. Let ME choose what to do when the going gets tough, don't make the game decide for me: "oh, you must be feeling outnumbered, huh? Here, allow me to hold your hand".

that never happens to me, you must be accidentally pressing the button for smoke bombs or something

SixKeys
06-27-2014, 01:31 AM
that never happens to me, you must be accidentally pressing the button for smoke bombs or something

Maybe. All I know is that it's happened more than once.

Ureh
06-27-2014, 01:38 AM
I think it'll still be pretty accessible to the majority of players. Just probably a bit difficult to completely master (ie kill over a dozen - or more - guards without getting hit).

All of us have been playing AC games for years, that experience still has to count for something.

GreySkellig
06-27-2014, 09:27 AM
Honestly? The important thing for good stealth is not just that it be possible, but expedient and sometimes necessary. Why should I bother with Black Flag's improved stealth, for instance, when I could much more easily murder everyone?

If harder combat makes stealth feel rewarding in AC, I'll go with it. That said, they made similar claims about Black Flag and once I got the hang of the new archetypes, I mowed down thousands of guards. I expect a steep learning curve and higher challenge, but I think 5 guards will probably be beatable if you work at it. Either way, I'm happy for a stealthier emphasis.

SpiritMuse
06-27-2014, 03:19 PM
Honestly? The important thing for good stealth is not just that it be possible, but expedient and sometimes necessary. Why should I bother with Black Flag's improved stealth, for instance, when I could much more easily murder everyone?

If harder combat makes stealth feel rewarding in AC, I'll go with it. That said, they made similar claims about Black Flag and once I got the hang of the new archetypes, I mowed down thousands of guards. I expect a steep learning curve and higher challenge, but I think 5 guards will probably be beatable if you work at it. Either way, I'm happy for a stealthier emphasis.

I never get this. If you want to be stealthy, be stealthy. Why do you need to be forced into it by the game if that's what you want to do anyway? Why do you need harder combat in order to make stealth feel rewarding? I prefer the stealthy approach myself and have restarted missions many times if I got discovered, even though I could easily have slaughtered the guards and just gotten on with it. Just because it's the easy way doesn't mean you have to do it.

dxsxhxcx
06-27-2014, 03:53 PM
I never get this. If you want to be stealthy, be stealthy. Why do you need to be forced into it by the game if that's what you want to do anyway? Why do you need harder combat in order to make stealth feel rewarding? I prefer the stealthy approach myself and have restarted missions many times if I got discovered, even though I could easily have slaughtered the guards and just gotten on with it. Just because it's the easy way doesn't mean you have to do it.

the whole point of being stealthy is to avoid to be killed, if this fear doesn't exist there's no point in it

Sushiglutton
06-27-2014, 04:40 PM
Maybe. All I know is that it's happened more than once.

When there are enemies with weapons ready to shoot at you, you will be prompt to throw a smoke bomb (think it's triangle/Y, same as counter). You probably tapped that button to counter and it seemed like the smoke bomb was thrown automatically. Personally I thought it was real cool the first time it happened and detective vision was automatically turned on. One of the best Batman-moments in the game.

SixKeys
06-27-2014, 04:46 PM
When there are enemies with weapons ready to shoot at you, you will be prompt to throw a smoke bomb (think it's triangle/Y, same as counter). You probably tapped that button to counter and it seemed like the smoke bomb was thrown automatically. Personally I thought it was real cool the first time it happened and detective vision was automatically turned on. One of the best Batman-moments in the game.

Then it probably was accidental. I still dislike the feature, though. It feels like the game is handing me a bone I never asked for. "Oh no, are you feeling overwhelmed? Need an easy way out? Don't worry, we've prepared a really cheap and easy way for you to not lose the fight!" If I'm losing the fight, then I'm clearly doing something wrong and am responsible for my own mistakes. Let ME figure out the best way out of the situation.

