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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:31 PM
From today's Sunday Telegraph (UK) -
Vienna council shifts Luftwaffe hero from plot of honour to pauper's grave
By Clare Chapman in Vienna
(Filed: 13/07/2003)


The ashes of a daredevil Luftwaffe pilot who shot down more than 250 Allied planes in the Second World War are to be exhumed from a grave of honour in Vienna after the council stripped him of his status as a war hero.

The campaign to remove Major Walter Nowotny's remains from the city's Central Cemetery and move them to a pauper's plot has been led by the grandson of a British RAF pilot who was shot down over Belgium in 1940 and died of his injuries.

David Ellensohn, a Vienna city councillor whose maternal grandfather was RAF acting pilot officer James Gillespie, successfully argued that Major Nowotny - the first fighter pilot in history to bring down 250 enemy aircraft - had been serving the Third Reich and did not deserve his heroic status.

"He was not fighting for this country, for Austria, he was fighting for the Third Reich," said Mr Ellensohn, a Green Party councillor. "If they had won the war, there would be no Austria as such. Therefore, we should not be forced to give special credit to this man."

Major Nowotny, who had shot down 258 enemy aircraft by the time of his death, aged 24, had been awarded the Third Reich's highest military honour, the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, by Hitler himself.

When the major died in 1944 when his fighter crashed in flames, his ashes were buried with his medals in his home town, Vienna, alongside Austrian resistance fighters and Beethoven, Schubert, Johann Strauss and Brahms.

Mr Ellensohn asked: "What did he do that earned him a place alongside those who really earned their places in the cemetery, such as resistance fighters Rosa Jochmann and Paul Speiser?

"He was placed in that section of the graveyard by the Nazis, not by the city of Vienna, and although it has taken 59 years for the city to recognise that he does not deserve to be there, we are pleased that action is finally being taken."

The council's decision has been denounced as "cultural barbarianism" by Johann Herzog, a councillor for the opposition Freedom Party (FP), which has launched an appeal.

Opposition councillors argue that relocating the major's ashes would contravene the war graves welfare law, from 1948, that says war graves - regardless of the nationality of their occupant - must remain undisturbed.

Mr Herzog said: "The necessity to dishonour Nowotny's grave, and therefore his person, almost 60 years after his death, is evidence of a distorted understanding of history and moreover a lack of deference for a fallen soldier. And that's all he was - a soldier.

"He was not a member of the National Socialist Party and he certainly was not a war criminal. If he were, I could understand the removal of his status. In fact, he was respected not just by his own side but by RAF pilots as well."

Sascha Gasthuber, of the far-Right Germania group, said protesters carrying flaming torches to show their contempt for the vote would march against the council's decision. "Nowotny gave his life to make sure the future was worth living in for us and our children. We cannot sit back and let them dishonour his memory like this."

Mr Ellensohn, however, insisted that the plan to move the grave away from the cemetery's section for heroes was perfectly justified. "As far as I am aware, there is no rule in Catholicism that says a grave cannot be moved, not like in Judaism," he said.

Major Nowotny, who joined up when he was 19 following the invasion of Poland, was renowned even among Allied pilots and during the summer of 1943 became a virtual one-man air force in the skies over the Eastern Front. In June 1943 he shot down 41 aircraft, 10 in one day. He crashed on November 8 1944 and was buried with his medals a few days later.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:31 PM
From today's Sunday Telegraph (UK) -
Vienna council shifts Luftwaffe hero from plot of honour to pauper's grave
By Clare Chapman in Vienna
(Filed: 13/07/2003)


The ashes of a daredevil Luftwaffe pilot who shot down more than 250 Allied planes in the Second World War are to be exhumed from a grave of honour in Vienna after the council stripped him of his status as a war hero.

The campaign to remove Major Walter Nowotny's remains from the city's Central Cemetery and move them to a pauper's plot has been led by the grandson of a British RAF pilot who was shot down over Belgium in 1940 and died of his injuries.

David Ellensohn, a Vienna city councillor whose maternal grandfather was RAF acting pilot officer James Gillespie, successfully argued that Major Nowotny - the first fighter pilot in history to bring down 250 enemy aircraft - had been serving the Third Reich and did not deserve his heroic status.

"He was not fighting for this country, for Austria, he was fighting for the Third Reich," said Mr Ellensohn, a Green Party councillor. "If they had won the war, there would be no Austria as such. Therefore, we should not be forced to give special credit to this man."

Major Nowotny, who had shot down 258 enemy aircraft by the time of his death, aged 24, had been awarded the Third Reich's highest military honour, the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds, by Hitler himself.

When the major died in 1944 when his fighter crashed in flames, his ashes were buried with his medals in his home town, Vienna, alongside Austrian resistance fighters and Beethoven, Schubert, Johann Strauss and Brahms.

Mr Ellensohn asked: "What did he do that earned him a place alongside those who really earned their places in the cemetery, such as resistance fighters Rosa Jochmann and Paul Speiser?

"He was placed in that section of the graveyard by the Nazis, not by the city of Vienna, and although it has taken 59 years for the city to recognise that he does not deserve to be there, we are pleased that action is finally being taken."

The council's decision has been denounced as "cultural barbarianism" by Johann Herzog, a councillor for the opposition Freedom Party (FP), which has launched an appeal.

Opposition councillors argue that relocating the major's ashes would contravene the war graves welfare law, from 1948, that says war graves - regardless of the nationality of their occupant - must remain undisturbed.

Mr Herzog said: "The necessity to dishonour Nowotny's grave, and therefore his person, almost 60 years after his death, is evidence of a distorted understanding of history and moreover a lack of deference for a fallen soldier. And that's all he was - a soldier.

"He was not a member of the National Socialist Party and he certainly was not a war criminal. If he were, I could understand the removal of his status. In fact, he was respected not just by his own side but by RAF pilots as well."

Sascha Gasthuber, of the far-Right Germania group, said protesters carrying flaming torches to show their contempt for the vote would march against the council's decision. "Nowotny gave his life to make sure the future was worth living in for us and our children. We cannot sit back and let them dishonour his memory like this."

Mr Ellensohn, however, insisted that the plan to move the grave away from the cemetery's section for heroes was perfectly justified. "As far as I am aware, there is no rule in Catholicism that says a grave cannot be moved, not like in Judaism," he said.

Major Nowotny, who joined up when he was 19 following the invasion of Poland, was renowned even among Allied pilots and during the summer of 1943 became a virtual one-man air force in the skies over the Eastern Front. In June 1943 he shot down 41 aircraft, 10 in one day. He crashed on November 8 1944 and was buried with his medals a few days later.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:41 PM
Utter bollocks if you ask me. He fought for his country (he LIVED in Germany AFAIK!) and he fought brave and hard. He knew the war was lost, but he kept on fighting, not for the nazi scumbags at the top, but for his friends and family and the families of others. He deserves a hero's grave just as much as any other allied pilot. If this were to concern Hans Ulrich Rudel, who was a convinced nazi, it would've been different.

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:43 PM
Bah, disgusting


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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:44 PM
Well put, Red_Storm. I concure.

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:47 PM
I'm inclined to agree. Nowotny was no nazi: he did his duty with a skill and dedication that makes him a figure of historic stature. This seems like a regrettable bit of fallout from the political tension in Austria in relation to their experience of the war.

I'd be interested in the views of any Austrian Board
members.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:48 PM
Let me get this straight.

They are going to dig up Walter Nowotny's grave, 60 years after his burial.

Then they are going to move his remains somewhere else to a "paupers grave"?

And what, exactly, is this supposed to accomplish other than making the Vienna city council look like an enormous collection of asses?

Do city councillors have nothing better to do?


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:50 PM
Lame.





Message Edited on 07/13/0302:11PM by sdreyer

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 02:50 PM
I'm utterly disgusted. History cannot be changed no matter what some people think!

S! Simon.
<center>


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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:06 PM
Red_Storm wrote:
- Utter bollocks if you ask me. He fought for his
- country (he LIVED in Germany AFAIK!)

From what I can gather from the web, he was born and raised in Austria, e.g.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pilots_day/W_Nowotny.html

But the relationship between Austria and Germany in 1939 was a complicated and rather murky affair, and I fear this is art of an attempt to airbrush this period of Austria's history.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:18 PM
Utter crap and nonsense. A clear cut case of non-optimal thinking. Only the real Nazis would've done something like this.



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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:30 PM
This is nonsense, I say this as an Austrian. *shakes head*

http://www.bmlv.gv.at/images/flagge.gif


http://www.metalforum-austria.net/vbb/attachment.php?s=&postid=15243

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:32 PM
Fought for his country ? Maybe...but why didn`t he do it on the part of the Resistance in Germany/Austria then ?

I think we as a community are biased in treating those LW aces. We admire their TECHNICAL SKILLS in flying a/c and - perhaps unintentionally - are inclined to assume this made them better people too.

Well, it did not. At best, they might have been fooled by a maniac - like most of the German nation. This might exuse them but not earn a hero status. Apart from their skills, they were mostly narrow-minded individuals, who would not see beyond "Befehl".

Stauffenberg and his likes were heroes and I don`t think they should be buried alongside guys like Nowotny just because the latter one was fluent in operating a machine called aircraft. Even if I admire him as a pilot.

Do not get me wrong - I don`t think they should clear Nowotny`s remains out of cementary but he should have an ordinary grave because that`s what he ws - ordinary man and soldier with exceptional skills.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:48 PM
I disagree Michcich. He did what he was told to do, as all soldiers in the war from both sides. I don't understand your thinking. You mean if he was allied he would be a hero but now not? Every side in all the wars has it's heros. And he was one for the Nazis you like it or not. Nazis had an ideology, even if it doesn't seem right. After all who tells you that the Democracy is the only right ideology to born heros that fight for it? As the world progresses everything changes, but we can't restrict the past just because we don't like it.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:54 PM
CA_OuTcAsT wrote:
- I disagree Michcich. He did what he was told to do,
- as all soldiers in the war from both sides. I don't
- understand your thinking. You mean if he was allied
- he would be a hero but now not? Every side in all
- the wars has it's heros. And he was one for the
- Nazis you like it or not. Nazis had an ideology,
- even if it doesn't seem right. After all who tells
- you that the Democracy is the only right ideology to
- born heros that fight for it? As the world
- progresses everything changes, but we can't restrict
- the past just because we don't like it.
-
-

Very true. The Stalin regime was just as bad as Hitler's, but the winners write the history books. In those days it was hard to actually see what was the "right" side and what was the "wrong" (evil) side to fight on. Nowotny did his duty as a soldier and should be commended. He was an ace among aces.

<center>
---------------------------------------
"Atleast I'll go down in style!"
http://www.elleemmeshop.com/model1/aero/re4341.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 03:58 PM
Hi all,

I am disgusted to hear this. I feel so strongly about it that I have e-mailed the Burgermeister of Vienna.

I would suggest you all do the same. The e-mail address is:

buergermeister@magwien.gv.at

Although I am English, I lived in Austria and Germany for 20 years. This is not right and we must do something to stop it happening.

EuroLord

p.s. To the people on this forum who have condemned Nowotny and other German/Austrian heroes of the war, I say this. You were not there in 1939 - 45 so you have no right at all to judge these men. They did what they thought was right and they had the courage to stand up and fight. They are brave men who stood up for what they thought was right. I have no time for people who have never been through what Nowotny experienced, yet they condemn him.

Furthermore, I knew many soldiers who fought on the Eastern front in WW2 and they all say one thing - Stauffenburg was a traitor. Personally,and speaking as a Brit, I can see both sides - He was a brave man doing what he thought was right, but my German friends felt (even 60 years later) that he was a traitor to his country.

To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

Message Edited on 07/13/03 04:07PM by EuroLord_Ito

Message Edited on 07/13/0304:17PM by EuroLord_Ito

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:01 PM
You`re right outcast - every soldier carries out orders and it takes a HERO to disobey at some point rather than carry out criminal orders. Or support criminal regime.

Of course every side in the conflict has their heroes - but ultimately they will be judged from the point of view of the cause they fought for - that`s why some of them cease to be regarded as heroes as the world progresses...

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:13 PM
oh, c`mon redstorm, carrying out "duties" as a soldier is not regarded as a either merit or excuse at least since Nuremberg trial...

For most of German high-ranking officers the "duty" was exactly what did not allow them to join Stauffenberg and resistance. Thus they missed their chance to become heroes.

It took a blind man to carry out duties til the end - just lke Nowotn

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:24 PM
Nowotny is nothing but DIRT, literally.

So...who knows what kind of dirt is in the flowerbed.
Maybe some real bad-a$$ caveman is fertilizing my tulips.

Honors are for the living, not the dead. I've never heard of a dead man thanking anyone for accolades and honors... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

So...Nowotny could care less about so-called honors they're worthless to him now. The evil is not letting the dead R.I.P.

------------------ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:29 PM
Didn't many allied bomberpilots get medals for bombing cities with civilians?
Did those bomberpilots get a soldiers funeral?

It was 60 years ago. Let it be.

Thinking like that would mean we would have to dig up most of our kings and queens and flush em down the toilet.

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:32 PM
Don't you just love people who use the past to get PC points? It's sad really. People with 20/20 hindsight who weren't even born back then tend to think in black and white and be overly judgemental without getting all the facts.

I have two grandfathers (both dead now) and both served on opposit sides of the war. One German and the other American. Both of them agreed that neither side came out of that war smelling of roses.

It simply amazes me that the power of WWII propaganda still controls the minds of those who can't think for themselves.

Common sense will tell you that the losing side will not have the oportunitey to show their side of the conflict although the Nurenburg Trials did provide some embearasment for the allies (which they didn't intend obviousely). Unfortunately THE DEAD can't defend themselves. How convenient for the PC revisionists!

I was born a German citizen in 1962. (I am a naturalized American and a Veteran now) but had I been born there in the 30's and defended my Family / Town / Country, I guess I would have been an evil Nazi? Makes me wonder what will happen to my ashes 200 years from now. This is why I want my ashes spread over the Texas Hill Country that I love and call home.

These people have no respect for the dead and the past IMO. This screwed up PC world that we live in makes me sick to my stomach.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:35 PM
Michcich_303, you make no sense what so ever.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:39 PM
What a bunch of "#&"#(¤. Nowotny was a soldier, he was killed in action. Would he be an allied soldier he would be a hero. A soldier is a soldier regardless of his regime. 60 years has passed, it's now history and let it be history.

Account of Nowotny's last flight:

Galland: "Several bombers were called out as shot down, and Nowotny radioed that he was approaching. The flight leader on the ground, Hans Dortenmann, requested permission to take off to assist, but Nowotny said no, to wait. The defensive anti-aircraft battery opened fire on a few Mustangs that approached the field, but they were chased away, from what I could understand, and the jets were coming in. One Me-262 had been shot down (note: piloted by Franz Schall), and Nowotny reported one of his engines was damaged. He was flying on the right engine alone, which made him vulnerable. I stepped outside to watch his approach to the field, when an enemy fighter pulled (Nowotny's slayer) away not far from us."

At that very same moment Lt. RW. Stevens of the 364 FG which was patrolling the area, caught-up with a Me 262-flown by Nowotny who was returning to Hesepe. He knew the jet was approaching the field, and would shortly be in the Flak-alley. He swiftly closed in due to the Nowotny speed loss from the engine failure. When in the gun-range he opened fire. He recorded some hits on the jet, but sensing all that flak is just waiting for him to come in to range, he decide that he would be satisfied with a Me 262 - damaged. He put his trusty Mustang in a shallow dive to gain speed and he immediately went back to seek cover in those low hanging clouds. Meanwhile Major Nowotny was fighting a lost battle. His Me 262 was partly paralyzed from the engine loss, and he made one last radio transmission. Last words of Nowotny heard over the radio were: "I´m burning! My god, my god! I´m burning!". Then his fighter rolled and stalled-probably on the port side. His altitude was low, so when hitting the ground he briefly bounced back in the air losing one of the engines, and upon hitting the ground his Me 262 furiously exploded.

