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View Full Version : Would you buy and play an Assassin's Creed game with a female protagonist?



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Jexx21
06-15-2014, 12:26 PM
Here's my belief:

Ubisoft isn't sexist. But they're huge marketing people and they want to know that what they do will be pretty profitable.

So you want to have a female protagonist? Show them that it's marketable. I know people in real life that were on the fence about AC: Liberation because the main character is a girl. I obviously don't agree with them but it is an issue.

So, would you?

yankeegamergirl
06-15-2014, 12:32 PM
I don't think they are either but many people who play games are. A thread like this is not a microcosm of opinion when you're dealing with millions of players who don't read forum like this. The result won't really be representative in any way (even if it comes out in favor for a female) Nonetheless though, I'll vote since you took the time to ask.

edit. I voted yes but that is circumstantial; it's got to be a game I want to play for other reasons...not just that the protag is female.

Animusaurus
06-15-2014, 12:35 PM
Don't really give a care, id totally play a female, just not if they're in a Skimpy outfit (but ubisoft is good with stuff like that), and if she's badass.


Just don't want female characters shoehorned in because "Lack of da diversateh" by a bunch of idiots who can't stand playing a game if it does not go their way.

GhanaBoiii
06-15-2014, 12:40 PM
I don't think Ubisoft thought people would overact over what's In between the main characters legs, I mean the story won't change much so yes of course I would buy is..., Male or female no big deal.

Hans684
06-15-2014, 12:48 PM
I would play it but I don't care what the protagonist is. I wouldn't mind playing Goat Simulator if it comes to PS4, from what I've seen it's a crazy GTA with a 4 legged protagonist.

AherasSTRG
06-15-2014, 12:51 PM
1. I 'd play any AC game that came out
2. The AC game I 'd love to play would be a female assassin during WWII
3. Argueing over diversity in a franchise like Assassin's Creed is plain stupid.

Aphex_Tim
06-15-2014, 12:59 PM
Yes I would. And I'm getting real tired of all this male/female crap.

Dag_B
06-15-2014, 01:11 PM
As long as it's a good game with good gameplay and a nice story I would play as basically everyone. Men, woman, alien, straight, gay, african, american, european, asian... Whatever you can think of. I think story and setting is more important than the rest.

And no, Ubisoft has no problem at all. They always have strong female characters, I do not think that the fact that only one of them was playable make they sexist all of a sudden. If they really were sexist we would not get strong female NPCs too.

ze_topazio
06-15-2014, 01:15 PM
Character race, ethnicity and gender is irrelevant, it's the quality of the game that matters.

steveeire
06-15-2014, 01:18 PM
As long as they are not pandering then yes.

Locopells
06-15-2014, 01:24 PM
Answer the poll by all means, but if we could keep discussion to this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/890993-Ubisoft-Please-Make-the-Next-Protagonist-a-Female?highlight=Petition+female

rather then repeating the same points in each, it'd be appreciated.


As for the poll, that's a yes, for me.

pacmanate
06-15-2014, 01:48 PM
Only if she had big ba-donk-a-donks

http://www.shadowlogic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jessica_cambensy_assassins_creed_13.jpg

HercRembrandt
06-15-2014, 01:52 PM
Sure I would, if it was good. Although I did buy and play Liberation, even as it wasn't (because incoherence, irrelevance and bad design). But I gave it a chance. Not because of my righteous politics, but because AC. Could have been much better, but the shortcomings weren't because "gurls iz dum" either. Playing it didn't cause castration or anything.

ACfan443
06-15-2014, 01:59 PM
Absolutely. Deviating from convention would be a refreshing and welcome change.

Shahkulu101
06-15-2014, 02:07 PM
Only if she had big ba-donk-a-donks

http://www.shadowlogic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jessica_cambensy_assassins_creed_13.jpg

Leave it to Pac. :rolleyes:

And yes, of course I'd play as a female. Regardless of the size of her ahem...ba-donk-a-donks....

Sesheenku
06-15-2014, 02:11 PM
I don't mind, I'd buy it.

Only reason I didn't buy Libertaions is because it looked to be a retread of AC3 but with a woman, that's not enough for me, If they do it I want a fresh game with a female protagonist.

Obviously I don't want them to do it because of pandering.

My preferred choice would be if they go to China next for a female character, apparently the Chinese assassins are most skilled in kung fu, that would be interesting.

Or perhaps a clever London woman who's also a detective or something like that.

A Czech woman in Prague would be pretty sweet too.

Shahkulu101
06-15-2014, 02:14 PM
Tbh how could you tell if they were doing it for pandering or not? If they were pandering and the story was good, meh...

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 02:48 PM
Ok here's my thoughts. Of course on here the answer will be overwhelmingly a yes. But it is also an extremely biased vote. 99.999999% of the people on this forum are die hard AC fans who would play an AC game no matter what the protagonist is(just like I did with Liberation but I felt very awkward playing as a woman admittedly). And also we on these forums are largely fans of open world games and RPGs. Which are game types that tend to be far more open minded to female protagonists/avatars. So with that concept having been around in some of our favorite series for a long time it doesn't feel weird to us. But on the open market the VAST MAJORITY of buyers are not die hard fans nor is everyone an RPG player.

Ubisoft has to make money by convincing the casual gamer to pick it up on impulse. And maximize their profits. How can that be done?
Setting is the biggest one. Which game sold the most to date? Ac3. Why? It's the American revolution and a ****load of American casual gamers picked it up just for that reason. A wise marketing decision on Ubis part since America is one of(if not the biggest) markets for video games in the world.

Another way is to add features like Naval open world pirates. While this is kind of gimmicky it is smart marketing because it will attract buyers who want a pirate game. And introduce them to the AC series and may make them fans. Thus they buy the old games and reserve a copy of Unity.

Now we come to protagonists. Male or female? Well there's a few factors as far as making money goes. MOST of the market is made up of guys. Just that simple. And while many here don't mind a female protagonist due to our gaming habits and such. What about the casual guys that Ubi needs to make sales? Do you really think a guy who plays COD, Battlefield, and GTA all day is really going to pick up a game centered around a girl if they never usually play AC? I highly doubt it. Sure SOME may buy is but sales isn't a game of capturing SOME. you want MOST people's money.
In all honesty I was a casual for a long time. My first "real" game I would say was probably AC1. And I didn't fully open my horizons to that type of game until ACB or ACR had come out. So I was predominantly a casual. And I probably would never have picked up AC if it were a woman. 99% of my friends are also casual gamers and there isn't a copy of Tomb Raider or Metroid in sight. Average guys just aren't interested in it. It's not that they really care the protagonist is a woman or that they hate women. But that they just won't impulse buy a game where your a girl. It's just not comfortable or relatable. I'm open minded to it and even I felt odd playing as Avaline. And that's the only female protagonist game I have. Pretty much only because it was an AC and I'm a huge fan.
But if all they did was Female protags from now on I will admitt they will probably lose me after a 2 games or so. I don't want to pay money to feel awkward and not relate to my protagonist.

So if they use a female protagonist. Sure the game will sell it's AC. But the sales would flatline with mostly only Die Hard fans and RPG players and Women buying it. Which is a drop in sales from their AC3 and AC4 sales. They don't want LESS money. Sure they'd probably make money. But they wouldn't maximize their profits because they wouldn't appeal to the larger Demographics. And that's bad business. Sure there's successful games like Tomb raider out there that are Female Protags. But these series have always had a female. And I would bet my life savings they'd make more money if they switched to a guy. There is no series I know of that switched from a man to female protagonist and sold better. And that doesn't make much business sense for Ubi to do then.

You also have the added issue of the fact that AC is historic fiction. And women until post WW2 were really not treated fairly or as free to roam about society like now. For instance if the target is in a bar and it's 1830. A woman can't just be in a bar unsuspiciously without being one of the prostitutes there. So no self respecting woman would go in. And if they made that woman disguise herself as a ****** to get the info needed then the feminists would have a FIT! They would scream sexism from the top of their lungs and would call the game insulting to women.
In a game where during pretty much any of their settings women were not treated respectfully(unless they were rich and single(Avaline)). All that would do is force the game story/play to be EXTREMELY sexist and OFFENSIVE if they recreate the culture or time period with any accuracy. Even Avalines greatest advantage was she was a woman. The charm ability for example is just using sex as if that's all women can do to distract people. And the dialogue of the awkward friend trying to get out of the friend zone. Or the Pervy drunk captain. Yeah that was rather disrespectful and offensive to some women. But thankfully that game was so short and had the added bonus of hiding in the Byou or Mexico for most of the game before the social interactions caused a riot by feminists.

So I honestly feel a female protagonist in AC would do more harm than good. Because it would end up making the very problem they'd be trying to fix worse. Sure you have a female now. But if the story and culture the game depicts inevitably has a sexist lean to it due to the period then heads will roll! And add to that the fact that they wouldn't be making near as much money as if they had an awesome setting with a non controversial male protagonist. It just really isn't worth it for Ubi to do. The risks far outweigh the rewards. And the numbers just don't favor it. And not going where the money is is poor business

RinoTheBouncer
06-15-2014, 02:54 PM
I’m ok with any type of protagonist: male, female, straight, bisexual, gay, as long as the story is written well and the character is interesting enough and fitting the role not just made so that nobody’s upset or to avoid a controversy, I’m all for it.

I-Like-Pie45
06-15-2014, 03:06 PM
Only if she had big ba-donk-a-donks

http://www.shadowlogic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jessica_cambensy_assassins_creed_13.jpg

LOOK AT HER

SHES PROMOTING THE GAME AND THE ONLY SIMILARITY SHE HAS TO AVELINE ARE HER TA-TAS AND YOU KNOW

----
rc

roostersrule2
06-15-2014, 03:07 PM
Only if she had big ba-donk-a-donks

http://www.shadowlogic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jessica_cambensy_assassins_creed_13.jpgProtag for AC:V found.

Ureh
06-15-2014, 03:56 PM
Yes I will buy it.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 04:18 PM
This is a loaded question if I have't seen one before.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-15-2014, 04:37 PM
Be it male or female doesnt matter to me. As long as the story is good, I could care less if the protagonist was gay/*****/transvestite.

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 04:40 PM
This is a loaded question if I have't seen one before.

Not only is the question loaded. But as I pointed out in my rather long post earlier on this thread it also doesn't accurately represent the general population of gamers. Thus making this an incredibly bad survey sample and it's results really mean nothing because all opinions are gained from one area and one particular sub category of people(ie AC fans).

Either they've never learned about statistics or they are a stats expert and did this specifically knowing they would get this outcome just to prove some kind of point and advance their agenda. Rather than a fair question with a balanced sample of people that reflects the demographics of the entire gaming market.

And then there's also that factors that it's a lot deeper of a thing to make a female protag for AC than just simply "I want it". Again I pointed this out in my long post. Given the periods in which AC is set it would almost make the very problem they'd be addressing worse by adding a female. As the time period would end up reflecting on the protagonist very badly and in an extremely sexist way. Which would be way worse for Ubi than just not using a female at all. The controversy wouldn't be good press.

And then there's the factor of sales numbers. Which is a VERY important thing. And isn't as subjective as an I want question. They have to do what Most want not what particular individuals or groups want

lothario-da-be
06-15-2014, 04:41 PM
No, I despise woman as a race, would never support something where womans are important.

Shahkulu101
06-15-2014, 04:43 PM
No, I despise woman as a race, would never support something where womans are important.

Are you serious? Woman are not a race by the way...

Rugterwyper32
06-15-2014, 04:43 PM
I'd really like it if done right. The potential storylines I'm sure could play out in such interesting ways that it really catches my attention.

Sesheenku
06-15-2014, 04:45 PM
Not only is the question loaded. But as I pointed out in my rather long post earlier on this thread it also doesn't accurately represent the general population of gamers. Thus making this an incredibly bad survey sample and it's results really mean nothing because all opinions are gained from one area and one particular sub category of people(ie AC fans).

Either they've never learned about statistics or they are a stats expert and did this specifically knowing they would get this outcome just to prove some kind of point and advance their agenda. Rather than a fair question with a balanced sample of people that reflects the demographics of the entire gaming market.

And then there's also that factors that it's a lot deeper of a thing to make a female protag for AC than just simply "I want it". Again I pointed this out in my long post. Given the periods in which AC is set it would almost make the very problem they'd be addressing worse by adding a female. As the time period would end up reflecting on the protagonist very badly and in an extremely sexist way. Which would be way worse for Ubi than just not using a female at all. The controversy wouldn't be good press.

And then there's the factor of sales numbers. Which is a VERY important thing. And isn't as subjective as an I want question. They have to do what Most want not what particular individuals or groups want

I ****ing love your posts man.


Are you serious? Woman are not a race by the way...

You really think he's serious? C'mooooooooooon!

lothario-da-be
06-15-2014, 04:46 PM
Are you serious? Woman are not a race by the way...
Of course I am not serious lol.
And race/womans were part of the "joke"
Kinda ridiculous this needs to have a thread, why would you not buy a game because the protagonist is female?

Kirokill
06-15-2014, 04:48 PM
Don't really give a care, id totally play a female, just not if they're in a Skimpy outfit (but ubisoft is good with stuff like that).

Those are my requirements.

jayjay275
06-15-2014, 04:50 PM
I'm kind of getting fed up of this whole argument now. Why're people acting as if this is the first time we haven't had a female protagonist and that AC is the main culprit? I'll buy the game if the story is good ad the character is good. To me, male or female doesn't matter, even though I prefer playing as a male in general it doesn't matter.

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 05:00 PM
I ****ing love your posts man.


Hmmmm not sure if trolling or sincere complement......lol


And in all seriousness I think that the immaturity and level of sexism/sarcasm this thread has devolved into kind of proves my point. It would only be worse if they did it rather than stick with dudes. It would only appear more sexist if they did do it. Because you can't have the girl look like the one above or risk objectification. And you can't properly depict history through the eyes of a woman without blatant sexism. So it's a catch 22 and Ubi stands to gain nothing from it but headaches. They're damned if they don't but even worse if they do. So just get over it people it's not going to happen because people would either be pervs or immature about it or it would cause a feminist war on ubisoft. And they don't need that. Especially since it wouldn't sell as well as other ACs anyway. There is literally NO GOOD REASON to do this for Ubi. And no before any crazy feminist says it "but I want it and it needs to happen cuz it represents me and makes me feel better" is not a good reason. The world doesn't revolve around you get over it. There's more factors at play than what an interest group wants. Sorry to break it to you.

GreySkellig
06-15-2014, 05:01 PM
Provided the character received more work than Aveline. I still can't get over her weird stiff run. Horrible animation. I'd love a fierce female protag. But I'm not going to get bent out of shape over it. Assassin's Creed has easily one of the most diverse protagonist lineups in gaming.

Sesheenku
06-15-2014, 05:10 PM
Hmmmm not sure if trolling or sincere complement......lol


And in all seriousness I think that the immaturity and level of sexism/sarcasm this thread has devolved into kind of proves my point. It would only be worse if they did it rather than stick with dudes. It would only appear more sexist if they did do it. Because you can't have the girl look like the one above or risk objectification. And you can't properly depict history through the eyes of a woman without blatant sexism. So it's a catch 22 and Ubi stands to gain nothing from it but headaches. They're damned if they don't but even worse if they do. So just get over it people it's not going to happen because people would either be pervs or immature about it or it would cause a feminist war on ubisoft. And they don't need that. Especially since it wouldn't sell as well as other ACs anyway. There is literally NO GOOD REASON to do this for Ubi. And no before any crazy feminist says it "but I want it and it needs to happen cuz it represents me and makes me feel better" is not a good reason. The world doesn't revolve around you get over it. There's more factors at play than what an interest group wants. Sorry to break it to you.

The compliment was 100% sincere.

I delved a little bit into the fact that there are other factors in place that these people don't consider but you didn't just delve a bit, you delved deep and caught a fish and brought it back up alive and kicking.

There's various other factors to be considered by companies when they make a game, these internet feminists seem to lack the ability to understand that and automatically shout sexism.

You worded the argument better than I could have so yeah. Excellent posts.

Might as well have been

/thread

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 05:11 PM
Hmmmm not sure if trolling or sincere complement......lol


And in all seriousness I think that the immaturity and level of sexism/sarcasm this thread has devolved into kind of proves my point. It would only be worse if they did it rather than stick with dudes. It would only appear more sexist if they did do it. Because you can't have the girl look like the one above or risk objectification. And you can't properly depict history through the eyes of a woman without blatant sexism. So it's a catch 22 and Ubi stands to gain nothing from it but headaches. They're damned if they don't but even worse if they do. So just get over it people it's not going to happen because people would either be pervs or immature about it or it would cause a feminist war on ubisoft. And they don't need that. Especially since it wouldn't sell as well as other ACs anyway. There is literally NO GOOD REASON to do this for Ubi. And no before any crazy feminist says it "but I want it and it needs to happen cuz it represents me and makes me feel better" is not a good reason. The world doesn't revolve around you get over it. There's more factors at play than what an interest group wants. Sorry to break it to you.

That's kind of the point of wanting to do a poll like this on an actual large scale: to gather marketing data that says that people would be just as willing to play as a female character.

I think you have issues if you can't play or relate to someone of the opposite sex.

Sesheenku
06-15-2014, 05:15 PM
That's kind of the point of wanting to do a poll like this on an actual large scale: to gather marketing data that says that people would be just as willing to play as a female character.

I think you have issues if you can't play or relate to someone of the opposite sex.

This isn't a problem for me or most of the men here.

Here's the highly amusing thing though, this applies to the people *****ing about wanting female protagonists, they claim it's needed for representation and for women to feel more comfortable.

This isn't a one way street it goes both ways, women are not excused for having such issues.

As I said I couldn't care less what gender the character is the fact that anyone does is ******ed.

I'm not talking about you specifically but generally the people that make these posts are so ludicrously blind to their own hypocrisy that it's ****ing hilarious.

Dome500
06-15-2014, 05:16 PM
Honestly, I don't care.
The only reason I didn't play Liberation was because it has AC3's mechanics and was not a main title.

I would play a female protagonist any day.
But I don't mind a male either.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 05:20 PM
This isn't a problem for me or most of the men here.

Here's the highly amusing thing though, this applies to the people *****ing about wanting female protagonists, they claim it's needed for representation and for women to feel more comfortable.

This isn't a one way street it goes both ways, women are not excused for having such issues.

As I said I couldn't care less what gender the character is the fact that anyone does is ******ed.
The guy your praising does have an issue with it, that's why he voted no. He just doesn't want to play as a female at all.

pacmanate
06-15-2014, 05:27 PM
Okay gonna be serious.

I would like a female protag, I really liked playing as Aveline, as little time as I spent with her (AC4 missions).

Problem is, i know Ubisoft would either oversexualize her, or through in a scene where she is captured and there is suggestive "near rape" circumstances.

It happens a lot in video games where a male overpowers a female protag and there are pervy intents and I hate it.

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 05:36 PM
That's kind of the point of wanting to do a poll like this on an actual large scale: to gather marketing data that says that people would be just as willing to play as a female character.

I think you have issues if you can't play or relate to someone of the opposite sex.

No actually I really don't care who the protag is. I just did some thinking n some research and realized that there is wayyyy more to the issue than just "Ubi is sexist and need a female protag". There are wayyyyy more legitimate reasons not to have one than to have one. I have no problem with women at all and would welcome a protag. However I do have a problem with Feminists and other progressive liberal nonse rabble constantly trying to use everything they come in contact with as a soapbox for their propaganda.

As I said I have no problem with any kind of protagonist. It could be a purple woman with two heads for all I care. My point is that Ubi is a company. They have to do what's best for them. They have no obligation to you or anyone else or any cause. The don't owe u a female protag. They have NO GOOD REASON to do it. And thus why it hasn't been done. Why should they hurt their sales or risk their company's reputation if it backfires just to appease a small group of rabble? It makes no sense.

Ubi will make a female protag if they want to or it it makes sense to in their story or a changed market. But as it stands they have no good reason. And they have no interest in bowing to the needs of feminists.

