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Sushiglutton
05-23-2014, 12:45 PM
Just curious to hear what you guys think about WD as it relates to AC (it's not a third party game, so I thought it would be ok to discuss on the board if the discussion is AC related):



Do you think the WD IP is as strong as AC?
Do you think it will become Ubi's new golden child and how will this affect AC?
Do you plan on buying it?
Anything you want AC to adopt from WD?
Sequel rate?


Or say something else about the AC/WD thing.

Locopells
05-23-2014, 12:56 PM
Strictly speaking the 3rd Party Game thread is supposed to cover other Ubi games as well, but if you're especially asking in relation to AC, I guess it's OK.

Will definitely buy it, when I get a new gaming rig. How it will affect AC remains to be seen...

shobhit7777777
05-23-2014, 01:06 PM
WD is a stronger, smarter, younger, prettier cousin of AC.

Jexx21
05-23-2014, 01:08 PM
- Yes
- No, they will share the limelight
- Yes
- No
- 1 every 2 years

ze_topazio
05-23-2014, 01:11 PM
Watch Dogs seems interesting but at the same time it seems like another open world game in a modern North American city full of skyscrapers and stuff.

shobhit7777777
05-23-2014, 01:23 PM
WD is a stronger, smarter, younger, prettier cousin of AC.

The sentence construction is messed up...

Jexx21
05-23-2014, 01:34 PM
Watch Dogs seems interesting but at the same time it seems like another open world game in a modern North American city full of skyscrapers and stuff.
Chicago hasn't ever really been conquered by games though.

I mean, it's not New York or LA. It's pretty new for a city.

LoyalACFan
05-23-2014, 01:38 PM
Do you think the WD IP is as strong as AC?

No, simply because it isn't as versatile. A lot of people jump on board the AC train every year because the new setting is interesting to them; the piracy angle of AC4 drew in tons of people, and I'm already seeing YouTube comments along the lines of "I'm new to AC but I love the French Revolution, so Unity here I come." And once they're on board, they're likely to pick up the next game(s) even if the setting isn't as interesting because they liked the gameplay of the last game.

With Watch_Dogs they're stuck in the present day/near future. You can't have a pre-21st century hacker game. And they're stuck pretty firmly with the hacker gimmick as well; AC is a little more flexible and there are more gimmicks they can draw on to keep things fresh (again, naval stuff and piracy is a perfect example). I guess they could take W_D into the distant future for a new spin on things if the formula gets old, but that would kind of negate the whole "this could be happening now" vibe the first game seems to be working really hard at.


Do you think it will become Ubi's new golden child and how will this affect AC?

No, for reasons stated above.


Do you plan on buying it?

Absolutely. I've had my concerns recently (not about the graphics, that's just a bunch of idiots pissing and moaning) but I've seen enough positive responses to sway me. I think the people who have played it and are reviewing it harshly are playing it too much like GTA, which is a disservice to the game. GTA is all about insane, guns a' blazing, balls-to-the-wall action, and that's cool in its place (I loved both GTA4 and GTA5), but it isn't what W_D is about. I think W_D will be much more enjoyable to the slow, strategic, and methodical player; if you try and force it to be a GTA clone you're going to be disappointed.


Anything you want AC to adopt from WD?

I may be speaking too soon, but W_D appears to have FAR better AI than Assassin's Creed. Now that I'm embarking on a career in game design and I'm inspecting things like this more closely, AC AI is almost painfully bad. Enemies literally just walk in random circles and, after a quick and cursory inspection, disregard the bodies of their friends I just massacred. AC stealth is only enjoyable to me anymore if I'm not seen AT ALL. If an enemy sees me twenty feet away and I can just crouch down into some grass to magically vanish, I have to restart the checkpoint and try again to keep myself from facepalming.

W_D guards seem a little more dynamic, which could possibly simply be due to the fact that Aiden has more tools to use against them. Hack something to lure them, set a trap with an IED, blow something up to scare the crap out of them... in AC we basically only have stab, shoot, and whistle. Which isn't bad for a historical stealth game, but it just feels primitive somehow because the guards suck so much.


Sequel rate?

At least biannual.

Sushiglutton
05-23-2014, 02:24 PM
The reason I asked is because my thinking is very similar to Loyal's and I wanted to check if anyone else saw it that way :).

I also think AC is a much stronger IP. Both for the reason Loyal said (flexibility), but also because I think AC stands out way more in the gaming landscape. Climbable, open, historical worlds is just plain awesome and it's something you can't get anywhere else (hence why people from all over the world come here to beg Ubi to set a game in their home country). AC also has philosophical and religious themes and an incredibly appealing aesthetic. Everything from the hood to the iconic poses of the assassins. It's a really great IP.

WD to me lacks a little bit of an identity (obv some of it is because I haven't played it for hundreds of hours). You can clearly see the influences from Splinter Cell, Assassin's Creed and GTA. I suppose the hacking and online is what sets it apart, but I dunno, I don't really feel it.

All this being said I'm still gonna play it, because the game looks like great fun (as are the games that have inspired it).


And Loyal, keep us posted on your AI analysis :)!

Farlander1991
05-23-2014, 02:33 PM
I don't think WD marketing lately does it good service, to be honest. The latest launch trailer has got barely anything on story and makes gameplay look more like GTA, if I had known nothing about the game I wouldn't realize it has to do anything with hacking.


Do you think the WD IP is as strong as AC?


No. AC is a goldmine. Here's the thing: Ubisoft doesn't need to create and market for a new IP for ANY historically-based action/adventure game EVER. They probably will, in time, I'm not sure AC IP is forever, but now they certainly don't have to. Possibly one of the reasons why Osiris was canned if it was based on actual history - from a business perspective you can either spend money trying to push that IP forward... or make it an AC game. Honestly, for now I don't have problems with that, although it would be nice to start seeing Ubisoft not focus on strictly one historical IP.


Do you think it will become Ubi's new golden child and how will this affect AC?


No (reasons mentioned above). I do think it's going to be a strong IP, and AC will most likely borrow something from WD (Ubi tends to borrow successful elements from one series to another)


Do you plan on buying it?


Yes.