Sushiglutton
06-27-2014, 04:52 PM
Then it probably was accidental. I still dislike the feature, though. It feels like the game is handing me a bone I never asked for. "Oh no, are you feeling overwhelmed? Need an easy way out? Don't worry, we've prepared a really cheap and easy way for you to not lose the fight!" If I'm losing the fight, then I'm clearly doing something wrong and am responsible for my own mistakes. Let ME figure out the best way out of the situation.

The thing is that there is no quickfire option for smokebombs for some reason. And it's the most natural gadget for Batman to use in this situation (thugs with guns out of reach). So I think it's okey. I see what you mean though.

WendysBrioche
06-27-2014, 06:53 PM
Then it probably was accidental. I still dislike the feature, though. It feels like the game is handing me a bone I never asked for. "Oh no, are you feeling overwhelmed? Need an easy way out? Don't worry, we've prepared a really cheap and easy way for you to not lose the fight!" If I'm losing the fight, then I'm clearly doing something wrong and am responsible for my own mistakes. Let ME figure out the best way out of the situation.

I feel the same way about grabbing guards to block gunfire being restricted to queue. Why cant I grab a guard whenever I want? Holding one hostage would certainly give me time to get a way. Limiting its use to a timed action only diminishes the full potential of the feature.


Honestly? The important thing for good stealth is not just that it be possible, but expedient and sometimes necessary. Why should I bother with Black Flag's improved stealth, for instance, when I could much more easily murder everyone?

If harder combat makes stealth feel rewarding in AC, I'll go with it. That said, they made similar claims about Black Flag and once I got the hang of the new archetypes, I mowed down thousands of guards. I expect a steep learning curve and higher challenge, but I think 5 guards will probably be beatable if you work at it. Either way, I'm happy for a stealthier emphasis.
I agree that combat should be more challenging than the stealth option, but I don't believe this difficulty can or should only be achieved by making combat irresponsive.

A simple way to make it harder can be made by simply getting rid of the feature that slows down time or gives a 3 second window to react to counter attack. Like it was to begin with in AC 1, and people even complained that was too easy. They made it 10x easier by slowing time down which was absurd in AC3 and 4. Restricting the ability to attack and dodge attacks doesn't make combat more challenging, it messes up the flow of combat and the players ability to choose what they want to do.

AC 1 was perfect where, the more high ranking guards couldn't be counterattacked right away. You had to take some health out first. But in 3 in 4 this wasn't an option, they simply made the enemies invulnerable to all except one method to defeat them by melee. It messed with the flow of combat and eliminated the players ability to choose how they want to take out their enemy.

Everything could be tolerable, but the removal of the ability to dodge is absurd. I can understand how blocking a swinging axe by way of sword should be impossible, and you have to dodge instead, but no one should be "too fast" for an assassin.


They should bring back counterkills too. Where you hit x or square at the exact moment your swords make contact. It wasn't necessarily easy to do, definitely required more precision than counterattacking, and felt many times more rewarding. AC 2 still had it in a way when you blocked right before the sword hit, let it go in a split second, then attacked the instant after if would still counter kill, but brotherhood and onwards the game was streamlined with chain combos. And made too easy.

LoyalACFan
06-27-2014, 07:07 PM
I don't believe for a second that five guys will be our limit. Maybe at the very beginning when we have zero upgrades, or for those who are new to the genre. But I remember all too well the promises of "challenging" firing lines and gunner archetypes :rolleyes:

But to be honest, I'm fine with being OP as long as the combat is interesting. Look at the Arkham series; I've never lost a fight in those games (barring one or two of the challenge maps), yet it's still fun because you constantly have to keep moving and switching up your tactics to win. Whereas in AC4 you can flawlessly win any fight by just mashing square and occasionally counter-killing. Edward had some slick animations that were fun to watch, but that hardly makes for interesting gameplay.

Sesheenku
06-27-2014, 07:08 PM
I feel the same way about grabbing guards to block gunfire being restricted to queue. Why cant I grab a guard whenever I want? Holding one hostage would certainly give me time to get a way. Limiting its use to a timed action only diminishes the full potential of the feature.


I agree that combat should be more challenging than the stealth option, but I don't believe this difficulty can or should only be achieved by making combat irresponsive.