Galland: "I heard the sound of a jet engine, and we saw this 262 coming down through the light clouds at low altitude, rolling slightly and then hitting the ground. The explosions rocked the air, and only a column of black smoke rose from behind the trees. We took off in a car and reached the wreckage, and it was Nowotny's plane. After sifting through the wreckage, the only salvageable things found were his left hand and pieces of his Diamonds decoration."

The crash site at Epe (2.5 km east of Hesepe) is littered with the remains of the Meserschmitt scattered in an wide area. A local remembers that a engine was lying on the road beside the crash site. A small memorial was erected near the ¨grave¨ of this exceptional pilot. R. Stevens reported having chased and damaged a Me 262 at Epe.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:41 PM
Michcich_303 wrote:
- You`re right outcast - every soldier carries out
- orders and it takes a HERO to disobey at some point
- rather than carry out criminal orders. Or support
- criminal regime.


I'm utterly disgusted by such narrow mindness, whether of city council of Viena or our forum members supporting such idiotic decision. Michcich do you think Pokryshkin or Kozhedub should be deprived of all honours and their graves profaned because they served Stalin's regime? Were they murderers because Stalin was a mass murderer?



Michcich_303 wrote:
- oh, c`mon redstorm, carrying out "duties" as a
- soldier is not regarded as a either merit or excuse
- at least since Nuremberg trial...
-
- For most of German high-ranking officers the "duty"
- was exactly what did not allow them to join
- Stauffenberg and resistance. Thus they missed their
- chance to become heroes.
-
- It took a blind man to carry out duties til the end
- - just lke Nowotn


Is that so? How about the bomber crews that firebombed cities with no military significance, just for terorizing civilians? Is Enola Gay crew listed as war criminals? These were real mass murderers who took no effort in contesting criminal orders made by their superiors. What war crime did Novotny do? He was a outstanding soldier and deserves repect.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:44 PM
This is just plain sick !
That poor man and his family .
He did his job , served his country ,(like all heros) and now he's dead .
Leave the dead alone .
What is this going to accomplish ?
Vienna needs an enema !

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:47 PM
This, first thing I've read this morning, leaves me with a profound feeling of sadness.
I hope the decidion to disinterr him is reversed.
S!
Chris



http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 04:51 PM
GonzoX wrote:
-
- I was born a German citizen in 1962. (I am a
- naturalized American and a Veteran now) but had I
- been born there in the 30's and defended my Family /
- Town / Country, I guess I would have been an evil
- Nazi? Makes me wonder what will happen to my ashes
- 200 years from now. This is why I want my ashes
- spread over the Texas Hill Country that I love and
- call home.
-
- These people have no respect for the dead and the
- past IMO. This screwed up PC world that we live in
- makes me sick to my stomach.


I completely agree with you. Those political corectness zealots and their deeds are already in the patological side of the human nature. I wonder what will they come up with next time.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:13 PM
As always, people should put themselves in anothers shoes in debates/situations like these. Put yourself in Hitler's shoes and, of course, Nowotny is a hero. Put yourself in Ellensohn's shoes, and of course, you should be able to appreciate his conviction.

-

Myself, as a person of Indian/Mexican decent, and 'my family' is from the area now known as Texas, of the USofA, I can assure you there are 'Texas heros' that I could very well see as criminals and murderers. About these 'heros', I could, with justifiable validity, argue that I am right, if I chose to push that 'idea'.

-

We all can have our own opinions about the Nowotny 'situation'. Some will be more valid and/or sincere than others.

However, I, for one, can not argue about this unless Nowotny's ghost came and talked to me personally. Maybe some of you should take the same stance.

If that occurred, though, my main question to him would be... did he really know what he was fighting for? After all, THAT should be the main question here, IMO.

-

Concerning 'this situation', and which pair of shoes I would rather stand in and agrue from, if I chose to do so, well, that is an easy one.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:21 PM
Though I think Michcich is wrong, I believe his position is worth consideration. The question is more fraught with ethical difficulty than most here would acknowledge. How SHOULD Germany respond, as a society, to those who fought, died and killed in the defence and service of that country, and simultaneously in defence of one of the most odious regimes the world has ever produced? And this question is made even more difficult by Nowotny being not German, but Austrian.

The rise of the far Right in Austria is a worrying phenomenon, and my guess is that the laudable battle against it lies behind this action. Nonetheless, it will probably be self defeating by whipping up a controversy which will provide the far Right with a platform.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:22 PM
people can be really stupid sometimes.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:51 PM
That`s what I expected - flaming and confusion.
You guys are now going to add million things I have never said.

I am not blaming Nowotny for doing what he did. I do not suggest he was a war criminal or nazi. I am simply saying that carrying the orders does not turn you into a HERO. It takes a lot more contribution to become one. If Nowotny was a hero for his nation, that`s because the propaganda turned him into one. If you ask me if he deserves a place in history alongside all those persecuted and murdered Resistance members I`ll say: NO.

Is this a good reason to dig up his remains now ? Dunno - we may better let the dead be the dead and stop opening wounds after 60 yrs. This is, though, completely different rationale...

Euro, if some of your German aquintances still regard Stauffenberg a traitor that`s narrow-mindedness - I can only hope with the young generation it`s completely different.

And no, I`m not setting out on a trip around the world now to dig up remains of all those false heroes. Slowly but surely their deeds will be presented in proper light - and that`s enough.

P.S. I was not suggesting either that the Allies only did the "Glory" during WWII. But ask yourself: Would you like Germany to win in WWII ? This is the difference

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:51 PM
Thats just plain crap.

This David Ellensohn, seems to just be upset all of a sudden. Seems like he's lookin for a bit of attention from his family and media if you ask me!

He has no buisness getting involved with something like this cause he was never a part of that war, seems he dosnt understand what it was about. This guys grandfather died in 1940 not by getting shot down but from injuries? Seems like he died well before things even got interesting.

I know this may be a bit to mean, but i would really like to see this guy get the livin &*it kicked out of him.

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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:52 PM
-Didn't many allied bomberpilots get medals for bombing
-cities with civilians?
-Did those bomberpilots get a soldiers funeral?



I was just interested in why allied bomber crews are always brought into this. Never do you hear mention of the German pilots who took part in the "blitz". The allied bomber crews were finishing what the GERMANS started.
People argue that they were taking it out on civilians, what about the civilians from Coventry,Liverpool,London,Bristol,Manchester??
I have also seen a news report about German civilians brutally murdering a shot down B-17 crew. The civilians' city had been attacked the previous night by Lancs and thought they would get their own back on the American crew who were flying onto another city.
Hitler had ranted at civilian masses to attack downed aircrews as revenge and they went along with it.
Also don't forget that if the majority of Germans hadn't wanted Hitler there in the first place then the whole ruddy mess wouldn't of started. I watched a documentary tonight about Dresden, and was took aback when a lady who had survived the terrible firestorm said that "there were so many bodies, how could they do this to us?"

It asks the ultimate question about the Jews. How could an entire nation be swept up into thinking they were so much superior to other races that to exterminate other lives is OK.



The German fighter pilot deserves to be left in peace.
Not because he was an ace, or a brilliant pilot, but because to dig him up like that would be so disrespectful to human life it doesnt bear thinking about.


I know some people will hate me for this reply, but it is only my oppinion. I am not anti german or anything of the sort, I do however, get frustrated when blame is put on allied bomber crews.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 05:58 PM
OMG in what world we live in.They won`t give peace even to a dead man nowadays!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

He was a soldier who fought for his country,<u>whatever</u> it was.IMO that fact gives him the glory.

I`m sure Walter Nowotny knew where he came from and he didn`t fight just for 3rd Reich.


The decision is IMO immoral.It`s sad ppl like those are at power nowadays./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

R.I.P Major Walter Nowotny S!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 06:18 PM
thanks mikey and RealKill for at least trying to get more into this complicated issue rather than discard it with "Befehl ist Befehl" type of gloryfying attitude.

Vengeanze, I tend to agree - LET IT BE.
But pls don`t call him a hero - as he was not one - and compared to those who are buried alongside him, he was not a hero double times.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 06:19 PM
It seems to me in the far lefts attempts to distance itself from the far right, it has again completed the circle. I am an American and this would be no different than if there were a grave of a russian soldier in my country being desecrated. As with Austria, we were on the same side as a tyrant. History will always be there. With the openness of the internet history can not be erased but it can make those who attempt to look like fools.

--NJG26_Killa--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 06:34 PM
I say anyone who had the balls to fight in combat is a hero. When you are in combat you are not thinking about the ideology of your leaders. The military is about duty and you have a duty to do the will of your commander and chief. When the military become a political force, that is the making of a dictatorship.

Vietnam was not a just war, we had no right to go there. But there were heros just the same. It makes me sick to think of all the people spitting on our soldiers coming back from Vietnam, spit on your leaders that sent your soldiers there.

Number three, people bring up the firebombing of german citys to show that everyones hands had blood on them. The scale of bombing was completely unnessecary at that point in the war, as was many things germans did, it goes both ways in war.

The majority of people were not Nazis in germany, if you read history completely it is easy to see. Germany was a people under extreme hardship in the 20s and 30s, it is pretty easy to understand why what happened did.

--NJG26_Killa--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 06:46 PM
The man fought and died for his country! That should be enough, it matters little which side it was. Nobody to have done so should have their grave desicrated for any reason. Anybody on a personal crusade to exhume and move graves from WWII will have a long job ahead of them. In war many things walk the line between right and wrong, and without ourselves actually being there we are in no postion to make any judgements. Just leave it be for Gods sake, he was a man who died let him rest in peace.

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:03 PM
EuroLord_Ito wrote:
.-
- p.s. To the people on this forum who have condemned
- Nowotny and other German/Austrian heroes of the war,
- I say this. You were not there in 1939 - 45 so you
- have no right at all to judge these men.

Sure we do. I'd define a deceased military hero as someone who fought and died for a noble cause. None of the Third Reich's war dead seem to qualify because- whichever way you cut it- they were fighting in aid of Hitler's military adventurism and to perpetuate a genocidal regime. Every bullet fired by a German soldier outside Germany was a crime because it was intended to help impose Nazism elsewhere. The 200 Russian lads killed by Nowotny were fighting for their very existence- to repel the invader of their homeland. Nowotny was fighting in the interests of a barbaric German Empire and the extermination of the Jews- whether he realised it or not.We shouldn't confuse 'heroism' with remarkable individual effort.

-They did what they thought was right and they had the courage to stand up and fight. They are brave men who stood up for what they thought was right. I have no time for people who have never been through what Nowotny- experienced, yet they condemn him.

A strange definition of heroism. We would have to include the Waffen SS and the members of the Einsatzgruppen if it were applied.
-
- Furthermore, I knew many soldiers who fought on the
- Eastern front in WW2 and they all say one thing -
- Stauffenburg was a traitor. Personally,and speaking
- as a Brit, I can see both sides - He was a brave man
- doing what he thought was right, but my German
- friends felt (even 60 years later) that he was a
- traitor to his country.

Speaking as a Brit I still find it quite chilling that so many German/Austrian vets are completely unreformed in their views of the war years. Journalist Max Hastings wrote in the Daily Mail only last week that he recently interviewed a Russian Front veteran in Germany and couldn't help but remark that the man seemed to have enjoyed the whole thing. "Ach, they were great days" replied the old soldier. "The two greatest times of my life were first in 1934, when I swore the oath that inducted me into the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (SS), and then in 1936... you've seen the films of the torchlight parades, the searchlights, the mass rallies- well I was there!"
Men like that were so much part of the criminal conspiracy of nationalists, Jew haters and adventurers that it's no wonder they still regard Stauffenburg as a traitor. He is, in reality, one of the very few German- speaking heros to have emerged from that period.
.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:11 PM
Revisionism at work.

Funny you never see the left-wingers saying the same thing about people who fought for Stalin, who murdered far more than Hitler could ever dream of.


Side note: anyone have details of how Nowotny crashed?

Plane problems? Shot down?

Interested to know..

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:14 PM
Hi Michcich,

The post war generation of Germans have no right to question what happened.

They have no right to question why their parents and grand-parents did what they did and for the simple reason that they were not there at the time. It is always easy with hindsight to say it was wrong - they should have done this or that. I wonder what they would have done themselves had they been alive in 1930's Germany.

Regarding Stauffenburg. Once again, what I have said above still applies. A German once asked me how I would have felt had an Englishman tried to assinate Churchill. I agreed, we would class him as a traitor and have him executed. Is there any difference because Hitler was the leader of germany?

Personally, I believe Stauffenburg was a hero in many ways. He was certainly no coward, but he was a traitor.

As I said before, it has nothing at all to do with narrow-mindedness, especially of the war generation. If anything it is the narrow-mindedness of German youth who were never even taught about World War 2 in their schools. It simply didnt happen, did it....

Just for info, I served with the British Army in the Falklands War, the first Gulf War, Bosnia and Northern Ireland. If they are going to allow things like this to happen in Austria, how long will it be until they start digging up British soldiers who died in these wars?????

It is stupid and very short-sighted.

EuroLord

p.s In Answer to Stewbie, Yes, I do class members of the Waffen SS in exactly the same way. Why shouldnt they be??? They were doing the same job as the normal German soldier. Why should they be classed any differently? Try reading the facts rather than the usual propaganda.

Stewbie, using your logic, that would make Queen Victoria a war criminal too because she sent british troops to many, many countries to take part in ruthless and very bloody wars just so that she could produce the British Empire. I'm sure there are plenty of other potential "British" war criminals out there something in british history, or is that different because they are British. Perhaps we should dig her up too...

To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.



Message Edited on 07/13/03 07:32PM by EuroLord_Ito

Message Edited on 07/13/0307:45PM by EuroLord_Ito

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:27 PM
It makes me sick to read all this.

Michich_303 You should be red in shame by your words...

What we can't understand is : what is your concept of "Hero" ?


Nowotny was not only a skilled aircraft handler ( an Airline pilot is also a skilled pilot and that doesn't make him a hero) . For YEARS, he had been in life/death situations and always emerged victorious in some way until the fatal crash, he taught and led many men, he proved his skills ( not only flying, but self-control, sense of responsibility and intelligence ) in an environment where death is sitting next to you.

He was not only an ordinary soldier, he is an Ace exactly because of that. Air Combat is a complex, refined science/art which demand all the skills above.



And you say he IS NOT a Hero



Major Pedro
www.jzg23.de (http://www.jzg23.de)

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:44 PM
To be honest sometimes i get the feeling some people here in Austria have a kind of weird point of view concerning the things that happened 60 years ago. Novotny died and was burried there. What i think is that it makes no sense moving him away from his grave. It seems like nowadays it is more important for some ppl here to fight for removing someone who was burried there after 60 years. Aren´t there any other things to worry about? I don´t care if he lies there or not, i wouldn´t mind too if he would have been buried somewhere else but for some ppl it seems soooooooooooooooo important. It took this guy 60 years to find out that Novotny has to be removed? I don´t want to argue if he was a hero or not. he was fighting on the wrong side but he was burried there so leave him there. It would be much more useful if this Ellensohn would fight against nowadays right wing party instead of worrying about someones grave but it seems to be a general tendency here at the moment. On the one hand we have those damn idiots who run around every may crying that we lost the war and stuff. on the other hand we have some ppl like this Ellensohn who have nothing else to do but make everyone who was a soldier a criminal. Both sides are just morons in my opinion. History is a strange thing in Austria and Germany believe me. Sometimes you are called a nazi if you´d say something like Novotny was a good pilot, which has nothing to do with germany or stuff like that, just a statement about someones abilities to fly, even if it is obvious that you are surely not even close to right orientated. Get my point? Same about the guy who wrote the book about the bombing raids against german towns who said that it wouldn´t have been necessary to bomb some towns without industry. he was called a nazi. that´s just insane. On the other side we have the problem that we are called nazis by other countries too whenever we do something wrong we are compared to the ppl living here 60 years ago. Just remember when we had sanctions 4 years ago cause we had a rightwing party joining the government. Believe me i was on the streets nearly every day to protest against this government but it was weird that other countries put sanctions against us and when you look at Italy for example who has a fascist government no one says anything. they even got EU leadership for 6 months. That partly explains the reason for Novotnys exhumation too. Not because anyone here would care if he´s there or not but to erase everything that reminds of that time and to make us politically clean and correct.

http://www.greenhearts.org/phpBB2/templates/subSilver/images/eagle.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:47 PM
JZG-Pedro wrote:

- And you say he IS NOT a Hero

I would not regard him as a hero because he was fighting, for one of the most evil regimes the world has ever seen. Wallenberg was a hero. Nowotny just increased the level of suffering in the world.