Anything you want AC to adopt from WD?


Can't say until I play it.

Sushiglutton
05-23-2014, 02:39 PM
I don't think WD marketing lately does it good service, to be honest. The latest launch trailer has got barely anything on story and makes gameplay look more like GTA, if I had known nothing about the game I wouldn't realize it has to do anything with hacking.

I watched Gamespot's stream and I think it feels a ton like GTA. The hacking is a nice twist which obv adds a lot to the gameplay. The stealth focus also sets it apart from GTA. But the whole steal cars, set way point, listen to radio, mess with the police etc just screams GTA.

TheHumanTowel
05-23-2014, 02:46 PM
It just seems like your standard open world game to me. Heavily influenced by the GTA formula with a few slight twists. Watched a few streams and the driving doesn't appeal to me at all. Even big trucks handle like a lamborghini and the collisions don't look great. Story doesn't seem very interesting and Aiden Pierce seems kind of bland. Overall it just doesn't interest me much.

Farlander1991
05-23-2014, 02:48 PM
I watched Gamespot's stream and I think it feels a ton like GTA. The hacking is a nice twist which obv adds a lot to the gameplay. The stealth focus also sets it apart from GTA. But the whole steal cars, set way point, listen to radio, mess with the police etc just screams GTA.

Well, I don't get the 'GTA' vibe from it so far, it seems to have more focused design than GTA's (at least as of late) 'do everything!'

I will be kind of sad if it's going to be very GTA-esque, to be honest though. I don't really like GTA.

Dev_Anj
05-23-2014, 02:48 PM
I'm cautiously optimistic. I feel that the developers have their heart at the right place, and are trying to make a good game. I've heard both good and bad things about it. I think it has the best emergent gameplay for an open world game, but I'm not sure how many people will discover this. While I feel that it will be atleast partially successful, I hope they can avoid a lot of the controversy next time, and also get better marketing that shows the emergent design. Farlander1991 is right when he says that the game's advertising makes it look like a GTA clone.

Sushiglutton
05-23-2014, 02:53 PM
Well, I don't get the 'GTA' vibe from it so far, it seems to have more focused design than GTA's (at least as of late) 'do everything!'

I will be kind of sad if it's going to be very GTA-esque, to be honest though. I don't really like GTA.


Well you can cause havoc in a spider tank :) (which looked much better than I thought it would. pretty cool little arcade game).

I think people will have different opinion on how similar it is to GTA. Like I said there is plenty setting it apart. And the core gameplay seems to be more stealth oriented, while GTA is a pure action game, so that's a pretty massive difference right there.

Farlander1991
05-23-2014, 02:57 PM
Well you can cause havoc in a spider tank

Well, that's not part of the core experience though, but a DLC with digital drugs or smth, isn't it?

Sushiglutton
05-23-2014, 02:59 PM
Well, that's not part of the core experience though, but a DLC with digital drugs or smth, isn't it?

Pretty sure it's not DLC. There's a variety of digital trips you can take, won't spoil it for you ;). I def think it's a sideactivity and like I said it actually looked real fun.

Shahkulu101
05-23-2014, 03:01 PM
It looks cool and all, like Farlander said it has a more focused design than GTA games - which I will enjoy, GTA games are unnecessarily bloated with filler content. The hacking seems useful and pretty neat, but it's not anything spectacular. I'm sure I'll enjoy the game, though. But even Saint's Row is more original than Watch_Dogs, there's so much more we should be doing in Open-world cities. Driving, shooting etc. - it feels old. The formula is ingrained into my consciousness - and W_D's hacking doesn't look staged to revolutionize anything...it's just another cool mechanic.

I-Like-Pie45
05-23-2014, 03:03 PM
Generic Shoot and Drive game with a Press X to Win button tossed in

In other words

Crap

Locopells
05-23-2014, 03:07 PM
As ever, it's not as simple as that. Hacking is a limited resource, when on the run, and timing is important - much like AC in places...

Shahkulu101
05-23-2014, 03:09 PM
As ever, it's not as simple as that. Hacking is a limited resource, when on the run, and timing is important - much like AC in places...

Shhh, let the cynical hipsters wallow in their negativity...

Dev_Anj
05-23-2014, 03:10 PM
Oh come on Locopells, you should know not to take I-Like-Pie 45 seriously. :p

SixKeys
05-23-2014, 03:39 PM
I do plan on getting WD, but I'm staying away from spoilers until then. I think parts of it will appeal to some AC fans while others are only interested in AC for the historicism, so I can't say how strong a contender WD is for AC. I see it as the long-awaited modern day AC, which is why I'm excited. I always wanted Desmond to get a chance to use modern day weapons and gadgets to become the ultimate assassin. WD seems like it has open-ended scenarios which is what AC devs should be focusing on. Can't say anything about sequels yet, the game will have to prove itself first.

LoyalACFan
05-23-2014, 03:42 PM
Can't say anything about sequels yet, the game will have to prove itself first.

They've already planned sequels, Yves confirmed it a while back. The only question is how long it'll be until they launch one.

Megas_Doux
05-23-2014, 03:45 PM
Do you think the WD IP is as strong as AC?
Not yet, it could be though. Thing is that in AC you can "easily" come up with yearly releases because the true star of the franchise is the historic setting. Visiting the caribbean in the early XVIII century, Italian Renaissance or the Crusades.

Do you think it will become Ubi's new golden child and how will this affect AC?
May be, depends on the sales.

Do you plan on buying it?
Yes!

Anything you want AC to adopt from WD?
I have yet to play it

Sequel rate?
One every two or three years.

jayjay275
05-23-2014, 03:58 PM
Do you think the WD IP is as strong as AC?
Do you think it will become Ubi's new golden child and how will this affect AC?
Do you plan on buying it?
Anything you want AC to adopt from WD?
Sequel rate?


No
No
Yes
If they are, the more intelligent AI.
A game every 2 years, so it doesn't affect AC sales as much.


Just to those that don't know, I recall reading an article that Ubisoft stated they won't make games if they cannot be made into franchises.

Locopells
05-23-2014, 04:01 PM
Oh come on Locopells, you should know not to take I-Like-Pie 45 seriously. :p

!