A simple way to make it harder can be made by simply getting rid of the feature that slows down time or gives a 3 second window to react to counter attack. Like it was to begin with in AC 1, and people even complained that was too easy. They made it 10x easier by slowing time down which was absurd in AC3 and 4. Restricting the ability to attack and dodge attacks doesn't make combat more challenging, it messes up the flow of combat.

AC 1 was perfect where, the more high ranking guards couldn't be counterattacked right away. You had to take some health out first. But in 3 in 4 this wasn't an option, they simply made the enemies invulnerable to all except one method to defeat them by melee. It messed with the flow of combat and eliminated the players ability to choose how they want to take out their enemy.

Everything could be tolerable, but the removal of the ability to dodge is absurd. I can understand how blocking a swinging axe by way of sword should be impossible, and you have to dodge instead, but no one should be "too fast" for an assassin.


They should bring back counterkills too. Where you hit x or square at the exact moment your swords make contact. It wasn't necessarily easy to do, definitely required more precision than counterattacking, and felt many times more rewarding. AC 2 still had it in a way when you blocked right before the sword hit, let it go in a split second, then attacked the instant after if would still counter kill, but brotherhood an onwards the game was streamlined with chain combos. And made too easy.

I was playing AC2 the other day and was at the part where you lose your sword, I went to grab a codex page and then had to fight off the guards, it was really useful to grab one just before an enemy sword attacked and let the enemies damage the enemies and then take the last one out with fists ;P

WendysBrioche
06-27-2014, 07:32 PM
I was playing AC2 the other day and was at the part where you lose your sword, I went to grab a codex page and then had to fight off the guards, it was really useful to grab one just before an enemy sword attacked and let the enemies damage the enemies and then take the last one out with fists ;P

Omgsh I did that too :o It was the part before you get his robes. I went conspiracy nutso and pretended the codex page by the Palazzo Vecchio was a secret Templar plan. I tried to drop a guard from the rooftops to get them walking in the opposite direction, or something like that, but ended up in a fist fight. Fun times lol XD

Hans684
06-27-2014, 07:54 PM
I was playing AC2 the other day and was at the part where you lose your sword, I went to grab a codex page and then had to fight off the guards, it was really useful to grab one just before an enemy sword attacked and let the enemies damage the enemies and then take the last one out with fists ;P

Unlike you I collect every codext page possible with my fist after the fist fight with Vieri(that's the name of the guy throwing the rock at Ezio right?) at the tight at the bridge. It's fun to defeat them before getting the Assassin robe with my fist only. Still remember it like it was yesterday.

WendysBrioche
06-27-2014, 08:02 PM
Unlike you I collect every codext page possible with my first after the first fight with Viery(that's the name of the guy throwing the rock at Ezuo right?) at the tight at the bridge. It's fun to defeat them before getting the Assassin robe with my first only. Still remember it like it was yesterday.

Ya it was Vieri

jdowny
06-27-2014, 08:46 PM
AC 1 was perfect where, the more high ranking guards couldn't be counterattacked right away. You had to take some health out first. But in 3 in 4 this wasn't an option, they simply made the enemies invulnerable to all except one method to defeat them by melee. It messed with the flow of combat and eliminated the players ability to choose how they want to take out their enemy.

They should bring back counterkills too. Where you hit x or square at the exact moment your swords make contact. It wasn't necessarily easy to do, definitely required more precision than counterattacking, and felt many times more rewarding. AC 2 still had it in a way when you blocked right before the sword hit, let it go in a split second, then attacked the instant after if would still counter kill, but brotherhood and onwards the game was streamlined with chain combos. And made too easy.

I agree, I absolutely loved AC1's combat. The only flaws were that enemies attacked one by one and you could just counter attack everyone.

However, I never stood around waiting to counter - that was boring and took a long time. For me it was a lot more satisfying to mix attacks with counters and dodges. I also loved the narrow counter-window, especially with the hidden blade. It meant that if you wanted to counter kill with it you had to time your move to perfection which involved some skill. I only hope that Unity's combat also requires some skill like they claim.