Honestly constantly fighting and threatening and doctoring public opinion to try and heavy handedy FORCE an independent company to spew your agenda is no different from being a terrorist. You use fear and force and anger to get your way. That's why the radical feminists and progressives sicken me. They are the very thing they claim they fight against. Irony and hypocrisy abounds.

And by the way what you are doing isn't even "market research" as I said before it is not a fair sample and is a horrible loaded question. Learn something about how to properly conduct a representative survey. All this represents is the opinion of Die hard AC fans who took the time to get on forums. A very tiny sub group that hardly represents the whole gaming community. That's like saying I'm only going to survey my buddies in central PA on all political issues and claim that represents all people in the US's opinion. That's a terrible survey and only suits my interests and theirs. Not the whole. These loaded surveys are just another way radicals constantly try to bend reality to suit their agenda(be they right wing or left). Just STOP.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 05:39 PM
Okay gonna be serious.

I would like a female protag, I really liked playing as Aveline, as little time as I spent with her (AC4 missions).

Problem is, i know Ubisoft would either oversexualize her, or through in a scene where she is captured and there is suggestive "near rape" circumstances.

It happens a lot in video games where a male overpowers a female protag and there are pervy intents and I hate it.

Uh.. there was a whole game with her where she wasn't over-sexualized, she was barely sexualized at all.

What about Far Cry 3's near-rape experience? It was the lead up to one of the "boss fights." That was a male rape situation.

I think you're overblowing your concerns pac.

poptartz20
06-15-2014, 05:42 PM
I wouldn't mind But I don't car either way. I'm honestly getting so tired of this either way. Gahh...

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 05:49 PM
No actually I really don't care who the protag is. I just did some thinking n some research and realized that there is wayyyy more to the issue than just "Ubi is sexist and need a female protag". There are wayyyyy more legitimate reasons not to have one than to have one. I have no problem with women at all and would welcome a protag. However I do have a problem with Feminists and other progressive liberal nonse rabble constantly trying to use everything they come in contact with as a soapbox for their propaganda.

As I said I have no problem with any kind of protagonist. It could be a purple woman with two heads for all I care. My point is that Ubi is a company. They have to do what's best for them. They have no obligation to you or anyone else or any cause. The don't owe u a female protag. They have NO GOOD REASON to do it. And thus why it hasn't been done. Why should they hurt their sales or risk their company's reputation if it backfires just to appease a small group of rabble? It makes no sense.

Ubi will make a female protag if they want to or it it makes sense to in their story or a changed market. But as it stands they have no good reason. And they have no interest in bowing to the needs of feminists.

Honestly constantly fighting and threatening and doctoring public opinion to try and heavy handedy FORCE an independent company to spew your agenda is no different from being a terrorist. You use fear and force and anger to get your way. That's why the radical feminists and progressives sicken me. They are the very thing they claim they fight against. Irony and hypocrisy abounds.

And by the way what you are doing isn't even "market research" as I said before it is not a fair sample and is a horrible loaded question. Learn something about how to properly conduct a representative survey. All this represents is the opinion of Die hard AC fans who took the time to get on forums. A very tiny sub group that hardly represents the whole gaming community. That's like saying I'm only going to survey my buddies in central PA on all political issues and claim that represents all people in the US's opinion. That's a terrible survey and only suits my interests and theirs. Not the whole. These loaded surveys are just another way radicals constantly try to bend reality to suit their agenda(be they right wing or left). Just STOP.

I'm asking if you would buy a game with a female protagonist, not if game companies should do it for whatever reason. I'm asking if you, yourself, would want to to purchase and play a game that had a female protagonist.

Do you see me even using these results for any sort of argument? No, I'm not, and I don't even plan to, exactly for the reasons why you're saying this is not true market research.

I'm not trying to force Ubisoft to do anything, I want them to make whatever they want to make. But, what if they want to make a game with a female protagonist but corporate won't let them because it's not marketable enough? If a market does show change, a female protagonist is more likely. What I'm saying is, that this is a better example of showing Ubisoft that there is a viable market for female protagonists. Ideally, a poll like this should be on a website like Game Informer or IGN or Gamespot or Kotaku or all of them.

Please don't tell me what to do, thanks.

SixKeys
06-15-2014, 06:00 PM
Absolutely, as long as the game is good. I still intend to buy Liberation, but am waiting for a price drop because the reviews weren't that great.

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 06:04 PM
I apologize if I misunderstood your intent Jexx. It's just there's been so many out of control crazy feminists on these forums lately I thought you had done this in line with them and their nonsensical ideas. I apologize for any offense it's just someone has to call these radicals out for the hypocrites and liars they are being. And I mistook you for being one of them.

To politely answer your question. While I personally would play an AC game with a female protag I probably wouldn't pick up a new IP if it was female because I just don't want that and don't relate to it. It's not that I wouldn't play as a female in a series I like like AC. I just wouldn't prefer to pick up a new series with a female protag. It would deter me from it. But if it were a tired and true series I liked I wouldn't mind for a game or two. Do you know what if mean? I don't have a problem with female protagonists.

I think What you're trying to do makes sense and should be researched. But Ubi and others already do this research with much better more accurate samples. If you did this maybe as a survey and asked people randomly at game stores then you would have a far better sample than here. And I and I think others here too was confused with the question. I thought you meant specifically AC and were trying to force them to like other radicals on these forums with their petitions and such.

Once again I apologize for the misunderstanding or any insult. I hope you can forgive me. And best of Luck on your findings! I only ask that you try a more fair demographic sample for your research and I'd be interested of you posted your findings here. I'm a man of science and I'm all for any kind of study and will support it's findings if you do. But as of now markets highly discourage a female protagonist

Shahkulu101
06-15-2014, 06:11 PM
"But as of now markets highly discourage a female protagonist."

Tomb Raider. 6.5 million copies.

That is all.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 06:13 PM
Woah woah

there was a near-rape scene in far cry 3?!

Link pls.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 06:17 PM
Well, I understand that the market right now isn't entirely supportive of female protagonists. There is a reason why most games that have co-op (and don't let you pick gender in the first place) usually have a female character though, and that is because they don't want to appear sexist or appear to antagonize a certain market.

However, the market is changing. Tomb Raider (2013) didn't turn huge numbers but it was quite popular, and if the next game gets larger sales that would be great. Mirror's Edge does feature a female protagnist, but it didn't sell very well despite high critical reviews. Remember Me also features a female protagonist but the game received mixed reviews and the sales weren't great at all (Pirate here loved Remember Me, for what it's worth). Borderlands The Pre-Sequel has two female protagonists in it's main 4-person line-up (the two remaining people include a male and a robot), unlike the first two which only had 1, although Borderlands 2 did add another female character.

STDlyMcStudpants
06-15-2014, 06:24 PM
I would buy if they were male, female, drag queen, white, black, asian, peurtorican, it doesnt matter to me....
Idk why it matters to anyone else that their sex or race doesnt getrepresented in form of media...
I dont cry every time a rapper is black,that everyone on America Next Top Model is female, or that no one on rupauls drag race is straight...... lol

guardian_titan
06-15-2014, 06:29 PM
Not really sure I'd want to play a female lead. Even if they don't intend to, she ends up objectified at some point. Aveline ends up having to wear a dress and seduce targets in AC3L. She's more gender neutral in her AC4 DLC. If we see another female protagonist, are we to suspect that she'll just use her body again thus objectifying herself?

There's other things to wonder about with the series as well like:
1.) Why are most protagonists well off? Connor came from nothing but even he got a hand up from Achilles. Edward is the only one that started with nothing and didn't get handouts from another character. But now we're back to the rich noble. Altair doesn't count since money didn't matter in AC1. Most of the world is poor so why do all the protagonists seem to be from that top 1%?
2.) Why are nearly all of the protagonists (save Edward) dark haired? Where's the blondes? Where's the redheads? Where's the lighter brunets? Why must every protagonist be dark haired? And this isn't just for AC. MANY franchises are at fault for this one. And what about people with two tone hair (like brown hair with natural blonde streaks)? Why must they all have solid hair?
3.) We have brown and blue-eyed protagonists, but where are the green-eyed ones? What about those with one brown eye and one blue or green?
4.) Why are all of the Assassin's only children or only have one sibling? Where's the large families? Ezio was the last one from a large family ... and they all died save Claudia who had children herself although the games don't really mention this.
5.) Why do all of the protagonists only have 1-2 kids, and if there's 2, one always ends up childless?
6.) Why don't any of the assassins have a deformity or a severe handicap? All of them are tip top shape. Various diseases like smallpox have life long signs. Then there's losing things like fingers or maybe an entire arm. There hasn't been a maimed assassin since Malik and he wasn't playable! And all of the assassins have perfect teeth. Come on. How likely is that? Edward's mentioned to lose some teeth in his novel but nothing in the game and he's certainly not shown to be missing some teeth.
7.) What about a shy or socially awkward assassin? Connor's not socially awkward. He still makes friends incredibly easily. A real person who's socially awkward (or perhaps paranoid) will be lucky to make 1-2 friends in their lifetime.
8.) What about mental instability? The assassins murder people on a regular basis and yet still seem to be mentally stable? Come on! Why can't one snap and go Hercules on his family or something? Slaughter them all and repent afterward while being apprehensive about forming close relationships again.

Simply put (and I've said it many times before), if you try to please everyone, in the end you please no one. It'd be impossible to satisfy every single group.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 06:33 PM
Seduction can be done by males too.

Sexualization isn't necessarily a bad thing, y'know.

RatonhnhakeFan
06-15-2014, 06:41 PM
Simply put (and I've said it many times before), if you try to please everyone, in the end you please no one. It'd be impossible to satisfy every single group.

So your solution is "let's just please straight white dudes then"? That's worse

Mr_Shade
06-15-2014, 06:43 PM
I would buy if they were male, female, drag queen, white, black, asian, peurtorican, it doesnt matter to me....
Idk why it matters to anyone else that their sex or race doesnt getrepresented in form of media...
I dont cry every time a rapper is black,that everyone on America Next Top Model is female, or that no one on rupauls drag race is straight...... lol


hmm a drag queen.. that would be interesting..

Shahkulu101
06-15-2014, 06:45 PM
hmm a drag queen.. that would be interesting..

Confirmed:

Arno is a drag queen. That is precisely what the new disguise system is for.

pacmanate
06-15-2014, 06:46 PM
hmm a drag queen.. that would be interesting..

Would you back up drag queen?

Dome500
06-15-2014, 08:35 PM
I never understood why people "would not pick up a new IP if the protagonist is female"

Hell, what interests me the most in a game is:

- Gameplay
- Story
- Immersion

Not the protagonist... :rolleyes:

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 10:01 PM
I never understood why people "would not pick up a new IP if the protagonist is female"

Hell, what interests me the most in a game is:

- Gameplay
- Story
- Immersion

Not the protagonist... :rolleyes:

The protagonist matters a lot for a 3rd person game simply because they always dominate the cover art or poster. And most people don't actively research gameplay mechanics or plot lines before buying a game

1. Because it takes up time people have things to do
2. You can describe new features all day but if you can't play if with a controller in hand you have no idea how good that is or if it's even a smooth mechanic.
3. Nobody looks at plot lines because they don't want spoilers
4. You have no way to gage how immersive a game is without playing it.

So how to buy a game. We walk in to a store and see a cover of a girl in the jungle. Now I know nothing about that game other than girl in jungle. Next to it is AC4 which has a guy with a pirate flag killing a dude with swords. Ok now I know that game is a male character and about pirates. So now it's time to choose.
Female game:
-Jungle
-Girl

AC4:
-pirates
-male
-jungle

So I being a guy and liking pirates choose AC4 because it suits my interests more. Who knows the girl in the jungle might have had an amazing story but there was a game next to it with a guy doing the same thing. So naturally I pick the one I relate to more. It's not saying the female protag is bad. Hell it could have even been a superior game. But that didn't matter.

And a large majority of gamers are men. And not only that they are casuals(who are more likely to impulse buy based on theme/cover art/and protag. Then to go online and research every game in the store before they go). So the female protagonist in an original IP hurts sales as a consequence of this.

Not saying female protag IPs can't be successful. Look at Tomb Raider. But it isn't nearly as successful as AC or COD. Not because it isn't popular. But because it just doesn't bridge that impulse buy gender gap. Or the stigma in many casuals minds that it may be a girly game.

Put it this way. Most guys don't want their buddy walking in to their house while they are playing AC liberation as Aveline dressed in a frilly dress and parasol. It would be embarassing and he would probably get picked on by his buddies who don't know the game. It's partly that stigma that scares casuals away from girl centered games. It's a combo of peer pressure and the natural impulse to pick a character that matches your own sex.

I'm sure the same goes in the opposite direction actually. Women probably stray away from certain games because they may be too manly.

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 10:20 PM
I liked when the Rosa in Fiore was raided by Borgia guards, Ezio was all panicking to get there, walks in the door and Claudia had bested 4 armed guards with a stiletto, women hold their own as well as anyone in Creed, absolutely I'd embrace a female protagonist, but you have to remember the way history has always treated women, and Assassin do not like to bring undue attention to the Brotherhood, so if there is a female lead you will likely have to see and put up with a lot of chauvinism.

Syler99
06-15-2014, 10:21 PM
Yes I would and you can add to my vote +4 for my other family members (men and women) who'd also buy the game as we all brought the last one.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 10:22 PM
Dudes seducing women needs to be more of a thing. :rolleyes:

Kirokill
06-15-2014, 10:25 PM
Dudes seducing women needs to be more of a thing. :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-LR9MS3sUs

Being discrete is advised.

GunnerGalactico
06-15-2014, 10:30 PM
The gender, race, sexuality... and personality trait doesn't matter to me all. I would still buy the game.

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 10:35 PM
I liked when the Rosa in Fiore was raided by Borgia guards, Ezio was all panicking to get there, walks in the door and Claudia had bested 4 armed guards with a stiletto, women hold their own as well as anyone in Creed, absolutely I'd embrace a female protagonist, but you have to remember the way history has always treated women, and Assassin do not like to bring undue attention to the Brotherhood, so if there is a female lead you will likely have to see and put up with a lot of chauvinism.

And that is exactly why they most likely won't do it. If they did that(which they'd have to to accurately portray an era). Heads would roll! And Ubi would have a PR nightmare. Only making the very problem they'd be trying to solve worse.

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 10:38 PM
Why are most protagonists well off? Connor came from nothing but even he got a hand up from Achilles. Edward is the only one that started with nothing and didn't get handouts from another character. But now we're back to the rich noble. Altair doesn't count since money didn't matter in AC1. Most of the world is poor so why do all the protagonists seem to be from that top 1%?

I wouldn't say that, it is more the fact they gained the advantages of a decent education and had an incredibly wilful work ethic, if everyone had the same advantages it would solve a lot of problems in the world, as long as it is appropriately balanced with a decent code of conduct. The work Connor achieved is implied, Ezio was raised a noble and it seems his father never really intended him to enter the Brotherhood, but after losing everything in Florence he still had Mario to fall back on. So yes, having tutors to guide you is a huge advantage, but the hard yards still need to be put in.

frodrigues55
06-15-2014, 10:39 PM
I just want an interesting set of protagonists.

So far, I am really happy with the main assassins - Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward because their life story and motivations are properly developed. This is all I want. I've seen people wanting a female protagonist or a gay protagonist just to make some kind of statement or add diversification. I for one, do not want them, I just want a good history. If the character is female or gay but tells a good tale, I am all about it. If the character is a straight man with ando also tells good tale, keep them coming as well.

All the 4 protagonists are straight man but they are pretty diverse so far, so I don't believe sex, orientation or color adds to that.

What I tend to dislike about female protagonists is that writters and developers tend to go overboard and melodramatic with them. This is what I hate, and I hope UBI avoids that when making a female protagonist for a full game. This is the main reason why I started to abandon Tomb Raider when Chrystal Dynamics took over, and why I abo****ely hated the new rebooted Lara. Everything is about her and she is always moaning about something. The writter for the game did a terrible job, and the dramatic music and slowdowns make it worse.

GhanaBoiii
06-15-2014, 10:39 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UK3I9Pd9Kes

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 10:41 PM
And that is exactly why they most likely won't do it. If they did that(which they'd have to to accurately portray an era). Heads would roll! And Ubi would have a PR nightmare. Only making the very problem they'd be trying to solve worse.
Not really. If the female protagonist speaks out against this chauvinism, which surely she would, they wouldn't have any PR problem.

So I call BS on this argument.

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 10:43 PM
And that is exactly why they most likely won't do it. If they did that(which they'd have to to accurately portray an era). Heads would roll! And Ubi would have a PR nightmare. Only making the very problem they'd be trying to solve worse.

Exactly; on one hand they have to be somewhat realistic with the plight of women, but in that obviously bad-guys and general scum of the Earth are going to treat her like an object, and that will be confronting, most likely controversial on an already touchy subject. Society would have to really meet Ubisoft with a lot of understanding of how difficult that task is, how to do women justice by basically dragging them through the mud of reality?

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 10:45 PM
What I tend to dislike about female protagonists is that writters and developers tend to go overboard and melodramatic with them. This is what I hate, and I hope UBI avoids that when making a female protagonist for a full game. This is the main reason why I started to abandon Tomb Raider when Chrystal Dynamics took over, and why I abo****ely hated the new rebooted Lara. Everything is about her and she is always moaning about something. The writter for the game did a terrible job, and the dramatic music and slowdowns make it worse.

What? That's something that made her character good. She was realistic. I mean, honestly, I wish more characters would make comments during games. Why the hell don't we hear Assassins cursing after they take a long fall, or during a battle? Sure, you could taunt in the Ezio games but that's not what I mean. Far Cry 3 got it down as well, Jason made a lot of comments during gameplay and he always made disgusted comments while skinning. I loved that about him.

Game characters need to show more emotion, and Tomb Raider (2013) was fantastic and I loved it and Lara.

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 10:47 PM
Not really. If the female protagonist speaks out against this chauvinism, which surely she would, they wouldn't have any PR problem.

So I call BS on this argument.

Absolutely, she mostly would, but the circumstances would have to allow it, it would have to be practical, and generally Feminism isn't the goal of Assassins, and not drawing undue attention to the order is a Tenant they must observe.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 10:47 PM
I just want an interesting set of protagonists.

So far, I am really happy with the main assassins - Altair, Ezio, Connor and Edward because their life story and motivations are properly developed. This is all I want. I've seen people wanting a female protagonist or a gay protagonist just to make some kind of statement or add diversification. I for one, do not want them, I just want a good history. If the character is female or gay but tells a good tale, I am all about it. If the character is a straight man with ando also tells good tale, keep them coming as well.

All the 4 protagonists are straight man but they are pretty diverse so far, so I don't believe sex, orientation or color adds to that.

What I tend to dislike about female protagonists is that writters and developers tend to go overboard and melodramatic with them. This is what I hate, and I hope UBI avoids that when making a female protagonist for a full game. This is the main reason why I started to abandon Tomb Raider when Chrystal Dynamics took over, and why I abo****ely hated the new rebooted Lara. Everything is about her and she is always moaning about something. The writter for the game did a terrible job, and the dramatic music and slowdowns make it worse.


This. Lara Croft's character is entirely reactionary too. She has no character.

Though the upcoming game should change that.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 10:56 PM
Absolutely, she mostly would, but the circumstances would have to allow it, it would have to be practical, and generally Feminism isn't the goal of Assassins, and not drawing undue attention to the order is a Tenant they must observe.
Uh..

Feminism = equal rights between genders
Assassin goals = freedom, equal rights, free will, etc.

Also, a woman Assassin would probably wear garb that makes their gender inconspicuous. I'm pretty sure that when in her Assassin persona, Aveline wasn't always thought to be a woman.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 10:58 PM
This. Lara Croft's character is entirely reactionary too. She has no character.

Though the upcoming game should change that.

Connor has no character.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:00 PM
Connor has no character.

this explains my thoughts well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw-MjVvFjwc

didn't embedd because cuss warning.