Doesn't hurt to say though, just in case others do...

Jexx21
05-23-2014, 04:18 PM
It looks cool and all, like Farlander said it has a more focused design than GTA games - which I will enjoy, GTA games are unnecessarily bloated with filler content. The hacking seems useful and pretty neat, but it's not anything spectacular. I'm sure I'll enjoy the game, though. But even Saint's Row is more original than Watch_Dogs, there's so much more we should be doing in Open-world cities. Driving, shooting etc. - it feels old. The formula is ingrained into my consciousness - and W_D's hacking doesn't look staged to revolutionize anything...it's just another cool mechanic.

I don't understand how people don't think that the hacking is original.

It's like the newest thing to happen to games in ages: You're controlling the environment around you rather than purely adapting to it.

jdowny
05-23-2014, 04:20 PM
I was all on board the hype train for Watch Dogs back at E3 2012 - It looked like an intelligent, open-world, thinking man's GTA even. Having seen the first lets plays (which are on Youtube already) it seems pretty clear that it's trying to emulate GTA, not differ from it. It's also got that frustrating Ubisoft touch - the 'go here, do this, kill X, don't get spotted' constraints that I've grown to dislike in the AC series. What's worse is the GTA V drug trip, coin collecting from Mario and the robot spider side missions that seem to go against everything the game advertised itself as.

I probably will pick it up down the line when my machine can run it, but for me Watch_Dogs had an opportunity prove itself a different beast. I'm disappointed on that front.

Jexx21
05-23-2014, 04:32 PM
btw the open world driving/shooting in a city thing isn't exclusive to GTA

GTA
Saint's Row
Sleeping Dogs (And the True Crime series before it)
Yakuza (I think?)
Mafia

Watch Dogs is in that genre but it adds the hacking mechanic which is a brand new thing for games in the sense of controlling the various facets of a city.

Dev_Anj
05-23-2014, 04:37 PM
GTA wasn't even technically a full fledged open world game until GTA 3.

jdowny
05-23-2014, 04:58 PM
btw the open world driving/shooting in a city thing isn't exclusive to GTA

GTA
Saint's Row
Sleeping Dogs (And the True Crime series before it)
Yakuza (I think?)
Mafia

Watch Dogs is in that genre but it adds the hacking mechanic which is a brand new thing for games in the sense of controlling the various facets of a city.

Just because it adds something new doesn't make it different from GTA. I say it's like GTA not because it's an open world sandbox (there are hundreds of them) but because GTA is about causing explosions, mayhem, violence, stunt jumps, escaping police etc. At its core it's an arcade game. Of the ones you've mentioned, GTA came first and is therefore the archetype (though I'd say Mafia is the only one of those that doesn't emulate it).

It's fine to go in the same vein - it's a successful and profitable decision after all, and there have been many games that have done so and still been highly successful in their own right. But Watch Dogs seemed to advertise something that was grounded in reality - so killing a dozen cops or citizens actually carried some ramifications. I'm aware there's a morality metre, but this doesn't nearly go far enough for me.

I guess I just wanted it to be less GTA and more Mafia, which had an incredibly cinematic story.

TheHumanTowel
05-23-2014, 05:04 PM
btw the open world driving/shooting in a city thing isn't exclusive to GTA

GTA
Saint's Row
Sleeping Dogs (And the True Crime series before it)
Yakuza (I think?)
Mafia

Watch Dogs is in that genre but it adds the hacking mechanic which is a brand new thing for games in the sense of controlling the various facets of a city.
Yeah but all of those series are heavily (and I mean heavily) influenced by the template Rockstar set with GTA 3. GTA 3 was a watershed moment in gaming and almost defined what an open world game is. So the driving/shooting open world games can all pretty much be traced back to GTA.


GTA wasn't even technically a full fledged open world game until GTA 3.
Eh the first two GTA games were open world they were just top down. And there wasn't really such thing as a 3D open world game before GTA3.

Jexx21
05-23-2014, 05:56 PM
Just because it adds something new doesn't make it different from GTA. I say it's like GTA not because it's an open world sandbox (there are hundreds of them) but because GTA is about causing explosions, mayhem, violence, stunt jumps, escaping police etc. At its core it's an arcade game. Of the ones you've mentioned, GTA came first and is therefore the archetype (though I'd say Mafia is the only one of those that doesn't emulate it).

It's fine to go in the same vein - it's a successful and profitable decision after all, and there have been many games that have done so and still been highly successful in their own right. But Watch Dogs seemed to advertise something that was grounded in reality - so killing a dozen cops or citizens actually carried some ramifications. I'm aware there's a morality metre, but this doesn't nearly go far enough for me.

I guess I just wanted it to be less GTA and more Mafia, which had an incredibly cinematic story.

I'm not going into Watch Dogs to cause any of that stuff. I'm going in to stop crimes, hack the city and turn it against my enemies, and roam around Chicago. And killing cops and civilians is going to carry ramifications, the reputation meter will affect how civilians react to you and it will provide gameplay consequences in either direction. I would suggest not to judge it on that aspect until you play it though.

Also all of that stuff is in Mafia (or at least Mafia II) so it definitely follows the GTA archetype.

murphdawg1
05-23-2014, 06:55 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing AC incorporate some of the multiplayer aspects of Watch Dogs such as online free roam and possibly the ability to go into another player's game but having the option to either try and assassinate them or you could work with them.

Locopells
05-23-2014, 06:58 PM
Yeah - blend that with the stalker aspect from ACR, that would work. I was kinda cold on the WD invasion of another person's SP game thing, but I'm warming to the idea (though it'll probably still get annoying at times, though).

murphdawg1
05-23-2014, 07:06 PM
Yeah - blend that with the stalker aspect from ACR, that would work. I was kinda cold on the WD invasion of another person's SP game thing, but I'm warming to the idea (though it'll probably still get annoying at times, though).

The good thing is that you can turn it off.

Locopells
05-23-2014, 07:13 PM
You can, but it resets anything you've gained from it, if you do...

LoyalACFan
05-25-2014, 03:12 AM
You can, but it resets anything you've gained from it, if you do...