SpiritMuse
06-27-2014, 08:47 PM
the whole point of being stealthy is to avoid to be killed, if this fear doesn't exist there's no point in it

No, the point of being stealthy is to not be discovered. Whether you get killed as a result or not is irrelevant. Personally, I don't need the extra stress of knowing I'll be brutally punished for screwing up even a little. I play games to have fun, not to get killed over and over again. That just turns it into a chore.

Shahkulu101
06-27-2014, 08:54 PM
See guys this is precisely why we should have difficulty modes in AC.

Then it's fair and accessible to everyone, while at the same time can satisfy more seasoned gamers and even the hardcore crowd. I'm not saying that the devs are wrong or whatever, I'm sure they've got a legitimate reason.

Question is: What?

WendysBrioche
06-27-2014, 10:03 PM
However, I never stood around waiting to counter - that was boring and took a long time. For me it was a lot more satisfying to mix attacks with counters and dodges. I also loved the narrow counter-window, especially with the hidden blade. It meant that if you wanted to counter kill with it you had to time your move to perfection which involved some skill. I only hope that Unity's combat also requires some skill like they claim.

I did the same thing. lol. Once, I had this weird glitch, where, Im tyring not to get hit even once as always, and I kept getting hit back and forth between two different guards in rapid succession, I managed to dodge them all. This lasted for about seven hits per each guard. I wrecked them lol. Was good fun. :o Never had something that hard where I succeeded in an Assassins game again, but I think it's a good record. XD

My best fights where in AC 1. Some really tense ones, there.

I really think the counter kills (not counter attacks), and power attacks made the deal. Doing a long, slow, but powerful sweep and then clinging it together with a sudden fast counter kill at the end was a great finish.

Hans684
06-27-2014, 10:18 PM
I'd say the combat in AC(1) was intense but hardly a challenge.

WendysBrioche
06-27-2014, 10:24 PM
I'd say the combat in AC(1) was intense but hardly a challenge.

Counter attacks made it a breeze. But if you did stuff like rapidly change weapons in between attacks, dodging, and trying not to get hit for as long as you could, it got hard. I think it was like, hexed or something. The longer you didn't get hit enemies would shift and strike from weird areas, sometimes a little glitched. It was weird. I tinkered a lot with AC 1 a long time ago. Weird stuff in that game combat wise.

dxsxhxcx
06-27-2014, 11:37 PM
See guys this is precisely why we should have difficulty modes in AC.

Then it's fair and accessible to everyone, while at the same time can satisfy more seasoned gamers and even the hardcore crowd. I'm not saying that the devs are wrong or whatever, I'm sure they've got a legitimate reason.

Question is: What?

they don't have time thanks to the parallel development/yearly releases and maybe all those rumors about AC3/Watch Dogs (these are the ones we are aware of) development process being a mess might hold some truth after all.

I don't even consider this a legitimate reason because we aren't the ones who set their deadlines, Ubisoft does that, so they are the ones shooting at their own foot.

WendysBrioche
06-27-2014, 11:44 PM
they don't have time thanks to the parallel development/yearly releases and maybe all those rumors about AC3/Watch Dogs (these are the ones we are aware of) development process being a mess might hold some truth after all.

I don't know much about it but is it so hard to add such adjustments to health/damage dealt in combat? Shouldn't the bulk of the work be in the process of creating all the animations and making sure they all run consistently?

It cant be that hard to tap on adjustments to the health meter for each difficulty setting. Idk.

Megas_Doux
06-27-2014, 11:46 PM
I am a one man army in AC I too....

I can kill al the guards, even the ttmplar ones, without ANY problem. Honestly I dont expect that to ever change.......

Sesheenku
06-28-2014, 04:55 AM
I'd say the combat in AC(1) was intense but hardly a challenge.

I used the hidden blade and ONLY the hidden blade throughout the game. Therefore one SINGLE screw up on a counter attack (and the timing wasn't piss easy back then) and you're going to get combo'd to death and it can easily happen again if you mess up on that enemy again.

