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View Full Version : Good article aboutwhat makes good stealth gameplay (and a bit specifically about AC)



GunnarGunderson
04-26-2014, 05:45 PM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-23-stealth-vs-stealth

Bit of a long read. Personally, I really think AC needs to refocus on stealth

cawatrooper9
04-26-2014, 05:54 PM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-23-stealth-vs-stealth

Bit of a long read. Personally, I really think AC needs to refocus on stealth

I'd agree with them to an extent- not in the context of stealth, but parkour. Even the AC2 Tomb missions often felt too laid out, too easy to figure out the pattern.

As far as stealth goes in AC4, let me be the most unoriginal person in the world, and make two points:
1) There needs to be a bigger penalty for breaking stealth- maybe not always desynchronization, but it's likely that this all boils down to the combat being way too easy.
2) We're six main titles in already, and lack the ability to crouch (outside of stalking zones).

That being said, I do like that the AC games give the player a pretty good degree of freedom of choice, whether they wanted to be stealthy or ballsy- it just seems that stealth is almost never favored.

Wolfmeister1010
04-26-2014, 05:58 PM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-23-stealth-vs-stealth

Bit of a long read. Personally, I really think AC needs to refocus on stealth

Hm, good read! I believe that environmental stealth is on the right track in AC. Now they just need to tweak the AI a bit, and add a crouching system to allow hiding behind ore objects in the world. In Watch Dogs, there is a dynamic contextual crouching that occurs whenever there are enemies that will attack you if they spot you, whether you are in a fort or not. Although I would prefer a manual crouching system, this would be better than nothing. The real stealth aspect that needs revising is social stealth. Perhaps you would automatically crouch when enemies are looking forward, but when entering a crowded area, you would stand upright and the stealth aspect would switch to social.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-26-2014, 06:28 PM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-23-stealth-vs-stealth

Bit of a long read. Personally, I really think AC needs to refocus on stealth
No. I don't buy assassins creed to play a stealth game.... it has never at its core been a stealth game and it never should... assassins creed needs to focus on being an assassins creed game... we dont need more mechanics...just enhance those already in place... all we need are new worlds and new stories..the series is fine how it is.
Stealth is sooooo boring and isn't fun at all.
As much as i love AC the series would lose me as a buyer if every mission was like a hitman game or even if the level design continues to be like AC4s
And it will lose many of its casuals too....
Hitman Absolution sold 3.6 million games with a 43% completion rate
Thief debuts in the UK at #1 but it's numbers havent released yet..but only has about a 17% completion rate compared to AC4s 36% completion rate
What does this really mean?
It means that the only people that buy stealth games are people that enjoy them......
Absolution sells poorly but has a very high completion rate......
Thief sales are unknown right now but the 17% clearly tells you that people gave it a try based on hype..didnt finsh it..will probably not buy the next game and it will flop
AC4 sells amazingly and has an above average completion rate...meaning casuals enjoyed the gameplay enough to finish its fun and fast paced gameplay more so than they did trying out a relaunch of a stealth game that they really didnt know what to expect from...

Moral of the story.... a stealth based AC will kill sales and ultimately kill the series

Shahkulu101
04-26-2014, 06:39 PM
"We don't need more mechanics"

Goodbye world. It's been a long run and the road hasn't been without it's pleasures, but there are simply too many idiots in this world.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-26-2014, 06:42 PM
"We don't need more mechanics"

Goodbye world. It's been a long run and the road hasn't been without it's pleasures, but there are simply too many idiots in this world.
Youre a very shallow gamer if you think more mechanics vs improved mechanics makes a better game

cawatrooper9
04-26-2014, 06:51 PM
I'd agree that AC isn't necessarily a stealth game, but one of my favorite features in the series was the Leonardo's Machines missions in ACB. Has there been anything like that since then?

STDlyMcStudpants
04-26-2014, 06:54 PM
I'd agree that AC isn't necessarily a stealth game, but one of my favorite features in the series was the Leonardo's Machines missions in ACB. Has there been anything like that since then?
Coincidentally in all of AC these are the most frustrating missions for me and were the least fun to complete..... (however i did appreciate them because they broke the flow and were different)
AC 4 was basically these missions without the desync...

Sushiglutton
04-26-2014, 07:17 PM
Great read thanks for posting!

I'm a fairly casual stealth gamer myself. Overall I would say I prefer action games, even though I enjoy both and I have started to like stealth more and more. To me the important features of a stealth game are:


Super clear and consistent rules: This is why Mark Of the Ninja is my favourite stealth game of all times. You always know exactly what effect your actions will have on enemies. In AC3 patroling enemies could not hear you running. However if you ran behind guards that were placed in a fixed position they would insta-detect you. This is a disaster imo, thankfully AC4 fixed this! However AC4 has other inconcistencies. For example when you hang from a roof normal guards patrooling it are not able to spot you, but sharpshooters can. Not good!


Distinct controls: Stealth is fragile. When you are caught it either leads to failure, shattered immersion or at very least to some negative feelings. It's vital that the game does not let you down by murky controls. Unfortunately the city parkour is not up to scratch imo. It's simply too fiddly since the assaassin magnets to to every single object and all you control is the direction. If you hold the stick five degrees wrong it can lead to failure. That's too fragile.

I think the AC4 devs realized this which is why they moved the majority of the stealth out on the countryside. On the plantations, with their focus on stalking zones, you do not have to fight the parkour system. Here the controls work perfectly fine.


Fairly easy to get back to stealth after being spotted: Again I think AC4 had the right ideas. The hive mind was gone and replaced with the bell mechanic. This means that most of the time you can get back to stealth rather quickly when you mess up. This is something I as a casual stealth player really like! When you spend ten fifteen minutes on a stealth sequnece, make a misstake and then all hell breaks lose, it really kills the fun for me. I don't need that level of punishment. The "you have been spotted" sound/music is enough to tell me that I screwed up.