This is a terrible idea and needs to be patched ASAP. There should always be an option to turn it off unless you've been absolutely rampant in your invasion of other players.

I-Like-Pie45
05-25-2014, 03:14 AM
You can, but it resets anything you've gained from it, if you do...

0/10! 0/10! 0/10! 0/10!

Jexx21
05-25-2014, 03:35 AM
You can, but it resets anything you've gained from it, if you do...
it only resets the multiplayer specific crap though, and the MP specific stuff are small bonuses that you activate during multiplayer

BoBwUzHeRe1138
05-25-2014, 03:56 AM
Watch_Dogs is the first game I'm getting for my PS4 because of how fantastic it looks.

Already pre-ordered it off Amazon Prime so it should get the 27th! Super excited. Anyway -- I think it has a lot of potential. I do see it being a cash cow for Ubisoft. Maybe not as big as AC but definitely there.

The thing about W_D is that it's almost like a modern day AC... only without me hating it like I'd hate a modern day AC. I can definitely see it going more and more cyberpunk-y as well. We could potentially see ctOS go from city-wide to state-wide to country-wide to even possibly global. As that happens, they can enter even more cyberpunk future stuff if they want and I'd be totally cool with it. Almost like how AC deals pretty exclusively in the past (barring the mostly slim 'modern' portions, W_D would take place strictly modern but potentially get progressively more futuristic and cyberpunk. It would have to. We're not getting a ctOS or anything yet and if this game is set only a few years from now, in its universe, the fact that a city-wide OS is installed would change technology and social interaction and things could go from there. I'm not saying W_D.2 will be Deus Ex: Watch_Dogs Edition but I wouldn't mind if it starts to plant seeds of something along those lines. Then again, I love cyberpunk AND Deus Ex soooo....yeah.

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 04:37 AM
I just looked a 2hour Let's Play of the game...I'm sorry, but it's broken.

1/ Hacking is limited, really really really limited. They are like 10 hacks that you can use to 'control the environment' and they are all divided to a very specific task. Like, Cameras are only usefull for sneaking, traffic lights for loosing the cops and lifts for accessing higher levels. But that's it, all the rest is just replacing what was already done before. Like for example hacking a car is just a replacement for breaking the window. So it's cool one or two times, but it quickly becomes repetitive and therefore annoying.

2/ Infiltration is a rip-off from Splinter Cell. The problem with this is that Watch_Dogs is not an infiltration game and that, sometimes, it looks odd. Like for example when Aiden crouches to stalk someone...in the middle od=f the street. Remember when the AC Devs told us they wouldn't let manual crouching because it would look suspicious for the player to crouch in a middle of a crowd. Well it seems they haven't told the Watch_Dogs team about it. And it's sad since they could've simple put a up cover animation and it would've been fixed...

But that's not all. The mechanics don't work, the way Aiden moves isn't efficient and you can hardly cover proprely without risking failing and being directly in the sight of the ennemy. And since you can't control the infiltration mode, you can't hide again or if you want to, you have to find a cover and...wait. But even if you do success, it seems the level-design was made for battle and you end up in one anyway.

3/ Combat looks bad, really really bad. First off, they seems to be no damage localisation, which is lame. Second off all, it's way to easy, it takes one to two bullet to kill an enemy and over a complete load to take you down. Plus the enemy isn't brilliant, and it's most like every other TPS, cover, shoot, cover, shoot...Serioulsy Uncharted 3 has a better gameplay. Also, just like AC, there is no impact feeling, the enemies feels like potatoe bags. Even Aiden sometimes look totally empty, like floating in the environment. Though I have still not seen a single execution, maybe they will spice things up.

But now I'm looking at this mission, where Snipers try to take you down. And right next to every one of them...a contorl panel to explose, isn't it wonderfull, the game almost tells you press X to win.

I really feel like they have totally missed their shot on this game. The essence of Watch_Dogs seems to be in the social blending, just like AC, but here I only see buildings infiltration, chasing missions and closed environment gunfights. Is this the definition of Open-World for Ubisoft ? I really hope not, because if it does, they are going to have a though time againts The Witcher 3 and Metal Gear Solid V.

Anyway, I'll try to test it myself as soon as I can, but really, big big big disapointment...

Edit: OMG, I think they put the 'jogging' when you fully push the joystick. This is so, so so dumb. I really hope I'm wrong. But if it's true, they might just have killed they game right here.

Dev_Anj
05-25-2014, 04:51 AM
I just looked a 2hour Let's Play of the game...I'm sorry, but it's broken.

1/ Hacking is limited, really really really limited. They are like 10 hacks that you can use to 'control the environment' and they are all divided to a very specific task. Like, Cameras are only usefull for sneaking, traffic lights for loosing the cops and lifts for accessing higher levels. But that's it, all the rest is just replacing what was already done before. Like for example hacking a car is just a replacement for breaking the window. So it's cool one or two times, but it quickly becomes repetitive and therefore annoying.

That's really disappointing to hear. I'll be checking let's plays later, and I hope the mission design is good still.

STDlyMcStudpants
05-25-2014, 05:02 AM
Do you think the WD IP is as strong as AC?
Lol...cute question...

Do you think it will become Ubi's new golden child and how will this affect AC?
I personally believe that Watch_Dogs was created to take Assassin's Creeds place as it's spiritual successor after AC3 just as Assassin's Creed is Prince of Persia spiritual successor. :)
But it's clear that this plan has changed.

Do you plan on buying it?
I buy almost everything because I'm a trophy hunter.. but either way was on m must have list

Anything you want AC to adopt from WD?
Idk yet...haven't played the game.

Sequel rate?
TBH I wouldn't be surprised if it alternates with AC Starting 2016 if AC doesnt end with AC V next year that is

Assassin_M
05-25-2014, 05:05 AM
Most of the people who played Watch Dogs say it's awesome, those who are graphic *****s or watched it on YT say it sucks.....well.