They did a LOT of damage, the only way the game is easy is if you use the sword or dagger since you can block. Without using those it's not easy to perfectly time hidden blade counters every time. It's not teeth grindingly difficult but it's not mindlessly easy either.

LoyalACFan
06-28-2014, 07:44 AM
I used the hidden blade and ONLY the hidden blade throughout the game. Therefore one SINGLE screw up on a counter attack (and the timing wasn't piss easy back then) and you're going to get combo'd to death and it can easily happen again if you mess up on that enemy again.

They did a LOT of damage, the only way the game is easy is if you use the sword or dagger since you can block. Without using those it's not easy to perfectly time hidden blade counters every time. It's not teeth grindingly difficult but it's not mindlessly easy either.

Eh, hidden blade counters became easy after a while too. I popped AC1 back in the other day just to do some free-roaming, after like three years of not touching it, and before I knew it I had gotten the hang of it again. The counter window isn't really THAT small. Plus you have dodge.

The one thing AC1 combat did better than its successors IMO was the sound effects. Battle cries, shouting "yah!" when you attack, that kind of stuff. It gets kind of weird in the later games when the Assassins fight absolutely silently.

Sesheenku
06-28-2014, 08:19 AM
Eh, hidden blade counters became easy after a while too. I popped AC1 back in the other day just to do some free-roaming, after like three years of not touching it, and before I knew it I had gotten the hang of it again. The counter window isn't really THAT small. Plus you have dodge.

The one thing AC1 combat did better than its successors IMO was the sound effects. Battle cries, shouting "yah!" when you attack, that kind of stuff. It gets kind of weird in the later games when the Assassins fight absolutely silently.

As I said it's not tooth grindingly difficult but it's not thoughtless like ACB onward which requires no timing at all.

It was difficult to dodge if you messed up a counter on the higher ranked enemies as they'd knock you down immediately after. Plus dodging also required timing back then and it can get dicey when they're constantly attacking at different speeds.

Jexx21
06-28-2014, 08:37 AM
attack, parry, dodge, parry, parry, dodge, attack, dodge, attack, attack, parry, smoke bomb, run away, controlled ascent, running on rooftop, controlled descent, stealth mode, blend with crowd, sit down on bench, stand up, walk away, go to cafe, listen to nice music while sipping coffee

Sesheenku
06-28-2014, 09:17 AM
attack, parry, dodge, parry, parry, dodge, attack, dodge, attack, attack, parry, smoke bomb, run away, controlled ascent, running on rooftop, controlled descent, stealth mode, blend with crowd, sit down on bench, stand up, walk away, go to cafe, listen to nice music while sipping coffee

You seem drunk tonight Jexx.

Hans684
06-28-2014, 10:51 AM
I used the hidden blade and ONLY the hidden blade throughout the game. Therefore one SINGLE screw up on a counter attack (and the timing wasn't piss easy back then) and you're going to get combo'd to death and it can easily happen again if you mess up on that enemy again.

They did a LOT of damage, the only way the game is easy is if you use the sword or dagger since you can block. Without using those it's not easy to perfectly time hidden blade counters every time. It's not teeth grindingly difficult but it's not mindlessly easy either.

Fair point, I have not played with the HB only. Might try it one day.


Counter attacks made it a breeze. But if you did stuff like rapidly change weapons in between attacks, dodging, and trying not to get hit for as long as you could, it got hard. I think it was like, hexed or something. The longer you didn't get hit enemies would shift and strike from weird areas, sometimes a little glitched. It was weird. I tinkered a lot with AC 1 a long time ago. Weird stuff in that game combat wise.

Indeed they are, that's why I prefer to play offensive and not wait for every attack. It's far more fun and a lot more intense.

xXXxRMxXXx
06-28-2014, 01:38 PM
Honestly my biggest concern is that they are advertising this as a big new co-op game....
Have any of you played AC4 Multiplayer???? It's complete garbage!!!!!! How can you make a game with such a big co op factor but have no good multiplayer experiences yet???

pacmanate
06-28-2014, 01:42 PM
Honestly my biggest concern is that they are advertising this as a big new co-op game....
Have any of you played AC4 Multiplayer???? It's complete garbage!!!!!! How can you make a game with such a big co op factor but have no good multiplayer experiences yet???