I-Like-Pie45
06-15-2014, 11:01 PM
I THINK THAT THE NEW TOMB RAIDER WAS AIMED AT RYONA FANS

IT EXPLAINS A LOT
-----
rc

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 11:02 PM
So yeah, you wouldn't want the game to be hijacked by that ulterior agenda, obviously she would have to address it without obsessing over it, but the thing is chauvinism would likely be a constant presence and it makes it a very difficult subject to factor in without overdoing. With Ade, it was a different situation; slavery was a thing that was confronted head on like that, but womens rights has been won by the minds of brilliant women, not by wars.

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 11:05 PM
Uh..

Feminism = equal rights between genders
Assassin goals = freedom, equal rights, free will, etc.

Also, a woman Assassin would probably wear garb that makes their gender inconspicuous. I'm pretty sure that when in her Assassin persona, Aveline wasn't always thought to be a woman.

That's true, and obviously within the order she would be respected, but I don't know many protagonists who get by without the antagonists being aware of exactly who they are.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:07 PM
BTW Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.

Not necessarily both genders.

Not a big deal, I just wanted to point that out. Minor nitpick.

DumbGamerTag94
06-15-2014, 11:09 PM
Not really. If the female protagonist speaks out against this chauvinism, which surely she would, they wouldn't have any PR problem.

So I call BS on this argument.

Woman speaks out against chauvinism in a historic setting= woman is either more disrespected(along the lines of the scarlet letter or something). Possibly gets beat by someone(that will make great headlines). Or ends up burned as a witch. Or gets shunned to the fringes of society. Yeah that would be a great PR campaign I'm sure. :rolleyes:

People would be calling for a boycott!

It isn't Ubi's fault our ancestors were chauvinistic bigots. But if Ubi depicts that. They will be the ones branded as the Chauvinistic Bigots. Because some crazy politician, or a radical feminist, or news anchors stirring up public anger/fear mongering(which is pretty much all news is anymore..."everything you eat and do will kill you" "Conservatives steal from the poor and give to the rich" "Liberals are trying to turn the US gov into Nazi Germany" it's not reporting these days it's just disgusting propaganda being passed off as news). And it won't even matter if the protag is against it. Her treatment or things depicted will be all the crazies will talk about because it suits their needs. The protag could give a very powerful speech or something. But the soundbite that will make the news will be of someone making rude chauvinistic comments or hitting her(even if it is combat footage or a quick time they would spin it).

So it's either that mess. Or depict it the same way without the protag causing a ruckus. Then Ubi would be that evil company that put bigotry in their games and didn't even address it! That's almost a worse mess than the first option.

So a 3rd option? No chauvinism at all. How? You can't accurately depict an era from a woman's perspective without at least some of it? So they just remove the female perspective and were back to a male protagonist. Back to square one. Where they get accused of being sexist!

You see how none of this makes any sense? How it's just a vicious cycle? And no matter what the do there will always be a group of crazies who take things the wrong way and accuse them of one thing or the other? But it's just better to have people think they are somewhat sexist and prefer male leads. Then to have a highly controversial protag that gets them all over the news in a sexism/chauvinism debate. Then all that game gets known for(all AC would be remembered for) is "that's that game that did all those really sexist things/was horrible to women". Just like GTA got all over the news years ago and now no matter how good the direction, how great the story is, how deep the campaign discusses/satires American life, it will always just be "that game where you run people over and kill prostitutes". Because that's what the media has made it.

Only difference is Rockstar wanted that bad PR to sell the game. To rebellious teens who do whatever their parents tell them not to. AC wouldn't have that it would be a whole disgraceful singling out of Ubi as sexist or opposed to women's civil rights yadda yadda. It would be a nightmare and that is a very high risk of happening if they don't pull off a female historical protagonist PERFECTLY. there would need to be no mistakes. Not one word too far as to set off the **** storm. But it's impossible to gage that limit. One mans cuss word could be tantamount to another's murder. It's too fine a line to walk.

It just isn't worth all the headaches and profit losses and bad PR for their company to risk such a fiasco.

adventurewomen
06-15-2014, 11:09 PM
Connor has no character.
:eek:

I'm surprised you said that

rprkjj
06-15-2014, 11:13 PM
:eek:

I'm surprised you said that

Connor sucks.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:14 PM
So many shots fired at Connor. :rolleyes:

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 11:18 PM
I actually love Connor but I love Lara Croft from the reboot as well. I like all characters pretty much.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:21 PM
Despite me feeling Lara has little to no character, I still enjoy her very much.

Maybe I'm just biased cuz of her cool character design.

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 11:24 PM
So many shots fired at Connor. :rolleyes:

Red Coat=Human Shield, he will be fine.

But Connor is underscored, people think he is naïve, but that isn't true, he knew all too well where his priorities were, they just weren't the same priorities as the politically warped white people he encountered.

adventurewomen
06-15-2014, 11:25 PM
Connor sucks.
That is your subjective opinion..

So many shots fired at Connor. :rolleyes:
I know right :(

I actually love Connor but I love Lara Croft from the reboot as well. I like all characters pretty much.
:)

ze_topazio
06-15-2014, 11:28 PM
Uh..

Feminism = equal rights between genders
Assassin goals = STABBING THEM TEMPLARS

Also, a woman Assassin would probably wear garb that makes their gender inconspicuous. I'm pretty sure that when in her Assassin persona, Aveline wasn't always thought to be a woman.

Fixed

Aveline wears no hood, anyone can see her face and long hair.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:31 PM
Aveline is uuuuuuuuugly.

Nilin is a much more attractive halfblack woman IMO.

and lol Assassin's goals.

I feel like the only one who thinks the assassins as a whole can be pretty stupid. Same goes for some templars.

I-Like-Pie45
06-15-2014, 11:31 PM
fixed

aveline wears no hood, anyone can see her face and long hair.

THERE'S A HAT THOUGH
I MEAN A LOT OF GUYS BACK THEN HAD HADS AND LONG HAIR THAT WAS TIED BACK
LIKE AVELINE
ALL SHE REALLY NEEDS TO DO TO MAKE HER GENDER NEUTRAL IS BIND HER TATAS SO HER CHEST APPEARS FLAT AND ALSO PAD OUT HER CURVES SO HER FIGURE IS LESS APPARENTLY FEMALE

rc

Kirokill
06-15-2014, 11:32 PM
Caps?

Shahkulu101
06-15-2014, 11:33 PM
I like her curves and tatas

She sexy, but not sexualised

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:34 PM
Am I the only one secretly hoping blue outfits w/ tricorn hats become the templar shtick?

I know they don't have them in modern day but...

I want them to have that tradition like assassins have hoods and red sash and hidden blade and y'know.

They have the templar ring but c'mon templars deserve more than that, yo.

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 11:34 PM
you can give Aveline a hood.

I'm just saying, it's not hard to make a female character look male in inconspicuous gear.

In any case, I do think we will get a Shao Jun game eventually.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:35 PM
Shao Jun is waaaaaaaay cooler than Aveline IMO.

I would buy her game twice if she got one. She's awesome. :cool:

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 11:37 PM
THERE'S A HAT THOUGH
I MEAN A LOT OF GUYS BACK THEN HAD HADS AND LONG HAIR THAT WAS TIED BACK
LIKE AVELINE
ALL SHE REALLY NEEDS TO DO TO MAKE HER GENDER NEUTRAL IS BIND HER TATAS SO HER CHEST APPEARS FLAT AND ALSO PAD OUT HER CURVES SO HER FIGURE IS LESS APPARENTLY FEMALE

rc

That is another issue that it would raise, being "gender neutral"? Or posing as a man? Blending is something Assassins do and do well, but avoiding being a woman is not really facing being a woman now.

But anyway, like I said I'd definitely like a female protagonist for a bit of character variety, and even a new perspective, but it will be a challenge for Ubisoft to do, they may have to alter their famous disclaimer "This work of fiction was developed by a multicultural team with various faiths, beliefs+sexes and sexualities"

adventurewomen
06-15-2014, 11:50 PM
Aveline is uuuuuuuuugly.

Nilin is a much more attractive halfblack woman IMO..
I disagree Aveline was beautiful, her Lady outfit showed that.

pacmanate
06-15-2014, 11:52 PM
Aveline was hot, she had a bit of a baby face though

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:53 PM
Her face is just.... hngh

http://www.play-mag.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Screen-Shot-2013-09-10-at-09.33.16.png

not my style yo.

I prefer this lady

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/156/a/a/remember_me___nilin_by_ivances-d5c71te.png

I-Like-Pie45
06-15-2014, 11:55 PM
I DON'T FIND HER VERY HOT AT ALL

BUT I SUPPOSE I'VE ALREADY EXPLAINED MY UNPOPULAR REASONING FOR IT ENOUGH NOW SO I WON'T SAY WHY

----
rc

Jexx21
06-15-2014, 11:56 PM
they're both beautiful

raytrek79
06-15-2014, 11:58 PM
I DON'T FIND HER VERY HOT AT ALL

BUT I SUPPOSE I'VE ALREADY EXPLAINED MY UNPOPULAR REASONING FOR IT ENOUGH NOW SO I WON'T SAY WHY

----
rc

If that "unpopular reason" is she has the body of a 12 year old boy, I agree.

JustPlainQuirky
06-15-2014, 11:59 PM
No homo, but I appreciate women character designs from plenty fields.

black
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/156/a/a/remember_me___nilin_by_ivances-d5c71te.png
asian
http://pixelbedlam.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mirrors-Edge-Mirrors-Edge-2-Frostbite-Engine-Wallpaper-HD-Faith-3-e1369857411740.jpg
Red head
http://vnmedia.ign.com/screenshots/witcher/95086364.jpg


come at me

silvermercy
06-16-2014, 12:01 AM
I'd play it of course. As long as she doesn't try to "seduce" her targets or have other stereotypes of that sort (like implant-like tatas... :rolleyes:)

rprkjj
06-16-2014, 12:19 AM
No homo, but I appreciate women character designs from plenty fields.

black
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/156/a/a/remember_me___nilin_by_ivances-d5c71te.png
asian
http://pixelbedlam.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mirrors-Edge-Mirrors-Edge-2-Frostbite-Engine-Wallpaper-HD-Faith-3-e1369857411740.jpg
Red head
http://vnmedia.ign.com/screenshots/witcher/95086364.jpg


come at me

That's black?

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 12:25 AM
Well she's technically half-black like Aveline.

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 12:29 AM
A female could certainly use being a female to an advantage as an Assassin; by getting around, as you say, in a hood and cloak, what she could do is have that outfit easily transformed into an elegant ladies dress, this would serve as a way to blend and lose guards where men have to hide in haystacks and wells, she could also do that but have this trick available, just an innocent shopper or passer-by.

There are ideas I was having like this if there were ever a Shogun Japan Creed; like Connor has his whistle for back-up (Eagle Screech or whatever) you could call a friend to bring you Samurai armour, and wearing this would give you combat resilience and certain other advantages, but taking it off grants speed and stealth all Ninja-like.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 12:29 AM
A lot of half-coloured characters. I wonder if it's because they don't want to make them full-on black/non-white.

I think Connor had a legitimate reason to be half and half - a story reason. You know part of me wants to repel the outsider but I'm the outsider bla bla bla...

On another note, Faith is really attractive.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 12:33 AM
I say designers tend to go not full-black for marketing reasons.

I will admit sometimes I have subconsiously stayed away from a game for having a black dude on the cover in my younger years. (prototype 2)

It's totally a subconsious psychologial thing.

I've long since grown out of it though as I got more into gaming.

@faith

indeed she is

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 12:36 AM
I say designers tend to go not full-black for marketing reasons.

I will admit sometimes I have subconsiously stayed away from a game for having a black dude on the cover in my younger years. (prototype 2)

It's totally a subconsious psychologial thing.

I've long since grown out of it though as I got more into gaming.

@faith

indeed she is

I hated that you went from playing an anti-hero to a hero out for vengeance. I wanted to stay evilish >;[

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 12:36 AM
I say not full-black for marketing reasons.

I will admit sometimes I have subconsiously stayed away from a game for having a black dude on the cover in my younger years. (prototype 2)

It's totally a subconsious psychologial thing.

I've long since grown out of it though as I got more into gaming.

So...

YOU ONLY LIKE ALEX MERCER BECAUSE HE'S PROTOTYPE'S ONLY WHITE LEAD YOU BIGOT

@sesheenku What do you mean it didn't help as if being black is actually a con?

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 12:37 AM
@sesh

Yeah Alex Mercer > Heller by FAAAAAAR

I secretly hope prototype 3 happens and he overpowers Heller in the hive mind. And that he kicks heller out of his body and goes back to normal anti-hero self. :cool:

@sesh

yeah totally :cool:

nothing to do with his character or anything

but tbh i couldn't relate to heller. why should i care about his wife and daughter when in prototype 1 i was killing old ladies for fun?

pacmanate
06-16-2014, 12:38 AM
http://www.kineda.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jessica_cambensy_assassins_creed_3.jpeg

I-Like-Pie45
06-16-2014, 12:41 AM
HEY PAC

DO YOU LIKE TATAS

----
rc

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 12:43 AM
So...

YOU ONLY LIKE ALEX MERCER BECAUSE HE'S PROTOTYPE'S ONLY WHITE LEAD YOU BIGOT

@sesheenku What do you mean it didn't help as if being black is actually a con?

C'mon did you even read my post?

I said I wanted to continue being an evilish bastard (Alex) but Heller is just on a quest for vengeance... he's essentially a good guy.. That's not what I wanted from my Prototype.


http://www.kineda.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/jessica_cambensy_assassins_creed_3.jpeg









DAYUUUUUUUUUUUUMN

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 12:44 AM
A shade lighter than midnight characters like Adewale test well, but for some reason females test better mixed raced, Asian women and mixed Asian women test well, You can only speculate why.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 12:45 AM
C'mon did you even read my post?

I said I wanted to continue being an evilish bastard (Alex) but Heller is just on a quest for vengeance... he's essentially a good guy.. That's not what I wanted from my Prototype.

I did and you said it 'didn't help' as if him being black was another negative along with his good guy mentality.

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 12:46 AM
I did and you said it 'didn't help' as if him being black was another negative along with his good guy mentality.

Ah I see what you mean... I better edit that post before I have to put up with a bunch of **** tards jumping to conclusions.

pacmanate
06-16-2014, 12:47 AM
HEY PAC

DO YOU LIKE TATAS

----
rc

Tbf, I prefer a nice bum, but hers look natural and nice.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 12:49 AM
Tbf, I prefer a nice bum, but hers look natural and nice.

Agreed.

I like my legs, too.

Wolfmeister1010
06-16-2014, 12:49 AM
The next game NEEDS to be in China. Not Japan..CHINA. And it needs to be Shao Jun. I am kinda obsessed with her..and her fighting style is so awesome.

silvermercy
06-16-2014, 12:50 AM
Tbf, I prefer a nice bum, but hers look natural and nice.
Unfortunately, they have implants. lol It's obvious from the line they form around the edges. (source: I work with plastic surgeon medics in my lab). ;)

Legendz54
06-16-2014, 12:50 AM
Tbf, I prefer a nice bum, but hers look natural and nice.

http://f1.pepst.com/c/E94C05/222546/ssc3/home/004/wapalulicius/albums/biggest_***.jpg_480_480_0_64000_0_1_0.jpg

I-Like-Pie45
06-16-2014, 12:51 AM
The next game NEEDS to be in China. Not Japan..CHINA. And it needs to be Shao Jun. I am kinda obsessed with her..and her fighting style is so awesome.

OFC

ONCE AN ALLY, ALWAYS AN ALLY, HUH?

----
rc

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 12:51 AM
Mani i gave u the pic. change ur avatar

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 12:53 AM
The next game NEEDS to be in China. Not Japan..CHINA. And it needs to be Shao Jun. I am kinda obsessed with her..and her fighting style is so awesome.

I have no qualms about where the next game could or should be, as long as they keep coming. But Black Flag was playing safe on the Pirate craze, they will keep Ninjas an option in their back pocket for when they think the franchise needs a boost.

Legendz54
06-16-2014, 12:55 AM
Mani i gave u the pic. change ur avatar

I am lazy but i will do for you

Jexx21
06-16-2014, 01:00 AM
What if Comet is Shao Jun.

Comet needs to be announced already.

I-Like-Pie45
06-16-2014, 01:07 AM
What if Comet is Shao Jun.

Comet needs to be announced already.

用去年的技术做中国游戏会浪费中国的潜力

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 01:19 AM
Mani you look lovely today

rprkjj
06-16-2014, 01:50 AM
A lot of half-coloured characters. I wonder if it's because they don't want to make them full-on black/non-white.

I think Connor had a legitimate reason to be half and half - a story reason. You know part of me wants to repel the outsider but I'm the outsider bla bla bla...

On another note, Faith is really attractive.

I think she's kinda meh in the first one. Dat bowel cut. In the footage for the new one she looks stunning.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgematsu.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FME2-Announce-E313.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgematsu.com%2F2013%2F06%2Fm irrors-edge-2-announced&h=338&w=600&tbnid=VEFoB1l8wEmkcM%3A&zoom=1&docid=EFp-h06Kj8SukM&ei=cz-eU8naGJOHyASD24CgBw&tbm=isch&client=chrome-mobile&ved=0CB8QMygCMAI&iact=rc&uact=3&page=1&start=0&ndsp=6

poptartz20
06-16-2014, 02:43 AM
A lot of half-coloured characters. I wonder if it's because they don't want to make them full-on black/non-white.

I think Connor had a legitimate reason to be half and half - a story reason. You know part of me wants to repel the outsider but I'm the outsider bla bla bla...

On another note, Faith is really attractive.

. . . I think there are more Biracial characters because they are now becoming more relatable throughout the world. Races are mixing more and more I doubt there are too many "pure" anythings anymore.

frodrigues55
06-16-2014, 02:47 AM
What? That's something that made her character good. She was realistic. I mean, honestly, I wish more characters would make comments during games. Why the hell don't we hear Assassins cursing after they take a long fall, or during a battle? Sure, you could taunt in the Ezio games but that's not what I mean. Far Cry 3 got it down as well, Jason made a lot of comments during gameplay and he always made disgusted comments while skinning. I loved that about him.

Game characters need to show more emotion, and Tomb Raider (2013) was fantastic and I loved it and Lara.

There are plenty of ways to show emotions without turning the whole thing a cheesefest, though. That's my problem with this new reboot Lara, it's just so melodramatic it hurts. I doubt they would handle a male protagonist like that. They abuse the fake crying, the dramatic music in cue moments, the awful "powerful" sentences, the camera slowdowns when someone is dying. It's not natural. The acting is horrible too, which doesn't help the fake drama going on. Just compare these two death scenes:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjvCoVCxTcc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx4jY9ujWnA


They are basically the same scene using the same elements, but Black Flag's just so much more elegant, especially when gameplay resumes with the distant sound. It was supposed to be an important moment in Tomb Raider, but instead, I couldn't stop feeling embarassed by that execution. The whole game felt that way to me. And that is not the only problem I had with it.

The "character" development in the reboot is non existant and arbitrary. How would you define this new Lara Croft? The game was built around the fact that she is Lara Croft and that's it, it made no effort to present who that person is exactly. Their foundation for this game was that Lara was just another person at that point, changed by whatever happened in the game - the execution of this concept, however, failed right from the start of the game. Every single person she interacted with made an effort to say that she was this little special thing, this savior who was destined to great things. "You're a Croft, you can do this!". "Lara, remember who you are!". "If anyone knows what to do, it's you Lara". Even Reyes kept repeating how everything was her fault, when there was no reason to do that except if you want to make her the center of attention at any cost. It was bad storytelling. It always is, when you have to rely on side characters to point out what should be implied. Even NPCs kept repeating how that girl was tough. It shouldn't need that.