Combat and stealth are unrelated, both very important: I refuse to accept the idea that combat should be designed to incentivize stealth by being either very dull (MGS4, AC1) or really hard (old Thief I suppose?). The only focus the combat designers should have (at least in AC) is to make it as fun as possible in its own right (something it fails miserably at atm btw lol). To me melee combat is the most fun type of gameplay. I def want it to have a big role in AC. I love the mixture of stealth and action many modern games provide (FarCry 3, AC4, TLOU etc). Going from bombastic naval battles to slow and sneaky plantation raids it's awesome! AC:Unity won't have naval to rely on so it has to vastly improve the combat to create the proper mix!!!

cawatrooper9
04-26-2014, 07:39 PM
Combat and stealth are unrelated, both very important: I refuse to accept the idea that combat should be designed to incentivize stealth by being either very dull (MGS4, AC1) or really hard (old Thief I suppose?)

I think Dishonored did a really good job of making stealth and combat pretty equally tantalizing options. If you're unfamiliar with the game, it's basically this- combat is tough, but certainly not unbeatable. However, stealth is incentivized, as open conflict leads to considerably more enemies, as well as an increase in enemy difficulty.
It's been a while since I played the game, but I vaguely remember there being a bell-type mechanic there as well, though I'm not sure if there was also a hive-mind type element.

Wolfmeister1010
04-26-2014, 07:55 PM
"We don't need more mechanics"

Goodbye world. It's been a long run and the road hasn't been without it's pleasures, but there are simply too many idiots in this world.

Here take this gun. I'll kill you and you kill me

Shahkulu101
04-26-2014, 07:55 PM
Here take this gun. I'll kill you and you kill me

Where have I heard that before, Hitler.

Wolfmeister1010
04-26-2014, 07:56 PM
Youre a very shallow gamer if you think more mechanics vs improved mechanics makes a better game

You are a shallow gamer if you believe that stealth shouldn't be focused on in AC, a game that is supposed to be a stealth action game.

Pirates and explosions were fun, but now it is time to really get back to the series' roots.

Wolfmeister1010
04-26-2014, 07:58 PM
Where have I heard that before, Hitler.

Didn't they take pills? Damn it..I want to be original..okay how bout we play super assassin tower defenz 3000 for a few minutes?

Shahkulu101
04-26-2014, 08:00 PM
Didn't they take pills? Damn it..I want to be original..okay how bout we play super assassin tower defenz 3000 for a few minutes?

I want to die painlessly you monster. also i think they did take pills idk

Sushiglutton
04-26-2014, 08:12 PM
I think Dishonored did a really good job of making stealth and combat pretty equally tantalizing options. If you're unfamiliar with the game, it's basically this- combat is tough, but certainly not unbeatable. However, stealth is incentivized, as open conflict leads to considerably more enemies, as well as an increase in enemy difficulty.
It's been a while since I played the game, but I vaguely remember there being a bell-type mechanic there as well, though I'm not sure if there was also a hive-mind type element.

I did play it, but I didn't finish it (plan to return some day :) ). I remember combat being fairly difficult, but I didn't have that many upgrades. Was combat enjoyable in its own right once you got further into the game?

cawatrooper9
04-26-2014, 08:39 PM
I did play it, but I didn't finish it (plan to return some day :) ). I remember combat being fairly difficult, but I didn't have that many upgrades. Was combat enjoyable in its own right once you got further into the game?

Yeah, for the most part. You could collect a pretty wide variety of upgrades and abilities, and you could tailor your character to your playstyle, so it was definitely possible to make a character that could be extremely effective in combat (or stealth).

GunnerGalactico
04-26-2014, 08:59 PM
No. I don't buy assassins creed to play a stealth game.... it has never at its core been a stealth game and it never should.
Stealth is sooooo boring and isn't fun at all.

* To some extent, stealth has been a staple part of the AC series. In the first AC. Not necessarily hidden in the shadows but just being discreet... you were supposed feel like a blade in the crowd, hidden in plain site. Unfortunately, I didn't get the same feeling from the other AC games that followed.

* Stealth is not boring at all. That's what makes a game tense, gripping but crazily entertaining. If AC did not incorporate stealth into the gameplay, it will just be like GTA in my opinion. Not all action games have to be fast-paced with guns and explosions like an action flick.

GunnarGunderson
04-26-2014, 09:13 PM
Let me just lay out a solution that should make everyone happy

Specialization, sort of like SC BL (but much more polarized). By default combat is incredibly unforgiving, but action players can use armour and weapons to stand a chance but stealth would be impossible with all the metal hanging from the assassin and clanking about. Stealth players would need to forgo all weapons (except the hidden blades and throwing knives) and armor in order to stay undected. Combat would be more limited and there would be a bigger emphasis on containing situations quickly if you do get spotted

GunnerGalactico
04-26-2014, 09:27 PM
Let me just lay out a solution that should make everyone happy

Specialization, sort of like SC BL (but much more polarized). By default combat is incredibly unforgiving, but action players can use armour and weapons to stand a chance but stealth would be impossible with all the metal hanging from the assassin and clanking about. Stealth players would need to forgo all weapons (except the hidden blades and throwing knives) and armor in order to stay undected. Combat would be more limited and there would be a bigger emphasis on containing situations quickly if you do get spotted

The games do give us that option in a manner of speaking. We can choose whatever weapons we want to use at our disposal, it doesn't necessarily affect the stealth aspect of the gameplay.
We also have the option of fight or flight, we can choose to engage in combat or escape the guards... depending on the mission. Sometimes the mission constraints are a pain in my opinion.

Sushiglutton
04-26-2014, 09:35 PM
Yeah, for the most part. You could collect a pretty wide variety of upgrades and abilities, and you could tailor your character to your playstyle, so it was definitely possible to make a character that could be extremely effective in combat (or stealth).

I remember watching some pretty crazy video of someone killing a bunch of guards in one streak with several different techniques :).



Let me just lay out a solution that should make everyone happy

Specialization, sort of like SC BL (but much more polarized). By default combat is incredibly unforgiving, but action players can use armour and weapons to stand a chance but stealth would be impossible with all the metal hanging from the assassin and clanking about. Stealth players would need to forgo all weapons (except the hidden blades and throwing knives) and armor in order to stay undected. Combat would be more limited and there would be a bigger emphasis on containing situations quickly if you do get spotted

This is not ok at all, sorry. I want to vary between stealth and combat. Obviously noone wants to run around in some clumsy and noisy armor, that would destroy the game.

