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View Full Version : Are We Too Old for Stealth Games?



STDlyMcStudpants
05-02-2014, 07:35 PM
The video it'self doesn't mention Assassin's Creed at all BUT oddly enough what they describe that they want is what assassins creed is....
This video makes great points of why Assassin's Creed shouldn't focus on stealth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1RB3b2cMpI
What do you guys think? :O

ze_topazio
05-02-2014, 07:43 PM
The older we are the more patient we become, at least in theory, so nobody is too old for stealth.

AC should focus on assassinations, something that has been relegated to a secondary thing since Brotherhood.

Kirokill
05-02-2014, 07:47 PM
Assassin: a person who murders an important person for political or religious reasons.
Assassinate: To murder suddenly or secretly for reasons.
Just joking.

It shouldn't focus too much on stealth, nor remove it. But give it as an approach rather than too much of forced or neglected.

STDlyMcStudpants
05-02-2014, 07:51 PM
The older we are the more patient we become, at least in theory, so nobody is too old for stealth.

AC should focus on assassinations, something that has been relegated to a secondary thing since Brotherhood.

Agreed that we become more patient as we get older...but is patience really what it takes for us to enjoy stealth?
My first ever stealth game was Manhunt 2.. I was 15 years old when I got this game..I never had the urge to rush.. I took my time..I planned things out...and never in the bit felt impatient...
Where I play Hitman Absolution last fall.. I'm 22 and halfway through the game I just started shooting my way through levels
I find myself more aggressive when I play now that I'm older...
Maybe it's less with patience, but more to do with valuing our time?
And yes focus on making assassination missions better!

Ureh
05-02-2014, 08:49 PM
Yeah I think AC1 and AC4 fit the bill.

AC1: Several ways to complete 99.9% of the objectives, no desync if you don't want to be stealthy, and no optional objectives.

AC4 did have optional objectives and a small handful of missions that require stealth. But most of them can be completed either stealthily or dynamically. And it felt like they were trying to make the stealth more fast-paced for players that wanted to be sneaky+aggressive (stalking zones, whistling in stalking zones, sprinting behind guards without rousing suspicion, blow pipe, rope dart, corner kills, smoke bombs, x-ray eagle vision, etc). Level layouts were usually small, linear, or both.

GunnerGalactico
05-02-2014, 09:00 PM
Agreed that we become more patient as we get older...but is patience really what it takes for us to enjoy stealth?
My first ever stealth game was Manhunt 2.. I was 15 years old when I got this game..I never had the urge to rush.. I took my time..I planned things out...and never in the bit felt impatient...
Where I play Hitman Absolution last fall.. I'm 22 and halfway through the game I just started shooting my way through levels
I find myself more aggressive when I play now that I'm older...
Maybe it's less with patience, but more to do with valuing our time?
And yes focus on making assassination missions better!

I totally get what you're saying. Sometimes when I play games like Uncharted, AC or the Batman Arkham series from the first chapter or sequence... I find myself playing stealthily and cautiously to avoid being detected by the guards ( probably due to nerves on my first play through ). As I progress into the game, the less cautious I get, I don't even care if I get spotted by the guards anymore... I just go on a killing rampage and play aggressively. Sometimes I do take the stealthy approach depending on the mission sequences. I still don't feel that they should remove stealth entirely from games, but rather make it a secondary option.

Ureh
05-02-2014, 09:13 PM
@GunnerGalatico I do get a bit more reckless on subsequent playthroughs probably cause I'm more familiar with the game. Also I could be bored or tired cause stealth requires a bit more of my attention (one of the reasons why I've been cutting down my play time to 1-2 hrs after the first play). Sometimes we just want to see the explosions and blood splattered all over the walls. It might also have to do with the character lvling up... getting better gear and maneuvers.

GunnerGalactico
05-02-2014, 09:26 PM
@GunnerGalatico I do get a bit more reckless on subsequent playthroughs probably cause I'm more familiar with the game. Also I could be bored or tired cause stealth requires a bit more of my attention (one of the reasons why I've been cutting down my play time to 1-2 hrs after the first play). Sometimes we just want to see the explosions and blood splattered all over the walls. It might also have to do with the character lvling up... getting better gear and maneuvers.