And why does Lara Croft have to be someone special, though? Since when she became a hero? I come from the classic Tomb Raiders, where Lara's bio was quite basic but you still knew what to expect. The dialogues were clever, she was smart and had great replies. That's why she became such a strong character, there was a clear definition of who she was - not a hero, more like the anti-hero, and a bit egoistical as well. A true adventurer who did things just because she liked the feeling. Characters are made of virtues and flaws, can you point a flaw in this rebooted Lara? Or anything that sets her apart from great characters? Replace her for any other random character and it still works the same, because there's nothing remarkable about her. It's generic and if this was a new IP, she would be easily forgotten.

I don't know if you ever got a chance to play the old games, but check out these quick cutscenes. Don't mind the obviously dated graphics, but you can see what kind of dialogues the old Lara would have:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYw9blh26vI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd4WHtakJQA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtYcLmHHXdI

You didn't even have to give her a single line to get character out of her:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bpemg1d1GQ



This is what I am still waiting to see again. Now, compare the reboot Lara to that kid in The Last of Us, she is the perfect unexperienced Lara Croft, from head to toe - but of course they had to go ahead and make the whole thing lesbianic, just like Tomb Raider reboot and that horrible, horrible Sam thing. That's my other problem with female lead character, you can't have a strong one unless it's lesbian. That scene where Lara carries Sam in her arms was just ridiculous.

Anyway, this is a bit on the OT side, but I'm just so pissed and what is going on with what used to be my favorite franchise :( The point I'm trying to make is: I don't mind female protagonists for AC, as long as the writters manage to create an interesting character, free of the clichés and melodrama that usually comes with it.


This. Lara Croft's character is entirely reactionary too. She has no character.

Yeah, agreed. I hope they change as well, but have you read the comics? I read one of them as they are supposed to tie the games in, but that was not a good sign.

Jexx21
06-16-2014, 02:47 AM
I'm a pure Jexxian

Lara in Tomb Raider wasn't lesbian, or at least she wasn't confirmed to be. It's ambiguous. Aveline actually has the same issue, some see a connection between her and that woman in Liberation, as well as the girl in the Black Flag Aveline DLC (that girl is literally offering herself to Aveline if you recognize the lingo used).

I didn't feel like the emotions Lara showed were melodramatic, so I won't argue that with you since it's a matter of opinion. I would call Lara in the reboot a woman (who was studying archaeology and anthropology in college/university) who is thrust into a dangerous world and forced to learn how to adapt and survive, and she comes out stronger and saves her best friend (love interest in some peoples' eyes), and is set on the path to becoming the Tomb Raider. I never played any of the previous Tomb Raider's, but I do know of them, and I suppose that I did register various aspects of the story in the context of that. The Crofts seem to be a family that are well known for being adventurers and risk takers, and that's why the other characters put so much emphasis on her being a Croft, but it's also because she has in fact shown great skill in the game itself and she was the hero that has to save the day to the other characters. It may be a bit barebones, but for what it is I loved the story. Of course, to be frank, I loved Tomb Raider most of all for it's set pieces and what you actually do in the game.

Maybe you'll like Rise of the Tomb Raider better.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 03:15 AM
. . . I think there are more Biracial characters because they are now becoming more relatable throughout the world. Races are mixing more and more I doubt there are too many "pure" anythings anymore.

I'm mixed race, I'm not bothered by it but was just wondering.

frodrigues55
06-16-2014, 03:22 AM
Lara in Tomb Raider wasn't lesbian, or at least she wasn't confirmed to be. It's ambiguous. Aveline actually has the same issue, some see a connection between her and that woman in Liberation, as well as the girl in the Black Flag Aveline DLC (that girl is literally offering herself to Aveline if you recognize the lingo used).

I didn't feel like the emotions Lara showed were melodramatic, so I won't argue that with you since it's a matter of opinion. I would call Lara in the reboot a woman (who was studying archaeology and anthropology in college/university) who is thrust into a dangerous world and forced to learn how to adapt and survive, and she comes out stronger and saves her best friend (love interest in some peoples' eyes), and is set on the path to becoming the Tomb Raider. I never played any of the previous Tomb Raider's, but I do know of them, and I suppose that I did register various aspects of the story in the context of that. The Crofts seem to be a family that are well known for being adventurers and risk takers, and that's why the other characters put so much emphasis on her being a Croft, but it's also because she has in fact shown great skill in the game itself and she was the hero that has to save the day to the other characters. It may be a bit barebones, but for what it is I loved the story. Of course, to be frank, I loved Tomb Raider most of all for it's set pieces and what you actually do in the game.

Maybe you'll like Rise of the Tomb Raider better.

I actually have spent so much time editing my post to make my point across, that you replied me before I was over with it lol. Sorry about that, I did rewrite a few things and add a few video examples, if you want to check it out. As I mentioned, Lara was never this "someone special" in the classic games, and certainly not a hero. It was only when Chrystal Dynamics took over that they made her that, without a single flaw. Ironically, their attempts to add depth to her character is what is stripping her away from any character. "Being Lara" is all she is now, that's what is bugging me as an old time fan. Perharps I would see things differently if I was new to the franchise, but to be honest, I doubt I would be a fan if it wasn't by her past games.

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 03:24 AM
I actually have spent so much time editing my post to make my point across, that you replied me before I was over with it lol. Sorry about that, I did rewrite a few things and add a few video examples, if you want to check it out. As I mentioned, Lara was never this "someone special" in the classic games, and certainly not a hero. It was only when Chrystal Dynamics took over that they made her that, without a single flaw. Ironically, their attempts to add depth to her character is what is stripping her away from any character. "Being Lara" is all she is now, that's what is bugging me as an old time fan. Perharps I would see things differently if I was new to the franchise, but to be honest, I doubt I would be a fan if it wasn't by her past games.

I'd heard of her games but never played them before this.

I enjoyed the reboot immensely, put in 69 hours as of now actually.

Then again I can be pretty forgiving story and character wise if the game play is good enough to distract me and it is.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 03:25 AM
Previous games?... You mean interactive pornos.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/5073-obama-laughing.jpg


I'd heard of her games but never played them before this.

I enjoyed the reboot immensely, put in 69 hours as of now actually.

Then again I can be pretty forgiving story and character wise if the game play is good enough to distract me and it is.

Lol 69...into Lara

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 03:31 AM
Previous games?... You mean interactive pornos.

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/5073-obama-laughing.jpg

Interactive porno you say ;]?

No... no... silly me that's too low res.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 03:32 AM
Interactive porno you say ;]?

No... no... silly me that's too low res.

Triangular polygon titayz are the best kind of titayz

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 03:40 AM
Triangular polygon titayz are the best kind of titayz

Modded Skyrim has spoiled me. I need moar polygonz.

dbzk1999
06-16-2014, 03:43 AM
Lara in Tomb Raider wasn't lesbian, or at least she wasn't confirmed to be. It's ambiguous. Aveline actually has the same issue, some see a connection between her and that woman in Liberation, as well as the girl in the Black Flag Aveline DLC (that girl is literally offering herself to Aveline if you recognize the lingo

Considerig it was confirmed that Avelines does have a descendant I sincerely doubt that

phoenix-force411
06-16-2014, 06:14 AM
This is getting ridiculous with the whole female protagonist thing.

HiddenKiller612
06-16-2014, 07:35 AM
I would and I have... I bought Liberation HD and thought it was good...a change of pace what with dressing as a lady and having different personas. What if the next game were a Viking game, you could play as a shield maiden....
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/93/eb/c6/93ebc63ed1baccded99a5dc02f24d678.jpg

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:38 AM
Liberation HD suuuuuuucked imo.

I didn't even know what I was doing or why. I wasn't invested at all.

ace3001
06-16-2014, 08:15 AM
If the game looks good, of course.
Simply put, the protagonist's gender won't be a factor that makes up my decision whether to buy the game.

ace3001
06-16-2014, 08:17 AM
Liberation HD suuuuuuucked imo.

I didn't even know what I was doing or why. I wasn't invested at all.
Yeah, it sucked. But Aveline being a girl wasn't the reason for that. It was a terrible spinoff game not made by Ubisoft Montreal, just like Assassin's Creed Bloodlines before it.

pacmanate
06-16-2014, 11:42 AM
Unfortunately, they have implants. lol It's obvious from the line they form around the edges. (source: I work with plastic surgeon medics in my lab). ;)

I said "looks" :p dont ruin it for me

Dag_B
06-16-2014, 11:59 AM
Considerig it was confirmed that Avelines does have a descendant I sincerely doubt that
Gayness (or bisexuality) does not render you infertile, you know? Although I somehow doubt Ubisoft would go the path of unloving marriage (just for the sake of being married) or even let her be raped to get a descendant. I would also guess a backstory of having heterosexual sex once only to get a child would also be too complicated, so she probably isn't pure lesbian. But bisexuality would still be an option.
(I did not play Liberation, so I do not know how heavy this is implied or not)

rob.davies2014
06-16-2014, 12:24 PM
A lot of people seem to forget that Constance had a device that could let her see into the immediate future. This allowed her to finish a lot of Aveline's sentences and I think people have misinterpreted this as a romantic connection between the two.

Ferrith
06-16-2014, 12:29 PM
I couldn't care less about an Assassin's sex. What always matters to me is the story and the way it is told.

jdowny
06-16-2014, 01:32 PM
To be honest, I'm surprised there's even 9 people saying they wouldn't. As for a female character, Ubisoft has already proven that it can create a strong, appealing female protagonist with Aveline.

What does annoy me is when they sexualise female characters for no reason, giving them ridiculous cleavage, busts and long legs, as though if they weren't attractive people would suddenly turn off the game. It's hard to think of a single female character in all the AC games who weren't given this treatment. Look at Rosa, Cristina Vespucci, Teodora and Caterina Sforza in AC II alone, or every single female Templar in the series. Even Debbie Carter, the recruit in AC III, had a bust bigger than Lara Croft.

It's not so much the lack of female characters that annoys me, but their sexualisation. In this regard I really feel Ubisoft needs to grow up.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 01:40 PM
General (and irrelevant) question: Can guys be sexualised and if so how?

Was Edward sexualised because he was topless a lot? What of Connor in TOWK?

jdowny
06-16-2014, 02:17 PM
Interesting question. The obvious answer is yes they can be sexualised, but I'm probably of the wrong sexuality to say how. Edward with his shirt off in the Caribbean isn't in itself overtly sexual - it's a normal thing to do in hot weather. I guess the muscles and tattoos went some way towards this as well, but again this probably would have been normal for sailors and pirates, and a guy with his top off isn't as sexual as a girl with her top off.

So what it boils down to is that the sexualisation of women in the games goes against the historical evidence. Most women in the sort of societies we've seen in the AC games would have been covered up. In 18th century England for instance, a bit of ankle cleavage was enough to send men nuts. On the rare occasion where you do get women elevating themselves to the rank of men in historical society (Joan of Arc for instance) they would often make themselves appear more masculine, not more feminine.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 02:23 PM
General (and irrelevant) question: Can guys be sexualised and if so how?

Was Edward sexualised because he was topless a lot? What of Connor in TOWK?

Eh, I'm not sure if it counts as sexualized.

Or maybe it just didn't work on me because I don't like Edward that much.

Shahkulu101
06-16-2014, 02:26 PM
I guess if Ezio wore a mankini that would be sexualisation as that is an impractical outfit for dangerous parkour and combat. It'd be like Aveline or Lara Croft running about in lingerie.

AherasSTRG
06-16-2014, 03:38 PM
General (and irrelevant) question: Can guys be sexualised and if so how?

Was Edward sexualised because he was topless a lot? What of Connor in TOWK?

I think women don't perceive sexuality the same way as men do.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 03:41 PM
I agree with Adher.

I saw a skit once where a guy unzipped his pants infront of a lady cop to get his way out of a ticket. T'was hilarious.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-16-2014, 03:44 PM
@ Aher

Agreed.

@ Mayrice

WTF lol

m4r-k7
06-16-2014, 03:44 PM
Tomb Raider was the most over sexualized game I have ever played. Every thing that came out of Lara's voice was literally an orgasm. They would do the same thing with a female assasin I think, but I wouldn't mind one. I just care about a good story and gameplay.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 03:45 PM
lololol I personally find it hilarious.

I mean what else can a guy show off? His bare chest? lol

@m4k

You mean the reboot?

I disagree. It's much more tame than its predacessors.

m4r-k7
06-16-2014, 03:47 PM
@Mayrice

Yep the reboot

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-16-2014, 03:47 PM
I heard that the developers of Tomb Raider had made her breast size a mistake.

Apparently, they blew it up to 110% of what is was supposed to be. Looks like that mistake turned out good for most of the [guy] fans lol

AherasSTRG
06-16-2014, 03:47 PM
Do you know how Lara Croft's huge breasts came to be?

Well, back in the day, game developers used to check the math of the games by hand. And one day before the original Tomb Raider went gold, the creative director was checking the character models and accidentally changed the torso proportions from 50% to 150%.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 03:48 PM
Really?

She's not even big in size.

Her original concept must've been flat-chested.

AherasSTRG
06-16-2014, 03:49 PM
I heard that the developers of Tomb Raider had made her breast size a mistake.

Apparently, they blew it up to 110% of what is was supposed to be. Looks like that mistake turned out good for most of the [guy] fans lol

Haha, I was writing the exact same thing as you were.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 03:56 PM
I heard that the developers of Tomb Raider had made her breast size a mistake.

Apparently, they blew it up to 110% of what is was supposed to be. Looks like that mistake turned out good for most of the [guy] fans lol

Because apparently there didn't exist an 'undo' button back in the days..


She's not even big in size.

Nah, her original size was huge. It was literally as big as her face.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-16-2014, 04:00 PM
Really?

She's not even big in size.

Her original concept must've been flat-chested.

Maybe. Btw, she was supposed to be a guy too, but they already had Indiana Jones explorer-like games.


Haha, I was writing the exact same thing as you were.
Haha, yea I saw that. Great minds think alike. :D

frodrigues55
06-16-2014, 04:04 PM
That's actually some sort of myth, regarding her breast size.

It was indeed an accident with the mouse, but it was slide based, so it could be fixed in a matter of seconds by sliding it back to a smaller size. The reason why they never changed it back is because the team loved it, lol. So yea, it was a mistake first, but the decision to keep it in was deliberated.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 04:08 PM
Someone up at Core must have realllly liked what he saw ;)

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 04:12 PM
There is one inherent factor of discrimination about AC that no one brings up; people who never have offspring will never be a protagonist...you have to push the "Mommy/Daddy" button if you want to be remembered.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 04:15 PM
There is one inherent factor of discrimination about AC that no one brings up; people who never have offspring will never be a protagonist...

That's not discrimination.

It's totally just treatment.

It's a game about reliviing people's ancestors. Of course the ancestors have to have offspring.

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 04:16 PM
It's not discrimination because it is inherent.

frodrigues55
06-16-2014, 04:20 PM
Someone up at Core must have realllly liked what he saw ;)

My money's on Toby Gard.

I mean, he kept complaining that Core oversexualized Lara for the promo material in TR 2 through 6, but as soon as he came back this is the stuff they put in game:


http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/041/6/2/8_by_tanyacroft-d5ujr1b.jpg

http://www.tombraidergirl.com/pics/outfits/tr7/eveningred.jpg

http://www.tombraidergirl.com/pics/outfits/tr7/bikini.jpg

http://laracroftcosplay.com/HelpWithOutfits/reference/wetsuit.jpg

That old perv.

RatonhnhakeFan
06-16-2014, 06:01 PM
What the hell are you people talking about? there's no need for any offspring in this franchise anymore. And this isn't even about gay assassins. Since the series began, they've introduced multiple plot devices that bypass the need for children. Shroud of Eden, Memory Seals, blood vials. How many times this has been discussed already lol? They even found a way to show memory of death experience. At this stage, there are no more restrictions on past memories that can't be bypassed, it all already happened.

Kakuzu745
06-16-2014, 06:56 PM
I would buy an AC game but it is really not relevant for me if the protagonist is a male or a female. I have always say it...gimme something fresh like an Aveline and Connor CO-OP game.

An AC game with a female protagonist would basically be the same thing which is really not an important step for the series

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 06:59 PM
Aveline and Connor CO-OP game.



Want.

I want it.

I need it..

Give it to me.

As long as Ubi doesn't make them a couple.

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 07:15 PM
What the hell are you people talking about? there's no need for any offspring in this franchise anymore. And this isn't even about gay assassins. Since the series began, they've introduced multiple plot devices that bypass the need for children. Shroud of Eden, Memory Seals, blood vials. How many times this has been discussed already lol? They even found a way to show memory of death experience. At this stage, there are no more restrictions on past memories that can't be bypassed, it all already happened.

Yes, you just need a blood sample to be able to explore a persons ancestry, obviously because as far as we know Desmond doesn't have any kids, but you will be doing well to find workable blood samples from people who lived hundreds of years ago and who never had kids.

Memory seals like the ones Ezio found of Altair in Revelations and were made after Altair seeded offspring, implies you have access to POE's, and I don't know much about the Shroud...actually I've never heard of it.

But it will be interesting to see how many vials can be found, maybe there is a storage facility somewhere full of them(?)

ze_topazio
06-16-2014, 07:17 PM
As if this series science wasn't crazy enough already you want to make it even crazier.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:19 PM
As if this series science wasn't crazy enough already you want to make it even crazier.

anything for social justice yo

GunnarGunderson
06-16-2014, 07:24 PM
I'd play it if it was a good game. Liberation was terrible and it had nothing to do with Aveline being female (although she was a terrible boring character)

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:25 PM
Yeah Liberation sucked.

Vajayjay or no Vajayjay

ze_topazio
06-16-2014, 07:26 PM
I enjoyed Liberation HD even with all the problems but then I also enjoyed Bloodlines, I guess I'm too easily entertained.

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 07:28 PM
I enjoyed Liberation HD even with all the problems but then I also enjoyed Bloodlines, I guess I'm too easily entertained.

I've only ever played the PS3 games, so I am missing a whole bunch of stuff, including DLC.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:30 PM
I enjoyed Liberation HD even with all the problems but then I also enjoyed Bloodlines, I guess I'm too easily entertained.

filthy casual.

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:31 PM
Oh I still enjoyed Liberation.

Still was kinda sucky.

Only beat it for connor and Eurodito subplot

RatonhnhakeFan
06-16-2014, 07:32 PM
Yes, you just need a blood sample to be able to explore a persons ancestry, obviously because as far as we know Desmond doesn't have any kids, but you will be doing well to find workable blood samples from people who lived hundreds of years ago and who never had kids.

Memory seals like the ones Ezio found of Altair in Revelations and were made after Altair seeded offspring, implies you have access to POE's, and I don't know much about the Shroud...actually I've never heard of it.

But it will be interesting to see how many vials can be found, maybe there is a storage facility somewhere full of them(?)Then get the DNA from bones. It is perfectly extractable and "fresh" for at least 500 years (half time life of DNA). Sans Altair, Abstergo/modern assassins could've retrieved the remains of any of the protagonists from AC2 up to Unity and just get their DNA from bones, they all lived within the +/- 500 period from modern day.

Not to even mention the blood vials.

Or the fact that the only thing necessary to pull something like this off is... writing it in. Like they do with everything else they want to write in.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:33 PM
How does one enjoy something and finds it sucky at the same time? :O

RatonhnhakeFan
06-16-2014, 07:36 PM
How does one enjoy something and finds it sucky at the same time? :O
It starts with b and rhymes with 'mob' :rolleyes:

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:36 PM
How does one enjoy something and finds it sucky at the same time? :O

I can still appreciate some aspects of a game I find flawed.

Remember Me I admit is horribly flawed but it's still in my top 10 games :o

raytrek79
06-16-2014, 07:37 PM
Then get the DNA from bones. It is perfectly extractable and "fresh" for at least 500 years (half time life of DNA). Sans Altair, Abstergo/modern assassins could've retrieved the remains of any of the protagonists from AC2 up to Unity and just get their DNA from bones, they all lived within the +/- 500 period from modern day.

Not to even mention the blood vials.

Or the fact that the only thing necessary to pull something like this off is... writing it in. Like they do with everything else they want to write in.