I think the difficulty (like discussed in the article) should be adjusted by:

a) Lots of customization for visual feedback/HUD (like in Thief). As an example the tagging could be turned off.
b) Health parameter (easy, normal, hard).
c) Tougher archetypes, more enemies, nastier patrol routes (this would require the devs to create several mission layouts, which may not be feasible).

STDlyMcStudpants
04-26-2014, 09:38 PM
You are a shallow gamer if you believe that stealth shouldn't be focused on in AC, a game that is supposed to be a stealth action game.

Pirates and explosions were fun, but now it is time to really get back to the series' roots.

Stealth has never in history been a rule of an assassin. Assassins and ninjas are NOT the same thing. An assassin kills for political and religious reasons.... THATS IT.. nothing more..nothing less
Maybe you havent been paying attention to the story...
The objective isnt kill all of these people without being seen just because...
AC isnt supposed to be anything but what it is....
A game about taking on political and religious figures

Wolfmeister1010
04-26-2014, 10:37 PM
Stealth has never in history been a rule of an assassin.

"Hide in plain sight"-main tenant of the Assassin's creed.

Just don't bother to even respond. There is absolutely nothing you can say in rebuttal to this.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-26-2014, 11:28 PM
"Hide in plain sight"-main tenant of the Assassin's creed.

Just don't bother to even respond. There is absolutely nothing you can say in rebuttal to this.
Hide in plain sight, oh you mean like ducking and hiding in shadows and bushes?
-_-
NO it means to blend in with the FOREGROUND not the background.
Sneaking (stealth) and blending (social stealth) are not the same thing

Wolfmeister1010
04-26-2014, 11:52 PM
Hide in plain sight, oh you mean like ducking and hiding in shadows and bushes?
-_-
NO it means to blend in with the FOREGROUND not the background.
Sneaking (stealth) and blending (social stealth) are not the same thing

stealth is stealth sweetheart. You can divide it into sects all you want but it is still stealth.

I-Like-Pie45
04-26-2014, 11:56 PM
Right is right!

Wolfmeister1010
04-27-2014, 12:03 AM
Right is right!

meow

STDlyMcStudpants
04-27-2014, 04:08 AM
stealth is stealth sweetheart. You can divide it into sects all you want but it is still stealth.
No. You can't throw it all in a box.
Thats like if Connor spoke itallian and you're like "language is language"
Stealth and social stealth are not the same thing just like itallian language and native american language are not the same thing.
One is foreground... one is background...
Background stealth needs to go completely...im over it.

I-Like-Pie45
04-27-2014, 04:11 AM
meow

meow meow meow?

Sushiglutton
04-27-2014, 09:30 AM
No. You can't throw it all in a box.
Thats like if Connor spoke itallian and you're like "language is language"
Stealth and social stealth are not the same thing just like itallian language and native american language are not the same thing.
One is foreground... one is background...
Background stealth needs to go completely...im over it.


Lol this makes no sense. You kee repeating "they are not the same thing" but that's not really relevant to the question of if they belong to the same category or not.

Salmon and tuna are not the same, but they are both fishes.
Italian and Mohawk are not the same, but they are both languages.
Line of sight stealth and social stealth are not the same, but they are both stealth.


Removing what you refer to as "Background stealth" would be a completely ridiculous decision as that is the only (non naval) gameplay system that works fine atm.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-28-2014, 05:55 AM
Lol this makes no sense. You kee repeating "they are not the same thing" but that's not really relevant to the question of if they belong to the same category or not.

Salmon and tuna are not the same, but they are both fishes.
Italian and Mohawk are not the same, but they are both languages.
Line of sight stealth and social stealth are not the same, but they are both stealth.


Removing what you refer to as "Background stealth" would be a completely ridiculous decision as that is the only (non naval) gameplay system that works fine atm.
Who gives a **** about category... people want sneaky stealth because the think thats what an assassin is...IT ISNT
This is about defining characters....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
asĚsasĚsin
əˈsasin/Submit
noun
1.
a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons.

ninĚja
ˈninjə/Submit
noun
1.
a person skilled in ninjutsu.

ninĚjutĚsu
ninˈjo͝otso͞o/
noun
1.
The traditional Japanese art of stealth, camouflage, and sabotage, developed in feudal times for espionage and now practiced as a martial art.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is sneaky stealth vs social stealth.
Why should all assassins from various parts of the world practice ninjutsu?
This isn't anime.....
This isn't Capcom......
EVERYONE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT KILLS DONT HAVE KATANAS AND NUN CHUCKS
Sneaking stealth is boring..it will kill sales and the series.
Who likes to spend 20 hours doing a mission you could run through instead in 2 min...
Aint nobody got time for that
I dont know why people cry for it every year.
'I like to be bored out of my mind and killed instantly if i dont play like a ninja, and while we're at at it make me a ninja, futal japan is so kewl' - 99% of AC fanboys

The ONLY people that have a clue about what makes this series great are the casuals and the newcomers..the people experiencing the game for the first time ever....
Because they come in without biased....

You know what those people are saying?
Assassins Creed - Boring
Assassins Creed 2 - Awesome Everything
Assassin's Creed 3 - Awesome setting, boring character and story
Assassin's Creed 4 - Ship battles are awesome , missions are repetitive

People want a well known setting...a charismatic protagonist.... a fantastic story.... variety.....and a brutally fun good time
THEY DONT WANT STEALTH
They dont want mechanics
They dont want crafting
They dont want hunting
They dont care about the crap you do....
And reality is - THEY keep the series alive....new comers always are what keeps brands alive... not the loyalists.... not the people that insist everything is wrong because it's too casual of an experience....
When a series starts catering to what the loyalists wants..thats when its on death row..
Thats when it scares away new buyers...
Gamers are and have always been too selfish wanting to claim something for themselves that they dont care if it dies in the process.
I get it..you want to brag about how good you are at AC to your friends and it aggravates you that they are good at it too...
So you want that barrier higher..
You want tougher AI...
You want the game to ask patience of you....
You want to close the flood gates and stamp your name on it...
If you REALLY love the series, accept it for what it is....there are stealth games out there...go buy one...assassins creed isnt one of them

Sushiglutton
04-28-2014, 09:15 AM
^^ Wow nice rant :)! I don't hold the extremist views about stealth you seem to think (I'm not AssassinHMS). Please read my post on the first page of this thread!