If he was a hero, then so is Darth Vader.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:50 PM
Euro,

I get your point. Of course we are having benefit of hindsight i.e. it is easier for us to judge things.

As to traitors, they called Marlene Dietrich traitor as well, didn`t they ? I remeber there was a dispute couple of yrs ago over plans to name a street in Berlin by her name. If you look at it from wider perspective (and not from that of an average German in WW2 era) - you will easily see difference between hero and traitor.

I know these are complicated issues and i`m not going to put b&w verdicts on these people but on the other hand some ppl here are just trying to muddy the waters by saying each side had blood on their hands etc...

On the Stalin and USSR heroes - surely there is great imbalance in judging russian and german regime coming from the fact that USSR was among winners. As a Pole (and, imagine, not naturalized but living in Poland http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) I can tell you that Red Army soldiers are not treated as liberators or heroes here, despite all the courage, skill and effort they showed at Stalingrad and other battlefields. They brought us another regime, although much less oppressive one.

And lastly - would you allow Hitler, Stalin or the like be buried in the Hall of Glory - there are cases when "LET IT BE" just does not work, although Nowotny surely does not fall into that category

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 07:54 PM
Rocketdog,

Grow up!!!

Havent you realised that Darth Vadar was only a film character. Hate to say this, but Darth Vadars empire doesnt really exist.

There is no comparision. I'm not surprised you dont feel Novotny was a hero especially if you are comparing him with Darth Vadar.

Is that the best comparision you could find???

EuroLord





To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 08:00 PM
- I would not regard him as a hero because he was
- fighting, for one of the most evil regimes the world
- has ever seen.

So the pilots fighting in the Normandie Nieman regiment (free french) are also NOT heroes, just because they fought for Stalin's VVS (or at least in the VVS) ?

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 08:02 PM
RocketDog wrote:
- JZG-Pedro wrote:
-
-- And you say he IS NOT a Hero
-
- I would not regard him as a hero because he was
- fighting, for one of the most evil regimes the world
- has ever seen. Wallenberg was a hero. Nowotny just
- increased the level of suffering in the world.
-
- If he was a hero, then so is Darth Vader.



Obviously you`re not educated enough to be a strong point of this discussion.


"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 08:19 PM
It makes me sick to read all this.

Michich_303 You should be red in shame by your words...

What we can't understand is : what is your concept of "Hero" ?

-------------------------------------------------

Pedro, I`m as pale on the face as ever...no signs of red on the face so far http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 08:38 PM
All I have to say is that if the people of Austria were really that upset then they would have removed his ashes alot sooner than now.

I mean comon, the people that were alive during the war would have been the ones most connected to its events, and the burial of Nowontny in that cemetary should have made the most impact on them. Yet, they didn't move him.

It seems a little stupid to remove him now, after nearly 60 years. Actually its totally stupid.

_____________________________________

When does a game end being a game and become a simulator? Interesting questions to ponder while waiting, from Aces-High.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:04 PM
I guess the leftists in austria would like to forget that their country wasnt always so left.

To any of you that know any history, should General Lee be branded as a hero? Or any of the southern generals in the Civil War? Did they not technically fight for slavery?



--NJG26_Killa--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:10 PM
lbhskier37,please don`t bring that up.Every case needs it`s own way of solving.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

adlabs6
07-13-2003, 09:10 PM
This seems a case of the "superior" imposing their will on those humans they view as "inferior".

Wasn't the allied effort focussed on stopping this very thing?

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XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:11 PM
This is utter BS! He was not a war criminal, nor a Nazi. He was a HERO to his people!

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Executive Officer- I./JG28

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:23 PM
Are there none of his relatives alive? They, if anybody, should have the right to decide over his last resting place.

This whole thing is absurd IMO!

regards, GurraZ (aka "Nidhogg")

<center>http://student.nackademin.com/bit02109/nidhogg.jpg


Directo Avanto Directo Travertcis!

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:26 PM
- Sure we do. I'd define a deceased military hero as
- someone who fought and died for a noble cause. None
- of the Third Reich's war dead seem to qualify
- because- whichever way you cut it- they were
- fighting in aid of Hitler's military adventurism and
- to perpetuate a genocidal regime. Every bullet fired
- by a German soldier outside Germany was a crime
- because it was intended to help impose Nazism
- elsewhere. The 200 Russian lads killed by Nowotny
- were fighting for their very existence- to repel the
- invader of their homeland. Nowotny was fighting in
- the interests of a barbaric German Empire and the
- extermination of the Jews- whether he realised it or
- not.We shouldn't confuse 'heroism' with remarkable
- individual effort.

I find it sad that the tainted view of the war perpetuated by western media is so widely adopted. It is ironic that you see German soldiers as ineligible for heroism, while at the same time refering to "200 Russian lads" with reverence. Those 200 Russian lads were the equal of German soldiers in that they fought to support a brutal regime. My country was equally invaded by germans and russians, and although not as mechanically methodical, the russians were just as brutal as the germans (my great-grand parents were boiled alive by the russians). You say that every bullet fired outside of Germany was a crime -- what about the American workers building armaments for Lend-Lease export to Russia -- were they criminals as well, for supporting the brutal Soviet regime?

It is politically convenient to place the blame on the shoulders of the "evil" German soldiers, but what of the impotence of European politicians in the 1930's? Maybe we should examine whether Neville Chamberlin was a criminal as well, because his appeasment policy did more to further Hitler's cause than any single German soldier.

Yet I do not condemn Chamberlin, and I do not condemn Nowotny because they likely made their decisions with much less information than we have now. In a war, few hands remain clean, and to merit one side with heroism and the other with vileness is simply narrow-minded.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:41 PM
Hi all,

What I do find strange is that I (as an Englishman) am defending a dead Austrian who fought against my country in World War 2.

At the same time, Many German and Austrians on this forum are attacking their own dead soldiers/airmen for doing what they had to do in World War 2.

It is a sad, sad world.

EuroLord

To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-13-2003, 09:41 PM
This is really insane.


Does anybody remember Hitler wasn't born in Germany, but in Austria!?!? So what does THAT tell us? Should he have a gravestone in Austria instead!?



greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:45 PM
Comparing a common dead soldier who did his duty to a maniac? Im glad fallen soldiers in my country dont recieve the kind of respect those in europe do.

--NJG26_Killa--

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/FW190.jpg .

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:57 PM
It will do better now for people like this councilman to let things be.Seems a little self-rightous.


This will not change history.Many more Austrians fought for the Reich,including Hitler himself.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:12 PM
Rocketdog, you're a MORON!.
First pass the third grade, and ONLY THEN come and talk about this kind of things.
IMO, this Belgian guy is something between an idiot and an ibecille.
Nowotny had nothing to do with nazi, he was just respecting orders, At theat time, due to the political events, Austria was integrated into the 3rd Reich. He was fighting for his country whatsoever. You CANNOT just wait 60 years, and wake up that your grandfather was killed and try to revenge this!!!! If he is trying to avenge his grand father, he gott it all wrong.
It' simply not-human, ilogical, and lack of good-sense to do somthing like this.
If Nowotny wasn't a Hero, then who was???
Probably is not the wright argument for being a hero, but He, among many others, fought against a much superior forces, just for the sake of his country, and ppl.
What's next,? to go and move all german, Finish, Romanian, etc aces from theyr grave???
It's OUTRAGEOUS! Red Storm is wright, the winners write the history. The history will never dissapear, The fact that some mad ppl just wanted to do the things on their way to rule the world, has nothing to do with the bravery of some others. Stalin killed many ppl, but he was considered after WW2 a Hero, why?
Did he ever took a rifle and went in the first line??
Nowotny was a hero. PERIOD.
BTWn the National-Socialism managed to raise Germany from the dirt where was thrown and make it the powerfull nation in Europe. This has nothing to do with killing ppl. Yes I admire the nazi's but just for the tremendous work they did to save the german ppl. This was admirable. Until the coquering tentation came....
R.I.P.

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:18 PM
"Also don't forget that if the majority of Germans hadn't wanted Hitler there in the first place then the whole ruddy mess wouldn't of started."

I think this is total BS. Not only did the majority not want him in, but many if not most of the leaders did not want him either. The Nazi party was a minority, not a majority.

Here in the US we have an electoral system that put in office a man who did not win the popular vote (it is done on a state per state basis rather than an overall popular vote), and this is a longstanding representative democracy. To think that the only way Hitler could have come to power in Germany at that time was with a great deal of popular support is foolish.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:29 PM
Aces-High wrote:
- All I have to say is that if the people of Austria
- were really that upset then they would have removed
- his ashes alot sooner than now.
-
- I mean comon, the people that were alive during the
- war would have been the ones most connected to its
- events, and the burial of Nowontny in that cemetary
- should have made the most impact on them. Yet, they
- didn't move him.
-
- It seems a little stupid to remove him now, after
- nearly 60 years. Actually its totally stupid.
-
- _____________________________________
-
- When does a game end being a game and become a
- simulator? Interesting questions to ponder while
- waiting, from Aces-High.


This decision was made by politicians and not by the Austrian people. It's a shame.


http://www.bmlv.gv.at/images/flagge.gif


http://www.metalforum-austria.net/vbb/attachment.php?s=&postid=15243

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:30 PM
Well, if we already talk here about Austrian Soldiers fighting with the German Forces during WWII, then maybe you should look up the name of Feldwebel(Sergeant) Anton Schmid, and see that there are some cases were we would be in even more trouble of determining if he would be a hero. After the definition of some this Anton Schmid would not be able to be called a hero because he fought alongside the Wehrmacht as a soldier, yet his deeds speak otherwise.

Also, it should be determined if someone was a Nazi or not, and how this relates to other thing. Also, Nowotny was most often fighting at the frontlines, did he there have the chance to do much about the many crimes of the Nazis? I know, he should have done something against the Nazi while being stationed in France as a teacher, then there would be no discussion. But, alas, he did not, and we will never know why.

Then there is that other thing that someone mentioned in this thread, about German people killing American or British bomber crews. I would have asked you if the British would have kept their calm, if some attacker would have just leveled their city and a bomber crashed in the vincinty of that same city. I would think that most would have had also feelings of anger and would have vented them towards the bomber crew.

And as for the bombs on England, the first bombs were thrown by England in May of 1940, German bomberattacks started on England started in June of 1940. A fact that was already acknowledged by the British in 1944, by J.M Spaight. Although I have to say that Goering was stupid - as were the any others that used bombs on civilans - to think that bombing would decrease the morale of people or that it would be a viable way of winning a war. And it is by no means the justification to start bombing civilians, but many military leaders accepted this kind of bombing as a necessary evil. In 1915 a british mathematician said that to destroy a town efficiently you would have to start so many fires that the firefighters could not possibly think of extinguishing them all. Churchill planned an attack of 1,000 bombers on Berlin in the 1930's. US pilots under French command wiped out an undefened city of 6000 in Morroco in 1926. Von Richthofen was 'delighted' (what an awful word for this circumstance) about the results produced in Guernica in Spain and he went on to try it again in 1939 on Warsaw. Ah well, that whole war was a mess to begin with and will remain so it seems.

Here a link: http://www.algonet.se/~sven-l/engtxt2.html

Giving a brief overview of such things.

Yes, I know I strayed off a bit, but as is the case I deemed it necessary. Maybe Nowotny even saved a few Jews by shooting down bombers, because not all of them were deported, some were hidden from the authorities, only to die then in the bombings? At least he saved civilians from dying, a thing that is courageous and worthy of hero status all of it's own.



<p align="center">http://hometown.aol.de/Deathbrng/Sigfinal.jpg</p><p align="center">'Hmmm? I wonder what the red button is for........'</p><p align="center">HL Nick = BLUE_Schnitter</p>

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:33 PM
What I see in this decision is that they have nothing more useful to do...

Well, Nowotny was certainly not a criminal. Was he a hero, it can be discussed, but I don't see the need to move his grave as if he was a dog, he wasn't, he was a skillful and courageous pilot.

But on the other hand, it makes me sick to see this used by far-right groups to make people speak about them.

A problem in Austria is that this country was always considered a victim of the germans during WWII while, in fact, it was a part of Germany and the austrians weren't better nor worse than the germans during the war, they WERE germans.

If people, in Austria have a rejection of things linked to the austrian participation in what did the third reich, this is normal, it should always have been like this but there are more appropriate targets than Nowotny for these reactions.


As for Stauffenberg, one should remember that he wasn't linked with the allies or any other country, he (with other officers) decided to act for his country and the whole world, to get rid of a monster, so maybe some can call him a traitor to Hitler, but certainly not to Germany (he is among the greatest heroes ever, those who had the courage to fight alone against everyone around them in order to have a better world).

Final point, many compare the Red Army to the Wehrmacht and the SS, how on earth can one compare an army who fought back to recover his stolen country by invaders who killed millions of civilians and this, while suffering all the madness of a cruel dictator (who didn't help them to win this war, far from that) with this invading army ?

Stalin never got any popular support for wars like the Winter war or the invasion of Poland, nor did he have such support for the Autumn Storm operation against Japan in 1945.

If you go to Russia today, you will find a lot of people to tell you how great were the Red Army's heroes while spitting on Stalin (who, BTW, wasn't russian, he and Beria were georgians) at the same time ?

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:38 PM
Von_Zero wrote:
- BTWn the National-Socialism managed to raise
- Germany from the dirt where was thrown and make it
- the powerfull nation in Europe. This has nothing to
- do with killing ppl. Yes I admire the nazi's but
- just for the tremendous work they did to save the
- german ppl. This was admirable. Until the coquering
- tentation came....


Are you sure?And I thought USA,USSR and GB(partly) were the main reasons why German economy rose from the ashes.Nazis came to power practically in 1933.That was <u>after</u> Germany came out of the crisis.Everything what nazis did was a big show off operation followed by terror(SA,SS).


"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:11 PM
someone said:

"Would you like Germany to win in WWII ? This is the difference"

We can't really know which situation of those 2 would be best, as the good can't be clarified. You can't know anything about the alternative future (The Germans won). If the Germans had won, for sure there wouldn't be the Cold War, the US wouldn't be the SuperPower and all those stupid attacks of the US shouldn't have been done etc etc. If Germany had won, we don't know if things would be better or worse now. Except if you consider the current situation of the world to be good. When a superpower country does a killing attack every 6 months to practise their army.

Most classify the Germans from their reaction "in" the war. The war has no rules and will never have. That's why it is called a war. You can't know however which would be the result of each winning side today.