Assassin_M
05-25-2014, 05:15 AM
1/ Hacking is limited, really really really limited. They are like 10 hacks that you can use to 'control the environment' and they are all divided to a very specific task. Like, Cameras are only usefull for sneaking, traffic lights for loosing the cops and lifts for accessing higher levels. But that's it, all the rest is just replacing what was already done before. Like for example hacking a car is just a replacement for breaking the window. So it's cool one or two times, but it quickly becomes repetitive and therefore annoying.
I think there are distraction hacks, subduing hacks, evasion hacks, aesthetic hacks, mission hacks, puzzle hacks, lethal hacks and environmental hacks.

Distraction: a car alarm, a singing fish and some other things that I don't know the names of
Subduing: Steam pipes, electricity boxes and some other thing
Evasion: traffic lights, bridges, blockers and chase breakers and blackout
Aesthetic: Toys, soda machines, music...etc (those can also be used as distractions)
Mission: Crimes
Puzzle hacks: privacy invasion
Lethal: detonate bombs
Environmental: Protectors, window platforms, forklifts...etc

There're also other hacks that I can't quite find a category for yet. trains, cameras, bank accounts, carriers and billboards..

I'm sure there's more but that's what I know so far...doesn't seem THAT bad and about breaking into cars or hacking them, breaking the window would prompt NPCs to call 911 while hacking obviously would let slip by clean.




2/ Infiltration is a rip-off from Splinter Cell. The problem with this is that Watch_Dogs is not an infiltration game and that, sometimes, it looks odd. Like for example when Aiden crouches to stalk someone...in the middle od=f the street. Remember when the AC Devs told us they wouldn't let manual crouching because it would look suspicious for the player to crouch in a middle of a crowd. Well it seems they haven't told the Watch_Dogs team about it. And it's sad since they could've simple put a up cover animation and it would've been fixed...
I don't see how that's bad


But that's not all. The mechanics don't work, the way Aiden moves isn't efficient and you can hardly cover proprely without risking failing and being directly in the sight of the ennemy. And since you can't control the infiltration mode, you can't hide again or if you want to, you have to find a cover and...wait. But even if you do success, it seems the level-design was made for battle and you end up in one anyway.
I find it difficult to believe that you came to this conclusion through analysis of someone else playing.


3/ Combat looks bad, really really bad. First off, they seems to be no damage localisation, which is lame. Second off all, it's way to easy, it takes one to two bullet to kill an enemy and over a complete load to take you down. Plus the enemy isn't brilliant, and it's most like every other TPS, cover, shoot, cover, shoot...Serioulsy Uncharted 3 has a better gameplay. Also, just like AC, there is no impact feeling, the enemies feels like potatoe bags. Even Aiden sometimes look totally empty, like floating in the environment. Though I have still not seen a single execution, maybe they will spice things up.
well, that sounds worrisome regarding combat challenge level but what else do you expect of a TPS, honestly? it's not like it's JUST a shooter.



I really feel like they have totally missed their shot on this game. The essence of Watch_Dogs seems to be in the social blending, just like AC, but here I only see buildings infiltration, chasing missions and closed environment gunfights. Is this the definition of Open-World for Ubisoft ? I really hope not, because if it does, they are going to have a though time againts The Witcher 3 and Metal Gear Solid V.
I don't think this game is about social blending to be honest...if the missions are fun and innovative, then I don't see why this rendition of an open world game is bad and you're basing ALL of this on 2 hours of gameplay that you havent even played.


Edit: OMG, I think they put the 'jogging' when you fully push the joystick. This is so, so so dumb. I really hope I'm wrong. But if it's true, they might just have killed they game right here.
I don't think so, they wouldnt do that, I think..

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 05:15 AM
Most of the people who played Watch Dogs say it's awesome, those who are graphic *****s or watched it on YT say it sucks.....well.

I'm no graphic hunter, I don't really care about texture, physics and feeling is much more important for me. And frankly, from what I've seen, it's just as good as Black Flag. But, I hated Black Flag, so here we are. And I can tell E3 2012 Watch_Dogs and Final Watch_Dogs don't feel the same. I mean, they have changed the face and voice of Aiden, also his character somehow. Plus they've removed the little Xs and replaced them with actual buttons like X/ Square, you know little things here and there...

Though seriously there are some things that are just annoying, even without playing the game I can already tell this is gonna concern me. A good example would the blue directions on the road, I just can't stand them, it totally breaks the immersion for me and feels like I'm taken by the hand all the time. On the same edge the fact that uppon every single action you have and indication on what button to press, which I think is unnecessery and bad for the game since you can't explore the gameplay and master it, you just press when you are told to.

Oh yeah and the fact the Aiden constantly talks to himself explaining what's happening and what's he is thinking, so you know, you player can understand what is happening...*sigh*. Anyway I know that by simply walking all the time and only using a handgun and avoiding all try of infiltration i'll be fine.

Assassin_M
05-25-2014, 05:29 AM
I'm no graphic hunter, I don't really care about texture, physics and feeling is much more important for me. And frankly, from what I've seen, it's just as good as Black Flag. But, I hated Black Flag, so here we are. And I can tell E3 2012 Watch_Dogs and Final Watch_Dogs don't feel the same. I mean, they have changed the face and voice of Aiden, also his character somehow. Plus they've removed the little Xs and replaced them with actual buttons like X/ Square, you know little things here and there...
that ALWAYS happens in every game when it's marketing period is over one year...Alpha stage development assets are constantly changed, taken to different directions...etc. I could why some HUD elements are annoying, though


Though seriously there are some things that are just annoying, even without playing the game I can already tell this is gonna concern me. A good example would the blue directions on the road, I just can't stand them, it totally breaks the immersion for me and feels like I'm taken by the hand all the time. On the same edge the fact that uppon every single action you have and indication on what button to press, which I think is unnecessery and bad for the game since you can't explore the gameplay and master it, you just press when you are told to.
Hopefully, we can have full control over the HUD elements because those are, agreed, annoying.


Oh yeah and the fact the Aiden constantly talks to himself explaining what's happening and what's he is thinking, so you know, you player can understand what is happening...*sigh*. Anyway I know that by simply walking all the time and only using a handgun and avoiding all try of infiltration i'll be fine.
Haven't been watching story, so can't comment on that

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 05:41 AM
I think there are distraction hacks, subduing hacks, evasion hacks, aesthetic hacks, mission hacks, puzzle hacks, lethal hacks and environmental hacks.