Concerning your other point about social stealth being more popular than sneaky one, I think you are completely wrong. One of the most consistent criticism towards AC4 has been that there are too many eavesdropping/tailing missions, which is the only social stealth content in the game! I have not seen the same criticism towards sneaky stealth, on the contrary people seem quite happy with it.

Some people like the concept of social stealth (as do I). Very few like the execution.

Sneaky stealth has been one of the main ingredients since AC1. It's also an important part of games like FarCry 3, Metal Gear Solid and The Last of Us. I have no idea why you would think that this style of gameplay lacks mainstream appeal.

Shahkulu101
04-28-2014, 09:52 AM
^^ Wow nice rant :)! I don't hold the extremist views about stealth you seem to think (I'm not AssassinHMS). Please read my post on the first page of this thread!

Concerning your other point about social stealth being more popular than sneaky one, I think you are completely wrong. One of the most consistent criticism towards AC4 has been that there are too many eavesdropping/tailing missions, which is the only social stealth content in the game! I have not seen the same criticism towards sneaky stealth, on the contrary people seem quite happy with it.

Some people like the concept of social stealth (as do I). Very few like the execution.

Sneaky stealth has been one of the main ingredients since AC1. It's also an important part of games like FarCry 3, Metal Gear Solid and The Last of Us. I have no idea why you would think that this style of gameplay lacks mainstream appeal.

Especially important to note Metal Gear Solid. If people don't want sneaky stealth why is Metal Gear Solid one of the most successful video game franchises out there, with universally positive critical acclaim? Why did people eat up and even defend an hour-long $30 prologue? Because they loved the gameplay.

EDIT: Oh and yes, people enjoyed stalking zones (background stealth) more so than social stealth I believe. I remember a fair few reviews which cited stalking zones as an improvement over unreliable, inconsistent crowd A.I. And I'm pretty sure Assassins would feel background stealth is far more appropriate to a gung-ho combat approach, so If social stealth is unavailable - for example we have plantations, forts - background stealth is necessary.

Dev_Anj
04-28-2014, 11:33 AM
No. I don't buy assassins creed to play a stealth game.... it has never at its core been a stealth game and it never should... assassins creed needs to focus on being an assassins creed game... we dont need more mechanics...just enhance those already in place... all we need are new worlds and new stories..the series is fine how it is.


So, what makes an Assassin's Creed game an Assassin's Creed game? Just the freerunning and the dumb combat system? And the mission design in pretty much every Assassin's Creed game has been bad.

Also, the series needs to improve a LOT since it has so many flaws... sales are another thing entirely.

shobhit7777777
04-28-2014, 12:04 PM
I hate AC3 so much that when I'm on chat roulette my line of questioning goes like this:

1. Like AC3?
2. ASL?

Dev_Anj
04-28-2014, 12:27 PM
What is ASL?

GunnerGalactico
04-28-2014, 12:37 PM
Oh and yes, people enjoyed stalking zones (background stealth) more so than social stealth I believe. I remember a fair few reviews which cited stalking zones as an improvement over unreliable, inconsistent crowd A.I. And I'm pretty sure Assassins would feel background stealth is far more appropriate to a gung-ho combat approach, so If social stealth is unavailable - for example we have plantations, forts - background stealth is necessary.


So, what makes an Assassin's Creed game an Assassin's Creed game? Just the freerunning and the dumb combat system?

Completely agree with this. Nobody is saying that Assassins are ninjas and that they have to hide in the shadows. If people wanted to play games with that type of stealth... they can play Tenchu Z or Ninja Gaiden. In AC, background stealth is necessary... when the Assassins kill their target, they can't exactly just walk out in the open... they have to keep a low profile and remain undetected. And not to mention, that's when the notoriety system comes into play. It is very exhilarating when you have to hide and sneak away from the guards. It is because of that, that is why I love playing AC in the first place.

In my opinion, if it was that easy to just kill someone and fight your way through the guards... it would be boring.


I hate AC3 so much that when I'm on chat roulette my line of questioning goes like this:

1. Like AC3?
2. ASL?

The story and the character in AC3 were good ( I liked all the protagonists in AC anyway ;) )
But the mission designs and structures were awful.

shobhit7777777
04-28-2014, 02:41 PM
What is ASL?

Hohoho! You have much to learn bro. ;)
Google it




The story and the character in AC3 were good ( I liked all the protagonists in AC anyway ;) )
But the mission designs and structures were awful.

Yeah...yeah...yeah...Still hate it.

If AC3 were a person I'd break ALL my rules and shoot it dead.

Mr.GoodKall
04-28-2014, 06:04 PM
everyone has a different meaning of what "stealth" is. Stealth during the day is not the same as stealth at night.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-28-2014, 06:50 PM
^^ Wow nice rant :)! I don't hold the extremist views about stealth you seem to think (I'm not AssassinHMS). Please read my post on the first page of this thread!

Concerning your other point about social stealth being more popular than sneaky one, I think you are completely wrong. One of the most consistent criticism towards AC4 has been that there are too many eavesdropping/tailing missions, which is the only social stealth content in the game! I have not seen the same criticism towards sneaky stealth, on the contrary people seem quite happy with it.

Some people like the concept of social stealth (as do I). Very few like the execution.

Sneaky stealth has been one of the main ingredients since AC1. It's also an important part of games like FarCry 3, Metal Gear Solid and The Last of Us. I have no idea why you would think that this style of gameplay lacks mainstream appeal.

Thats because ease dropping and tailing were highlighted...the problem wasn't that we were ease dropping and tailing the whole time...the problem is that it felt like the exact same mission every time...
What assassins Creed 4 did wrong with these missions is exactly what AC1 did wrong with them....they felt repetitive..too much the same...you were going from bush to group of people over and over...almost as if the exact same code was copied and pasted only changing the skins and voices of who you were tailing.....you were reminded of what you were doing breaking immersion...it didnt feel organic
What The Ezio trillogy did right and what AC1 sometimes did right is put these missions into a social setting such as a party..a town meeting....an event.... it wasn't about following someone trying to hear what they say all of the time....
It was about stalking them just inches away...distracting guards... blending with crowd in an alive setting...
I remember tailing being a very rare thing in the Ezio trillogy and in AC3....and if there was tailing it was interesting.... ACB had the best tailing missions to date..because they didn't feel like all you were doing was staying in a circle for 10 hours...