I also try to cut down my play time because stealth can be very time consuming but I still enjoy it. Sometimes I just want finish the entire mission... I don't want to spend more than 2 hrs on one sequence.
Sometimes I also get a little carried away when I acquire new weapons or skills. :p

SixKeys
05-02-2014, 09:33 PM
I don't think the problem necessarily lies within stealth itself or the player's age, but rather with the fact that the more we play games, the more we begin to recognize certain patterns. When I first played AC1, I was afraid to even walk at a normal pace because the idea of social stealth was so new to me. As soon as that little eye icon turned red, I went into "blend" mode. Now, 6 games later, I know the AI is still too dumb to react like real human beings, so I don't care so much about immersion. My eyes have been trained to recognize breadcrumb paths that the level designers have laid out for the best freerunning experience. Ergo, if a path looks like it's specially designed for freerunning, I know it's bound to be relatively free of guards, because freerunning and stealth are two systems that would clash with each other. I simply know more about how game design works than I did when I first started playing the series. I know the flaws of the AI, I know some exploits I didn't use to know, I'm so used to the parkour controls I could do it in my sleep. A new player doesn't have all this prior knowledge. They might take more time getting through a plantation raid because they have no idea how predictable the AI can be. They don't know their way around all the controls and weapons yet, so they make sure to plan every step of the way, whereas I know how to improvise on the run. It's not a question of age, but training yourself to be a better gamer and learning to recognize recurring elements of game design. Inevitably you begin to anticipate how to approach every situation, because you've already done some version of it before.

GunnerGalactico
05-02-2014, 09:40 PM
I don't think the problem necessarily lies within stealth itself or the player's age, but rather with the fact that the more we play games, the more we begin to recognize certain patterns. When I first played AC1, I was afraid to even walk at a normal pace because the idea of social stealth was so new to me. As soon as that little eye icon turned red, I went into "blend" mode. Now, 6 games later, I know the AI is still too dumb to react like real human beings, so I don't care so much about immersion. My eyes have been trained to recognize breadcrumb paths that the level designers have laid out for the best freerunning experience. Ergo, if a path looks like it's specially designed for freerunning, I know it's bound to be relatively free of guards, because freerunning and stealth are two systems that would clash with each other. I simply know more about how game design works than I did when I first started playing the series. I know the flaws of the AI, I know some exploits I didn't use to know, I'm so used to the parkour controls I could do it in my sleep. A new player doesn't have all this prior knowledge. They might take more time getting through a plantation raid because they have no idea how predictable the AI can be. They don't know their way around all the controls and weapons yet, so they make sure to plan every step of the way, whereas I know how to improvise on the run. It's not a question of age, but training yourself to be a better gamer and learning to recognize recurring elements of game design. Inevitably you begin to anticipate how to approach every situation, because you've already done some version of it before.

With regards to AC in general, I completely agree with this.

STDlyMcStudpants
05-02-2014, 10:17 PM
I don't think the problem necessarily lies within stealth itself or the player's age, but rather with the fact that the more we play games, the more we begin to recognize certain patterns. When I first played AC1, I was afraid to even walk at a normal pace because the idea of social stealth was so new to me. As soon as that little eye icon turned red, I went into "blend" mode. Now, 6 games later, I know the AI is still too dumb to react like real human beings, so I don't care so much about immersion. My eyes have been trained to recognize breadcrumb paths that the level designers have laid out for the best freerunning experience. Ergo, if a path looks like it's specially designed for freerunning, I know it's bound to be relatively free of guards, because freerunning and stealth are two systems that would clash with each other. I simply know more about how game design works than I did when I first started playing the series. I know the flaws of the AI, I know some exploits I didn't use to know, I'm so used to the parkour controls I could do it in my sleep. A new player doesn't have all this prior knowledge. They might take more time getting through a plantation raid because they have no idea how predictable the AI can be. They don't know their way around all the controls and weapons yet, so they make sure to plan every step of the way, whereas I know how to improvise on the run. It's not a question of age, but training yourself to be a better gamer and learning to recognize recurring elements of game design. Inevitably you begin to anticipate how to approach every situation, because you've already done some version of it before.