Distraction: a car alarm, a singing fish and some other things that I don't know the names of
Subduing: Steam pipes, electricity boxes and some other thing
Evasion: traffic lights, bridges, blockers and chase breakers and blackout
Aesthetic: Toys, soda machines...etc
Mission: Crimes
Puzzle hacks: privacy invasion
Lethal: detonate bombs
Environmental: Protectors, window platforms, forklifts...etc

I'm sure there's more but that's what I know so far...doesn't seem THAT bad.

Well from that list it seems we can indeed do much. Though I thinkg we could cut some bits from it, like Aesthetic, Mission, Puzzle and Environmental, since it's just a remanipulation of the context. So we are left with:

Distraction
Subduing
Evasion
Lethal

It seems indeed interesting. But I've seen the enemy directly positionning onto lethal object. Seriously they literelly moved on it. I mean, I could see a situation where you ahve to explode a steam pipe to push you opponent againts a Bomb and make it blow, that would make sense.


I don't see how that's bad

It just feels odd don't you think ? Oh yeah and sometimes it may block your attacks. Like in you cover behing a column and there is a low wall not far, you may not be able to shoot precisely. But it mostly feels odd in 2014, seriously GTA 4 (2008) gave the possibility to stand up or crouch in cover position, 2008.


I find it difficult to believe that you came to this conclusion through analysis of someone else playing.

I've had this opinion since they showed us the 13 min PS4 footage 5 months ago. But I've also read a test that pull out the whole combat over infiltration, that's why I said it seemed to be like that. Because really they don't seem to have implanted any option for Aiden to hide after being spotted. Though on the 2 hours there have been like 3 infiltration missions so it's not as bad as it seems, it's just that, like in AC I guess, it's much more easier to kill everybody than to sneek in and try to be unseen.



well, that sounds worrisome regarding combat challenge level but what else do you expect of a TPS, honestly? it's not like it's JUST a shooter.

GTA V nailed it.


I don't think this game is about social blending to be honest...if the missions are fun and innovative, then I don't see why this rendition of an open world game is bad and you're basing ALL of this on 2 hours of gameplay that you havent even played.

Well the concept of it all is to move through society and check on the private lifes of other. I don't know if I'm clear here but I don't feel comfrotable knowing the mission design is based on 'You, go here, do this, escape' or on solo mission. I feel like there should be civilians and crowds in every single mission. Just like the E3 Demo ! You know, hacking the secretary of your target. Analysing the threats around you (like the Krav Maga guy) then provocking an accident, injuries, etc etc etc.


I don't think so, they wouldnt do that, I think..

I hope you are right, because slowly pushing a joystick is a solid pain in the butt. And it would be awfull for PC players !

LoyalACFan
05-25-2014, 05:51 AM
Though seriously there are some things that are just annoying, even without playing the game I can already tell this is gonna concern me. A good example would the blue directions on the road, I just can't stand them, it totally breaks the immersion for me and feels like I'm taken by the hand all the time.

I actually like that, it lets you keep your eye on the actual game world instead of staring at the minimap when you're trying to get somewhere specific. Now, if this was a historical game or something, I would absolutely detest it, but in a setting that's already clogged with a billion lights, digital effects and the like, I think it's alright. Besides, doesn't it only show up if you've got a waypoint set? If you want to just immerse yourself and roam around aimlessly, there's no need to worry about the blue directions anyway.


But that's not all. The mechanics don't work, the way Aiden moves isn't efficient and you can hardly cover proprely without risking failing and being directly in the sight of the ennemy. And since you can't control the infiltration mode, you can't hide again or if you want to, you have to find a cover and...wait. But even if you do success, it seems the level-design was made for battle and you end up in one anyway.

How could you possibly tell without playing yourself? Maybe the guy you were watching just sucked at the game.


Aiden crouches to stalk someone...in the middle of the street.

Edit: OMG, I think they put the 'jogging' when you fully push the joystick. This is so, so so dumb. I really hope I'm wrong. But if it's true, they might just have killed they game right here.

Now, these actually are problems if they're true, but again, how could you tell that about the jogging just from watching footage?

Assassin_M
05-25-2014, 05:55 AM
Well from that list it seems we can indeed do much. Though I thinkg we could cut some bits from it, like Aesthetic, Mission, Puzzle and Environmental, since it's just a remanipulation of the context. So we are left with:

Distraction
Subduing
Evasion
Lethal

It seems indeed interesting. But I've seen the enemy directly positionning onto lethal object. Seriously they literelly moved on it. I mean, I could see a situation where you ahve to explode a steam pipe to push you opponent againts a Bomb and make it blow, that would make sense.
but why cut anything at all?? the whole game's theme is controlling your environment and creating opportunities, those are all gameplay aspects and give you the feeling of being in control and sorry but I disagree with ignoring mission, Puzzle and environmental as reskins.

You only saw 2 hours of gameplay, that's VERY early into the game and that may get more complex as it goes on.



It just feels odd don't you think ? Oh yeah and sometimes it may block your attacks. Like in you cover behing a column and there is a low wall not far, you may not be able to shoot precisely. But it mostly feels odd in 2014, seriously GTA 4 (2008) gave the possibility to stand up or crouch in cover position, 2008.
doesnt really feel odd to me at all, I never really understood the concept of "ripping off" if it works and is a good mechanic then what's wrong with reusing it? (if it's not bound by any legalities)
That might cause problems, yes i'll concede to that point about cover.



I've had this opinion since they showed us the 13 min PS4 footage 5 months ago. But I've also read a test that pull out the whole combat over infiltration, that's why I said it seemed to be like that. Because really they don't seem to have implanted any option for Aiden to hide after being spotted. Though on the 2 hours there have been like 3 infiltration missions so it's not as bad as it seems, it's just that, like in AC I guess, it's much more easier to kill everybody than to sneek in and try to be unseen.
it's more realistic that way imo. it looked dumb as hell in AC to just pop up in a restricted area and do whatever and then easily hide again with them returning to their positions as if nothing happened...I think it adds challenge that you either try and stay stealthy all the time or get detected and be forced into a fire fight (which is more realistic) HOWEVER, if the game's AI detection is broken or if you're detected due to a problem with the game, then that's another story altogether.