Especially important to note Metal Gear Solid. If people don't want sneaky stealth why is Metal Gear Solid one of the most successful video game franchises out there, with universally positive critical acclaim? Why did people eat up and even defend an hour-long $30 prologue? Because they loved the gameplay.

EDIT: Oh and yes, people enjoyed stalking zones (background stealth) more so than social stealth I believe. I remember a fair few reviews which cited stalking zones as an improvement over unreliable, inconsistent crowd A.I. And I'm pretty sure Assassins would feel background stealth is far more appropriate to a gung-ho combat approach, so If social stealth is unavailable - for example we have plantations, forts - background stealth is necessary.
Yet Assassins Creed sells more than MGS... ;)
But, I'm not at all saying stealth will make the game bad or that stealth games are bad.... there are great stealth games.. i love sly cooper and splinter cell blacklist...I'm saying that stealth would kill the series... and heavily reduce its budget...

I made it a point earlier with sales and completion rate....
The only people that buy stealth based games are people that enjoy stealth.....
Hitman Absolution sells poorly has high completion rate
Thief appears to be selling well has a low completion rate
Assassins Creed IV sells great has an average completion rate

People only take chances on casual games and hyped up new or relaunched ips.... and the numbers will tell you that the stealth based thief game bored the majority of buyers with only a 17% completion rate...as they were sold on hype and didnt really know what to expect..
If assassins creed becomes a stealth heavy game..its sales will drop to 5-6 mil
Which will reduce its budget and ultimately its quality..
Theres no denying it...

Shahkulu101
04-28-2014, 07:25 PM
We don't want a stealth heavy game. All we would like is for the stealth that is currently in the game to be improved and enhanced AND new mechanics such as crouching because for background stealth that should be pretty much mandatory. The stealth in place currently is a joke. Not only is it mind-numbingly easy, the A.I is bereft of any sophistication what-so-ever - on a technical level (although we all no that's not the reason) the deficiencies of the A.I are embarrassing. Sprint directly in front of a guard? It's a-okay, the magic bush will keep you safe from harm! There has to be more options, more satisfying approaches - an enjoyable, dynamic stealth system. Not necessarily a difficuilt one.

And we don't want the big bad stealth monster to consume combat either - both options should be completely viable for all approaches. Just remember, it is always in the best interests of the Assassin to stay hidden. If mission design leans towards background or social stealth, then so be it - as long as it's possible. Many prefer that to linear, prescriptive paths bloated with hapless enemies.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-28-2014, 07:35 PM
We don't want a stealth heavy game. All we would like is for the stealth that is currently in the game to be improved and enhanced AND new mechanics such as crouching because for background stealth that should be pretty much mandatory. The stealth in place currently is a joke. Not only is it mind-numbingly easy, the A.I is bereft of any sophistication what-so-ever - on a technical level (although we all no that's not the reason) the deficiencies of the A.I are embarrassing. Sprint directly in front of a guard? It's a-okay, the magic bush will keep you safe from harm! There has to be more options, more satisfying approaches - an enjoyable, dynamic stealth system. Not necessarily a difficuilt one.

And we don't want the big bad stealth monster to consume combat either - both options should be completely viable for all approaches. Just remember, it is always in the best interests of the Assassin to stay hidden. If mission design leans towards background or social stealth, then so be it - as long as it's possible. Many prefer that to linear, prescriptive paths bloated with hapless enemies.
I'm not really sure what i want added to AC...I wouldn't ever use crouch personally unless it was forced...
I'm trying to think why I loved Assassins Creed Revelations so much during free roam...a game with no stealth.....
Whatever they did so awesome in ACR...thats what i want again lol...
An ACR world... with AC3s combat and variety...sweet jesus

BATISTABUS
04-28-2014, 07:36 PM
Pirates and explosions were fun, but now it is time to really get back to the series' roots.
What do you consider to be the series' roots?

Shahkulu101
04-28-2014, 07:42 PM
What do you consider to be the series' roots?

The core elements -- Stealth, Combat, Navigation -- I presume.

BATISTABUS
04-28-2014, 07:53 PM
The core elements -- Stealth, Combat, Navigation -- I presume.
Right, but it seems like he's implying that these things are missing from AC4.

Shahkulu101
04-28-2014, 07:57 PM
Right, but it seems like he's implying that these things are missing from AC4.

Well they aren't improved by any measure - I think SHE means it would be best to have them be the main focus.

DumbGamerTag94
04-28-2014, 08:03 PM
In my opinion AC uses both Sneaking(for infiltration and tailing), and Social stealth(eavesdropping and assassinations) Here are my thoughts on the subject:

First add a crouch ability: Crouching would be very nice. Especially behind cover. It frustrates me so much on a tailing mission, or eavesdropping and the person I'm following suddenly stops and turns around and theres a barrel or low fence, or crate or something in front of me and I can't crouch behind it. Instead I have to backtrack to the nearest tall object to hide behind the guy looking at me the whole time(cuz that's not suspicious or anything) and him not stopping you or approaching you when that happens is fairly unrealistic and immersion breaking to me.

Crouch would also be very useful in any kind of break in/ infiltration mission, like the prison missions of AC3 and AC4, the Castillo mission in ACB, sneaking in to the Palace in ACR, Sneaking in to the Nassau fort in AC4, and several other missions I cant think of right now.

A great example of crouch used effectively in a game, both walking and behind cover is Mafia 2. In that game you can crouch and creep around in buildings so as not to alert security, and hide behind low cover it would be great for those infiltration missions and tailing. Heres a pic from that game with the main character crouching behind cover. Of course they wouldn't have a gun in AC we don't want it to be a cover based shooter but just the concept of hiding behind low objects is what I want. Maybe at most allow us to use a poison dart, or maybe fire a flintlock from behind cover(including peeking around wall corners as we already can).
http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/M/Mafia%202/Bulk%20Viewers/PC_360_PS3/2010-06-15/Mafia%20II%20-%20E3%202010_Shootout--article_image.jpg

Second, SLIGHTLY tougher AI: Now I don't want anything cripplingly difficult here, Its just that as things stand the enemies are so easy to take on you can fight 20 men and win without so much as a scratch with nothing but a sword. Its absurdly easy, even for the casual gamer, I still want the game to be fun but even the biggest casual game advocate can admit AC takes it too far.