True, I recently seen a doco on a woolly mammoth that they managed to extract workable DNA from, potential to seed modern elephants with it to clone, and that sample was thousands of years old, so under the right circumstances yes. As long as someone wasn't cremated :p

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:37 PM
It starts with b and rhymes with 'mob' :rolleyes:

bob?

:/

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:39 PM
I got called "Bob" !?

The fiend! Take that back!

RatonhnhakeFan
06-16-2014, 07:39 PM
True, I recently seen a doco on a woolly mammoth that they managed to extract workable DNA from, potential to seed modern elephants with it to clone, and that sample was thousands of years old, so under the right circumstances yes. As long as someone wasn't cremated :p

They're gonna do it within our lifetime (assuming we all live up to 60s/70s/80s :p ) I can't wait, I wanna see real mammoths already <3

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:39 PM
I can still appreciate some aspects of a game I find flawed.

I shee


Remember Me I admit is horribly flawed but it's still in my top 10 games :o

Funny thing is that I was just playing it a while ago. Its combo-based combat I find sort of addictive..

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:45 PM
Pffft The combo mix is pointless. No reason to press anything longer than the 3 buttton XXX combo because your combo will surely be interrupted by an oncoming attacker.

The game would have been more well-recieved I feel if each enemy didnt take 50 punches to kill and come in groups of 6.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:49 PM
I pull off 8 hit combos with ease.. And enemies dont take fifty hits to kill if you mix your combos and those power-thingies,

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 07:55 PM
Oh well I always have to dodge or take hits.

And yes you could use the power things but in order to recharge them you need to get in more punches. even with the purple power booster punches it's still time consuming.

at least for me.

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 07:59 PM
You can continue combos after dodging. I admit I was initially frustrated too, but found that there is a small window that lets you continue. And yes, those power boosters help but the more on right it is, the more it affects. So while pulling off a first rank cooldown punch is easy, an 8th rank one is harder but more effective. I think i had one of my combos structured so that it let me reuse powers after every 5-6 punches.

So what else did you like in the game?

JustPlainQuirky
06-16-2014, 08:03 PM
I like the overall atmosphere. I loved the character designs and characters. I love the annoying newslady who called Nilin Edge's butt buddy. lol. I love the plot. People were saying the memory controlling theme has been done before but it's done waaaaay less than zombie apocolypse so I feel they don't get enough credit for trying something somewhat original. I really like the spammer gun. I especially liked the re-arranging memories game, as morally questionable as they were. But the game made it clear memory re-arranging was kind of messed up so I appreciate that.

I just wish the game got a sequel. It was super open-ended. Yeah it was made in 2013, so there is hope. But it is published by capcom, the same company that has Megaman on lockdown. So I don't see Remember Me getting a sequel anytime soon.

Kakuzu745
06-16-2014, 08:13 PM
Want.

I want it.

I need it..

Give it to me.

As long as Ubi doesn't make them a couple.

I know...deep down we all want it :D

Aveline and Connor CO-OP...make it happen UBI!!!

pirate1802
06-16-2014, 08:26 PM
With the PS4 version containing sixty minutes of 'extra mission' :rolleyes:

Jexx21
06-16-2014, 08:29 PM
I enjoyed Liberation HD even with all the problems but then I also enjoyed Bloodlines, I guess I'm too easily entertained.

I think it's impossible to be too easily entertained.

Bastiaen
06-16-2014, 08:36 PM
Yes, I would, though that doesn't mean that I'm upset about not having a female co-op character in ACU. Everybody plays as Arno anyway. Would it really have been worth it for them to develop the animations just for your friends to see? I think we're making too big a deal about this.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-16-2014, 08:52 PM
I know...deep down we all want it :D

Aveline and Connor CO-OP...make it happen UBI!!!

I'm in!!


With the PS4 version containing sixty minutes of 'extra mission' :rolleyes:

Thank god they're not doing console exclusives anymore... or so Ive been told

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-16-2014, 08:54 PM
Interesting that no matter how you frame it:

Co-op should have a female skin
Next game should have a female protagonist
Would you play as a female protagonist?

The people on here still have essentially the same replies.

I would play as a female for a multitude of different reasons: diversity/equality (gasp), because it breaks the monotony of male character after male character, it would provide opportunities to deal with the sexism of a particular time period in a manner similar to how they looked at the treatment of natives or slaves in AC3 and 4 which helps the story by providing new storytelling opportunities, and because I would trust Ubi not to oversexualize her.

Hans684
06-16-2014, 08:57 PM
^ How about breaking another chain and have one MD AC, for story purposes.

Sesheenku
06-16-2014, 09:34 PM
Interesting that no matter how you frame it:

Co-op should have a female skin
Next game should have a female protagonist
Would you play as a female protagonist?

The people on here still have essentially the same replies.

I would play as a female for a multitude of different reasons: diversity/equality (gasp), because it breaks the monotony of male character after male character, it would provide opportunities to deal with the sexism of a particular time period in a manner similar to how they looked at the treatment of natives or slaves in AC3 and 4 which helps the story by providing new storytelling opportunities, and because I would trust Ubi not to oversexualize her.

Nobody is really against it, only against the bolded farce.

Kakuzu745
06-16-2014, 10:02 PM
I'm in!!

Lets spread the word!!!

Thing is, no matter how you phrase it reality is most people will not care because it is not like we are going to stop playing the game if they go with a female or like we are going to enjoy it more if there is a female.

For me it is all about having "something different"...having a female assassin is basically just a different skin...this is basically why I keep insisting with the whole Aveline/Connor CO-OP game. At least that would be somehow refreshing with a known female assassin in a more polished game and hopefully way more developed as a character, and a male assassin that a lot of people agree needs to keep being explored.

So yeah, in my opinion,, in the end is about refreshing concepts, not really a skin....

Ureh
06-16-2014, 10:12 PM
^ How about breaking another chain and have one MD AC, for story purposes.

Yeah, lots of folks want a new 3rd person MD protag. A female will work too. But beating Desmond's journey will be hard though. That's why it'll be much more rewarding if they succeed.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-16-2014, 10:14 PM
Lets spread the word!!!

Thing is, no matter how you phrase it reality is most people will not care because it is not like we are going to stop playing the game if they go with a female or like we are going to enjoy it more if there is a female.

For me it is all about having "something different"...having a female assassin is basically just a different skin...this is basically why I keep insisting with the whole Aveline/Connor CO-OP game. At least that would be somehow refreshing with a known female assassin in a more polished game and hopefully way more developed as a character, and a male assassin that a lot of people agree needs to keep being explored.

So yeah, in my opinion,, in the end is about refreshing concepts, not really a skin....

Hear hear.

adventurewomen
06-17-2014, 05:39 PM
A shade lighter than midnight characters like Adewale test well, but for some reason females test better mixed raced, Asian women and mixed Asian women test well, You can only speculate why.
"A Shade Lighter" "Mightnight"

You sound like you're from the 18th/19th century, move forward to the 21st century & stop being colorstruck.

Hans684
06-17-2014, 06:08 PM
Yeah, lots of folks want a new 3rd person MD protag. A female will work too. But beating Desmond's journey will be hard though. That's why it'll be much more rewarding if they succeed.

We need an AC in MD only becouse it would help with the story more than the the usual AC with small MD story movement. It's needed wether we like it or not, people cry and complain about the MD being in poor condition and should be taken away. Well, just give them a MD only AC to solve those problems, there is no need to take it away. It could also give us a new MD protagonist, saying how much someone wants it gone is only making thing worse, becouse of that it becomes more and more "optional" for people disliking it. And with a AC in MD the only it would be easy to beat Desmond's MD journey becouse we get to do more, move the story even more. There is several people suitable for the job. Like the Russian Assassin from Initiates, Ottso Berg, Jot Soora(Brahman) and the reasech analyst(only need to be given name etc...). There properly is more but you get the point. It would be The most rewarding AC in term of MD, it would make people happy with Desmond's sacrifice.

Sesheenku
06-17-2014, 07:52 PM
We need an AC in MD only becouse it would help with the story more than the the usual AC with small MD story movement. It's needed wether we like it or not, people cry and complain about the MD being in poor condition and should be taken away. Well, just give them a MD only AC to solve those problems, there is no need to take it away. It could also give us a new MD protagonist, saying how much someone wants it gone is only making thing worse, becouse of that it becomes more and more "optional" for people disliking it. And with a AC in MD the only it would be easy to beat Desmond's MD journey becouse we get to do more, move the story even more. There is several people suitable for the job. Like the Russian Assassin from Initiates, Ottso Berg, Jot Soora(Brahman) and the reasech analyst(only need to be given name etc...). There properly is more but you get the point. It would be The most rewarding AC in term of MD, it would make people happy with Desmond's sacrifice.

You high? I wouldn't even take a second glance at an MD only AC. They'd lose far more fan base if they catered to the few who even care about the MD as opposed to if they did the opposite.

They probably don't make it cause they realize they wouldn't make enough money that way, quite honestly I'd bet money that's why Watch Dogs was created, to make a modern AC WITHOUT pissing off the fan base by calling it AC.

pirate1802
06-17-2014, 07:55 PM
You high? I wouldn't even take a second glance at an MD only AC.

Me neither. Female protagonist or male protagonist or transsexual protagonist. Ain't that why I play these games for. There are far better modern day stealth games than a supposed MD AC (some in ubisoft's own franchise). Why would I give this game a second look?

RatonhnhakeFan
06-17-2014, 08:05 PM
Watch Dogs is the modern day AC as far as it's possible. Back in AC1 days, the plan was repeated several times for a "trilogy with AC3 being full-on modern day". But by that time they correctly realized that the #1 attraction of this franchise is platforming tour of the historic cities. Not to mention gameplay issues, just copy+pasting the same mechanics from historic portions wasn't the solution, as we saw the few times they tried it. Watch Dogs focused solely on modern day and thanks to that it succeeded (more or less depending on opinion).

Sesheenku
06-17-2014, 08:05 PM
me neither. Female protagonist or male protagonist or tranny protagonist. Ain't that why I play these games for. There are far better modern day stealth games than a supposed MD AC (some in ubosoft's own franchise). Why would I give this game a second look?

Ikr? The historical setting just makes the modern setting look dull and tired, especially when it's just a typical city.


Watch Dogs is the modern day AC as far as it's possible. Back in AC1 days, the plan was repeated several times for a "trilogy with AC3 being full-on modern day". But by that time they correctly realized that the #1 attraction of this franchise is platforming tour of the historic cities. Not to mention gameplay issues, just copy+pasting the same mechanics from historic portions wasn't the solution, as we saw the few times they tried it. Watch Dogs focused solely on modern day and thanks to that it succeeded (more or less depending on opinion).

Precisely, it works best when it's on it's own as the main focus and it doesn't piss off the majority of the fan base because it's not taking away from historical AC.

Hans684
06-17-2014, 08:29 PM
You high?

Should I be?


I wouldn't even take a second glance at an MD only AC.

You would If we actually did stuff like in AC3. As for the dull and boring places, they just need to find the best and make it good.


They'd lose far more fan base if they catered to the few who even care about the MD as opposed to if they did the opposite.

And that everyone is one of the reasons we now are playing "us", the fan base are just as much responsible. It's been butchered on all sides.


They probably don't make it cause they realize they wouldn't make enough money that way, quite honestly I'd bet money that's why Watch Dogs was created, to make a modern AC WITHOUT pissing off the fan base by calling it AC.

They didn't realize, they have always know. Special thanks to the loud fans! It's possible that W_D was created as a form of MD AC but it's just speculation without a source. -_- Can't be serious, AC has had MD since day one, it would't be a MD game called AC. It would be AC and people are pissed all the time, nothing special about it.

SixKeys
06-17-2014, 08:34 PM
me neither. Female protagonist or male protagonist or tranny protagonist. Ain't that why I play these games for. There are far better modern day stealth games than a supposed MD AC (some in ubosoft's own franchise). Why would I give this game a second look?

Just so you know, tranny is considered a slur, like n****r or fa**ot.

Sesheenku
06-17-2014, 09:26 PM
You would If we actually did stuff like in AC3. As for the dull and boring places, they just need to find the best and make it good.






Nope sorry, I've tasted the excellence of a historical setting and a game that doesn't find itself annoyingly obsessed with military guns.

A sci-fi setting can't compare, I've seen enough sci-fi type **** to be well tired of it and its cliches unless it truly innovates and AC's MD doesn't, it's very cookie cutter in it's sci-fi setting.

The historical setting is infinitely more unique and interesting. 2012 isn't ****ing interesting. You want to make interesting sci-fi? Put it far in the future AND no ****ing space ship battles or cliche ******** like that, don't make it just stupid blaster rifles, don't wanna see that cliche ****, no stereotypical aliens, nope.

There is absolutely NOTHING they could do to make me love the MD more than the Historical part. It would be impossible.

pirate1802
06-17-2014, 09:46 PM
Just so you know, tranny is considered a slur, like n****r or fa**ot.

Apologies, I think I heard something to this effect but wasn't sure, so I thought I'd just let the autocensor handle it. I'll edit it.

JustPlainQuirky
06-17-2014, 09:49 PM
tranny is considered a slur?

#themoreyouknow

cawatrooper9
06-18-2014, 12:33 AM
Honestly, I think Ubisoft kind of messed up this year. I'm not overly upset that there wasn't a female protagonist (though I wouldn't have been against that either), but it would have been so easy for them to market a female this year. They could have pandered to the so-called "majority" of male gamers with Arno(though I've heard that females make-up nearly 50% of all gamers now) while still having at least one female out of the group of four. Heck, they could have had some sort of variety in the group- ethnicity, gender, sex, anything...

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-18-2014, 01:15 AM
Nobody is really against it, only against the bolded farce.

It's not a "farce."

I noticed that a lot of people in these various threads about female protags dismiss the notion that representation in media is a powerful tool. Or how under representation, misrepresentation, etc. can be detrimental to real world issues. Women are objectified in a number of games -- prostitutes, strippers, etc. They're very rarely the playable hero when you look at the entire gaming industry but are consistently shown as various objects to use as power-ups. When women are routinely put into the category of, at worst: sexual object and at best: supporting character while rarely ever getting to shine as the central protag... it connects to real world issues of how women see themselves and how men see and think of women. Even if you, specifically, do not do this; culturally, people think of women as weaker than men, less intelligent, less able.

I saw a few people go "I don't need to see myself represented" or say that women should "know better than to let a game or media influence them." Which, conveniently shifts the blame from society and entertainment over to...who? The women themselves. It's THEIR fault they feel like crap when they don't have the body image that media consistently pounds into our brains. It's THEIR fault they were raped because, LOOK WHAT SHE'S WEARING. She was tooootally asking for it, amirite? It spreads. Our culture and society is influenced by every aspect within it. When women criticize the very obviously male-controlled society -- they're labelled as feminazis or even just feminists but dismissed because people think of "feminist" like it's a bad word. Words, images...they have power.

Others, still like to parrot the idea of "I'd like it but I wouldn't if it was pandering" as if they'd even know one way or another if they WERE pandering. First of all, if Ubisoft decided to use the reaction of the Unity demo at E3 to make the next game a female but the story was still well written... why would it matter if they did it as a result of what happened? If they made the next game a female and the story sucked or the female character was meh... would that mean it was because they pandered? No, because some thought Edward was meh compared to their supporting characters -- was that because Ubisoft was pandering to the blonde hair, blue eyed, white male demographic? Yeah, probably not.

The only reason you'd know if the game suffered was if the story or characters sucked and Ubisoft or an employee came out and stated it was because they decided to switch to a female during production and it screwed everything up somehow.

However, even pandering could be great for a story. People get too set in their ways. Great creativity and art can come from restriction or a change in perspective. When an artist is incapable of doing something so easily, it becomes a challenge but can pay off brilliantly. Heck, recent scientific discoveries came as a result of creating games based on science and opening it up free to the public. These gamers discovered things that scientists had been looking for, for quite some time... and why? Because they stopped looking at it like a scientist because they were stuck in their ways a bit. This helped them find it. Likewise, when someone is given a limited set of tools -- they can create wondrous things.

If Ubisoft decided "okay fine, let's have a female protag" -- I'm sure it could be great as it would limit them from doing the same thing they've been doing. If the game suffered as a result of this "pandering" it's not the act of pandering that caused the game to be bad but because Ubisoft would, apparently, have had no interest in it. Which would be veryyyyy odd and I'd give them more credit than that. I'd hope so.

As artists, Ubisoft would (or should) be excited at bringing a female protag because it allows them to tell new story telling possibilities and give them something new, fresh. They've been stuck in their ways pretty much. People try to say not to interfere with Ubi's artistic vision but maybe a good ol' jolt would help them go "wait, you know what? Yeah, let's have a female protagonist. We could use this time period, this place, etc. We can do this, this, and this, have this kind of protagonist with this history, etc."

Shahkulu101
06-18-2014, 01:50 AM
So because we think that parents should take responsibility and educate their children about skewed media coverage and ultimately teach them that media is out of touch with real life and the real world, and that the medias portrayal of women is not an accurate representation of women and what they should expect to emulate, you assume that perpetuates the notion that girls provoke physical attack because of their clothing?

K den.

Ferrith
06-18-2014, 02:10 AM
though I've heard that females make-up nearly 50% of all gamers now
Well, it depends on the genre of the game. The interesting part for Ubisoft would be to do a survey and get some real figures about the percentage of females who play Assassin's Creed. Earlier Ubisoft created "Liberation" and Aveline as the main heroine, and it would be helpful if we knew the actual number of sales "Liberation" really did. The number might have not been as big as some imagine.

I have said that I wouldn't mind the sex of the protagonist as long as the story is good, but there is such a big fuss over this subject that makes me feel as if someone wants to push a female character down my throat just because. I don't appreciate it at all. As I don't appreciate people who have so much time on their hands that they ask a video game company to wave the banner of feminism, instead of going out there and try to make a difference in their real life. (I'm talking about the petition on the net.)

Rugterwyper32
06-18-2014, 02:13 AM
I will add my take on what Bob said:

I do agree representation matters, and it's something that we're slowly getting to in terms of main characters. I'd say it's specially important for Ubisoft as they're pretty high up in the chain when it comes to the videogame industry, and them taking more steps like that would certainly be important seeing how they're pretty high up there. Nintendo, for being quite the conservative minded Japanese company they are, are doing a surprising job with upcoming games for their consoles (have you seen how expansive the playable female cast is in Smash Bros and Hyrule Warriors? Or how even in Xenoblade with a customizable character they went with a female character for the show?). And I think more of the big name companies, rather than being afraid of it not selling, should embrace this variety as they set the example.
In the art part, I do agree with that. I can only speak for myself here, but I aim to be a decent composer one day, and I do feel the challenge of working on something different from the usual really can bring some good results as you'll put even more effort in trying to get that something different right. Now, there's the part of me not wanting to show off anything I do because I hate 80% of it as it doesn't live up to my unrealistic perfectionist standards but that's another matter entirely. But, at least from my experience, some of the stronger stuff one can come up with as an artist is when aiming for something different from what you've tried all along. And they've shown they can manage with a great supporting cast, so I know they sure can do a great job with a main female character.
So that's my take on it.

Sesheenku
06-18-2014, 02:29 AM
It's not a "farce."

I noticed that a lot of people in these various threads about female protags dismiss the notion that representation in media is a powerful tool. Or how under representation, misrepresentation, etc. can be detrimental to real world issues. Women are objectified in a number of games -- prostitutes, strippers, etc. They're very rarely the playable hero when you look at the entire gaming industry but are consistently shown as various objects to use as power-ups. When women are routinely put into the category of, at worst: sexual object and at best: supporting character while rarely ever getting to shine as the central protag... it connects to real world issues of how women see themselves and how men see and think of women. Even if you, specifically, do not do this; culturally, people think of women as weaker than men, less intelligent, less able.