Also, i'm not really a fan of the "force" approach that some propose for encouragement of stealth. I want to be stealthy because I want to not because it's impossible NOT to do it any other way (though I will admit, if the shooting is easy, i'll be disappointed) I don't think the player needs to be forced, I think the player needs a balance between both with both needing necessary skill to properly act upon.



GTA V nailed it.
to an extent, yes



Well the concept of it all is to move through society and check on the private lifes of other. I don't know if I'm clear here but I don't feel comfrotable knowing the mission design is based on 'You, go here, do this, escape' or on solo mission. I feel like there should be civilians and crowds in every single mission. Just like the E3 Demo ! You know, hacking the secretary of your target. Analysing the threats around you (like the Krav Maga guy) then provocking an accident, injuries, etc etc etc.
but you only saw 2 hours xD



I hope you are right, because slowly pushing a joystick is a solid pain in the butt. And it would be awfull for PC players !
Oh I know, I hope i'm right...it wouldn't make sense to revert to something most open world games have abandoned now.

AssassinHMS
05-25-2014, 06:03 AM
AC has something WD doesn't, a historical component. The only reason why the devs weren't forced to put some real effort on AC's core by now or to give up on the franchise entirely, is because AC is the only franchise that allows gamers to free roam on historical locations while exploring that particular time period. That is it. From AC1, where History was only the background to AC4, where "History" is contantly thrown at the screen, that is the ultimate proof that the only thing that holds this franchise is the fact there is no other open world historical game to compete with.

So, as far as I can see, WD can never hope to replace or achieve what AC did.

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 06:13 AM
but why cut anything at all?? the whole game's theme is controlling your environment and creating opportunities, those are all gameplay aspects and give you the feeling of being in control and sorry but I disagree with ignoring mission, Puzzle and environmental as reskins.

You only saw 2 hours of gameplay, that's VERY early into the game and that may get more complex as it goes on.

Because it's useless.
Puzzle is a mini-game, so you don't have much control on anything here.
And the environment well, the lift could've been trigered by pushing a button, the 'protector' could've been default, because you end up pulling them up anyway, so it's there, but it's not the core of the gameplay, it is mostly a gadget, like hacking into bank accounts. You can use it, but it's a one way action, there are no consequences on the world around you.


doesnt really feel odd to me at all, I never really understood the concept of "ripping off" if it works and is a good mechanic then what's wrong with reusing it? (if it's not bound by any legalities)
That might cause problems, yes i'll concede to that point about cover.

Ripping off isn't really the major problem, since Splinter Cell mechanics are pretty good, but i think i'll come back on it when i play it. Though Aiden not standing in cover, that feels odd.


it's more realistic that way imo. it looked dumb as hell in AC to just pop up in a restricted area and do whatever and then easily hide again with them returning to their positions as if nothing happened...I think it adds challenge that you either try and stay stealthy all the time or get detected and be forced into a fire fight (which is more realistic) HOWEVER, if the game's AI detection is broken or if you're detected due to a problem with the game, then that's another story altogether.

Sure, but then you can't sneek behind your ennemies anymore, and that is lame. Though maybe they stay in alert but let you sneek again, I must say I don't if you can actually return to hidden mode.


Also, i'm not really a fan of the "force" approach that some propose for encouragement of stealth. I want to be stealthy because I want to not because it's impossible NOT to do it any other way (though I will admit, if the shooting is easy, i'll be disappointed) I don't think the player needs to be forced, I think the player needs a balance between both with both needing necessary skill to properly act upon.

Agreed.


but you only saw 2 hours xD

that's why I must try it over during the week-end !


AC has something WD doesn't, a historical component. The only reason why the devs weren't forced to put some real effort on AC's core by now or to give up on the franchise entirely, is because AC is the only franchise that allows gamers to free roam on historical locations while exploring that particular time period. That is it. From AC1, where History was only the background to AC4, where "History" is contantly thrown at the screen, that is the ultimate proof that the only thing that holds this franchise is the fact there is no other open world historical game to compete with.

So, as far as I can see, WD can never hope to replace or achieve what AC did.

yeah well the games are kinda fun, i guess.

AssassinHMS
05-25-2014, 06:44 AM
yeah well the games are kinda fun, i guess.

They are, but not fun enough to hide immensely poor core mechanics that have followed the franchise for 6 games. I mean, if a game's core isn't good, what could possibly save it? Side mechanics like naval? They can draw attention, mask it for a while sure, but by the third instalment the problem would become obvious. History is what saved AC and made possible the development of mechanics like naval. But AC wouldn't need saving in the first place, if only they focused on improving the formula. Instead they completely shifted the focus. Assassinations, Investigations, freedom (open ended missions), core mechanics, all of those things that ARE AC were treated as secondary. The focus shifted to action, HISTORY, new mechanics like naval, linearity, flashy gameplay and a casual approach (less of a simulator, more of a speedy, easy peasy tour). These things BECAME AC. Tons of games already offer this and do a better job at it. The historical component is the only thing that allows AC to have its privileges.
"A new AC? Is it set in China? Egypt? No? Next year then..."

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 07:04 AM
It's all here

http://www.covergalaxy.com/forum/attachments/sony-ps3/4270d1197352760-assassins-creed-r1-cover-assassins-creed-r1-cover.jpg

http://www.covergalaxy.com/forum/attachments/sony-ps3/4270d1197352760-assassins-creed-r1-cover-assassins-creed-r1-cover.jpg

Plan your attack
Strike without mercy,
And fight your way to escape


This should be in the AC Forum chart.

LoyalACFan
05-25-2014, 07:04 AM
They are, but not fun enough to hide immensely poor core mechanics that have followed the franchise for 6 games. I mean, if a game's core isn't good, what could possibly save it? Side mechanics like naval? They can draw attention, mask it for a while sure, but by the third instalment the problem would become obvious. History is what saved AC and made possible the development of mechanics like naval. But AC wouldn't need saving in the first place, if only they focused on improving the formula. Instead they completely shifted the focus. Assassinations, Investigations, freedom (open ended missions), core mechanics, all of those things that ARE AC were treated as secondary. The focus shifted to action, HISTORY, new mechanics like naval, linearity, flashy gameplay and a casual approach (less of a simulator, more of a speedy, easy peasy tour). These things BECAME AC. Tons of games already offer this and do a better job at it. The historical component is the only thing that allows AC to have its privileges.
"A new AC? Is it set in China? Egypt? No? Next year then..."