All I'd like to see is make the AI and combat tough enough that you can still have the combat moments that people love so much about this series, but instead of being invincible make it so that you cant really take on more than 5 or 6 enemies at once without ending up dead. Theres no way 12 trained soldiers cant take out 1 man, even if they are an assassin. If the enemies were just a bit harder to deal with then after 6 guards/troops gang up on you, you may want to start finding an escape route rather than take your chances trying to fight all of them. It just encourages being a little more careful, but not to an extent that the game becomes very difficult, or boring by forcing you to be stealthy ALL THE TIME. Nobody got time for that, but this seems like a reasonable compromise IMO.

Tougher AI would also make the stupid desyncronizations unnecessary. I think every AC player desynchronizes 10000 times in every game the first time they play, but maybe only die 1 time from beginning to end. Personally I would rather I be able to take out a guard that has spotted me than have to restart the mission, and if I cant stop the guard in time then 4 or 5 of his buddies(or even more) can show up, then I can take my chances with fighting them, or die. I would much rather that.

I think this is doable by adding the slightly tougher AI and an alarm style system like the plantations in AC4, the alarm goes off you get surrounded by soldiers and killed, only time that it should be a desync is if it would have alerted your target to your presence, thus ruining your assassination. But as far as missions where I just have to break in and steal something(just let us fight our way to it if we get caught), or like the Assassin Headquarters of AC4(maybe just have an alternate cut scene where you got captured and brought to Ah Tabi instead of sneaking around only to realize they wouldn't have killed you anyway(and if you can do it without getting caught maybe we see a slightly different cut scene, and get an achievement).

I just hate unnecessary desynchronization.

Third Just add some more stuff to hide in if we are stalking, or running away: Outhouses, sheds, barns, stationary or moving wagons, etc. This coupled with the ability to crouch behind lower objects would make things nicer IMO, and give players more of an OPTION to do things in a stealthier way or not.

Anyway that's basically my only gripes if they made those 3 changes it would make everyone happy, and wouldn't alienate casual gamers.

Hans684
04-28-2014, 08:04 PM
Well they aren't improved by any measure - I think SHE means it would be best to have them be the main focus.

So nobles and party's then?

GunnerGalactico
04-28-2014, 08:12 PM
In my opinion AC uses both Sneaking(for infiltration and tailing), and Social stealth(eavesdropping and assassinations) Here are my thoughts on the subject:

First add a crouch ability: Crouching would be very nice. Especially behind cover. It frustrates me so much on a tailing mission, or eavesdropping and the person I'm following suddenly stops and turns around and theres a barrel or low fence, or crate or something in front of me and I can't crouch behind it. Instead I have to backtrack to the nearest tall object to hide behind the guy looking at me the whole time(cuz that's not suspicious or anything) and him not stopping you or approaching you when that happens is fairly unrealistic and immersion breaking to me.

Crouch would also be very useful in any kind of break in/ infiltration mission, like the prison missions of AC3 and AC4, the Castillo mission in ACB, sneaking in to the Palace in ACR, Sneaking in to the Nassau fort in AC4, and several other missions I cant think of right now.

A great example of crouch used effectively in a game, both walking and behind cover is Mafia 2. In that game you can crouch and creep around in buildings so as not to alert security, and hide behind low cover it would be great for those infiltration missions and tailing. Heres a pic from that game with the main character crouching behind cover. Of course they wouldn't have a gun in AC we don't want it to be a cover based shooter but just the concept of hiding behind low objects is what I want. Maybe at most allow us to use a poison dart, or maybe fire a flintlock from behind cover(including peeking around wall corners as we already can).
http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Games/M/Mafia%202/Bulk%20Viewers/PC_360_PS3/2010-06-15/Mafia%20II%20-%20E3%202010_Shootout--article_image.jpg

Second, SLIGHTLY tougher AI: Now I don't want anything cripplingly difficult here, Its just that as things stand the enemies are so easy to take on you can fight 20 men and win without so much as a scratch with nothing but a sword. Its absurdly easy, even for the casual gamer, I still want the game to be fun but even the biggest casual game advocate can admit AC takes it too far.

All I'd like to see is make the AI and combat tough enough that you can still have the combat moments that people love so much about this series, but instead of being invincible make it so that you cant really take on more than 5 or 6 enemies at once without ending up dead. Theres no way 12 trained soldiers cant take out 1 man, even if they are an assassin. If the enemies were just a bit harder to deal with then after 6 guards/troops gang up on you, you may want to start finding an escape route rather than take your chances trying to fight all of them. It just encourages being a little more careful, but not to an extent that the game becomes very difficult, or boring by forcing you to be stealthy ALL THE TIME. Nobody got time for that, but this seems like a reasonable compromise IMO.

Tougher AI would also make the stupid desyncronizations unnecessary. I think every AC player desynchronizes 10000 times in every game the first time they play, but maybe only die 1 time from beginning to end. Personally I would rather I be able to take out a guard that has spotted me than have to restart the mission, and if I cant stop the guard in time then 4 or 5 of his buddies(or even more) can show up, then I can take my chances with fighting them, or die. I would much rather that.

I think this is doable by adding the slightly tougher AI and an alarm style system like the plantations in AC4, the alarm goes off you get surrounded by soldiers and killed, only time that it should be a desync is if it would have alerted your target to your presence, thus ruining your assassination. But as far as missions where I just have to break in and steal something(just let us fight our way to it if we get caught), or like the Assassin Headquarters of AC4(maybe just have an alternate cut scene where you got captured and brought to Ah Tabi instead of sneaking around only to realize they wouldn't have killed you anyway(and if you can do it without getting caught maybe we see a slightly different cut scene, and get an achievement).

I just hate unnecessary desynchronization.