Well... Co-Op isn't multiplayer for one.

xXXxRMxXXx
06-28-2014, 02:33 PM
Well... Co-Op isn't multiplayer for one.

Here, let me rephrase that for you.

Honestly my biggest concern is that they are advertising this as a big new co-op game....
Have any of you played AC4 ONLINE???? It's complete garbage!!!!!! How can you make a game with such a big co op factor but have no good ONLINE experiences yet???

wvstolzing
06-28-2014, 03:37 PM
Here, let me rephrase that for you.

Honestly my biggest concern is that they are advertising this as a big new co-op game....
Have any of you played AC4 ONLINE???? It's complete garbage!!!!!! How can you make a game with such a big co op factor but have no good ONLINE experiences yet???

Actually, I'm concerned about this too. On the other hand, it may just be their focus for E3, where there seemed----to me at least----to be an emphasis in general on online/coop/social bla-bla gimmicks.

Jexx21
06-28-2014, 06:13 PM
You seem drunk tonight Jexx.


i've never been drunk

I tasted some beer (probably lite beer) and thought it was crap

pacmanate
06-28-2014, 06:22 PM
i've never been drunk

I tasted some beer (probably lite beer) and thought it was crap

Beer is crap, its disgusting.

Try some cider next time, or some spirits. Like vodka and fanta :D

Hans684
06-28-2014, 07:17 PM
Beer is crap, its disgusting.

Try some cider next time, or some spirits. Like vodka and fanta :D

Or whiskey.

Shahkulu101
06-28-2014, 08:29 PM
Whiskey Johnny!

Ureh
06-28-2014, 09:53 PM
Whiskey Johnny!

I always drink it out of an old tin can.

pacmanate
06-28-2014, 10:57 PM
I agree! And Whisky! Can't go wrong with Jacks. Or Jim Bean Honey, that stuff is smoooooooth

wvstolzing
06-28-2014, 11:10 PM
Next time you're at the pub, have a single malt Scotch (JW Black Label, or Glenlivet -- my favorites) on my behalf ... I can't drink nowadays due to medical reasons. :( :( :(

So I intoxicate myself with replays of AC2.

Tenvern
06-28-2014, 11:16 PM
All this talk of alchohol is making me want to grab some mead.
Might buy some whisky next time I go shopping, any suggestion?

LoyalACFan
06-28-2014, 11:21 PM
Might buy some whisky next time I go shopping, any suggestion?

Don't drink and drive :)

Tenvern
06-28-2014, 11:31 PM
That's good advice right there, if only more people were smart enough not to.
Then again, I guess some people get stupid when they drink.

Shahkulu101
06-28-2014, 11:31 PM
Don't drink and drive :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc0sA2WsCgY

Locopells
06-29-2014, 12:38 AM
Er...topic, guys!

Hans684
06-29-2014, 09:43 AM
I agree! And Whisky! Can't go wrong with Jacks. Or Jim Bean Honey, that stuff is smoooooooth

Have not tried those, Irish whiskey(Jameson) is the best so far IMO.


Might buy some whisky next time I go shopping, any suggestion?

Jameson, it's Irish whiskey,


Er...topic, guys!

Can we be drunk and fight in Unity? Drunk combat sounds like a lot of fun.

steveeire
06-29-2014, 09:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEt4B1poOfM

pacmanate
06-29-2014, 11:27 AM
I hope they have drunkness good in Unity.

W_D and AC4 had crap drunk effects where the screen got distorted. I want something like Red Dead drunkness!

Jexx21
06-29-2014, 06:37 PM
i don't think you'll be able to get drunk in Unity >.>

SixKeys
06-29-2014, 06:48 PM
i don't think you'll be able to get drunk in Unity >.>

But....all that French wine! D:

pacmanate
06-29-2014, 06:56 PM
i don't think you'll be able to get drunk in Unity >.>

Im pretty sure when Arno witnessed his fathers death at... what is it, 5 or 8 years old, he became an alcoholic.