I disagree with a lot of your posts, but this is absolutely spot-on. I'm interested to see how Unity handles itself mechanically, because seeing as how it's set during a period where there were very few major battles and explosions, they don't have much of a crutch to lean on as far as that's concerned. AI, stealth, mission design and combat (in that order, by descending importance) need to be seriously reexamined.

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 07:12 AM
I disagree with a lot of your posts, but this is absolutely spot-on. I'm interested to see how Unity handles itself mechanically, because seeing as how it's set during a period where there were very few major battles and explosions, they don't have much of a crutch to lean on as far as that's concerned. AI, stealth, mission design and combat (in that order, by descending importance) need to be seriously reexamined.

Freeroaming too, it's too simple as it is right now.

LoyalACFan
05-25-2014, 07:24 AM
Freeroaming too, it's too simple as it is right now.

I feel like the freerunning should be simple though. Part of the appeal of AC is being able to climb anything, go anywhere at a whim, minus those ****ing arbitrary desync walls they keep shoving in our faces; if it's a challenge to simply traverse the environment, then that's a bad thing because it discourages exploration. As long as there's an element of path-finding and puzzle-solving to the larger landmarks, I think easy freerunning is a plus.

The real problem right now is that it's too sticky and imprecise. I frequently find myself leaping to rails, walls, boxes, and tree stumps I had no intention of traveling to in the first place, and more infuriatingly, I find myself stuck to something while I'm pressing R2+forward and there's CLEARLY something right in front of me to jump to (this happens mostly in trees). It might just be a product of the more naturalistic, colonial environment (more uneven land, irregular structures, and junk sitting around on the ground) but whatever it is it's been sort of "off" for the last two games.

Dev_Anj
05-25-2014, 07:28 AM
AC has something WD doesn't, a historical component. The only reason why the devs weren't forced to put some real effort on AC's core by now or to give up on the franchise entirely, is because AC is the only franchise that allows gamers to free roam on historical locations while exploring that particular time period. That is it. From AC1, where History was only the background to AC4, where "History" is contantly thrown at the screen, that is the ultimate proof that the only thing that holds this franchise is the fact there is no other open world historical game to compete with.


I'm really curious to see what will happen to the Assassin's Creed franchise if a company can make a more polished, more focused, more mechanically sound historical platformer/sneaker/sword combat game to compete with AC. Some day, that'll happen, and I'll get the answer.

LoyalACFan
05-25-2014, 07:31 AM
I'm really curious to see what will happen to the Assassin's Creed franchise if a company can make a more polished, more focused, more mechanically sound historical platformer/sneaker/sword combat game to compete with AC. Some day, that'll happen, and I'll get the answer.

Well, Shadow of Mordor is coming out this year, so that might be a contender. I think it looks like crap personally, but you never know. At least it's some high-profile competition that might make Ubisoft get their asses in gear.

AdamPearce
05-25-2014, 07:59 AM
I feel like the freerunning should be simple though. Part of the appeal of AC is being able to climb anything, go anywhere at a whim, minus those ****ing arbitrary desync walls they keep shoving in our faces; if it's a challenge to simply traverse the environment, then that's a bad thing because it discourages exploration. As long as there's an element of path-finding and puzzle-solving to the larger landmarks, I think easy freerunning is a plus.

The real problem right now is that it's too sticky and imprecise. I frequently find myself leaping to rails, walls, boxes, and tree stumps I had no intention of traveling to in the first place, and more infuriatingly, I find myself stuck to something while I'm pressing R2+forward and there's CLEARLY something right in front of me to jump to (this happens mostly in trees). It might just be a product of the more naturalistic, colonial environment (more uneven land, irregular structures, and junk sitting around on the ground) but whatever it is it's been sort of "off" for the last two games.

That's what I mean, the parkour needs a more precise and controlled gameplay, not just pushing the joystick.

LoyalACFan
05-25-2014, 08:32 AM
That's what I mean, the parkour needs a more precise and controlled gameplay, not just pushing the joystick.

Just pushing the joystick is fine if the character consistently does what you're trying to get them to do. This wasn't an issue in the first four games, despite the parkour controls being just as simple (you have to hold two buttons to run, sure, but once you're running all you have to do is steer). It's just that in the new system, the character is too prone to leap onto anything near them, especially items like chests and tree stumps.

Sushiglutton
05-25-2014, 09:03 AM
I just found out that WD has this crazy, futuristic almost, awesome feature: Difficulty Settings!

https://twitter.com/Design_Cave/status/469654989703376898



Just pushing the joystick is fine if the character consistently does what you're trying to get them to do. This wasn't an issue in the first four games, despite the parkour controls being just as simple (you have to hold two buttons to run, sure, but once you're running all you have to do is steer). It's just that in the new system, the character is too prone to leap onto anything near them, especially items like chests and tree stumps.

I mean they are connected. In AC3-4 they added a lot more objects that you can interact with, which is cool. Problem is you then need more control to differentiate between your moves, not less as AC3-4 has. When the stick is all you have and there are several possible things you want to do in a crertain direction, then there's gonna be a problem. No way around that.

I recently played some PoP2008 and that game has a reasonable level of interaction I think could work in AC (obv some of the moves are too stylished and AC needs some move 2008 lacks). Super forgiving timing, very smooth and easy ones you get it. But you actually feel like you are doing something which creates this link between the player and character on screen.

The parkour is the most important gameplay pillar imo as it is what differentiate AC from other franchises. I wish they pushed it in a more fun/interactive direction and then bring back the tombs. Then I won't miss PoP as much!

RinoTheBouncer
05-25-2014, 11:19 AM
I think it will be phenomenal. I hope it will focus on modern day conspiracies so it can compensate for the reductive trash they put in ACIV.