Since you can't know the alternative future you can't blame this pilot anymore that did his job.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:30 PM
If you want to get your panties in a bunch over revisionist history, take a long look at Japan. Contrary to Germany, Japan has yet to fully acknowledge its' contribution to the depravity of man with their litany of unbeleivable war crimes. Take, for instance, the 'Rape" of Nanking in 1937, where a conservative estimate of 300,000 people (unarmed) were massacred over a seven week orgy of violence- more lives than those killed at Hiroshoma and Nagasaki combined. Those convicted as war criminals and executed by the allies are interred in a national shrine memorializing war heroes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1330223.stm

This nonsense concerning Nowotny is just more historical revisionism perpetrated by polital ideologues with no respect for history, fishing for support in a mutating society that evaluates its past using contemporary values.

Now coming to a country near you: expect the graves of our Founding Fathers to come under attack in the not-so-distant future as they are branded more and more as depraved, priveleged white slaveholders. Already several schools in the States have had a President's name stripped from it to be replaced by some contemporary 'hero'.
Only your concerted efforts to speak out against this stupidity will stall it. E-mail, write, or scream at the responsible politician near you who engages in this practice.

OldFrenchy






Message Edited on 07/13/0311:28PM by OldFrenchy

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:37 PM
The dead cannot be hurt. All his actions remain the same-every plane he shot down and action he took will always remain the same. Their is only one actual history but many ways to percieve it. This changes nothing about the man or what he did. sour grapes. PC rubbish. smoke and mirrors.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:40 PM
CA_OuTcAsT wrote:
- Most classify the Germans from their reaction "in"
- the war. The war has no rules and will never have.
- That's why it is called a war.

There are rules for war, as those relating to the POWs or the way the civilians have to be treated.

The fact killing the ennemy is normal in war isn't authorising the soldiers to behave as butchers.

The expression "war criminal" speaks for itself : there are rules which have to be respected.

BTW, before the operation Barbarossa, german commanders down to the regiment level received orders from the central command telling them the soviet civilians weren't to be considered as protected by the international and german rules of war usually applying to civilians (in fact, it was a license to kill anyone they wanted to kill, civilian or not), these orders even shocked many Wehrmacht unit commanders, a few of whom didn't transmit them to their troops (as far as these reactions are concerned "Stalingrad" by Anthony Beevor is an interresting read).

P.S. : many of us would most probably never have been born had the germans won, you should think before writing, the way the nazis behaved was the image of absolute evil, remember Churchill : "Against Hitler, I would ally with the devil himself", he was right.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:01 AM
carguy_ wrote:

- Obviously you`re not educated enough to be a strong
- point of this discussion.

Let me try and explain my point in simpler terms so that you can follow my argument. My point is that it really depends how you define a "hero".

If by "hero" you simply mean someone who was good at killing other people, then yes, you can have Nowotny as a hero.

If you mean someone who fought hard for his country and (and didn't really care whether what his country did was right or wrong) then you can again have Nowotny as a hero. But I'm a European, and soldiers who fight hard for their country without thinking about right or wrong have a deservedly poor reputation in Europe. The quotation at the bottom of this post is quite pertinent.

If you mean someone who fought in a dangerous war, then you might call him a hero - although you would have to call so many millions of people heroes in that case that it rather undermines the specialness of the term. However, I've noticed that in America the term "hero" is used much more freely than in Europe, so this may be why you could not understand my point.

To me it seems a hero must not only perform at least one act of great bravery, but must also do so in a cause which is demonstrably just. If you abandon the second of these criterion then any fanatic with a gun and a grudge is a hero. This was my point about Darth Vader. In Star Wars, Darth Vader fearlessly and effectively serves an evil empire. The analogy with Nowotny is pretty obvious. If you are going to grant hero status to someone who served effectively in the cause of Nazi Germany, then you have by the same logic to say Darth Vader, or members of the SS, or whatever, qualify as heroes. In this case the term "hero" becomes so debased as to be meaningless.

So Nowotny fails my test for being a hero. He was an effective fighter pilot in the service of a repulsive and evil state. I find it impossible to admire him, or regard him as a "hero", because the moral dimension to his actions is entirely absent.

Regards,

RocketDog.


"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

Einstein.



(edited for spelling)

Message Edited on 07/13/03 11:04PM by RocketDog

Message Edited on 07/13/0311:06PM by RocketDog

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:16 AM
RocketDog wrote:
- If you mean someone who fought hard for his country
- and (and didn't really care whether what his country
- did was right or wrong) then you can again have
- Nowotny as a hero. But I'm a European, and soldiers
- who fight hard for their country without thinking
- about right or wrong have a deservedly poor
- reputation in Europe.
And in that case what would Nowotny was suposed to do so YOU could call him a hero??

If by "hero" you simply mean someone who was good at
- killing other people, then yes, you can have Nowotny
- as a hero
So you consider Nowotny a simple , "ordinary" KILLER ???
Well, I'm an european too, and for sure some other ppl here are but that will not change the nonseses you write.
So Nowotny fails my test for being a hero. He was an
- effective fighter pilot in the service of a
- repulsive and evil state. I find it impossible to
- admire him, or regard him as a "hero", because the
- moral dimension to his actions is entirely absent.
Ok, the translation: You are THE ONE that decides who is a hero and who not; Nowotny was some kind of madman that was just flying and fighting for the pleasure of killing other ppl?!?!!?!?
Do you read what you are writeing?????

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:21 AM
This is tough. Without reading all the other posts, here is my take on it.

-Nowotny was a great pilot, that does not mean he was a great man.

-He must have known what he was fighting for and what it represented. A real hero would have tried to defect or refused to fight. Having said that I don't think I would have had the courage to refuse out of fear of Nazi punishment. I would have probably tried to defect. I'm not the stuff of heroes, but at the same time if I knew I was fighting for a regime that was throwing innocent people into ovens I would try to do something about it, even if only to relieve my own guilt. Germany was the aggressor, and everyone knew this, especially the soldiers who were fighting. I don't have respect for anybody who "does their duty" when they know that duty is wrong.


-But here is where it gets tricky. In the beginning of the war, when Germany was invading other nations, I would have defected. If I became a pilot towards the end of the war and saw my homeland and its citizens being bombed because of the ravings of a madman then I would fight on to protect the people. This is a tough situation, and this is just my opinion.

-Despite all of this, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I would disturb his grave. Whether or not he supported Hitler or not makes no difference as far as this is concerned. Let the dead rest. Pulling a stunt like this only brings up bad memories and this is probably the result of someone with BS political interests.


The bottom line is that he was just a soldier and certainly not a hero. *Only the people close to him know what kind of man he really was*. He is dead. The Nazi regime is dead. Let them go and put them behind us and let us move forward instead of back.


Oh, and just to add to this. In another post I said that the FW-190 is my favorite plane in FB. But FB for me is all about immersion and for this reason I rarley fly for the LW anymore. I know I may be taking this too seriously, but I just don't enjoy flying for a regime that was so twisted and evil even in a fictitious setting. Now I only fly for the USAAF and RAF, only with Russian markings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg



Message Edited on 07/13/0311:26PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:24 AM
small minded petty beurocrats using their power to settle what is probably a personal grudge nothing new here...
the sad thing is ,this is the type of stuff that has started wars..

let the dead ly...



<img src=http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/FW190-D9-29_small.jpg>
"yeah whatever"

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:24 AM
Von_Zero wrote:

- Ok, the translation: You are THE ONE that decides
- who is a hero and who not; Nowotny was some kind of
- madman that was just flying and fighting for the
- pleasure of killing other ppl?!?!!?!?
-
- Do you read what you are writeing?????

Apparently more carefully than you do.

I've given you my definition of "hero" and explained why Nowotny doesn't qualify.


Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:29 AM
Now you`re talking, RocketDog!

I fully understand your point.

Just one thing.If you directed your post towards me,then it`s worthless.I don`t qualify Nowotny in a "hero" cathegory.IMO as a soldier who died fighting,he deserves some respect so his ashes should be left alone forever.

His peace musn`t be disturbed.


This hero discussion is sensless IMO.Some would call Stalin a hero.To me he`s a deadbeat with an obsession of power and one of the most evil men in humanity`s history.No point in arguing.



"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:29 AM
silly thread


the choice in 1939 was communism or nazism

America was isolationist and England under Chamberland was a lost cause .. democractic capitalism was not seen as a viable option by most people

In the 1930's it was 50-50 whether the US and English would eventually side with Stalin or Hitler in the upcoming trouble, a lot of Americans including famous aviator Charles Lindburgh where pushing for America to come in on the German side and Chamberland was trying very hard to side with the Germans.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:33 AM
I don't agree with moving his remains out of apparently boredom; Austria must be a luxurious, happy place if this is what they bother themselves about. But he and his fellow airmen, as well as all the others whom served the Axis powers had to be fought and killed to save humanity from a barbarism that, had it survived for five more years, would have destroyed humanity. And though some fought with valor and distinction out of the purest martial ideals, and deserve perhaps to sit at some heavenly round table, we can be glad they they were not skillful enough to turn the tide and win. Nowotny HAD to die to save the world for he fought for evil incarnate, however now that he has been laid to rest, not being responsible for the terrible crimes commited by the side for which he fought, shouldn't he at least have at least peace in death?

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:39 AM
carguy_ wrote:

- IMO as a soldier who died
- fighting,he deserves some respect so his ashes
- should be left alone forever.

I totally agree. It is sad that his grave has become a political football in Austria. Far better to let it rest.

As a parallel: Britain (where I live) is full of memorials to distinctly questionable wars fought by the British empire. It's very hard in the 21st Century to feel any sense of pleasure or achievement looking at memorials to generals who seem to have spent most of their careers massacring African tribes with Maxim guns. But it would be wrong to start tearing them down in a retrospective act of judgement. They're part of history and that is where they should stay.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:44 AM
He fought for his country not for Hiter or any other Nazi, this guy was one of the worlds best pilots, and I say we should honour him for that!



Message Edited on 07/13/0306:45PM by Ultimate_Stuka

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:47 AM
nicli wrote:

-
- P.S. : many of us would most probably never have
- been born had the germans won, you should think
- before writing, the way the nazis behaved was the
- image of absolute evil, remember Churchill :
- "Against Hitler, I would ally with the devil
- himself", he was right.
-
-

get a grip on your angst... please. It's over.

Another Quote by the very same man was "We killed the wrong pig" shortly after the end of the 3rd Reich.

And for the likes of michchich: try and wrap you mind around the concept that -given NAZI Germany had won the war- Allied Bomber Crews, or any allied soldier for that matter would have been labeled "war criminals" after the war. Simple as it gets. It has always been that way.

Whitespitfire brought up Coventry et al:

http://www.coventry.gov.uk/cocoon/ourcity/historyofcoventry/index.xml

Excerpt:

Coventry was subjected to the single most concentrated attack on a British city in World War II. The raid lasted 11 hours, with 43,000 homes damaged or destroyed, and the great mediavel church of St Michaels destroyed - the only cathedral to be destroyed in World War II. Its central library, market hall and hundreds of shops and public buildings were destroyed. The official death toll was 554, but the real figure could have been much higher as many were unaccounted for.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/ww2/ww2-10.htm

Speaks of a total of 12000+ dead and 20000 wounded civilians in London, around 40000 dead / 46000 injured as a total for Great Britain.

I am not going into the body count game here, but the fact that G¶ring called off the raids because they did not "break the will of the british" remains. As a matter of fact the subsequent bombings of german civilians by the allied forces did not do the job either. Heck, "Shock and Awe" didn't work properly some months ago...
Bomb people that have no way to run and they take it out on the ones who did it- if they get a chance - which also explains why people lynched downed pilots. On both sides. Anyone trying to tell me that downed german pilots/crews were treated with tea and crumpets :roll:
One of the less humorous stories I was told by a british veteran was that of a farmer standing by a burning wreck of a He111 when the Army arrived. Asked if he had seen any of the crew he replied: "One tried to crawl out, but I pushed him back in with my pitchfork."

This kind of discussion is going nowhere. Don't try to rationalize things that happen in wars. It's not going to work. If you think that bravery can only displayed by the ones the war spits out as winners -hold on that thought. just don't try and sell your POV as the one and only.

Strip the incident down to the bare bones and the fact remains that a body is to be exhumed after 60 years for one reason, and one reason only: political correctness.
Or better: the desperate attempt to try and show that someone has come clean with history.

Only to prove that history isn't finished with him by a long shot.





-------------------------------------

A superior pilot may be defined as one who stays out of trouble by using his superior judgement, to avoid situations which might require the use of his superior skills.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:53 AM
WTE galway wrote:
quote: "silly thread


the choice in 1939 was communism or nazism

America was isolationist and England under Chamberland was a lost cause .. democractic capitalism was not seen as a viable option by most people

In the 1930's it was 50-50 whether the US and English would eventually side with Stalin or Hitler in the upcoming trouble, a lot of Americans including famous aviator Charles Lindburgh where pushing for America to come in on the German side and Chamberland was trying very hard to side with the Germans. "

You miss the point, WTE galway. The thread is is an objection (for the most part) to revisionist history.

The only people making a choice for communism or nazism in the 30's were communists or nazis. Becoming an ally with the Soviet Union during WW2 was not an endorsement of their system- it was a symbiotic reflex for survival against the aggressive Nazi war machine. Although some prominent Americans endorsed the Third Reich early on (Henry Ford is another name that springs to mind), increasing public awareness of the persecution of the jews and the totalitarian aims of Hitler effectively prevented any thought of support for that regime.
Chamberlain was trying "to avoid war at all costs". His kow-towing only emboldened Hitler. So much for pacifists.

OldFrenchy

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:06 AM
The decision had already been made. All parties had previously agreed to leave all graves alone. So, the Austrian government is going back on its agreements. It doesn't matter who Nowonty fought for, Austria doesn't have the right to move him.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:07 AM
Gack, double post

Harry Voyager

Message Edited on 07/13/0307:09PM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:33 AM
My $.02:

As far as what makes a hero, I can add a few things. From the beginnings of civilization, and even before then, cultures have bestowed great honors on those who have excelled in war. Being "simply good at killing people" does in fact qualify you for hero status with most societies, like it or not. So does courage in the face of danger and self-sacrifice, and Nowotny possessed both of those in good measure as well.

Does one have to fight for a noble cause to be a hero? This is a more difficult question. Nowotny joined the Luftwaffe in '39. Most Germans (and Austrians) who volunteered for military service at the time no doubt felt that they were doing something to right an unbearable wrong (Versailles). Is that not a noble cause? To say that it isn't is overusing the benefit of hindsight. Then, once one has joined, simply fighting becomes a noble cause. Deserting one's comrades in arms because of an ideal isn't courage, it's madness.

Nowotny earned his status as a hero, and it would be a terrible insult to all warriors to revoke it.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:51 AM
Panzzzz wrote:
- My $.02:
-
- As far as what makes a hero,

This is getting off topic, and what I'm about to say is not meant as a confrontation, but as a genuine question, so please don't take offence, but wouldn't you definition be flexible enough to allow the September 11 terrorists to be called heroes?

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:03 AM
RocketDog wrote:
but wouldn't
- you definition be flexible enough to allow the
- September 11 terrorists to be called heroes?
-


Some people would actually say so .. they probably saw themselves (misled or not) as sacrificing themselves to bring down an evil system that is flooding the "civilised world" with pornography, material greed and pushing a corrupt system of government.

More to the point Nowotny was not a bomber pilot he actually fought to protect civilians (and his fellow troops of course) from attack by bombers

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:04 AM
RocketDog wrote:
-
- Panzzzz wrote:
-- My $.02:
--
-- As far as what makes a hero,
-
- This is getting off topic, and what I'm about to say
- is not meant as a confrontation, but as a genuine
- question, so please don't take offence, but wouldn't
- you definition be flexible enough to allow the
- September 11 terrorists to be called heroes?
-
- Regards,
-
- RocketDog.
-

Faulty compairison. They were not fighting for their country, in a declared war, that had already lasted four to five years. They were attempting to kill the United States by stealth and deception. They were attempting to frighten us into submission.