Third Just add some more stuff to hide in if we are stalking, or running away: Outhouses, sheds, barns, stationary or moving wagons, etc. This coupled with the ability to crouch behind lower objects would make things nicer IMO, and give players more of an OPTION to do things in a stealthier way or not.

Anyway that's basically my only gripes if they made those 3 changes it would make everyone happy, and wouldn't alienate casual gamers.

Always on point as usual ;)

Shahkulu101
04-28-2014, 08:18 PM
So nobles and party's then?

I don't know ask the person in question. I like the Open-world focus myself, just would like the core mechanics to be improved to the point where they're actually enjoyable. Otherwise what's the point in them being there?

Fatal-Feit
04-29-2014, 12:40 AM
The core elements -- Stealth, Combat, Navigation -- I presume.

The series have always been building and building on more and more core mechanics. Stealth, Combat, and Navigation are one of many core elements nowadays.

BATISTABUS
04-29-2014, 04:03 AM
Well they aren't improved by any measure
Well I would disagree entirely.


I think SHE
Excuse me - she.


it would be best to have them be the main focus.

If those aren't currently the main focus...what is? Honestly wondering.

AssassinHMS
04-29-2014, 05:26 AM
What makes an Assassin's Creed game?
Whatever Ubisoft wants, I'd say.
What is Assassin's Creed? An Assassin simulator, a fun and awesome franchise, a cash cow, a historical game, a fictitious story about percursor races, a tough guy with some sad tale who uses his Hulk-like powers to beat people up, a bunch of historical characters randomly thrown at the screen, a franchise that relies on numerous features to hide a weak core and to "revive" itself year after year, a nice yearly fix, etc.

I don't know for sure what AC is. I wanted to think it was an Assassin (with a capital "A") simulator, that was the original idea after all, but the games say otherwise.

Does an Assassin place stealth before combat? Can an Assassin defeat more than 3 or 4 enemies in a fair fight? Is social stealth the most important kind of stealth for an Assassin?


The following is my approach on Assassin's Creed. Assassins did exist, they didn't have super-strength or super-reflexes. They infiltrated the most dangerous places and they survived, not because they had the ability to defeat an army, but because they stayed hidden. Social stealth has limitations and, if there is no crowd to blend in, then the Assassin will be forced to use shadows or to move quietly in order to reach the target undetected.

How to improve social stealth? Make it more realistic. Rather than placing small crowds every corner, they could create few huge crowds in strategic locations, a labyrinth of people where the pursuers could easily and realistially lose sight of their target. In order to find these crowds, the player could follow the sound they would produce (laughter, music, etc.) while being chased. These could include big festivities outdoors or inside noticiable buildings tha the player could easily spot.
How can a walking tank hide in plain sight? Cloth acessories, available at the tailor, could realisticaly conceal weapons and armor and to prevent the player from carrying every weapon, a weight limit could be introduced.

How to improve combat? Again, more realism. Instead of making dumb enemies weaker than ants and who wait for the Assassin to finish off their friends, so that the player gets to feel overpowered, they could make fights balanced so that the player feels smart for overcoming the challenge and learning how to handle them (thinking beforehand, avoiding rushing in or trying to fight a battalion, using a smoke bomb, dispersing them and using both stealth and navigation in order to create smaller, separate groups that can be easily dealt with).

How to improve traditional stealth? Same answer, make it more realistic. Enemies can't be dumb or psychic. They need to act and react like real people. The sound of a small rock, the player just threw, hitting the floor should attract any nearby guard towards that spot creating a situation that the player can use to his advantage. Stepping in water puddles or on mettalic surfaces should make more noise than stepping on grass. Moving while crouched should make less noise than walking or running. A guard who finds a body should alert as many guards as he can and proceed to search actively for the player instead of claiming that it must have been his imagination and returning to his post a minute later with no fear for his safety.

A little realism enhances gameplay, prevents many immersion breaking moments and offers balance to the core gameplay preventing the existence of overpowered mechanics while also encouraging the player to use all the core mechanics together instead of separating them as competitors for the same prize, the player's attention.
Of course that this is the way I see Assassin's Creed which is closer to the Assassin simulator approach.
Then again, Assassin's Creed isn't an Assassin simulator, it could be in the future but, at the moment, it couldn't be more different.
Assassin's Creed could simply be a game about taking on political and religious figures like STDlyMcStudpants said or just a historical game as others claim.
At the end of the day, Assassin's Creed is a product made to sell. If Ubisoft thinks most gamers don't care much for stealth in general, then they might ditch it partially or completely and that will be Assassin's Creed at that moment.


I used to think a unique name/brand only suited that which held the original formula/idea mostly intact which is why I didn't consider recent AC games worthy of their name (since they only had a few remains of the original idea) but now I think differently.
As I've come to realize there is nothing behind the name "Assassin's Creed", nothing but the desire for money. As such, AC can be any concept as long as that concept is created with the purpose of selling and of pleasing the majority. So, it doesn't make sense to say that AC is this or that, that social stealth is more important or that it isn't a stealth game, AC is AC, whatever that is.





If AC3 were a person I'd break ALL my rules and shoot it dead.

I wouldn't blame you.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-29-2014, 03:57 PM
Whatever Ubisoft wants, I'd say.
What is Assassin's Creed? An Assassin simulator, a fun and awesome franchise, a cash cow, a historical game, a fictitious story about percursor races, a tough guy with some sad tale who uses his Hulk-like powers to beat people up, a bunch of historical characters randomly thrown at the screen, a franchise that relies on numerous features to hide a weak core and to "revive" itself year after year, a nice yearly fix, etc.

Something is successful and annualized... must be a cash cow -_-
NBA 2k Is a cash cow
Madden is a cash cow
WWE 2k is a cash cow
Call of Duty is a cash cow

Fifa and Assassins Creed improve every year...and assassins creed brings a fresh experience every year....
Milk is always the same... some times its chocolate...sometimes its strawberry... but its still the same ole milk
Assassins Creed deserves more respect..... It may not be the financial leader in yearly releases....but it's the content leader.....