I saw a few people go "I don't need to see myself represented" or say that women should "know better than to let a game or media influence them." Which, conveniently shifts the blame from society and entertainment over to...who? The women themselves. It's THEIR fault they feel like crap when they don't have the body image that media consistently pounds into our brains. It's THEIR fault they were raped because, LOOK WHAT SHE'S WEARING. She was tooootally asking for it, amirite? It spreads. Our culture and society is influenced by every aspect within it. When women criticize the very obviously male-controlled society -- they're labelled as feminazis or even just feminists but dismissed because people think of "feminist" like it's a bad word. Words, images...they have power.

Others, still like to parrot the idea of "I'd like it but I wouldn't if it was pandering" as if they'd even know one way or another if they WERE pandering. First of all, if Ubisoft decided to use the reaction of the Unity demo at E3 to make the next game a female but the story was still well written... why would it matter if they did it as a result of what happened? If they made the next game a female and the story sucked or the female character was meh... would that mean it was because they pandered? No, because some thought Edward was meh compared to their supporting characters -- was that because Ubisoft was pandering to the blonde hair, blue eyed, white male demographic? Yeah, probably not.

The only reason you'd know if the game suffered was if the story or characters sucked and Ubisoft or an employee came out and stated it was because they decided to switch to a female during production and it screwed everything up somehow.

However, even pandering could be great for a story. People get too set in their ways. Great creativity and art can come from restriction or a change in perspective. When an artist is incapable of doing something so easily, it becomes a challenge but can pay off brilliantly. Heck, recent scientific discoveries came as a result of creating games based on science and opening it up free to the public. These gamers discovered things that scientists had been looking for, for quite some time... and why? Because they stopped looking at it like a scientist because they were stuck in their ways a bit. This helped them find it. Likewise, when someone is given a limited set of tools -- they can create wondrous things.

If Ubisoft decided "okay fine, let's have a female protag" -- I'm sure it could be great as it would limit them from doing the same thing they've been doing. If the game suffered as a result of this "pandering" it's not the act of pandering that caused the game to be bad but because Ubisoft would, apparently, have had no interest in it. Which would be veryyyyy odd and I'd give them more credit than that. I'd hope so.

As artists, Ubisoft would (or should) be excited at bringing a female protag because it allows them to tell new story telling possibilities and give them something new, fresh. They've been stuck in their ways pretty much. People try to say not to interfere with Ubi's artistic vision but maybe a good ol' jolt would help them go "wait, you know what? Yeah, let's have a female protagonist. We could use this time period, this place, etc. We can do this, this, and this, have this kind of protagonist with this history, etc."

Another long arguments saying basically the same thing.

Yes it is their faults they feel bad, I'm a short ****ing lightweight male, do you see me whining when they put a bunch of tall buff men as heroes? No I don't care. I like my body, I have enough self confidence to not breakdown every time I see someone who has a better body than me. If people being better endowed than you make you feel bad then you need to seriously grow up. Seriously.

There you go with the sexualization argument, I'm tired of hearing it cause I've played plenty of games with good female characters, please compile a full list of popular games and prove to me 100% that women are sexualized significantly more than they're made likeable and realistic protagonists. If you can't then kindly zip it cause you're essentially talking out of your ***, you see one stupid game like ride to hell retribution or god of war do sexist **** and then all of a sudden that's apparently the norm which I simply don't see.

Nobody cares about women having power -.- ffs dude get a damn grip on reality. It's this pointless *****ing about non-issues. Issues that shouldn't affect women with enough brain to know better than to care about video games so much that they start an irritating battle against them. They get criticized cause their arguments are almost always hypocritical, as I've said countless times before, women have the advantage in divorce and abuse cases, if a man gets abused then he'll get laughed out of the court room but if a woman comes with a bruise the man might as well already give her his bank account and personal belongings, they focus their arguments on a group of devolved idiots on top of that, there are people who think a lot of stupid ****, they're stupid, let natural selection do its work and ignore the ****ers.

No of course nobody wants pandering to whiny agendas of any sort.

As artists Ubisoft should be entitled to do what they want without annoying pests screaming in their ear demanding **** merely because they believe that this ridiculous overly PC crap is good for the human race. It's ****ing not btw, we've all gotten so soft and so weak mentally that we have to ***** about stupid ****. There are stupid people on this planet that are going to say stupid things, don't try to fight stupid just let it die out, do your part to make it die out but not in battles that you should know won't win you anything.

Honestly they don't need your help to create a fresh experience Unity looks just fine. Stop trying to argue all these supposed benefits, you don't really give a **** about that, you only care about evening everything out and unnecessary representation for the mentally weak and immature.

Oh btw you speak for a group as if you know they all want the same things, you want equality in everything but did you ever consider the fact that some men and some women don't want to do certain things? What if we forced women to play baseball because some idiot internet feminist group started *****ing baseball isn't diverse enough? What if we forced men to be fashion designers because somebody decided their simply wasn't enough equality?

What if in the future some stupid PC group comes along and stuffs a bunch of dangerous vicious criminals in your neighborhood simply because your neighborhood wasn't diverse enough. simply because they wanted to give these vicious criminals an "equal" chance at bettering their lives?

Your foolish battle for equality is blind, it doesn't consider all the factors and for its so called equality it generalizes men as lusting monkeys who aim to put women down at every turn.

Oh and finally your arguments hold no wait cause you speak of the stupid masses, anyone who believes its a womans fault for being raped doesn't deserve to be paid attention to, they're obviously ****ed in the head and you should be battling against stupidity instead of this pointless and unnecessary representation.

Christ... your posts treat us as if we're the writers of Encyclopedia Dramatica when we're just normal people, we're all for equality and for the sensible treatment of women but this goes too far when in every god damned forum I go to I see whining and complaining about this idiotic representation issue, it's just a mother ****ing video game... a VIDEO GAME.

What the hell is next, you'll be wanting us to make a female version of the monopoly guy because monopoly is sexist for not representing women as millionaires?

IT WILL DO YOU NO GOOD. NONE. THERE IS NOTHING TO BE WON.

The only thing you're accomplishing is showing that the feminist movement has become stagnant, focusing on stupid pointless issues and annoying normal people who are neither falsely oppressed feminists nor the idiots that say such things as women deserved to be raped.

Jesus... what do we have to do to get you to shut up, pay you reparations? I'm sorry that some of my ancestors were stupid sacks of **** and treated women like ****, I'm sorry for the vocal minority of idiots that slander women like animals (of which on the internet you can be sure at least half are trolls anyways)

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-18-2014, 02:50 AM
I will add my take on what Bob said:

I do agree representation matters, and it's something that we're slowly getting to in terms of main characters. I'd say it's specially important for Ubisoft as they're pretty high up in the chain when it comes to the videogame industry, and them taking more steps like that would certainly be important seeing how they're pretty high up there. Nintendo, for being quite the conservative minded Japanese company they are, are doing a surprising job with upcoming games for their consoles (have you seen how expansive the playable female cast is in Smash Bros and Hyrule Warriors? Or how even in Xenoblade with a customizable character they went with a female character for the show?). And I think more of the big name companies, rather than being afraid of it not selling, should embrace this variety as they set the example.
In the art part, I do agree with that. I can only speak for myself here, but I aim to be a decent composer one day, and I do feel the challenge of working on something different from the usual really can bring some good results as you'll put even more effort in trying to get that something different right. Now, there's the part of me not wanting to show off anything I do because I hate 80% of it as it doesn't live up to my unrealistic perfectionist standards but that's another matter entirely. But, at least from my experience, some of the stronger stuff one can come up with as an artist is when aiming for something different from what you've tried all along. And they've shown they can manage with a great supporting cast, so I know they sure can do a great job with a main female character.
So that's my take on it.

Exactly! In regards to art: I draw. A LOT. Have been since I was 2. I drew primarily men; Batman, Superman, male Jedi, etc. I rarely drew women and as a result, whenever I DID draw Wonder Woman or whoever -- it came out really awful whereas Batman became essentially muscle memory. But I finally sat down and decided to get better at drawing women. It was something new and something I rarely had done before. I now draw women a lot more confidently than I used to.

Or, foe a non-gender example. I used to just draw the characters without really thinking about the end result. So I'd start and draw Batman's head, move down to his shoulders, torso, then to his legs. Because of this... my drawings would vary wildly in terms of proportion: sometimes, the legs would be too short, other times, the head too small, etc. I decided to finally start sketching a rough idea of what I wanted, mapping out the pose and proportion before committing and that has helped tremendously. I'm not perfect by any means but if you compare it to work from before doing that... the difference is noticeable.

As for the spreading of positive images and doing away with age old notions; precisely. Ubisoft is one of the biggest game developers out there. They can help sow the seeds of change so to speak. From gender to race... they can create more positive and interesting roles for people typically push to the sidelines.

As someone who feels strongly about this issue (among others) -- it's important to note games that do feature women. First off, I was surprised by Hyrule Warriors. Not only is it the first time the series will allow the player to play as Zelda, but out of 4 playable characters -- 1 was male. That's different than the traditional team of heroes which consists mostly of males and then maybe a female or two. Now, that's not the entire line-up and it's entirely possible that by the end there are more guys. I'll be optimistic and hope it's about even in the final roster but still... it was nice to see. And hopefully my friend gets it so I can play as Impa who looks awesome.

I've mentioned the new Tomb Raider reboot a lot as well. That game is an interesting example because it took a character traditionally designed to be eye candy for men and made her more interesting, more realistic. She's got a realistically athletic build, gone are the ridiculous boobs/impossibly thin waist look. She's still attractive and that's fine. Heck, the new trailer has her in a big old coat because it seems that, hopefully, they're continuing with not objectifying her. That trailer, implies it at least. They didn't want you to focus on her image so much as her character which is why we see her in therapy after the awful events of the first game and they also wanted to emphasis the TOMB raiding aspect as well. That's a brilliant way of combining what the original games were about while doing away with the silly and impractical character design.

Again.. not EVERY game needs to have a female protagonist... but when the numbers are so skewed... then yeah, I think more games should create more female protagonists. Or when you have a game with multiple characters, an equal cast of genders is preferable. It should say something that we even need a thing such as the Bechdel Test is a testament to how screwed up our entertainment is. The worst part? Passing the Bedhdel Test doesn't even make the film or media NOT sexist. It just means it's at least a tiny bit better than the typical movie where girls talk about men and their lives revolve around the men in their lives. For instance... a piece of entertainment where two girls discuss shopping and LOOOOOVE to shop passes the Bechdel Test but that doesn't mean they're not stereotypes. Yes, some women like to shop. Not all do. n fact, I dated a girl who, whenever we went clothes shopping, spent only a few minutes at any particular store and would spend an equal or more time at Gamestop. On the flip side, some men like to go shopping and yet you never see that in a piece of media unless it's a portrayal of a gay person.

Bashilir
06-18-2014, 02:52 AM
Does just buying the game count?

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-18-2014, 03:21 AM
I'm sorry for the vocal minority of idiots that slander women

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I can hardly read what you type because I constantly see this
**** throughout which makes you look like a middle school kid throwing a tantrum more than any of my posts you claim are whining. I skimmed your post, saw you get flustered and repeat things (including a lot of ****'s) you've said to me and decided I didn't care enough to read in depth. THIS however, caught my eye.

"Vocal minority." You need to get a grip on reality like you so adamantly claim I do. If a female protagonist truly didn't matter to you, you would listen to my argument, agree or disagree with my assessment and move on. Because if it doesn't matter, then what I'm saying is "pointless" which would make arguing with me redundant on your part. However, you continue to argue with very weak counterarguments. You make excuse after excuse, you defend the poor representation of women, and on top of all that... you cuss throughout all your posts which makes you sound ridiculous. You're not even cussing for EMPHASIS for **** sake. you're just filling your post to the brim with it. You can't even claim it's out of exasperation of all my posts regarding this because you did the same as soon as this started getting discussed on the forums.

It makes nay possible valid points (which you have none -- they mainly consist of "feminists are dumb and argue over things that don't matter" or "i'm going to justify this til I'm blue in the face but uhhh...it totally doesn't matter to me...")

Sesheenku
06-18-2014, 03:37 AM
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I can hardly read what you type because you constant **** throughout makes you look like a middle school kid throwing a tantrum more than any of my posts you claim are whining. I skimmed your post, saw you get flustered and repeat things (including a lot of ****'s) you've said to me and decided I didn't care enough to read in depth. THIS however, caught my eye.

"Vocal minority." You need to get a grip on reality like you so adamantly claim I do. If a female protagonist truly didn't matter to you, you would listen to my argument, agree or disagree with my assessment and move on. Because if it doesn't matter, then what I'm saying is "pointless" which would make arguing with me redundant on your part. However, you continue to argue with very weak counterarguments. You make excuse after excuse, you defend the poor representation of women, and on top of all that... you cuss throughout all your posts which makes you sound ridiculous. You're not even cussing for EMPHASIS for **** sake. you're just filling your post to the brim with it. You can't even claim it's out of exasperation of all my posts regarding this because you did the same as soon as this started getting discussed on the forums.

It makes nay possible valid points (which you have none -- they mainly consist of "feminists are dumb and argue over things that don't matter" or "i'm going to justify this til I'm blue in the face but uhhh...it totally doesn't matter to me...")

Oh is that it or is that simply your concession for defeat? Don't give me an excuse to not read the post if you don't have an argument I get it.

I don't care about a female protagonist but I DESPISE whining. Especially about stupid things, your posts and arguments are the equivalent of a teenager living in an upper class neighborhood in a 3 story colonial with a loving family and telling me his life sucks and isn't fair.

It is out of exasperation, I'm tired of seeing this all the time in every bloody forum I go to, you really think you're the only one whining about this?

Amusing how you try to label me as caring about female protagonists, look at my avvie, that's Heather Mason... from Silent Hill 3 my favorite Silent Hill character, I've posted two pictures here of characters of mine in two different games, both female.

Funny you claim my arguments are bad but then you stoop so low as to try to deconstruct them by saying that I'm actually against female protagonists.

The bolded... So I see you admit defeat then? Cussing or not I took all your arguments and gave you mine, all you gave me was lol no your arguments are stupid because they have bad words in them and argue that feminists are stupid (which I never really said) and I actually think you care about this issue in the way that you don't actually want a female protagonist.

If you're going to reply in a debate actually argue my posts or admit defeat.

If you can actually give me some compelling points I'll stop cursing pretty quick and might even accept what you're saying but as of now essentially your arguments are

1 -> Women need more representation cause there's too many women with good bodies in video games and that makes women that think low of themselves and feel bad OR it would benefit society somehow as if some stupid video game will have any impact politically whatsoever, OR for diversity for diversitys sake or equality for equality's sake.

Let me tell you something about that first point, equality and diversity for the sake of it is stupid, dangerous, and does the opposite because it's in such haste to instill diversity and equality that it doesn't take the time to carefully analyze all factors.

2 -> All of your arguments claim only women suffer these things, as I said I'm 5'4 I weigh in the 100's and I'm a 21 year old male, games are STUFFED with strong, buff, tall, male leads and you don't hear me complaining just because some fictional character has a better body than me. So what? Should I breakdown and lament my existence because some people are blessed with a better body than me? God forbid Kratos have a more sculpted six pack than I! God forbid Dante be deemed more attractive than I! I'm going to go yell for more short thin men in games cause these good looking buff men are making me feel bad!

Also you talk about female stereotypes but conveniently ignore the prevalence of male stereotypes, as some perfect hero all the time and what of that? You don't care do you? No your arguments are all about the oppression of women, you're not interested in equality anymore because you only see one side of the coin.

SolidSage
06-18-2014, 03:40 AM
What a load of bollocks -_-
Want a female character? Ask for one. I've been asking for AC coop for 5 years, I finally got it.

Slandering society and acting like females have got it bad across the board is a joke. It's misguided chivalry that chooses to slander others in the name of championing female rights. It's about 3 decades late for starters. Jade Raymond already runs the studio that made the 'offensive' AC coop demo, she didn't need your help to get there Bob. There's already been a female protag, and before I get the "but side game though" I'd ask you to consider that Ubisoft probably knows a great deal more than you about demographic statistic analysis. All they have to do is a quick scan of gamer tag scores for their games. They have the info they need.
The idea that ordering Ubisoft to potentially handicap their franchise so they can check the box that identifies them as 'diverse friendly' will be a good thing for the AC franchise is nuts.

Just play Tomb Raider if it means a lot to you, or continue to ask for representation in AC. But acting like AC NOT having a female PC is setting back the female cause and well being as it pertains to society is such silly nonsensical drivel that I HAVE to comment on it. Before young minds are influenced by such banal and false, dramatic foolishness.

You want a female Assassin? Cool, does she need to be really fat, and old and a little dim, and brown skinned and a transvestite and a lesbian and blind and deaf and a host of other types that need to be represented in this AC RIGHT NOW, or Ubisoft will be perpetuating the mind set that it's okay to do bad things to all of them?

Girls in games: Good
Acting like AC is setting back the 'cause' by not having one: Full on Firestarter mode.

Can't you go and give Hasbro and Disney some shiz instead? Barbie and Tinker bell movies are never about a male main character. And I know, I sit through a ton of them.
Check your local mall and tell me females are underepresented. Where the male fancy underwear store? Make Victoria's Secret use a dude to model bra and panties hey? I mean, it's just not fair!

What I'm getting at, is Women buy what THEY want. They don't need a misguided do gooder trying to market a game about killing people, to them specifically, they already have PLENTY of choices

Not enough you say. More than enough I say, to completely undermine your argument about misrepresentation in the video game industry anyway.

I want a female PC, I do...but not like this. Not because of such ridiculous guilt trip maliciousness and slander towards a company that has already proved such accusations to be false.
My Wife has already played as a female in R6, Rayman, Child of Light, Assassin's Creed, Just Dance, Far Cry. Just Ubisoft titles there, no point starting a list with Resident Evils, Tomb Raiders, GTA, Gears of War, etc etc.

You should at least be aware of the facts your argument chooses to blatantly ignore so you can single handedly rescue the damsels from this terrible fate.of subjection to the domineering male will that tyrannically forces them to play AC as a man. Such terrible and heinous evil :/

Sesheenku
06-18-2014, 03:43 AM
What a load of bollocks -_-
Want a female character? Ask for one. I've been asking for AC coop for 5 years, I finally got it.

Slandering society and acting like females have got it bad across the board is a joke. It's misguided chivalry that chooses to slander others in the name of championing female rights. It's about 3 decades late for starters. Jade Raymond already runs the studio that made the 'offensive' AC coop demo, she didn't need your help to get there Bob. There's already been a female protag, and before I get the "but side game though" I'd ask you to consider that Ubisoft probably knows a great deal more than you about demographic statistic analysis. All they have to do is a quick scan of gamer tag scores for their games. They have the info they need.
The idea that ordering Ubisoft to potentially handicap their franchise so they can check the box that identifies them as 'diverse friendly' will be a good thing for the AC franchise is nuts.

Just play Tomb Raider if it means a lot to you, or continue to ask for representation in AC. But acting like AC NOT having a female PC is setting back the female cause and well being as it pertains to society is such silly nonsensical drivel that I HAVE to comment on it. Before young minds are influenced by such banal and false, dramatic foolishness.

You want a female Assassin? Cool, does she need to be really fat, and old and a little dim, and brown skinned and a transvestite and a lesbian and blind and deaf and a host of other types that need to be represented in this AC RIGHT NOW, or Ubisoft will be perpetuating the mind set that it's okay to do bad things to all of them?

Girls in games: Good
Acting like AC is setting back the 'cause' by not having one: Full on Firestarter mode.

Can't you go and give Hasbro and Disney some shiz instead? Barbie and Tinker bell movies are never about a male main character. And I know, I sit through a ton of them.
Check your local mall and tell me females are underepresented. Where the male fancy underwear store? Make Victoria's Secret use a dude to model bra and panties hey? I mean, it's just not fair!

What I'm getting at, is Women buy what THEY want. They don't need a misguided do gooder trying to market a game about killing people, to them specifically, they already have PLENTY of choices

Not enough you say. More than enough I say, to completely undermine your argument about misrepresentation in the video game industry anyway.