Frankly the entire concept of honour and dignity is an artificial contruction, mostly created to make our lives easier to deal with. Nowonty fought in an honourable manner, because we knew Germany was fighting us, and could take measures to stop them.

Terrorists do not fight in an honourable way, because we do not know they are fighting a war against us, until after they strike, so we must always be prepared to stop them, even in times of peace. This perpetual preparedness puts a very signifigant strain on our lives, and generaly causes much more long term waste than a full out war does. That is why it is deemed dishonourable.

Harry Voayger

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

Message Edited on 07/13/0308:09PM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:05 AM
RocketDog - no offense taken at all, and a good point http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That'd be a real stretch of my definition. But...it could be made to fit. No doubt that those who carried out the attacks on Sept 11 are heroes to some. However, one can dispute a few things.

One, were they courageous? They were filled with the conviction that they would reap great rewards in the afterlife for their deeds. That eliminates the need for courage, and also eliminates self-sacrifice in the grander sense. Second, overcoming unarmed crew and passengers and flying a passenger plane into an undefended building hardly qualifies them as having any real martial or soldierly skill.

In my opinion they were fanatics, not heroes.

Cheers,

Panzerman



Message Edited on 07/14/0301:05AM by Panzzzz

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:07 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- Faulty compairison. They were not fighting for
- their country, in a declared war, that had already
- lasted four to five years. They were attempting to
- kill the United States by stealth and deception.


Harry, there have been men who gave their lives in the first days of undeclared wars waged with stealth and deception that most certainly qualify as heroes. It was a valid question.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:19 AM
-- you definition be flexible enough to allow the
-- September 11 terrorists to be called heroes?
--
-
-
- Some people would actually say so

Would you? If Nowotny was a hero, so were the Sept 11th hijackers, so is Osama bin Laden, so was Baruch Goldstein.

In fact, even Hitler can be a hero under that definition. After all, he fought for what he believed in, didn't he?

- More to the point Nowotny was not a bomber pilot he
- actually fought to protect civilians (and his fellow
- troops of course) from attack by bombers

Nowotny joined the Luftwaffe in 1939. They weren't doing much protection of civilians then. The JG were busy escorting German bombers to Warsaw and Rotterdam and London.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:22 AM
-Would you? If Nowotny was a hero, so were the Sept 11th
- hijackers, so is Osama bin Laden, so was Baruch Goldstein.



there are no heroes in war its about killing
there are heroes only in movies and in computer games

the myth of heroes and "just wars" is perpetuated to justify the killing

its still going on today

Message Edited on 07/14/0301:25AM by WTE_Galway

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:25 AM
hop2002 wrote:

- In fact, even Hitler can be a hero under that
- definition. After all, he fought for what he
- believed in, didn't he?

To some people, he still is.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/LT150.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:25 AM
Early in Hitler's life, he could have been called a hero. He was a highly decorated Germany army corporal with a reputation for bravery. However, his actions later in life were completely void of anything resembling martial gallantry or honor. So that disqualifies him.

I honestly can't say I know enough about Osama Bin Laden to make an informed judgement.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:26 AM
Panzzzz wrote:
-
- HarryVoyager wrote:
--
-- Faulty compairison. They were not fighting for
-- their country, in a declared war, that had already
-- lasted four to five years. They were attempting to
-- kill the United States by stealth and deception.
-
-
- Harry, there have been men who gave their lives in
- the first days of undeclared wars waged with stealth
- and deception that most certainly qualify as heroes.
- It was a valid question.
-

Ok, I was mostly saying that they are not directly comparable to Nowonty, because the situations were too dissimilar. It would be more reasonable to compair the Sept 11 bombers to soldiers who fight wars of stealth, than to soldiers who fight open wars.

A more reasonable modern compairison to Nowonty would be those Iraqi tank units that charged that British Challanger unit in the recent Gulf war, and were slaughtered. They fought to supposrt a regime that imprisoned children because their parents were political disidents, hung people on meat hooks, gassed its own populous, and in general commited henious acts. Does that mean those Iraqi tank crews should be burried in dishonoured graves?

Calling on front line soldiers to make moral judgements about their governments while still trying to survive is to much to ask of people, to my mind. If one is asked to follow immoral orders, that is one thing, but they were called to defend their country from an invader. How much does it matter if the invation and the invader are just?

Let the dead lie. War has been rightly called mass insanity; trying to make sense of it will only drive one insane.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:28 AM
WTE_Galway wrote:
- there are no heroes in war its about killing
- there are heroes only in movies and in computer
- games
-
- the myth of heroes and "just wars" is perpetuated to
- justify the killing
-
- its still going on today
-
- Message Edited on 07/14/03 01:25AM by
- WTE_Galway

WTE, so you would tell me that there is no valour in war, no noble sacrifice? It's just a bunch of people on either side that want to kill and need an excuse? And that any stories of heroism are merely propaganda?

And I'm not being sarcastic when I ask.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:33 AM
Panzzzz wrote:

- WTE, so you would tell me that there is no valour in
- war, no noble sacrifice? It's just a bunch of
- people on either side that want to kill and need an
- excuse? And that any stories of heroism are merely
- propaganda?
-
- And I'm not being sarcastic when I ask.
-



Bravery and valour does not make a hero in my opinion. Soldiers are doing there job.

The true heroes in World War II were people like the English fisherman sailing to Dunkirk in unarmed fishing boats or the German firemen dieing in Dresden trying to save non-german refugee's from the allied fire bombing.

Nowotmy is not a hero but deserves respect for the way he fought for what he believed in.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:38 AM
One could just as easily reply that those Englishmen in their boats were just doing their civic duty for their country, and that those German firemen were just doing what they were paid for.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but do you believe that participation in war somehow taints one's actions?

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:45 AM
I cannot believe someone mentioned Marlene Dietrich's name in this thread. Be real. There is no correlation. BTW, IMO, and I am not even from the same country as her, I very well could consider her a traitor. She kissed the Nazi *** just to get what she wanted. She knew very well what she was doing. She made up her mind she was going to get what she wanted no matter what, and that was simply to be a singer, and she became a Nazi to help accomplish that. The main point about her is, she KNEW what a Nazi truly was, but she still became one. Totally self serving she was.

Anyway, the topic needs to remain on the Nowotny NAME. There is plenty to disuss with him all by itself. Mentioning other names will really just get the thread even more screwed up.

Also, some of you need to really reread what you write before you post. There are just too many stupid statements in this thread. What is funny about this, I am sure, is that the people writing the most stupid statements will not think that applies to them.

NOW, a person cannot just take Nowotny's skill as deserving of hero status. I am sorry, but that is just the truth.

When I was younger, I knew one of the best pilots ever. Trouble is, he was running drugs across the border. I surely cannot consider him a hero. However, had he been running rescue missions instead, my opinion would be different.

In regards to Nowotny, again, you cannot just take his skill as a pilot as the measure of his worth. It would have to be known if he really knew what was going on even before the war, as well as during. (From what I can conclude, he did.) It could very well be argued, and could be very true, that he was ignorant of the 'real truths' before and during the war. Remember, the Nazi propaganda machine was probably the only thing many ever heard. He may very well believed he was fighting for a just and right cause. However, think about who and what he was before the war. It would seem he would have known what was going on. However, I will still not pass judgement. I would have to do reseach first.

-

I mentioned something about my background earlier. Let me add, talk to historians on both side of the border of Mexico and the United States. You will get different view points, as we are witnessing here. All will not be the truth.

-

Again, put yourself in another persons shoes and argue honestly, both view points, with yourself. Of course, you have to have some damn intelligence and knowledge before you can do that successfully.

EDIT: Clarification.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 07/13/0308:52PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:55 AM
Panzzzz wrote:
- One could just as easily reply that those Englishmen
- in their boats were just doing their civic duty for
- their country, and that those German firemen were
- just doing what they were paid for.
-
- Not trying to put words in your mouth, but do you
- believe that participation in war somehow taints
- one's actions?
-
-

not at all

but defining heroic action in terms of the right or wrong of some greater cause is simply wrong.

it also not simple. For example where the japanese kamikazee pilots heroes ? I dont think so myself .. but many definitions of hero would say so.

Somehow one gets the feeling that the demonising of the germans in WWII is seen by some posters as justifying current US militaristic foriegn policy ---- which is just silly and totally unfair on the people who fought 60 years ago.

Personally i think the concept of "hero" involves some personal decision on a individual level.

Soldiers can be heroes but generally they are just doing a job and that was what Nowotony was doing a job and respect him for it.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:57 AM
Panzzzz wrote:
My $.02:

. . . . Nowotny joined the Luftwaffe in '39. Most Germans (and Austrians) who volunteered for military service at
the time no doubt felt that they were doing something to right an unbearable wrong (Versailles).
Is that not a noble cause? . . . Then, once one
has joined, simply fighting becomes a noble cause.
Deserting one's comrades in arms because of an ideal
isn't courage, it's madness.

Can anyone of us say what we would have done if we were him? Panzzzz, what you have written contains all the truth that the victims on all fronts could ever understand. Very good post, and by no means off-topic. Nowotny was a courageous man who fought for a cause that he understood to be just. How do I know that? Because all the German citizens that I have spoken with that were alive during this war felt the same at the time . . . or they remember their parents felt this way. When I was living in Germany I had a meal with a LOVELY family. The matriarch of this family said to me when I dared to ask the question "What do you remember of Hitler?" , "We ALL thought this to be a good man at first. He seemed to be so right." I will never forget this. Most of these brave souls were fighting for the same reason that everyone did. You were led to believe that what you were doing was right. And in the case of a bomber intercept pilot, he WAS doing what was right in protecting civillians from the terror of bombs. Remember, we are talking about helpless old folks and children here! Let's remember him this way, and leave him in peace. As has been said already, this only serves to stir up bad feelings, to move his remains. With the exception of those who understood the evil of what they did (yes, on both sides), I have the utmost respect for the courage of the warriors who fought and died (YES! On all sides).
Regards,
Tsisqua



http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/XP-39best.JPG


Death is just nature's way of telling you to watch your airspeed.

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 05:50 AM
Austria (and everyone implied in this pathetic story)should be ASHAMED :

1) Walter Nowotny was a soldier and a war hero, no matter what side he was fighting on. He was born on the german side and fought on the german side, like millions of 20 year old boys. The guy was a pilot, and he did his pilot's job. Brilliantly.


2) You can't expect every german soldier to have resisted the Nazis and end up in a concentration camp. It's easy to say now, in the quiet of 2003, that in his shoes we would have fought Hitler. Nobody can tell.

Besides, depicting the Nazis as a bunch of "bad guys" is a modern view. In 1940, most of the germans thought that Hitler was the best for Germany.


3) Austria warmly welcomed the Nazis during the war, and fought hand in hand with Hitler's 3rd Reich. They have no right to judge anyone in this matter, especially a war hero. We're not talking about a gestapo officer here, Walter Nowotny was a fighter pilot. He died like a soldier, unlike his superior G¶ring, who intended suicide. And he deserves the honors, not the shame.


In conclusion I don't think anybody in the world deserves to be deprived of his grave, but in the case of Walter Nowotny, it's a real disgrace. Shame on Austria.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 06:02 AM
-- you definition be flexible enough to allow the
-- September 11 terrorists to be called heroes?
--
-
-
- Some people would actually say so

Would you? If Nowotny was a hero, so were the Sept 11th hijackers, so is Osama bin Laden, so was Baruch Goldstein.

In fact, even Hitler can be a hero under that definition. After all, he fought for what he believed in, didn't he?

Get a grip!

Nowotny was a soldier, did not killed civilans or innocent.
Showed his color (Not a ileagel combatant)
Right he was a soldier for the worst regim we ever knew, but as a finn maybe we should demand that the russian desgrase sone of the heros (war criminals) ill doubt they do!

ill salut Nowotny as a good Pilot and soldier!

Popse

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 08:03 AM
I love reading comments like 'if he were a real hero he would've refused to fight for the nazis'...

Well, surprise, surprise... he didn't have a choice - like many men during that time. The only two choices were get shot by the allies, or get shot by your own (if you chose to be a desertor)... Unfortunately, the probability of getting out alive of the whole mess was bigger if you chose to fight against the other side.


As for the topic... I personally find it shameful, he should be left to rest in peace.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg


Message Edited on 07/14/0312:05AM by cuski

Zayets
07-14-2003, 08:18 AM
The man should be left to rest in peace. He was not a criminal. If anyone think that people like Nowotny were criminals then anyone taking active part in a war are criminals. Personlay , I would blame Hitler and Stalin and many others for the crimes in WW2 , but not simple people executing the orders. The man fought and fought well and fair. From where I come , even if he was the enemy , we respect people like him. To Nowotny and any other heroes like him , no matter they were fighting for Germany , Russia , Japan , US and so on. May you all rest in peace.
Salute! to all of you.
Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 08:48 AM
Hi all,

I have just received this e-mail (text below) from the City Government of Vienna.


Dear Mr. Richardson,

As a journalist with the City of Vienna Press and Information Services I am not directly concerned with the Novotny affair, but I will nevertheless try to provide some information on this issue.

In May 2003 the Vienna City Council of Vienna decided that the grave of Walter Novotny would no longer be a so-called "Ehrengrab" ("grave of honour" - a special kind of grave on our Central Cemetery). One of the reasons for this decision was that there are several "graves of honour" of people who fought against the Nazi regime, such as Ms Rosa Jochmann, in the same section of the cemetery.

The fact that Mr Novotny's grave is no longer referred to as a "grave of honour" does not mean that his body or remains will be removed from it. It means that the City of Vienna is no longer in charge of looking after the grave. This will instead be done by Mr. Novotny's family or the organisation "Schwarzes Kreuz" ("Black Cross" - an association dedicated to the care of war graves).

As you requested I have forwarded your e-mail to the initiators:

Parliamentary Group of the Social Democrats in the Vienna Provincial Parliament and City Council

("Sozialdemokratische Fraktion des Wiener Landtags und Gemeinderats")

Hope this helps.

Eurolord

To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 09:11 AM
There are some (von) Zeroes in this forum really...

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 09:19 AM
You got it carguy. fully agree. nice to meet some reasonable guys here.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 09:27 AM
Hi all,

Using the logic of the local government in Vienna, that means if the government changes, then that new government will then remove the "Grave of Honour" title from all the people who they do not agree with.

If rubbish like this is allowed to continue, there are going to be a lot of people who are currently in graves of honour, who will have the title removed.

If I remember rightly, Beethoven and Mozart are buried in the central cemetary in Vienna, also in graves of honour. Say in 10 years time, a new government is elected which decides that the graves of these people should no longer be paid for by the people of Vienna because they don't like the style of music produced by Beethoven.

So what if Novotyn is buried in the same section as people who fought against Nazism. What about the Austrians who fought against their own government and on the side of Napoleon in 1805-09.

Where does stupidy like this end...

EuroLord



To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

Message Edited on 07/14/0309:32AM by EuroLord_Ito

Zayets
07-14-2003, 09:45 AM
This thread clearly belongs to ol' PL. A lock seems inevitable.Still , Nowotny was a hero.Period.
Zayets out


http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:07 AM
There were people who thought they had a choice: Stauffenberg, the White Rose community in Munich. This shows THERE WAS a choice although not everyone was aware enough/had guts enough to follow this path

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:13 AM
Not another one of these PC, revisionist-history b*****ds. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I hope someone digs his grave up 60 years later. What a *****!

I'd say this guy has a chip on his shoulder the size of Vienna. What possesses people like this guy to think they have the right to mess with history, and the resting place of another person?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I hope Nowotny's ghost goes and haunts him. There's nothing more cowardly then messing with someone's grave. That's the act of a savage. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

If Nowotny fought and died for what he believed in, and did so with honour, let him rest in peace.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

Message Edited on 07/14/0309:44AM by Owl_NZ

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:28 AM
Mankind has already got far from neanderthal and you haven`t noticed that...