Jexx21
06-29-2014, 06:59 PM
French Wine don't start with a C

it needs to be a C for Cafes and Cake and Coffee.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 07:00 PM
lol when did getting drunk in AC become a thing?

Could you do it in black flag or something?

m4r-k7
06-29-2014, 07:39 PM
What you guys should do is get drunk in real life, then play AC. Thats the proper way to play.

Ureh
06-29-2014, 08:33 PM
lol when did getting drunk in AC become a thing?

Could you do it in black flag or something?

Yeah, go up to a tavern bar and pay 5 reales for a mug of rum. After 5 of them, Edward passes out and wakes up in a haystack. Is that what you're asking? :p

wvstolzing
06-29-2014, 10:47 PM
Yeah, go up to a tavern bar and pay 5 reales for a mug of rum. After 5 of them, Edward passes out and wakes up in a haystack. Is that what you're asking? :p

Arno, on the other hand, as an early adopter of Absinthe, will have a couple glasses, and find himself in a 'controlled descent'.

JustPlainQuirky
06-29-2014, 10:53 PM
pffffft I didn't know that.

I need to try that.

GreySkellig
06-29-2014, 10:59 PM
What you guys should do is get drunk in real life, then play AC. Thats the proper way to play.

If you're just trolling around in AC drunk, everything you do seems exponentially cooler. But whenever I play Trashedsassin's Creed I wind up smack talking all the NPCs.

Locopells
06-30-2014, 01:40 AM
*bursts out laughing*

Calvarok
06-30-2014, 05:15 AM
I've never thought you're supposed to be a superhuman. cutscenes routinely show our Assassins running from three or four guards, or taking some time to take out two of them. You're very skilled and extremely deadly, but combat should not be the easiest way through every mission. If the player knows they can kill any amount of guards, then they're going to try to do so, and then you have to do bad things like forcing desynch if you're detected.

This is them finally saying "hey, you won't actually be able to get through the game without being stealthy. stealth is the only guaranteed path" For people who like combat, there are combat skill tree upgrades that will presumably make fights easier. but I don't think it will be possible to take on literally infinite amounts of enemies ever again. And that's good.

Because it makes the people we're playing as feel human, and it makes the templars seem less like bumbling and ridiculous fools for thinking that they're safe if they have an army of guards protecting them. Edward Kenway was killed in combat by three Templars. Assassins are just people, and any person has a chance to lose any fight, no matter how skilled they are. Now the gameplay reflects that, and actively encourages players to act like an Assassin would

Sesheenku
06-30-2014, 05:52 AM
What you guys should do is get drunk in real life, then play AC. Thats the proper way to play.

I tried it, it makes it more fun but sadly I keep a firm hold on most of my sense when drunk, I can even spell fine although it takes longer as I mess up more and try to correct myself. That's drinking half a bottle of 80 proof rum as well lol.

Jexx21
06-30-2014, 05:54 AM
I've never thought you're supposed to be a superhuman. cutscenes routinely show our Assassins running from three or four guards, or taking some time to take out two of them. You're very skilled and extremely deadly, but combat should not be the easiest way through every mission. If the player knows they can kill any amount of guards, then they're going to try to do so, and then you have to do bad things like forcing desynch if you're detected.

This is them finally saying "hey, you won't actually be able to get through the game without being stealthy. stealth is the only guaranteed path" For people who like combat, there are combat skill tree upgrades that will presumably make fights easier. but I don't think it will be possible to take on literally infinite amounts of enemies ever again. And that's good.

Because it makes the people we're playing as feel human, and it makes the templars seem less like bumbling and ridiculous fools for thinking that they're safe if they have an army of guards protecting them. Edward Kenway was killed in combat by three Templars. Assassins are just people, and any person has a chance to lose any fight, no matter how skilled they are. Now the gameplay reflects that, and actively encourages players to act like an Assassin would

calvarok you're on the forums again?