I want a female PC, I do...but not like this. Not because of such ridiculous guilt trip maliciousness and slander towards a company that has already proved such accusations to be false.
My Wife has already played as a female in R6, Rayman, Child of Light, Assassin's Creed, Just Dance, Far Cry. Just Ubisoft titles there, no point starting a list with Resident Evils, Tomb Raiders, GTA, Gears of War, etc etc.

You should at least be aware of the facts your argument chooses to blatantly ignore so you can single handedly rescue the damsels from this terrible fate.of subjection to the domineering male will that tyrannically forces them to play AC as a man. Such terrible and heinous evil :/

^This.. so much this.

If you won't listen to me Bob listen to this person.

This is why I get mad every time I see one of your posts.

pirate1802
06-18-2014, 03:50 AM
Others, still like to parrot the idea of "I'd like it but I wouldn't if it was pandering" as if they'd even know one way or another if they WERE pandering.

Actually yes, if one sees it with an unbiased eye. In Mass Effect 3 a previously-straight character suddenly tuned bisexual. Also now you had a new person on you crew whose husband died recently, conveniently, but who is very open to have a relationship with you after you say a few sweet words. Jep, totally not obvious :rolleyes:
Yes I know both of these are possible actually, and yet you can't but feel they are a little too.. convenient? That in a nutshell, is how pandering feels.

Now note that this could be avoided if they gave better dialogs to Cortez and had chose another character to fill up Kaidan's place. Pandering doesn't feel like pandering if it is done well. And people would hardly care. But most often when people look to pander they are looking to score more SJ brownie points than making the content feel seamless, natural to the rest of the game, (because that is the freaking point of pandering) giving you crap examples like the one stated. Which leads me to this:


First of all, if Ubisoft decided to use the reaction of the Unity demo at E3 to make the next game a female but the story was still well written... why would it matter if they did it as a result of what happened?

Yes changing the gender in an already established story is child's play and might not hamper the development process at all!. And so what if the game suffers or the the pandering seems obvious, at least now the wrongs have been righted right? Bob, as a fellow artist I'm surprised you can't see the obvious. Which would result in a better drawing? You creating something with your own creative mind or something you'd been forced to do. But I guess it doesn't matter in the end, as long as people get what they want.

Jexx21
06-18-2014, 03:58 AM
Actually yes, if one sees it with an unbiased eye. In Mass Effect 3 a previously-straight character suddenly tuned bisexual. Also now you had a new person on you crew whose husband died recently, conveniently, but who is very open to have a relationship with you after you say a few sweet words. Jep, totally not obvious :rolleyes:
Yes I know both of these are possible actually, and yet you can't but feel they are a little too.. convenient? That in a nutshell, is how pandering feels.

Now note that this could be avoided if they gave better dialogs to Cortez and had chose another character to fill up Kaidan's place. Pandering doesn't feel like pandering if it is done well. And people would hardly care. But most often when people look to pander they are looking to score ore SJ brownie points than making the content feel seamless, natural to the rest of the game, giving you crap examples like the one stated. Which leads me to this:



Yes changing the gender in an already established story is child's play and might not hamper the development process at all!. Bob, as a fellow artist I'm surprised you can't see the obvious. Which would result in a better drawing? You creating something with your own creative mind or something you'd been forced to do. But I guess it doesn't matter in the end, as long as people get what they want.

When they turned Kaiden bi I was hoping that meant Ashley was bi as well.

No such luck :(

pirate1802
06-18-2014, 04:02 AM
When they turned Kaiden bi I was hoping that meant Ashley was bi as well.

No such luck :(

:( let's create a petition?

Shahkulu101
06-18-2014, 04:07 AM
:( let's create a petition?

Hahahaha

Ferrith
06-18-2014, 04:09 AM
What a load of bollocks -_-
Want a female character? Ask for one. I've been asking for AC coop for 5 years, I finally got it.

Slandering society and acting like females have got it bad across the board is a joke. It's misguided chivalry that chooses to slander others in the name of championing female rights. It's about 3 decades late for starters. Jade Raymond already runs the studio that made the 'offensive' AC coop demo, she didn't need your help to get there Bob. There's already been a female protag, and before I get the "but side game though" I'd ask you to consider that Ubisoft probably knows a great deal more than you about demographic statistic analysis. All they have to do is a quick scan of gamer tag scores for their games. They have the info they need.
The idea that ordering Ubisoft to potentially handicap their franchise so they can check the box that identifies them as 'diverse friendly' will be a good thing for the AC franchise is nuts.

Just play Tomb Raider if it means a lot to you, or continue to ask for representation in AC. But acting like AC NOT having a female PC is setting back the female cause and well being as it pertains to society is such silly nonsensical drivel that I HAVE to comment on it. Before young minds are influenced by such banal and false, dramatic foolishness.

You want a female Assassin? Cool, does she need to be really fat, and old and a little dim, and brown skinned and a transvestite and a lesbian and blind and deaf and a host of other types that need to be represented in this AC RIGHT NOW, or Ubisoft will be perpetuating the mind set that it's okay to do bad things to all of them?

Girls in games: Good
Acting like AC is setting back the 'cause' by not having one: Full on Firestarter mode.

Can't you go and give Hasbro and Disney some shiz instead? Barbie and Tinker bell movies are never about a male main character. And I know, I sit through a ton of them.
Check your local mall and tell me females are underepresented. Where the male fancy underwear store? Make Victoria's Secret use a dude to model bra and panties hey? I mean, it's just not fair!

What I'm getting at, is Women buy what THEY want. They don't need a misguided do gooder trying to market a game about killing people, to them specifically, they already have PLENTY of choices

Not enough you say. More than enough I say, to completely undermine your argument about misrepresentation in the video game industry anyway.

I want a female PC, I do...but not like this. Not because of such ridiculous guilt trip maliciousness and slander towards a company that has already proved such accusations to be false.
My Wife has already played as a female in R6, Rayman, Child of Light, Assassin's Creed, Just Dance, Far Cry. Just Ubisoft titles there, no point starting a list with Resident Evils, Tomb Raiders, GTA, Gears of War, etc etc.

You should at least be aware of the facts your argument chooses to blatantly ignore so you can single handedly rescue the damsels from this terrible fate.of subjection to the domineering male will that tyrannically forces them to play AC as a man. Such terrible and heinous evil :/

This is such a wonderful post that I had to quote it again - and highlight what I personally consider important. Thank you!

This madness has to stop.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-18-2014, 04:50 AM
I don't care about a female protagonist but I DESPISE whining. Especially about stupid things, your posts and arguments are the equivalent of a teenager living in an upper class neighborhood in a 3 story colonial with a loving family and telling me his life sucks and isn't fair.

....that could apply to any facet of criticism pinned to a game. Anyone who criticizes about the location, about the controls, about combat, the stealth, etc. Those are ALL the equivalent to what you said because people who don't have video games or access to them...probably have more immediate concerns. That doesn't mean this is unimportant or otherwise not necessary to bring up.


It is out of exasperation, I'm tired of seeing this all the time in every bloody forum I go to, you really think you're the only one whining about this?

That should maybe...just maybe show how it might be a tad more important than you're making it out to be. Either I'm the only one and you got upset over no reason... or it happens often enough to annoy you. Either way...there's no cause for acting ridiculous.


Amusing how you try to label me as caring about female protagonists, look at my avvie, that's Heather Mason... from Silent Hill 3 my favorite Silent Hill character, I've posted two pictures here of characters of mine in two different games, both female.

And? A lot of men would get into a fight to defend their mom if someone insulted her -- doesn't necessarily make them not ignorant of what women go through and they very well could be sexists.

I'm not saying you're sexist but rather, ignorant of the actual issues women face. Heck, I'm not 100% knowledgeable because I don't LIVE it. I don't have the same perspective as them. Again...

"I have no perspective." - Every Man Ever


Funny you claim my arguments are bad but then you stoop so low as to try to deconstruct them by saying that I'm actually against female protagonists.

No, you're not against female protags. You very well could be for them as it seems you are. Problem is... you believe issues are non-issues when in reality, they're deeply ingrained parts of our society and culture. You want to make me the bad guy when all I'm doing is trying to show how women are often poorly represented, if at all really, in media and games specifically. I didn't post my thread to attack anyone and frankly, it's a little ridiculous how you and so many others are getting on my case. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with diversifying and positively portraying women more often.


The bolded... So I see you admit defeat then? Cussing or not I took all your arguments and gave you mine, all you gave me was lol no your arguments are stupid because they have bad words in them and argue that feminists are stupid (which I never really said) and I actually think you care about this issue in the way that you don't actually want a female protagonist.

I've quoted you numerous times and replied often, like I am doing so now. I am replying because you didn't fill your post with so many cusses so I could take it a bit more seriously now. Thank you for doing that.

I'm also replying because I'm confused as to what the bolded part means. Care to elaborate?


If you're going to reply in a debate actually argue my posts or admit defeat.

Oh stop. You sound like a silly villain. Do not give me an ultimatum. That actually does more to ruin your argument than anything.


If you can actually give me some compelling points I'll stop cursing pretty quick and might even accept what you're saying but as of now essentially your arguments are

But you DID stop. So now we can actually have a debate if you'd like.


1 -> Women need more representation cause there's too many women with good bodies in video games and that makes women that think low of themselves and feel bad OR it would benefit society somehow as if some stupid video game will have any impact politically whatsoever, OR for diversity for diversitys sake or equality for equality's sake.

It would absolutely impact out society. Not one game alone. It's not as though Ubisoft would release AC with a female and suddenly it made a difference. It needs to be a trend. Once that takes a hold, it becomes more normal to see females in the hero roles. When it becomes ordinary, then it no longer matters whether or not a game picks a male protagonist because an equal (or about equal) amount of games would more than likely have games with females regardless. You don't have to worry about it because your gender at least is always represented. If someone is a white male, they have even less of a concern because most heroes are white and male.

I praised Marvel for creating the new Ms. Marvel and making it a female Muslim. This allows them to do very interesting stuff. For one, she's a teenager which means it's like a classic Marvel story like Spider-Man. She's struggling with her powers and in fact, there's a scene where she transforms into the classic Ms Marvel (white, blonde, revealing outfit) because she thinks that's what she wants. She soon comes to realize that it's not really that great. The writers knew that media is powerful and it shaped cultural perception. It's not as simple as saying "well girls should know better" or "their parents should teach them better" like some have suggested. Because their parents grew up with those longheld notions. In fact, it wasn't until the 60's that it was deemed appropriate for women to wear pants as everyday clothing. Up until then, our society still believed women should wear dresses, skirts, etc. That was a tradition that dates back centuries and centuries.

Obviously, now it's common for women to wear pants but even still, long held ideas about what women should and shouldn't do remain. Not even from sexists but just inherent to our language. We still use "like a girl" as an insult. You throw like a girl, you hit like a girl -- even when we know that there are plenty of women who can throw very well and fight very well. Even just little things like that which seem harmless enough... a lot of girls will say that to guys despite the connotation or meaning it implies. That women are weaker and so a guy to act like a woman is an insult. Most aren't saying "you throw like a girl" or whatever the case may be because they're sexist. It's just a part of out culture.

Games should typically feature women with good bodies. Same goes for men. A good body does not = revealing clothes nor does it = impossible body. Lara Croft's original design was not natural. Her waist was impossibly thin (at least if she is supposed to be healthy and athletic -- maybe if she was anorexic and... really, again, that's not an image we should glorify either). Her new design on the other hand is realistic. She has a body that's obviously fit but they made it realistic. That is a body that an athletic woman can realistically have. They also put her in an outfit that is much more practical for the types of activities she'd be involved with. Rather than a crop tank top, they gave her a normal tank top. Instead of booty shorts, they put her in pants which makes more sense for crawling around, rolling, climbing, etc. in.

As for diversity for diversity's sake... I've already shown how, even if this E3 situation caused them to make a protagonist a female, it would allow them to tell new storytelling opportunities as well as show new perspectives from what we've currently seen in AC.


2 -> All of your arguments claim only women suffer these things, as I said I'm 5'4 I weigh in the 100's and I'm a 21 year old male, games are STUFFED with strong, buff, tall, male leads and you don't hear me complaining just because some fictional character has a better body than me. So what? Should I breakdown and lament my existence because some people are blessed with a better body than me?

No but here's the thing...in media of ALL kinda...it's a lot more common to see males who don't have nice bodies as protagonists. It's a lot more acceptable to have a slightly chubby male lead in a TV show than it is to have a slightly chubby female lead. Typically, if there's a guy or girl, more pressure is placed on the girl than the guy. If it's a show, there's inevitably an episode where the female has to use her "assets" to charm her way whereas the male doesn't need to be. Castle did this by having the female lead dress sexy to get into a place while Nathan Fillion, as amazing as he is, is not too fit and doesn't have nearly the same pressure placed on him. Or what about Big Bang Theory? Terrible show but think about it. It's so cliche... the protagonists are nerdy guys and the girl is a "HOT CHICK." The nerd gets to woo the attractive girl. Whenever there's a nerdy character, it's absolutely acceptable for a not-so-traditionally attractive male to play the nerd (as well *** sometimes get the traditionally-attractive girl) while a female nerd is almost always still a very attractive girl.

That's not to say there aren't really attractive nerdy girls. I'm friends with some but there's a difference in the portrayal. The point is that typically, women who are supposed to be nerds are cast as really sexy girls and then given glasses. Usually. Arrow has a good example of this with Felicity. She's pretty, she wears glasses, but she's also an awkward nerd. Surprise, surprise -- there's an episode where she has to dress is a fairly revealing dress (not too revealing thankfully) and get into a place. While not shown to be a nerd or anything, female characters are OFTEN objectified. For instance, Smallville. Lois, Lana... in MANY episodes dedicated to them... they're put into revealing outfits. Lois pretends to be a stripper in one episode, many of the dumb episodes involving witches or magic or whatever where Lana and/or Lois get possessed involves scenes, outfits, or both that place the women in very sexual situations. While men are occasionally showed off (Clark is stripped of his shirt in the first episode for instance), he's given many more episodes where he's not. Also, it often occurs as a result of something bad. For instance, Clark was stripped of his shirt by bullies and hung like scarecrow. It wasn't his choice. In another episode, he has a mark burned into his chest and he tears his shirt off. However the end result is that it's almost always shown in a different manner.

For instance... if the new Tomb Raider had a scene where Lara took her shirt off to examine a wound she receives (a large gash mark on her ribs or something) -- I would be fine with that. While it would be an opportunity to see her in her bra, it also has a decent reason. That's a bit different than sticking her in this dress:

http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/morepicturess/4large.jpg

Because you know... that's practical.


Also you talk about female stereotypes but conveniently ignore the prevalence of male stereotypes, as some perfect hero all the time and what of that? You don't care do you? No your arguments are all about the oppression of women, you're not interested in equality anymore because you only see one side of the coin.

There you go. Again, shifting the focus. The perfect hero IS bad. It's always a white, male hero. I will stop making assumption if you will. Because that's not what we're discussing. That perfect hero is a result of poor storytelling and are essentially Gary Stu's. That's bad but that's not what I'm arguing about. You might as well go to a group that promotes equality for black people and be like "uh what about mexicans huh!? what about THEM? You're not interested in equality, you only see one side!" Which is ridiculous. I want everyone to be equal. Gays, women, transsexuals, blacks, hispanics, asians, whites, men, natives, and more. I'm focusing on women at the moment. That doesn't mean I don't care about any of the others. I don't want Ubisoft to just have a white female protagonist for example. A chinese female assassin for example would be way more preferable because then it, to be blunt, kills two birds with one stone. They feature chinese people as well as women rather than first making a white female and then being like "okay now we'll make a chinese assassin."

After a female Chinese assassin...why not a female ancient Egyptian? Or a bisexual female hispanic assassin in a Central or South American nation? Or...

I love Aveline because she's both black and a woman. I like her for similar reasons as I like Connor -- they're not just the staple. They're not just the default white, male hero.

P.S. I'm a 5'7ish white guy, weigh in the 100s, and I'm 20. It's one thing to have buff men as the heroes who don't reflect my exact body image...Nathan Drake for instance has a realistically, athletic body. This helps justify the gameplay and adventures. Now imagine if he was shirtless most of the game and in short shorts. Take fighting games...while the men are buff, this makes sense since it's a combat-focused game. But...they're also often fully clothed and sometimes get to wear sweet looking armor. The women on the other hand are often clothed in next to nothing and never get to wear armor despite it being combat-focused. The men are given outfits designed to protect them while women are given outfits designed to emphasize their sexuality.

ProjectXanatos
06-18-2014, 04:58 AM
I wouldn't mind a female protagonist at all; the only reason why I haven't played Liberation is because I have to spend my video game money wisely, and at the time it was either Connor for the PS3 or Aveline for the PSP that I didn't have. I went with Connor and I still haven't had the fortunate to play Liberation yet.

However, I don't understand the big deal with not having female protagonist in Unity - or any of the past major AC games, in fact. Perhaps the modern-day main character will be female, or maybe we might have a female protagonist for Comet. It'll happen; just not RIGHT NOW.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-18-2014, 05:08 AM
Actually yes, if one sees it with an unbiased eye. In Mass Effect 3 a previously-straight character suddenly tuned bisexual. Also now you had a new person on you crew whose husband died recently, conveniently, but who is very open to have a relationship with you after you say a few sweet words. Jep, totally not obvious :rolleyes:
Yes I know both of these are possible actually, and yet you can't but feel they are a little too.. convenient? That in a nutshell, is how pandering feels.

Ah but isn't that different? That's changing established characters. Mass Effect is a series with recurring characters whereas AC more or less changes it up per game barring the few direct sequels. For instance, if I recall correctly -- there was never any mention of Da Vinci being gay in AC2 but in ACB, they pretty heavily referenced it, at least in the DLC for him. That didn't feel like pandering despite it being an established character. I'm not asking for them to change any established characters by any means. If they had suddenly made Ezio bicurious in Brotherhood... it would have felt a little off unless they gave natural explanation.


Yes changing the gender in an already established story is child's play and might not hamper the development process at all!. And so what if the game suffers or the the pandering seems obvious, at least now the wrongs have been righted right? Bob, as a fellow artist I'm surprised you can't see the obvious. Which would result in a better drawing? You creating something with your own creative mind or something you'd been forced to do. But I guess it doesn't matter in the end, as long as people get what they want.

When did I say they need to CHANGE the gender. I'm saying if Ubisoft begins work on a female-led AC game as a result of the E3 co-op issues, they would most likely give it their all when it comes to story. Besides, I don't even want pandering. I want Ubisoft to legitimately want to make a female protagonist but if they needed a jolt, maybe the reaction to the E3 demo might be a catalyst for them to develop a really cool female Assassin.

And I've already mentioned this... doing something new, being forced into a corner can help you be creative. For instance, a limited set of tools can allow an artist to create some wonderful stuff. Indie games don't have nearly the range of tools and money at their disposal and yet many gamers swear by indie titles and indie titles provide fresh and interesting takes on games.

Take Journey for example...the story didn't matter whether it was a guy or girl. It could be either. Too many people are hung up on "oh they'd have to change EVERYTHING if they switched genders!" When in reality... no they wouldn't. Depending on how deep into development they are. For instance.. they could easily change the protagonist from male to female during a rewrite of the script. If the script was finalized, dialogue 60% to completely done, etc.Then yes, that wouldn't be simple. They'd have to have every character who ever refers to the hero as a "he" and switch it to "she", they'd have to completely re-do all the animations, etc. That's why I can see why it's implausible for them to add in female animations.

On the flip side, let's for the sake of argument say that the game after the next isn't too far along and Ubisoft decided to rewrite the script to make it a woman... it shouldn't have to change much aside from the "he" to "she" and things like that. While a female Assassin would be great for them to explore themes of sexism and stuff, it's not 100% essential. A female character could have virtually the same story as a male without feeling out of place or shoehorned.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-18-2014, 05:14 AM
I wouldn't mind a female protagonist at all; the only reason why I haven't played Liberation is because I have to spend my video game money wisely, and at the time it was either Connor for the PS3 or Aveline for the PSP that I didn't have. I went with Connor and I still haven't had the fortunate to play Liberation yet.