All that mess seems to be worthless as they don`t want to touch the grave - from what I make from the Euro thread.

I did not support digging up grave - so take a chill pill man !!! And that they stop regarding him as hero...well, better late than never.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:39 AM
Sombody might have already mentioned this, but...

I think this is absurd.

That being said, wasn't Mozart buried in a "Pauper's Grave"?

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:42 AM
I haven't read the entire thread yet but just thought that this might be of interest as well. Udet, Moelders and Richthofen were all buried on the "Invaliden Friedhof" in Berlin. Guess what the East German regime did after WW2. They exhumed them too.

On the other hand, there is a small island on the Chiemsee (lake in Bavaria) called Herreninsel, on this island is a small church with cemetery. On this cemetery you will find a grave of Alfred Jodl, if I'm correct he was a member of the OKH. He was tried and convicted and hung at Nuernberg. Needless to say not a single reference can be found at his grave that he was a convicted war criminal. His grave is very opulent, if my memory doesn't deceive me it reads something like chief of staff Alfred Jodl with a big knights cross. This island and its church is a tourist attraction in Bavaria. A lot of people see this without knowing what this guy was responsible for.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:45 AM
Walter Notwony, was a young man living in his times, he does not have the benefit of Hindsight, nor did his leaders or comrades in Battle.
He lived through and died in what we call History.

There is only one Judge, of the Highest Court!

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:50 AM
Sorry Michcich_303, but we have this problem of revisionist-historians in NZ. Even our government is in on the act. It really gets up my nose this sort of carry-on.

It's been said before and will be said to the end of time: YOU CAN'T CHANGE HISTORY. Without it you have no identity or idea of what or who you are today.

People do things that they look back on with regret. It is called life. It's just a pity this councillor has nothing better to do with his....

I wonder how many in his constituency want this to happen?

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 11:12 AM
I get your point Owl..

Sure, you can`t change history but you can make learning out of it. As long as I DO NOT BLAME Nowotny for what he did, I must point out that there were people living in his times who, without "the benfit of hindsight", have done much more noble choices - again I`m going to hammer down: von Stauffenberg, James von Moltke, Weisse Rose. They`ve given their lives in FIGHT (though not combat) just like Nowotny but by no means they can be put on the same level.

Nowotny deserves respect as a soldier and his grave should by no means be desacrated, but it is thanks to people like Stauffenebrg (who does not have a grave...) that we can today say Germans had conscience.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:15 PM
Whom do you call a hero? A person whom you find yourself emulating. You don't call Hitler a hero simply because you cannot find yourself emulating him. By this defination, not a single one of us should be here. The Soviet regime wasn't much better than the Nazi regime. Yet you fly for the Luftwaffe and the VVS in this game. By doing this, aren't you showing that you considered the pilots of those two nations heros? If you argue that there were many options avaliable to the pilots ofthe Luftwaffe other than that offlying for their country, then you really shouldn't be here and you shouldn't have a copy of Fb on your hard drive. It's easy to become judgmental about issues after they've occured, but can you honestly tell me that as a young man in 1935, you wouldn't have answered your nation's call to arms. It isn't as though the Gestappo and the SS Totemkopf divisions carried their work out in open public. There wasa strong sense of resentment in the government against Jewish people in Germany, but atleast on the surface, it wasn't any different from the same resentment that is found intoday's government against the various ethnic groups in the US that have been blacklisted by the administration. I have been searched while travelling from Richmond, VA to Washington DC. by train. I saw no reason for this search other than that my skin colour is brown, and I had a five day growth of beard on my face because I had just finished the semester end examinations. Do you know what it's like to be treated differently just because you have a different ethnicity? Every single person in that coach regarded me as trouble. I ask you, when your own country commits racial prejudices like this, how can you be so apathetic towards the average German citizen who probably was completely unaware of Hitler's hidden plans? If, under these circumstances, you volunteer for your air service, are youa criminal? If the answer to that question is yes, then all I can say to you is that you ought to go join some secret society working towards undermining your government.
Let's leave Nowotny in peace. We have no right to be passing judgement on the man when we ourselves live in a less than perfect world.



http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:34 PM
Spinne, now you`re a bit over the top with involving FB into this story...

this thread seems to be coming to an end...

fluke39
07-14-2003, 12:47 PM
Michcich_303 wrote:
- Spinne, now you`re a bit over the top with involving
- FB into this story...
-
- this thread seems to be coming to an end...


it does... but spinne has a good point though

and seen as this is my only post in this thread:

i think the whole things bloody stupid -
notwotny died for his country - and should be honoured for it like anyone else who dies for their country


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/ffluke.jpg>


Message Edited on 07/14/0312:49PM by fluke39

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 12:48 PM
I think it is ridiculous and sets a bad precedent. Whether or not they were fighting on the morally correct side or for the morally correct reasons is irrelevent. If the man's ashes have been there all this time why now? Utter BS. As far as i am concerned all those men..all those soldiers and airmen are a part of our history as a people and should be looked at that way. Revered? Debateable....in some cases but respected...deffinitely. Those men were all a part of the greatest conflict in human history and in times of war things happen, people get caught up....but IMO any man who can shoot down 250 aircraft deserves to be treated with some respect if for nothing else his flying skill and his politics shouldntr even come into the picture. If the Nazis had made some smarter decisions we all might be in a different world now. Who knows...maybe Winston Churchill might be in a pauper's grave some where.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
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XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:17 PM
Applying values of today to situations in the past is "generational bias". You had to be there, see the way things were in the 40's, before passing judgement.

Those folks lived in a different time. Here we come along, over 50 years later, and pass judgement on those folks, living in a time of unimagined turmoil and strife, based on todays wussy PC values. That is just foolish and biased.

You had to be there.

My Dad was a hero. He was decorated for valor in combat, and for actions in peacetime. Watch your mouth.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:30 PM
in general you`re right.
pls stick to the matter - it`s not "digging up grave" story any more (see Euro post). They just came to a conclusion that they have better Austrians to boast with than Nowotny. So what ?

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:30 PM
Michcich_303 wrote:
- That`s what I expected - flaming and confusion.
- You guys are now going to add million things I have
- never said.
-

Sad to see you were right. You made some good points that deserved sensible replies. However, I would disagree with removing any remains, although it seems from the reply from Vienna that that was never actually going to happen. (Some recent posters should have read all the thread first).

Removing remains after 60 years seems like utter absurdity, but whether or not the City of Vienna should still maintain the grave or not seems much less contentious, and I would have thought that any sane adults would be able to 'agree to disagree' should they hold differing views on the matter.

I think most Russians fought for 'Mother Russia' rather than Stalin's Communist party (although many veterans still seem to regard Stalin as a great hero). Their country was subjected to an unprovoked and brutal invasion, so no need to see their motivation coming from communist ideology (of course, for many that must also have helped). On the whole, they were fighting for survival not ideology. Like so many other otherwise decent people, Nowotny seems to have had little difficulty in being a part of that brutal invasion.

Marlene Dietrich was mentioned: someone said she was a nazi. I may well have got this wrong, but wasn't she one of those who left Germany because of the nazis?

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:56 PM
Hmmmm, this is just fooolish nonsense. I guess the liberal politicians in Austria are trying to distract the people from real issues. Politicians are such fools everywhere.



Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 01:58 PM
To the person that claimed that most Germans didn't want Hitler in.

If most Germans didn't want Hitler in, then how on earth did the third reich come to be? The German public were swept up in the hysteria that was the Nazi party.
Surely there were lots of them that didn't want Hitler in, but there had to be a majority of them to catch on to the hype and be swept up in it. It couldn't of happened otherwise.

To the person that claimed that had Germany won the war then the superpower of the U.S wouldn't be.

No, the U.S wouldn't be the superpower if Germany had beaten them. Germany would be the superpower and when I say Germany I mean Nazis. If the third reich had won the war then what would happen to the people that didn't agree with them? What would happen to people of ethnic background? of asian background? of african background? of Jewish background?

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:37 PM
It came to be by the means of political stupidity, the underestimating of Hitler and ignorance of the fact how bad people wanted to live.
Basically the broad coalition reigning until 1930 broke up over an argument that revolved around raising the mandatory contibutions to the Arbeitslosenversicherung ( a kind of Social Security) about 1/4th of a percent. The coalition broke up, new elections were held, and Hitlers rise began, simply because he promised, that he could make it all good.
End result: a fragmented parliament with no possible way to find a majority, giving the right wing even more reasons to claim they were the best choice. Things went from bad to worse from then on, including acts of terror from SA/SS units to stir up more trouble. Main actors on this drama were Hindenburg, von Papen, Brüning, General Schleicher and Hitler of course.
The bottom line was: Hitler was appointed (NOT elected) chancellor of the Republic and seen as a muppet that would be easy to control and get rid of, especially because the SA and SS Militias were banned shortly before.
History showed how wrong the above people were about Hitler.
As far as "the people" go, by the time it was clear to a broad majority what they had gotten themselves into, every legal and political means to get rid of Hitler was gone. By then it was either the Underground (and an active one) or keeping a low profile. The very real possibility of being arrested and sent off to a concentration camp just because someone felt like getting even with you dicouraged criticism a lot. This will lead to few people actually doing something and a lot of people riding the storm out. And some diehard blowhard that support the guy in charge.

And please...this is not an excuse. It's an explanation.

Edit: As said in the thread above, it seems it is not about exhuming, but changing the status of the grave, which is less PC bullshyte, but still bullshyte.


-------------------------------------

A superior pilot may be defined as one who stays out of trouble by using his superior judgement, to avoid situations which might require the use of his superior skills.

Message Edited on 07/14/0303:40PM by Morbid_Jester

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:47 PM
General Schleicher was assassinated by the SA in his own house in 1934.

President George W. Bush was not elected by popular vote but rather because he had more electoral votes. Perfect example from recent history how one nation elects a leader which the majority didn't want.

I have no intention what so ever to compare Mr Bush to a dictator like Adolf Hitler. It just shows to go that Germany had a system in place that allowed a minority to take advantage of an entire nation.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:55 PM
but today - after successful campaigns in Afganistan and Iraq - Bush has some 80% support in his country.

Do you think that Hitler`s popularity - after Poland`39 and France `40 - might have been seriously boosted and majority of Germans supported him (even if dubious initially) ? Add propaganda effect - there was no free media to criticise him so theoretically support for him might have been really high...

Now, I`ve opened Pandora`s box /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:57 PM
Bush was elected exactly according to the laws of the USA. We do not elect a President simply by majority.

Bush is the third President to lose the "popular" vote yet win anyway. All according to our constitution, the supreme law of the land.

Nothing fishy or underhanded. Many do not like the system, but it is the lawful way of doing things.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 03:14 PM
Both of you are right. But something inside of me, I have to mention that I am German of heritage, refuses to accept that all Germans per say are evil. I just wanted to make an example of how in 1933 a corrupt system in Germany allowed a minority to take command of an entire nation. Of course the Germans were very, lets call it inclined, to Hitlers ideas. But by no means would Germany have elected that man if they fully understood what he was leading them to.
Because the consequence of this thinking is that all men that fought under the German flag can not be perceived as heroes, Novotny, Moelders, Marseille just to mention a few that most of here know about. But there are also men like my grandfather, wounded five times, fought in most major campaigns in WW2. From the hardship he endured, the friends he lost, he is just as much a hero to me as a Mr. Miller that saved private Ryan. But due to terror and crimes associated with the third Reich, they are diluted to war criminals. And I have a problem with that.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 03:19 PM
Elections, 1930, Nazis poll 6 1/2 million votes

End 1931, Party membership passes 5 million

Presidential elections, 1932, Hitler loses to Hindenburg, but gets 37% of vote. Months later Nazis poll 14 million votes & are largest party in Reichstag.

Elections, 1933, Nazis triumph with 17 million votes, 44% of votes cast.

After that, of course, the people had no means of letting their feelings be known.

Those 33 elections are still a pretty big endorsement of the Nazis. In any multi-party state (other than 2 party states, of course) you nearly always find that most people didn't want the party who won. But someone has to be declared the winner. Most modern western polititians would be delighted with 44%, that would be a landslide victory.

A minority vote, true, but a very considerable one.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 03:19 PM
Stauffenberg fought under German flag as well - is he a hero to YOU, AdiGlunz ?

This is just to show you were not doomed as a non-hero just becuase you were on German side - it was a matter of personal choice...though a very hard one...

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 04:06 PM
I may of come across like I am anti German but i'm indeed not.

All I was saying is that Hitler's Reich wouldn't of become what it was if it wasn't for society in general. The people idolised him as the man who could put things right again.

Unfortunately this man also had sinister intentions and if any of you get a chance to read it then read "Hitler's willing excecutioners" it explains how ordinary Germans DID get swept up in the looting of Jewish business, killing Jews on the street, insulting them and finally and ultimately trying to exterminate them. I do also view German armed forces in ww2 as Nazis because they took an oath to be loyal not to germany but to Adolf Hitler.
The Germans knew what they were doing when they attacked Poland,Belgium,Holland etc. Some of them MAY have tried to resist but by then it was far too late.

I will repeat it again that I am not anti German by any means. I have a close friend who is German, and regard him as one of the most decent people I will ever know.

ZG77_Nagual
07-14-2003, 04:17 PM
Somewhat of a shift in topic - but Bush's poplularity is waning fast.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:01 PM
cuski wrote:
- I love reading comments like 'if he were a real hero
- he would've refused to fight for the nazis'...
-
- Well, surprise, surprise... he didn't have a choice.

Everyone has a choice. Heroes have the courage to stand up to, or refuse to participate in actions they don't believe in. Others do not. Many Germans found this courage and defected. This would have been all the easier for Nowotny since he was a pilot and had an avenue of escape. I find it a little bit disturbing that so many people think that Nowotny was a great man or a hero of any sorts because he was a good pilot. The two are completely unrelated. Anyone who flew for the RAF or USAAF is a hero in my book, even if they just did recon/cargo missions, or never shot down a single plane. As I said before it would be different later in the war when the LW pilots were trying to defend the German people from further suffering because of a madman, but it is also different when you are invading other peoples' lands and atrocities are being committed. Again, I completely disagree if they were considering moving the ashes/body. Let the dead rest, let the bad memories of WWII fade away. If they wanted to change the name, no longer associating his burial site with the "grave of honour", then that would have been fine 50 years ago. So much time has past, and no real good can come from an action like this.

To say again though, nobody who fights for a twisted cause (willingly or unwillingly) is a hero. Anybody who fights for what is right is a hero, no matter how small their contribution. Sometimes what is right and what is wrong can be hard to determine, but that certainly wasn't the case where Nazi Germany was concerned. I'm not saying that Nowotny was an evil, twisted man. I AM saying that he fought (willingly or unwillingly) for an evil and twisted regime and should not be considered a hero. He was just a soldier, and only those closest to him know what kind of person he really was.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg



Message Edited on 07/14/0309:03PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 10:21 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Everyone has a choice.

If everyone has a choice, then why the heck did I waste 20 yrs of my life living under a communist regime that 70% (give or take a few percentages) of the population did not want?

The thought that defecting would be so easy never really occured to me... well, I guess it was my fault. Either that, or I was really a masochist without actually knowing it.

How many of those defectors ended up shot by their captors? How many of them died in labour camps? How many of them have disappeared? (Especially when we're talking about Eastern Front).

Easy to say nowadays that he could've just defected.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg


Message Edited on 07/14/0302:28PM by cuski

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 11:51 PM
Please STOP - comparing todays values with those of our Grandparents.

We have a distinct advantage in that we can switch on a 24hr news station and hear immediately (in theory) a balanced, unbiased report about whats going on in the world.