AssassinHMS
04-29-2014, 06:47 PM
Something is successful and annualized... must be a cash cow -_-
NBA 2k Is a cash cow
Madden is a cash cow
WWE 2k is a cash cow
Call of Duty is a cash cow

Fifa and Assassins Creed improve every year...and assassins creed brings a fresh experience every year....
Milk is always the same... some times its chocolate...sometimes its strawberry... but its still the same ole milk
Assassins Creed deserves more respect..... It may not be the financial leader in yearly releases....but it's the content leader.....
I don't think AC is a cash cow. I also don't think it is an awesome franchise or an Assassin simulator.

I simply can't give a face to AC since, as I've found out through the years, AC wears the face that is more convinient at the time and the only thing I can say that will never change, that will always belong to AC (its trademark) is the desire for money. There is nothing else that it requires to be called AC. If the market demands, there will likely be a full present day AC (so History isn't AC's trademark). The core mechanics are what least identify AC at this point and it is clear that, if fans don't demand their development, Ubisoft will have no problem in ignoring them (eventually ditching them?). Does AC stand for the hood and the hidden blade? For Naval? Templars vs Assassins?

No, there is nothing that AC can't be. Everything fits under the name and there is no special treatment.


You think AC deserves more respect. Ok.

I just don't know what it means to respect ambition itself (desire for money). I can respect a person, an idea, an action...but respecting a word with nothing and no one behind it makes no sense to me.

STDlyMcStudpants
04-29-2014, 06:59 PM
I don't think AC is a cash cow. I also don't think it is an awesome franchise or an Assassin simulator.

I simply can't give a face to AC since, as I've found out through the years, AC wears the face that is more convinient at the time and the only thing I can say that will never change, that will always belong to AC (its trademark) is the desire for money. There is nothing else that it requires to be called AC. If the market demands, there will likely be a full present day AC (so History isn't AC's trademark). The core mechanics are what least identify AC at this point and it is clear that, if fans don't demand their development, Ubisoft will have no problem in ignoring them (eventually ditching them?). Does AC stand for the hood and the hidden blade? For Naval? Templars vs Assassins?

No, there is nothing that AC can't be. Everything fits under the name and there is no special treatment.


You think AC deserves more respect. Ok.

I just don't know what it means to respect ambition itself (desire for money). I can respect a person, an idea, an action...but respecting a word with nothing and no one behind it makes no sense to me.
Assassin's Creed has never claimed to be a simulator (at least i dont recall)
Infact.. the only games I would consider to be simulators Are Gran Turismo and..... well thats about it.
I can agree that the series started going the wrong way with the ezio trilogy...
I put AC 1, AC2, and AC3 to the side as real games that actually meant something.... and ACB, ACR and AC4 as a chash grab more so than labeling the entire series itself as a cash grab.
Im not putting down those 3 games in any way..I'm just saying.. ACB was a full priced DLC... ACR was a full priced handheld game.. and AC4 was a stumbling 'oh crap distract them while we extend the arc...'
That being said.... will unity be a cash grab? I honestly don't think so..I think with Unity the series will find ground again and it will sit with AC1, 2, and 3..as a game that means something that had its greatest intentions and efforts at heart... while AC Comet will be the cash grab AC4 DLC

I have faith that unity will stop the milking comments that are made everywhere..not just in these forums lol

And also History is the brand..history is their playground (comet is rumored to star a templar..so even the assassin itself isnt the brand)....we get a glimpse of modernday gameplay in every game....its uninspired..clearly the developers would never stand for creating a modern day only AC

Hans684
04-29-2014, 07:03 PM
Remember this AssassinHMS?




Because of this, I think this thread isn’t much more than a rant against people who are aggressive. And, since you made a thread “in my honor” about realism, I figured this was just another way to attack those who are radical to the point of saying what is right or wrong.

Again I just showed people what they looked like, did you enjoy it? Make a tread "in my honor" then about something that you want. You deserve to do it, find the best way to do it. You can also use attacks, passive aggressiveness, labels and satire. May the odds forever be in your favor.


I mean, I would more likely make a thread to show people what they look like (or what AC would look like) when they say “yes” to most things.

Do it.

I'm still waiting.

DumbGamerTag94
04-29-2014, 07:20 PM
I simply can't give a face to AC since, as I've found out through the years, AC wears the face that is more convinient at the time and the only thing I can say that will never change, that will always belong to AC (its trademark) is the desire for money. There is nothing else that it requires to be called AC. If the market demands, there will likely be a full present day AC (so History isn't AC's trademark). The core mechanics are what least identify AC at this point and it is clear that, if fans don't demand their development, Ubisoft will have no problem in ignoring them (eventually ditching them?). Does AC stand for the hood and the hidden blade? For Naval? Templars vs Assassins?

No, there is nothing that AC can't be. Everything fits under the name and there is no special treatment.


I really have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Assassins creed has had several things consistent throughout. AC has always been a story of assassins vs Templars, there has always been the hoods, the creed, hidden blades, and at its center it has always been a game involving climbing things and killing people. The basic premise has been the same every time and the story is connected.

Now if you're mad because one game is 40% naval, another is wilderness and hunting, another is about slinking around the holy lands in the crusades, another focused on te city life in Italy. That's because the game features many different characters and time periods.

People are different and times change, and the games reflect that. The game would be rather dull if every ancestor was the same. Just as everyone in your bloodline didn't have the same occupation or outlook on life. And I'm sure you also don't drive around a horse and buggy like your great great granddad either. Perhaps you don't even live in the same place or the same culture.

AC has always displayed the variety of culture, location, people, and the activities that go along with it. An Englishman in the 1700s carribean. Of course there's going to be naval as a consequence of the way of life at that time. Even if he were not a pirate it would have had to come into play at some point. A Native American in. 1770s, of course there is going to be hunting and wilderness and the war, that's what defines the period and the character. It goes on for the features of the other games

What you are *****ing about is that every game doesn't feel exactly the same but it's not supposed to. You are reliving lives of DIFFERENT people in DIFFERENT times and you are going to have to experience the DIFFERENT aspects of those people and thier lifestyle,culture,etc. the differences are a result of the fact that the game covers different periods and places and if that's what you don't like then I'm sorry to tell you that's what the game is about n if you don't like it you just shouldn't buy it because it's clearly not for you.

Every game has had the interconnecting story and several common features and icons. But they are a bond that ties the whole thing together. Differences is what AC is. You simply can't capture history without it, simply because not everyone at all times in history did exactly the same things