However, I don't understand the big deal with not having female protagonist in Unity - or any of the past major AC games, in fact. Perhaps the modern-day main character will be female, or maybe we might have a female protagonist for Comet. It'll happen; just not RIGHT NOW.

At least for me... I don't have an issue with any of the other characters being male. I've lovingly played the series from the first game to AC3. I've had various small issues with gameplay like the armor in the Ezio trilogy and AC3 was a major letdown in terms of Desmond's gameplay/story and the gameplay with Connor was meh because of really rigid mission structure as well as meh cities that just didn't appeal to me. For the most part, AC has been one of my top series. The only game I haven't played yet is AC4 and Liberation because of it being a Vita exclusive. When they finally released it for consoles, I wanted to get it but just haven't had the money. Now that I have the money, I;ll probably get it and Tomb Raider (PS4).

I'm also going to play the crap outta Unity because it looks amazing. I may even pick up the next AC even if it's not a female protag if I'm persuaded that it will be different enough from past installments when it comes to the character and stuff. Just depends.

ProjectXanatos
06-18-2014, 05:23 AM
At least for me... I don't have an issue with any of the other characters being male. I've lovingly played the series from the first game to AC3. I've had various small issues with gameplay like the armor in the Ezio trilogy and AC3 was a major letdown in terms of Desmond's gameplay/story and the gameplay with Connor was meh because of really rigid mission structure as well as meh cities that just didn't appeal to me. For the most part, AC has been one of my top series. The only game I haven't played yet is AC4 and Liberation because of it being a Vita exclusive. When they finally released it for consoles, I wanted to get it but just haven't had the money. Now that I have the money, I;ll probably get it and Tomb Raider (PS4).

I'm also going to play the crap outta Unity because it looks amazing. I may even pick up the next AC even if it's not a female protag if I'm persuaded that it will be different enough from past installments when it comes to the character and stuff. Just depends.

-sighs- There's always one clothing problem I have with Ezio in his games. ALWAYS one problem.

Really?! You haven't played Black Flag? That game is amazing, in my opinion, both in setting and hero. I know many people say it wasn't really an ASSASSIN'S Creed game, but I don't think it was supposed to be. I loved how long it took Edward to man up and join the Assassins. I teared up at the ending.

HeedfulMass4856
06-18-2014, 05:35 AM
There's literally no legit reason to not buy/play an AC game featuring a female protagonist.

Sesheenku
06-18-2014, 05:47 AM
....that could apply to any facet of criticism pinned to a game. Anyone who criticizes about the location, about the controls, about combat, the stealth, etc. Those are ALL the equivalent to what you said because people who don't have video games or access to them...probably have more immediate concerns. That doesn't mean this is unimportant or otherwise not necessary to bring up.

I disagree, they serve a purpose to increase the quality of a game the protagonist on the other hand is not affected quality by wise by gender or race, I don't like change when it's just to change or merely for diversity, merely to appease.


That should maybe...just maybe show how it might be a tad more important than you're making it out to be. Either I'm the only one and you got upset over no reason... or it happens often enough to annoy you. Either way...there's no cause for acting ridiculous.

There's a fat acceptance group out there not merely asking for kindness but asking us to give them the supposed privileges us thin people have.

Such as this.



…the joy of being carried over the threshold by your new spouse.
…is being able to lead an unhealthy lifestyle and never be criticized about it.
…is having someone express romantic/sexual interest in you and not having to wonder if it is genuine or part of some demeaning ploy.
…is not being denied your lifelong dream of serving in your nation’s armed service, rejected only on the grounds of weight issues.
…is not having your mother insist you to go to the doctor to have blood tests done to check for diabetes and thyroid problems when all you have is a stress-induced cold. “


They too believe their work is important but it's quite mad once you get into their arguments, I can understand fighting to not be insulted or discriminated but this list... this list... Where is the personal responsibility?





And? A lot of men would get into a fight to defend their mom if someone insulted her -- doesn't necessarily make them not ignorant of what women go through and they very well could be sexists.

I'm not saying you're sexist but rather, ignorant of the actual issues women face. Heck, I'm not 100% knowledgeable because I don't LIVE it. I don't have the same perspective as them. Again...

"I have no perspective." - Every Man Ever

I may not be 100% aware but I find complaining about representation in a form of entertainment that is still largely a joke in the world outside of gamers to be a waste of time. It just doesn't make sense and I really hate the victimized and oppressed attitude, especially from American women, come off it, in America both genders have disadvantages and advantages. It's still unequal but neither is without an advantage, most of these inequalities being much more worthy of concern than video games.



No, you're not against female protags. You very well could be for them as it seems you are. Problem is... you believe issues are non-issues when in reality, they're deeply ingrained parts of our society and culture. You want to make me the bad guy when all I'm doing is trying to show how women are often poorly represented, if at all really, in media and games specifically. I didn't post my thread to attack anyone and frankly, it's a little ridiculous how you and so many others are getting on my case. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with diversifying and positively portraying women more often.

As I said it just seems like diversity for diversitys sake or equality for the same, since you said you didn't read my first post I said that such a notion is highly dangerous. Extremely in fact.

What if one day for example one of these groups simply for the sake of equality and diversity moved a bunch of vicious and dangerous criminals into your neighborhood so that they could have a shot at "equal" opportunity?

What if we forced women to play baseball even if they didn't want to just for equality?

Men and women are not the same, your arguments seem to ignore that simple fact, not everything can always be equal, baseball can't be an equal sport if the majority of women aren't interested in it, criminals can't move into nice upscale neighborhoods because they're dangerous and would cause danger to previously safe areas.




I've quoted you numerous times and replied often, like I am doing so now. I am replying because you didn't fill your post with so many cusses so I could take it a bit more seriously now. Thank you for doing that.

I'm also replying because I'm confused as to what the bolded part means. Care to elaborate?

Those points were to describe the thoughts you seemed to be having, you seem to have accused me of secretly being against female protagonists.





Oh stop. You sound like a silly villain. Do not give me an ultimatum. That actually does more to ruin your argument than anything.

It's not an ultimatum just there to be there, to ignore arguments because of someones language is silly imo.



It would absolutely impact out society. Not one game alone. It's not as though Ubisoft would release AC with a female and suddenly it made a difference. It needs to be a trend. Once that takes a hold, it becomes more normal to see females in the hero roles. When it becomes ordinary, then it no longer matters whether or not a game picks a male protagonist because an equal (or about equal) amount of games would more than likely have games with females regardless. You don't have to worry about it because your gender at least is always represented. If someone is a white male, they have even less of a concern because most heroes are white and male.

The thing is it already shouldn't matter and actually doesn't to most people, a white male protagonist doesn't automatically make a game or character boring, just becuase they're the same color and gender as another doesn't mean they're the same character.

As I said this diversity and equality for it's own sake just doesn't make sense, if the train starts going then when will it stop? It could have dire consequences if all this PC stuff starts shoving diversity and equality into everything. That doesn't mean we should have the opposite of course and have it in nothing at all but we should really sit down and ask ourselves if this is truly important. A video game is just a video game, an art form which has yet to be respected by the large majority of the population.



I praised Marvel for creating the new Ms. Marvel and making it a female Muslim. This allows them to do very interesting stuff. For one, she's a teenager which means it's like a classic Marvel story like Spider-Man. She's struggling with her powers and in fact, there's a scene where she transforms into the classic Ms Marvel (white, blonde, revealing outfit) because she thinks that's what she wants. She soon comes to realize that it's not really that great. The writers knew that media is powerful and it shaped cultural perception. It's not as simple as saying "well girls should know better" or "their parents should teach them better" like some have suggested. Because their parents grew up with those longheld notions. In fact, it wasn't until the 60's that it was deemed appropriate for women to wear pants as everyday clothing. Up until then, our society still believed women should wear dresses, skirts, etc. That was a tradition that dates back centuries and centuries.

My parents grew up with a lot of old fashioned notions as well, that doesn't mean they affect me and they really don't. My parents are Christians who still believe being gay is a choice, I don't believe it though, they're my parents yes but that doesn't mean that I have to be precisely like them, that doesn't mean that I have to take their ideas and make them mine.. no I have my own brain I can think for myself.



Obviously, now it's common for women to wear pants but even still, long held ideas about what women should and shouldn't do remain. Not even from sexists but just inherent to our language. We still use "like a girl" as an insult. You throw like a girl, you hit like a girl -- even when we know that there are plenty of women who can throw very well and fight very well. Even just little things like that which seem harmless enough... a lot of girls will say that to guys despite the connotation or meaning it implies. That women are weaker and so a guy to act like a woman is an insult. Most aren't saying "you throw like a girl" or whatever the case may be because they're sexist. It's just a part of out culture.

The thing is that men do typically outperform women in physical strength, nothing is absolute but let's not try to pretend everything is equal here. Women have better immune systems for example nothing to get riled up about it is what it is.

I'm not excusing saying you throw like a girl either but yeah, men and women are not biologically equal.



Games should typically feature women with good bodies. Same goes for men. A good body does not = revealing clothes nor does it = impossible body. Lara Croft's original design was not natural. Her waist was impossibly thin (at least if she is supposed to be healthy and athletic -- maybe if she was anorexic and... really, again, that's not an image we should glorify either). Her new design on the other hand is realistic. She has a body that's obviously fit but they made it realistic. That is a body that an athletic woman can realistically have. They also put her in an outfit that is much more practical for the types of activities she'd be involved with. Rather than a crop tank top, they gave her a normal tank top. Instead of booty shorts, they put her in pants which makes more sense for crawling around, rolling, climbing, etc. in.

Twilight is degrading to men, it's basically a womans sexual fantasies written up in a book BUT should we take it away because a woman might enjoy it in a sexual manner? Sexuality is a thing, I don't agree with sexuality just to have it BUT on the other hand we shouldn't call all of it degrading or oppressive. Men are physical creatures, we like to see and hear, Women are more into the mental aspects, they want to imagine scenarios.

I'm not excusing all sexual stuff in games but I just wanted to say that something sexual shouldn't automatically be labeled bad and demanded to be removed, if a man can't see female bodies then for the sake of equality women can no longer read true blood books. It's only fair since those are two things that the genders enjoy in a sexual manner.





As for diversity for diversity's sake... I've already shown how, even if this E3 situation caused them to make a protagonist a female, it would allow them to tell new storytelling opportunities as well as show new perspectives from what we've currently seen in AC.

That would be a great reason to do it but not for pressure to diversify or for equality.





No but here's the thing...in media of ALL kinda...it's a lot more common to see males who don't have nice bodies as protagonists. It's a lot more acceptable to have a slightly chubby male lead in a TV show than it is to have a slightly chubby female lead. Typically, if there's a guy or girl, more pressure is placed on the girl than the guy. If it's a show, there's inevitably an episode where the female has to use her "assets" to charm her way whereas the male doesn't need to be. Castle did this by having the female lead dress sexy to get into a place while Nathan Fillion, as amazing as he is, is not too fit and doesn't have nearly the same pressure placed on him. Or what about Big Bang Theory? Terrible show but think about it. It's so cliche... the protagonists are nerdy guys and the girl is a "HOT CHICK." The nerd gets to woo the attractive girl. Whenever there's a nerdy character, it's absolutely acceptable for a not-so-traditionally attractive male to play the nerd (as well *** sometimes get the traditionally-attractive girl) while a female nerd is almost always still a very attractive girl.

I can give you this one, this is most definitely cultural, ask most men who they think has it harder to get a partner and men will say that men have it harder, so naturally in media they'll portray that situation more. I won't say more as I simply don't have the facts to confirm or deny who actually has it worse.



That's not to say there aren't really attractive nerdy girls. I'm friends with some but there's a difference in the portrayal. The point is that typically, women who are supposed to be nerds are cast as really sexy girls and then given glasses. Usually. Arrow has a good example of this with Felicity. She's pretty, she wears glasses, but she's also an awkward nerd. Surprise, surprise -- there's an episode where she has to dress is a fairly revealing dress (not too revealing thankfully) and get into a place. While not shown to be a nerd or anything, female characters are OFTEN objectified. For instance, Smallville. Lois, Lana... in MANY episodes dedicated to them... they're put into revealing outfits. Lois pretends to be a stripper in one episode, many of the dumb episodes involving witches or magic or whatever where Lana and/or Lois get possessed involves scenes, outfits, or both that place the women in very sexual situations. While men are occasionally showed off (Clark is stripped of his shirt in the first episode for instance), he's given many more episodes where he's not. Also, it often occurs as a result of something bad. For instance, Clark was stripped of his shirt by bullies and hung like scarecrow. It wasn't his choice. In another episode, he has a mark burned into his chest and he tears his shirt off. However the end result is that it's almost always shown in a different manner.

Sexuality for the sake of it is annoying to me most of the time so I can agree with this.



For instance... if the new Tomb Raider had a scene where Lara took her shirt off to examine a wound she receives (a large gash mark on her ribs or something) -- I would be fine with that. While it would be an opportunity to see her in her bra, it also has a decent reason. That's a bit different than sticking her in this dress:

http://laracroftcosplay.com/images/morepicturess/4large.jpg

Because you know... that's practical.

Personally I don't mind showing a bit of skin, I never played those so I don't know HOW much skin it's showing. As I said before women have sexual books but men need to see or hear it so we have stuff like that. If it's optional I honestly don't find it a big deal. In the case of TR of course it's shoved in your face.



There you go. Again, shifting the focus. The perfect hero IS bad. It's always a white, male hero. I will stop making assumption if you will. Because that's not what we're discussing. That perfect hero is a result of poor storytelling and are essentially Gary Stu's. That's bad but that's not what I'm arguing about. You might as well go to a group that promotes equality for black people and be like "uh what about mexicans huh!? what about THEM? You're not interested in equality, you only see one side!" Which is ridiculous. I want everyone to be equal. Gays, women, transsexuals, blacks, hispanics, asians, whites, men, natives, and more. I'm focusing on women at the moment. That doesn't mean I don't care about any of the others. I don't want Ubisoft to just have a white female protagonist for example. A chinese female assassin for example would be way more preferable because then it, to be blunt, kills two birds with one stone. They feature chinese people as well as women rather than first making a white female and then being like "okay now we'll make a chinese assassin."

That's the thing though, gender equality should discuss both gender not simply the issues of one.



After a female Chinese assassin...why not a female ancient Egyptian? Or a bisexual female hispanic assassin in a Central or South American nation? Or...

I love Aveline because she's both black and a woman. I like her for similar reasons as I like Connor -- they're not just the staple. They're not just the default white, male hero.

So you like them merely because they're not common? That's not a very good reason.



P.S. I'm a 5'7ish white guy, weigh in the 100s, and I'm 20. It's one thing to have buff men as the heroes who don't reflect my exact body image...Nathan Drake for instance has a realistically, athletic body. This helps justify the gameplay and adventures. Now imagine if he was shirtless most of the game and in short shorts. Take fighting games...while the men are buff, this makes sense since it's a combat-focused game. But...they're also often fully clothed and sometimes get to wear sweet looking armor. The women on the other hand are often clothed in next to nothing and never get to wear armor despite it being combat-focused. The men are given outfits designed to protect them while women are given outfits designed to emphasize their sexuality.

Tell that to Kratos.

Once again I'll have to say that showing a little skin isn't bad, as I had said women have sexual books but that doesn't work for most men, we need to see or hear it in most cases and it often comes through with video games.

The guy in Twilight is an idiot basically but hey it's not aimed at men to read it's aimed at women to enjoy. There's a way to do it without being blatant of course, bikini armor is ridiculous and stupid, on the other hand a gunner character in an MMO with let's say a jacket over a white button up showing minor cleavage with a skirt (that's not ridiculously short mind you) is pretty sexy.

I actually hate that bikini armor and high heel crap a lot of MMO's do I can't stand it, it looks ******ed.

ProjectXanatos
06-18-2014, 05:54 AM
Lara wore that dress when she went to a party to get an artifact from a sleazy businessman. If I remember correctly, it wasn't that revealing until she needed her guns out and shooting people.

And then again, Kratos is a demi-god. He took a sword through the chest and crawled back from hell.

pirate1802
06-18-2014, 06:33 AM
Lara wore that dress when she went to a party to get an artifact from a sleazy businessman. If I remember correctly, it wasn't that revealing until she needed her guns out and shooting people.

Because she totally did not know she might end up in a firefight, so she picked the most awkward dress to go in? :rolleyes:

Actually there's a bit of history to it. They initially planned for her to go into a toilet and change into her combat suit, but scrapped it for ..reasons. Would have much preferred it that way. Even disregarding sexualization and what not, from a pure aesthetic viewpoint it looks ridiculous.


Ah but isn't that different? That's changing established characters. Mass Effect is a series with recurring characters whereas AC more or less changes it up per game barring the few direct sequels. For instance, if I recall correctly -- there was never any mention of Da Vinci being gay in AC2 but in ACB, they pretty heavily referenced it, at least in the DLC for him. That didn't feel like pandering despite it being an established character. I'm not asking for them to change any established characters by any means. If they had suddenly made Ezio bicurious in Brotherhood... it would have felt a little off unless they gave natural explanation.

That's because there's historical backing to Leonardo possibly being gay. And he never talked about his sexuality in AC2, so him being gay isn't that big of a shock. Things are different when a character actively refuses to bed a man and then does so later. Ofcourse many people come out later in their lives but it still feels a little too convenient.


I want Ubisoft to legitimately want to make a female protagonist but if they needed a jolt, maybe the reaction to the E3 demo might be a catalyst for them to develop a really cool female Assassin.

And maybe they are. They introduced a new modern day female assassin a few days ago. I can only imagine to relieve some female assassins. Regarding jolt, I doubt they'd been totally blind to the gender ratio of their games before this 'jolt'. Contrary to popular perception I don't believe they are made up of white racist males scheming in their boardrooms.


And I've already mentioned this... doing something new, being forced into a corner can help you be creative. For instance, a limited set of tools can allow an artist to create some wonderful stuff. Indie games don't have nearly the range of tools and money at their disposal and yet many gamers swear by indie titles and indie titles provide fresh and interesting takes on games.

Sorry, I'd agree to disagree. There's a difference between being pushed in a corner due to lack of resources and being pushed in a orner because someone somewhere isn't happy with you direction.


On the flip side, let's for the sake of argument say that the game after the next isn't too far along and Ubisoft decided to rewrite the script to make it a woman... it shouldn't have to change much aside from the "he" to "she" and things like that. While a female Assassin would be great for them to explore themes of sexism and stuff, it's not 100% essential. A female character could have virtually the same story as a male without feeling out of place or shoehorned.

Agree to disagree here as well. In an RPG maybe, change 'he' to 'she' and change around any possible romance scenes. But not in a narrative driven game like AC. In my interactions with human females I've found they see certain things completely different than males. So I'm not sure merely skin-swapping would do the trick. Take TR for example. That controversial 'rape' scene, happened mostly because she was a female. You can be reasonably certain that scene wouldn't be there if she was a he (unless the rapist was gay. Yes I know, Farcry 3 and all..)

And this begs the question: if the gender swapping is merely a skin-swapping, why would I be that interested in this at all? Feminists were up in arms over that rape scene, but for me it was good (..not in the pervy good way) because at least the devs are acknowledging she's a female, different than a male. Previous TRs were where you could swap Lara for a male character and you'd not notice a thing. What good is that for? I'd rather play a female where being female actually means something.

And in AC you can't do that anyway because this game is based somewhat on a real world. And in the real world especially in the past, women jumping around and doing typically male work would raise eyebrows. I'm not saying that this is an argument against using female protags, I'm saying that this is an argument on why you can't just change 'he' and 'she' and be done with it.

Jexx21
06-18-2014, 07:01 AM
Pirate, it's not that women think differently than men it's just that women tend to think differently than men and vice versa. Thus feminine and masculine traits. I'd actually describe myself as having a more feminine personality than masculine.

pirate1802
06-18-2014, 07:08 AM
I'd actually describe myself as having a more feminine personality than masculine.

Ah, I've always wondered..

I keed son, dun fel bed