To those people who keep saying Nowotny and other
non-nazi's knew what they where fighting for, I say you haven't a clue. Both sides in the war heard what the respective governments wanted them to here. Why do you think the BBC Worldservice was banned in all occupied countries.

It's not the job of a soldier to think about there orders. They are trained not to think but to do!.

Nowotny killed many allied pilots and as a result I (an Englishment)
would have preferred him to have been killed on his first flight, but he was not - he had a job to do which he did well, he was not placed in a heroes grave because he killed but because he was a leader and a great example to his comrades. When pilots shoot at planes they are shooting at lumps of metal / wood and fabric. Only the Japanese shot at bailing out pilots. All other nations pilots had a respect for each other.

Finally I would like to say Major Nowotny and people like him will be remembered, be it in history books, documentaries and other media -

We will all have forgotten David Ellensohn by the end of the week.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 11:53 PM
No offense meant, Kyrule but I would guess that you are either fairly young or have a tendency to watch a lot of Hollywood movies.

It's been said many times here that unless you were there you have no idea what things were like.

This is the thing that movies are based on, especially Hollywood movies that must always have a hero (and a love interest) to inspire an audience.

A simple scenario: A drug lord wants you to deliver a package to the local high school or he'll shoot you. What do you do?

Ok, being a morally upright hero type you simply go to the police but what if he tells you beforehand that he will kill your sister, mother, and uncle bob if you don't do it?

In movies, the hero agonizes over the decision and finds a way to deny the dealer, rescue uncle bob and family, and kill the dealer. Usually after shooting 10 - 20 evil henchmen on the way.

In reality, you probably would have made it to the second evil henchman and died in a hallway over the period of an hour with a couple slugs in your stomach. Not to mention uncle Bob and family dead. But the dealer would likely have to do his time, so that part's good anyway. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I don't mean to sound condescending with this silly little plot but I'm just trying to illustrate the point a bit better so you can maybe challenge your black & white ideology. Real life has a way of being significantly more complicated than that even.

cheers



<center>http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 12:40 AM
Sheeeeeeeeesssh! This wil continue like that forever !
Look, the facts are :he foughtfor Germany(wich BTW included Austria), there was no way to refuse to fight or to defect, he died fighting. Above all is the fact that under no circumstances he should be moved from his grave, neither him or anyone else, It would degenerate the human spirit.he was a human being, not some kind of animal..
It doesn't matter if his name was Nowotny or Hitler, he should not be moved!!
In some ppl thinking, if you get stucked under a regime that is disliked he should either defect or refuse to fight.
Also, someone said that a hero is the one that fought for the right cause. Someone said that if you are good a t killing(and implicit you enjoy it ) you are not a hero. This is partialy correct. Remember Stalingrad? What happened with the prisoners from 6th Pz Army, and the Romanian soldiers that fought along with them after they got captured??? I'l tell you. They were simply KILLED, but how? they WERE SHOT AND THROWN UNDER THE TANKS !!!! So the rusian soldiers (there) fought for the right cause= they were heroes..but.. They did what they did(i won't mention it again)=they were not heroes. How's that????
Eacy person has his own value sistem, so you can't interpret his actions from YOUR point of view.
What is for some ppl wrong, for the other is the most correct thing possible.
Tell me then who is a hero?

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 01:17 AM
Ace2B wrote:

- It's not the job of a soldier to think about there
- orders.

Wrong. A soldier has no duty to obey unlawful orders.



- They are trained not to think but to do!.

Indeed the SS was trained act in this manner. Hitler said, "Act brutally, and close your hearts to pity." And they did.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 01:48 AM
he was a soldier,who died fighting...nuff said.f@#king politicians like to rewrite history.unbelievable.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:06 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
-.- Also, someone said that a hero is the one that
- fought for the right cause. Someone said that if you
- are good a t killing(and implicit you enjoy it ) you
- are not a hero. This is partialy correct. Remember
- Stalingrad? What happened with the prisoners from
- 6th Pz Army, and the Romanian soldiers that fought
- along with them after they got captured??? I'l tell
- you. They were simply KILLED, but how? they WERE
- SHOT AND THROWN UNDER THE TANKS !!!! So the rusian
- soldiers (there) fought for the right cause= they
- were heroes..but.. They did what they did(i won't
- mention it again)=they were not heroes. How's
- that????

They were heroes- up until the moment they were encouraged to behave like savages- no doubt in response to the savagery they had endured. It's human nature, unfortunately, to forget the 'quality of mercy' when the vanquished themselves gave no quarter.
Can there be heroes in a war of annihilation? Only amongst those who sought to ease suffering.

- Eacy person has his own value sistem, so you can't
- interpret his actions from YOUR point of view.

.Tell me then who is a hero?
.
You presumably believe all value systems to be equal. I don't. Western civilisation is built on the Christian principles of tolerance, understanding, forebearance, magnanimity, provision for the meek and mild et al (I'm not a religious person but I recognise the truth of that assertion). Those things are ingrained in democratic society, which is why Hitler, as a social Darwinist, regarded democracies as weak. Nazism explicitly rejected all of those tenets, hence Mr Churchill in 1940: "We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind... upon which the fate of Christian civilisation may depend." He was not wrong.
Communism rejects some of those principles but does at least pay lip service to 'equality'. The lesser of two evils?

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:11 AM
Stewbie wrote:
You presumably believe all value systems to be
- equal. I don't. Western civilisation is built on the
- Christian principles of tolerance, understanding...

If you would read carefully, you could see that actualy I DON'T consider all value sistems to be equal, it would be illogical!

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:18 AM
this is getting a wee bit off topic

one could comment on the outragous assumption that self serving christian/capitalist/democracy somehow occupy the moral high ground but this is not the place for it

the question is should a Politician be allowed to dishonour a soldier because his grandfather was shotdown by that man 60 years ago

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:26 AM
Von_Zero wrote:

- If you would read carefully, you could see that
- actualy I DON'T consider all value sistems to be
- equal, it would be illogical!



Well said, Spock.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:48 AM
I'm sorry Cuski and Prik, but I disagree. "Unless you were there you have no idea what it is like." Of course, I never pretended to know, none of us should. But alot of Germans did defect because they did not believe what they were fighting for, and some of them did make sacrifices. And alot of them were pilots because they simply could fly away. I agree this would have been a much more difficult situation for the average ground troop. And if you think that soldiers and pilots had no idea what was going on, then I say you watch too many "X-files" programs. I am neither young, nor do I watch Holywood movies with any frequency. In fact I can't stand the "hero" type movies because they are unrealistic.



PriK wrote:
- No offense meant, Kyrule but I would guess that you
- are either fairly young or have a tendency to watch
- a lot of Hollywood movies.

I think you were trying to be a smart a$$, but that is beside the point.


I'm just trying to illustrate the
- point a bit better so you can maybe challenge your
- black & white ideology. Real life has a way of
- being significantly more complicated than that even.

Don't pretend to know anything about my ideology, you presume too much and need to read more carefully. I could resort to ignorant comments like yourself but I will not do so. Sorry if someone posting their opinion upsets you.

I stated in my first post that this was a very tough/complicated situation (see: gray area). I did say that I understand those you fought when Germany was under attack. I did say that I doubt I would have had the courage to refuse to fight out of fear of Nazi punishment, but I MAY have tried to defect. Do you honestly think they threatened to kill evryone's family if they defected? I think you are watching too many movies. Do you think with a war on two fronts going on that they had the time to investigate whether a soldier defected or not, and then would take the time to track down his family and kill them all? That sounds Hollywood to me. If someone disappeared on a mission they would have likely presumed he was shot down, not that he defected. There are far more accounts of Germans surrendering on purpose or defecting than of SS troops bursting into the homes of families and slaughtering everyone because it was suspected that their husband/father defected. If someone had the courage to defect, it would take a tremendous amount of thought and consideration, as evidenced by some of the more elaborate schemes in doing so. And when I said everyone has a choice, that is a fact. Having said that, I myself probably would have went down the exact same path as Nowotny, but that would have been my choice. Like I said before, I am not the stuff of heroes, and neither was Nowotny. I'm not saying these people should be seen as cowards or anything of the sort, just that they should not be seen as heroes. Remember, we are looking at history in retrospect.

But I agree with one thing, there are so many variables to consider that it makes any conclusions difficult. As I said, only the people close to him know what kind of person he really was. I don't pretend to have the answer, none of us should. You missed the point of my post though, and that is because Nowotny fought (willingly or unwillingly) for a twisted regime he should not be considered a hero, this IS Black and White. His skill as a pilot should have no bearing on his consideration as a hero. He could have been considered a hero by Nazis alone, as his skill furthered their cause. I am not passing judgement on him, I may have very well mirrored his actions (except I would have likely been a lousy pilot). And again, I disagree with what they are proposing to do, they should just let a fallen soldier rest. For thats what he was, a fallen soldier for a regime that is better forgotten.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:03 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Ace2B wrote:
-
-- It's not the job of a soldier to think about there
-- orders.
-
- Wrong. A soldier has no duty to obey unlawful
- orders.
-
-
-
-
-- They are trained not to think but to do!.
-
- Indeed the SS was trained act in this manner.
- Hitler said, "Act brutally, and close your hearts to
- pity." And they did.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp
-
- <img

100% agree. Only one who lacks the moral fiber, courage if you like, to disregard an unlawful order will follow it.

As far as Nowotny goes. His grave is not being moved, the State has changed its designation. Now the family will pay for the upkeep. So what. It is Austria's right to do that. If you are really concerned about it, set up a fund to provide money to care for it.

A hero? He was a soldier who did his job. A job that involved killing young men who were defending their country from a brutal regime bent on domination. A good pilot? Yes,
No question. Deserving of an honor grave alonside Resistance Fighters who fought against the regime that Nowotny fought for,and who swore unconditional obedience to its leader? No.
-
-





Message Edited on 07/15/0302:06AM by Iris47

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:05 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
the point of my post though, and that is
- because Nowotny fought (willingly or unwillingly)
- for a twisted regime he should not be considered a
- hero, this IS Black and White.
You are too imature!
What if Nowotny fought for a twisted Regime?? He wasn't resposible for any of the nazi's actions.
Extrapolating what you and some other ppl here are sying, Rudel was a war Criminal!?!?!
No offense, but it's total BS!


"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:15 AM
Von_Zero wrote:


- What if Nowotny fought for a twisted Regime?? He
- wasn't resposible for any of the nazi's actions.

He wasn't responsible for any of the Nazi's actions? My friend, the Nazi party would have been powerless but for men like Nowotny. He, and they, pulled the trigger on behalf of the Nazi party.



- Extrapolating what you and some other ppl here are
- sying, Rudel was a war Criminal!?!?!
-
- No offense, but it's total BS!

I don't know if Nowotny, or Rudel for that matter, committed any acts that would qualify him as a war criminal. But her certainly waged war on behalf of the Nazis.


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:25 AM
Von Zero, I am too immature? What are you talking about? How am I being immature in any way, shape, or form? Some of you need serious help because you are seeing things that are not there. Like I said before, sorry if someone posting their opinion upsets you. But I am certainly being mature about it, you on the other hand are not. Any reader with half a brain can see that.

Did you even read my post? I never said that Nowotny should be judged, but his actions DID further the Nazi cause. Again, we have the benefit of seeing history in retrospect.

Von_Zero wrote:

"Extrapolating what you and some other ppl here are
- sying, Rudel was a war Criminal!?!?!"

Come on, at least take the time to read my post before responding. I never even hinted that Nowotny was a war criminal, in fact I said that I may have done the same as he. I said that he fought on the side of war criminals, willingly or unwillingly. I said that he should not be judged as a person, as there are too many variables. My comments were in regard to his consideration as a war hero.

As an example, Gunther Rall is still alive and he seems like a very nice guy. If I were to meet him I would shake his hand and feel no ill will towards him. I respect his ability as a pilot, unfortunately he was a pawn of a terrible regime. He would probably be the first to tell you this. When he dies I don't think they should disturb his grave, ever. I don't think he should be judged, looked down upon, or be seen as a war criminal. However, I do not think he should be considered a hero based on the fact that he fought (willingly or unwillingly) on the side of the Germans. This is not a shot at the man himself, it is just the circumstances of history. His actions did not further the cause of what was just and right. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend or accept?



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:28 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Von_Zero wrote:
-
-
-- What if Nowotny fought for a twisted Regime?? He
-- wasn't resposible for any of the nazi's actions.
-
- He wasn't responsible for any of the Nazi's actions?
- My friend, the Nazi party would have ....
I din't expressed correctly.Sorry.
To give another example: On the eastern front, there were many cases of pilots to land in the enemy territory, sometimes defieying any danger, just to pick fellow airmen, wich were shot down. Isn't that heroism?? Nobody can say NO!
Then could that bravery acts be shadowed by some others lawless ppl like some nazis???

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:33 AM
Kyrule, I'm not gonna argue with you, you don't seem to understand where i'm getting. Maybe the post above will make you comprehend what I am reffering to.

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:39 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
- I din't expressed correctly.Sorry.
-
- To give another example: On the eastern front,
- there were many cases of pilots to land in the enemy
- territory, sometimes defieying any danger, just to
- pick fellow airmen, wich were shot down. Isn't that
- heroism?? Nobody can say NO!
-
- Then could that bravery acts be shadowed by some
- others lawless ppl like some nazis???


Oh, I agree with you. I'm sure that acts of bravery and heroism that transcended the Nazi party were very common.

But even so, it is impossible to ignore the fact that the war would have been possbile had it not been for the average soldier that followed his leader and committed acts of moral turpitude on his behalf.


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:41 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- But even so, it is impossible to ignore the fact
- that the war would have been possbile had it not
- been for the average soldier that followed his
- leader and committed acts of moral turpitude on his
- behalf.


War wouldn't be possible at all without that, actually.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:58 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
But even so, it is impossible to ignore the fact
- that the war would have been possbile had it not
- been for the average soldier that followed his
- leader and committed acts of moral turpitude on his
- behalf.

Fair, that's due to High Command, cuz I doubt that the simple soldier could have reasons to fight a war just "like that"
The part with fighting along the wrong side is inadequate, IMO, nobody awakes in the morning jus to climb in a plane and cannon any enemy spotted in the air just to satisfie his pleasure.
This is Inadequate cuz the Finns and Romanians enterd in the war along the Germans just to recover territories stollen by the russians in '39 and'40. So at least in what concernes them in the first part of the was, THEY were fighting for the right cause.
The fact that they continued to fight after they realized the cause, that's something else. But at least the Romanians had an excuse....

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:00 AM
Michcich_303 wrote:
- That`s what I expected - flaming and confusion.
- You guys are now going to add million things I have
- never said.
-
- I am not blaming Nowotny for doing what he did. I do
- not suggest he was a war criminal or nazi. I am
- simply saying that carrying the orders does not turn
- you into a HERO. <rest sniped>

I would really like to know something from you. What is YOUR defention of a HERO exactly?

Have you ever served in the military?

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:08 AM
I keep seeing reference to a "right" and "wrong side of the war" etc.

There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG side in war. Both sides had their own beliefs and reasons to go to war.

If you looked at what happened to Germany right after WWI you would understand the position it was put in. All you have to do is look at history.

Even the biased history books of today can make it plain as day that WWII could have been prevented by the allies had they not tried to starve the Germany people to death after WWI.

Old wounds heals slow and people tend to not forget. It pi$$es me off to constantly see this "we were right" BS posted here as there was no "right side". There was only a side that won and a side that lost. Some of you people need a reality check.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:14 AM
I don't know who this Nowotny guy is, but he sounds pretty noteworthy.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:15 AM
GonzoX wrote:
- I keep seeing reference to a "right" and "wrong side
- of the war" etc. ...
I write that just to make some ppl to addmit a thing, and those ppl call "the right side" the alies, was just a term of speaking, that all....