Yeah, its kind of a bummer that free running paths are breadcrumbed.... I started noticing it in AC3 myself mostly because i spent most of my time in the frontier... a world where you can tell every tree and rock was placed individually..it was a shame too see this carry over to the cities in AC IV..
I dont remember them being so obvious in the ezio trilogy or AC1 though....
But yeah AC1 was a terrifying experience.... even ACR was (at least for me) because it was my first AC... i wanted to avoid guards at all cost....
In fact I think I played every ac cautiously except toward the end of AC3 and the entirety of AC IV.. AC 4 was the first ac game where i was numb to everything....

Sushiglutton
05-02-2014, 10:46 PM
Stealth games do require a longer attention span. Unfortunately a lot of the things we do (constantly checking smartphones, switching between various TV shows while similtaniously tweeting, playing some types of twitchy videogames etc etc) can damage our attention span and make it harder to concentrate. I refuse to believe that 22 is too old for stealth games :D

AherasSTRG
05-03-2014, 12:45 AM
Never too old to sneak!

DumbGamerTag94
05-03-2014, 12:57 AM
Yeah, its kind of a bummer that free running paths are breadcrumbed.... I started noticing it in AC3 myself mostly because i spent most of my time in the frontier... a world where you can tell every tree and rock was placed individually..it was a shame too see this carry over to the cities in AC IV..
I dont remember them being so obvious in the ezio trilogy or AC1 though....
But yeah AC1 was a terrifying experience.... even ACR was (at least for me) because it was my first AC... i wanted to avoid guards at all cost....
In fact I think I played every ac cautiously except toward the end of AC3 and the entirety of AC IV.. AC 4 was the first ac game where i was numb to everything....

The paths have always been fairly obvious throughout the series. AC1 the roofs are all even(for the most part), and whenever you reach a dead end at the end of a row of houses there would be a very clear path like a random wooden platform held up by a crane leading to the next row of houses, and if there was a roof that was higher up than where you were running there was clear places to go like a set of baskets or something that was clearly there like a staircase practically

Ezio's games were worst of all IMO they added the paths to the sides of buildings, random lattice and posts with nothing on them sticking out of sides of buildings in patterns that made no aesthetic sense whatsoever all you had to do was run up a random abandoned doctors stand or something onto these nonsensical jungle gyms and just hold down the movement buttons until you had practically been auto piloted all the way across the city, or up to or down from a roof. Which the roofs were wayyy to easy again in AC2 also nearly all of the roofs were level again like AC1. That was fixed and made more difficult in Brotherhood and Revelations though.

AC3 and 4 in my opinion made the paths more aesthetically appealing at least. While the paths were still fairly clear to a seasoned player(and I don't think they ever wont be clear because we are just so used to seeing these patterns) they at least made sense, tree branches, nothing really that much of an eyesore there its plausible and sensible, and in cities the parkour on sides of buildings was improved from random lattice and posts with nothing on them that we saw in AC2 and ACB, it was transformed into signs for businesses and pubs, scaffolds for painters or construction, awnings, balconies, it made far more sense to look at than just decorative lattice that made no sense for a person to put on their houses that way. They also made it less auto piloty by adding things like the swinging hooks and signs on corners that could either aid you around a turn, or carry you off in the wrong direction, causing you to think about where you were parkouring to.

While I agree it is wayyyyy too easy for seasoned players to pick out obvious parkour paths, that just comes from experience. But in my opinion Ubi has at least gotten much better at disguising and them and making them look more natural and sensible in the environment, even if they are pretty easy to discover if you know what to look for.

SixKeys
05-03-2014, 02:11 AM
While I agree it is wayyyyy too easy for seasoned players to pick out obvious parkour paths, that just comes from experience. But in my opinion Ubi has at least gotten much better at disguising and them and making them look more natural and sensible in the environment, even if they are pretty easy to discover if you know what to look for.

IMO the paths in AC4 were most easily distinguishable. They had lots of markers like there just happened to be a tree right next to a guard tower, and then a sloping log leading down from the platform. Most noticeable on some of the plantations and story missions, like the Dutchman's mansion. I didn't mind that they made the paths so obvious, but in previous games they seemed to be more subtle about it.

STDlyMcStudpants
05-03-2014, 05:02 AM
Stealth games do require a longer attention span. Unfortunately a lot of the things we do (constantly checking smartphones, switching between various TV shows while similtaniously tweeting, playing some types of twitchy videogames etc etc) can damage our attention span and make it harder to concentrate. I refuse to believe that 22 is too old for stealth games :D

I think you just cracked the code.. it isnt our patience thats the problem.. its our attention span!