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:19 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I don't know who this Nowotny guy is, but he sounds
- pretty noteworthy.
RBJ, why you always have to be the smata$$ that is BSing everyone??
Ah, you're the ace....

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:28 AM
I assume that those who say anyone htat opposed the US and other allies in World War II was evil would also agree with the Russian treatment of Hartman as a war criminal ...



"The Soviet government wanted to put Hartmann on trial as a war criminal. In this case he would be deprived of his prisoner of war status. This would also push all international conventions away from him. As a result, there were three major allegations: the destruction of 345 planes of the Red Army, the destruction of a bakery on the outskirts of Smolensk and the elimination of 700 civilians (Hartmann shot them from his plane near the city of Bryansk). Erich Hartmann agreed with the first part of the indictment, but rejected all others. He claimed that his military unit did not conduct any military actions either in Smolensk or Bryansk. To crown it all, he said that it was impossible to kill 700 people from a plane.

The trial took place in December of 1949. Erich was sentenced to 25 years of imprisonment. After the mentioned rebellion, his imprisonment term became 25 years longer. Erich-s wife and mother wrote letter after letter to the Soviet government, begging for Hartmann-s release. In her 51st letter to Stalin Erich-s mother, Elizabeth Hartmann, promised that she would make her son swear that he would never take any participation in the actions against the USSR. She said that she would make him lead peaceful and quiet life.

Frau Hartmann found great help on the part of the new German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer. During his visit to Moscow in 1955, Adenauer asked the Soviet government to release German captives. The new Soviet government did not wish to aggravate the relations with Germany. It was decided to fulfil the German Chancellor-s request, taking into consideration the fact that Germany offered very good loans in return.

Erich Hartmann returned home in the autumn of 1955. "

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:35 AM
That's well known fact, but Ididn't know about the part withth bakey and..700 PPL?? That's way too exagerated.

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:48 AM
I rarely if ever, comment in threads like this, several reasons make it so but what the hell.

Regardless of all of our opinions, people are making a distinction some where along the way over a certain pilots political (if any ) leanings.

The dichotmony that exists among all of us is the acceptance of people due to their attributes. By that I mean it;s easier to like someone if they where paticualarly good at something we admire. At the same time, we feel repelled by the possibility of them being in some way tainted in another aspect of their existence, be it politics or otherwise.

I tend to think that the whole thing is (as people said in the 1st 2 pages of this thread) poorly led revisionism on behalf of the Austrian Govt.

Let the dead lie is a theme that recurs here, in my opinion it's the best way. Austria cannot deny at least some compliance in what the Nazi's did. Disenterring the ashes of a long dead pilot won't wipe away the fact.


Meantime, in this forum people are getting quite upset over misunderstood terms of phrase. Some people are looking quite right wing and others left, when mostly, and as far as I can tell, the whole purpose of the thread initially was to be aware of a sad event that happening to the remains of a Soldier.

So ther you go, My tuppence, 2 cents, 2000 lire, X amount of rupees,







<center>
http://blankgiro.freewebspace.com/IL2/soapy112th.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 06:13 AM
Salute

I've posted this before, but in case people may be wondering why it is that those who fought on the side of the Nazis in WWII are not regarded well, some figures on deaths during WWII:



Allied Nations


Country--------Military--------Civilian---------Total


Soviet Union---8,668,000-------16,900,000-------25,568,000

Poland-----------850,000--------6,000,000--------6,850,000

Yugoslavia-------300,000--------1,400,000--------1,700,000

France-----------340,000----------470,000----------810,000

Greece---------------------------------------------520,000

Czechoslovakia-------------------------------------400,000

Great Britain----326,000-----------62,000----------388,000

USA--------------295,000---------------------------295,000

Holland-----------14,000----------236,000----------250,000

Belgium-----------10,000-----------75,000-----------85,000

Canada------------42,000----------------------------42,000

India-------------36,000----------------------------36,000

Australia---------29,000----------------------------29,000

New Zealand-------12,000----------------------------12,000

South Africa-------9,000-----------------------------9,000

Norway-------------5,000-----------------------------5,000

Denmark------------4,000-----------------------------4,000


Total---------10,940,000-------25,143,000-------36,083,000


Civilian Casualties in occupied countries came mainly from Nazi Jewish Extermination programs as well as the exportation of Civilians to Germany for Slave Labour. In the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, besides the killing of Jews, a very large number of Civilian casualties came from so called "Anti Partisan" Operations conducted in German occupied territory. In countries which were occupied by the Germans at the start of the War, Civilian casualties exceeded Military.



Axis Nations


Country---------Military--------Civilian---------Total


Germany--------3,250,000--------3,810,000*-------7,060,000

Rumania----------520,000----------465,000*---------985,000

Hungary--------------------------------------------750,000*

Austria----------380,000----------145,000*---------525,000

Italy------------330,000-----------80,000*---------410,000

Finland-----------79,000----------------------------79,000

Bulgaria----------19,000-----------16,000*----------21,000


Total----------4,578,000--------4,516,000*-------9,094,000


* Figures for Civilian deaths include Jews killed by Nazi Extermination Programs, as well as other opponents of the Nazi regime. Most other non Jewish German Civilian casualties were caused by Allied Bombing.


Holocaust Deaths


Number of Jews killed by Nazi Extermination Programs in WWII


Poland 3,000,000

Soviet Union 1,252,000

Baltic countries 228,000

Germany/Austria 210,000

Czech Protectorate 80,000

Slovakia 75,000

Greece 54,000

The Netherlands 105,000

Hungary 450,000

Belgium 40,000

Yugoslavia 26,000

Romania 300,000

Norway 900

France 90,000

Bulgaria 14,000

Italy 8,000

Luxembourg 1,000


TOTAL 5,933,900



Spain had volunteers on both sides. Civilian casualties are from Concentration camps.

Spain-------------12,000-----------10,000-----------22,000



Nations which exclusively participated in Pacific War


China----------1,324,000-------10,000,000*------11,324,000

Japan----------1,506,000----------300,000--------1,806,000

*estimated


Sources:

Alan Bullock - "Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives"

The Times Atlas of the Second World War

Richard Overy - "Russia's War"


Dawidowicz, "The War Against the Jews"

Hilberg, "The Destruction of the European Jews"

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 06:29 AM
Buzzshaw most of the world is aware at the moment that the British and US populations have been conned by the ame idealitic jingoistic propoganda as the Germans were, and furhtermore there is a distinct possibility that Britain and the US will eventually commit very similiar atrocities in the name of "freedom" ...... but nobody currently is labelling British and US citizens as "evil" .. rational people just see them as sadly misled.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 06:41 AM
Von Zero, apparently you are not comprehending my posts either. I'm not going to argue with you anymore, let me just say there is a difference between acts of bravery (which certainly existed on all sides), and being a hero. Subjectively, Nowotny was a hero to some. Objectively, he was not a hero. We may have different points of view, and that is fine. Afterall, we have freedom of speech thanks to those who opposed the Nazi regime and its soldiers. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sorry couldn't resist. But seriously, you have your view and I have mine. No problem, its cool. At least we agree that Nowotny's grave should be left alone and that was the topic of this thread.

Oh, and RafBuzzsaw, thanks for posting those numbers. Pretty sobering. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
Ihad no idea the Poles and Yugoslavians suffered such tremendous losses. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Cheers!

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg



Message Edited on 07/15/0305:44AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 08:57 AM
Finland with the Axis nations!!!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

It was just a small country which fought bravely to survive against the Soviet attacking forces, but certainly not an "axis" nation (just an example, the Jewish people was perfectly protected by the Finish authorities)!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:48 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- I'm sorry Cuski and Prik, but I disagree. "

<snip>

- You
- missed the point of my post though, and that is
- because Nowotny fought (willingly or unwillingly)
- for a twisted regime he should not be considered a
- hero, this IS Black and White. His skill as a pilot
- should have no bearing on his consideration as a
- hero.

....and other good stuff.

Well said, and thank you. This is one of the most thoughtful posts in this thread.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:56 AM
GonzoX wrote:
- It pi$$es me off to constantly see this "we were
- right" BS posted here as there was no "right side".
- There was only a side that won and a side that lost.
- Some of you people need a reality check.

Do you really believe that Nazi Germany, with its holocaust of the Jews, its murderous secret police and its grotesque idea that most of its neighbours were in some way subhuman was a moral equivalent to the democracy offered by Britain and the US?

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:34 AM
SkyChimp wrote:

- Oh, I agree with you. I'm sure that acts of bravery
- and heroism that transcended the Nazi party were
- very common.
-
- But even so, it is impossible to ignore the fact
- that the war would have been possbile had it not
- been for the average soldier that followed his
- leader and committed acts of moral turpitude on his
- behalf.

Like Hiroshima? (no offence)

People always reffer what they would have done if they would been in the same situation. I have many time heard these moralist that are so horrified about the war, that they have so high moral that they would sacrifice them selves before them all. I deeply doubt it. They forgot, that thinking at home, sitting front of the computer is totally different if your choices are to shoot them, or take place on the line next to them. War doesn't have anything to do with moral.There's no such thing in the war.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:23 AM
Harbo wrote:
-
- War doesn't have anything to
- do with moral.There's no such thing in the war.
-
-
-

So rounding up civilians, putting them in a church and burning it down is ok if there's a war on then? War may not be moral, but you don't have to abandon all morals to fight one.

Since the earliest times men have sought ways of reducing the suffering in war, by laying down 'acceptable' codes of conduct. Naturally, since the earliest times there have been bastards who totally ignored them and delighted in the freedom war gave them to behave sadisticly. Arguing there are no morals in war is generally the excuse they come up with too.

Kyrule, I thought you explained yourself perfectly the first time. None of the criticism said anything you hadn't already answered.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:44 AM
regardless of anyones politics, this guy probably has family, digging him up will provoke unecessary reaction from across the political spectrum (look at this board) and he died 60 years ago, let him lie. this is so pointless. plus if anyone has noticed, if he did commit any war crimes then it could be argued that he paid for them with his life, fighting in that same war.

Let sleeping dogs lie

fluke39
07-15-2003, 11:46 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I don't know who this Nowotny guy is, but he sounds
- pretty noteworthy.
-


Is this proof RBJ does not own a copy of IL2 or FB ?

Nowotny crops up in both does he not? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/ffluke.jpg>

Zayets
07-15-2003, 12:00 PM
fluke39 wrote:

- Is this proof RBJ does not own a copy of IL2 or FB ?


I told ya he never knew what a heck he's talkin' about. The man didn't even bothered to buy the game coz he knows with his 486 DX 33 MHz the game would refuse to open. We still waiting for his tracks but it will take a while because:
1) He must buy a computer
2) He must buy the game
3) He must learn to fly.

Until then , we will be forced to read his posts , sometimes funny but always full of crapp. RBJ , make yourself useful meanwhile , for example , explain us some ace maneuvers , but bear in mind that I will check if you copied from some ww2 ace stories.

Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 12:02 PM
ok Iam going to say something and i know it wont change a thing just my 2 cents.

I am from the USA and I have relatives in germany.

I have two great uncles who fought on the german side. one who was captured and sent to a prison camp in minnasota. and the other was captured and placed in a russian camp.

I have three great uncles who fought for the USA. one captured and placed in a german camp, one captured and placed in a japanese camp, and the other was killed in france.

so I have heard many interesting storys from many different sides.

one of my uncles in germany manned an antiaircraft guns in ziel germany. this area is fairly politacly isolated but was in a strategic location and was heavaly bombed. he disagreed with the nazi party but he requested to be stationed near his family so he could protect them. his attatude was for every bomber he shot down there were 50 fewer bombs that landed on his family. I dont consider him to be a nazi.

in fact from what he told me very few of the solders were technically Nazis. he said that to become a member of the party you had to undergo such strict family background checks that few would pass. he didnt wear the swastica armband that we see in the movies, he was infact spacificaly told that he was not to wear one if he did not become a member of the nazi party.

it wasnt until after he was captured that he learned about the horrible acts of the nazi controled government. many of the solders had no idea what was realy going on. after he found out he became terrably depressed, but he had no way to know. there is a great amount of guilt in germany about what happened during the war, but many had no Idea what was going on.

not all germans were nazis and not all of the allies were saints. people are people good and bad on all sides. they were all fighting for thier own and thier families survival.

let the dead rest, out of respect for thier lives.






http://www.seanruppert.com/josh/porcopine.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:14 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
the point of my post though, and that is
- because Nowotny fought (willingly or unwillingly)
- for a twisted regime he should not be considered a
- hero, this IS Black and White.

von Zero wrote:
You are too imature!
What if Nowotny fought for a twisted Regime?? He wasn't resposible for any of the nazi's actions.
Extrapolating what you and some other ppl here are sying, Rudel was a war Criminal!?!?!
No offense, but it's total BS!

-------------------------------

Stop that foolish propaganda von Zero - across your posts you sound like you hardly condemn Nazi regime at all...

Rudel was a stupid nazi bast..rd just like Helmut Wick. The latter was stupid enough to tell newspaper his biggest dream was to die for his nazi country. Luckily he was not to wait long for his dreams come true - as he`s been sent to hell by a RAF in Nov `40 already.

Rudel survived the war and helped dr. Mengele escape in Argentina. So what that he was brave and great pilot. On equal, he might have been gifted accountant or carpenter - I wouldn`t give a shyt about such a MORON anyway.



"The show must go on..."

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 02:20 PM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Ace2B wrote:
-
-- It's not the job of a soldier to think about there
-- orders.
-
- Wrong. A soldier has no duty to obey unlawful
- orders.
-
-
-
-
-- They are trained not to think but to do!.
-
- Indeed the SS was trained act in this manner.
- Hitler said, "Act brutally, and close your hearts to
- pity." And they did.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp

Soldiers of ALL nations, ARE trained not to think, but to DO !

That is the only way you will get infantry to charge across an open space into a hail of gunfire.

whether they deem their orders to be unlawful is another matter depending on the situation at hand AND on their knowledge of the bigger picture and consequences (aftermath) of their actions. Something that WWII soldiers had difficuly putting together in their circumstances.

What I meant by my comments was that Nowotny and anyone else in WWII not accused of any atrocity, should not be made into a polical pawn whether living or dead, or their actions questioned.

Regards,

Ace2B

- <img
- src="http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyC
- himp.jpg">
-
-

Zayets
07-15-2003, 02:34 PM
Michcich_303 wrote:
- kyrule2 wrote:
- the point of my post though, and that is
-- because Nowotny fought (willingly or unwillingly)
-- for a twisted regime he should not be considered a
-- hero, this IS Black and White.
-
- von Zero wrote:
- You are too imature!
- What if Nowotny fought for a twisted Regime?? He
- wasn't resposible for any of the nazi's actions.
- Extrapolating what you and some other ppl here are
- sying, Rudel was a war Criminal!?!?!
- No offense, but it's total BS!
-
--------------------------------
-
- Stop that foolish propaganda von Zero - across your
- posts you sound like you hardly condemn Nazi regime
- at all...
-
- Rudel was a stupid nazi bast..rd just like Helmut
- Wick. The latter was stupid enough to tell newspaper
- his biggest dream was to die for his nazi country.
- Luckily he was not to wait long for his dreams come
- true - as he`s been sent to hell by a RAF in Nov `40
- already.
-
- Rudel survived the war and helped dr. Mengele escape
- in Argentina. So what that he was brave and great
- pilot. On equal, he might have been gifted
- accountant or carpenter - I wouldn`t give a shyt
- about such a MORON anyway.
-
-
-
- "The show must go on..."
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

And who gives a flyin' feck of what do you think Michcich_303? Seems to me that you did a passion for this thread. I wonder why da heck the mods don't delete it! There are many other person willful enough to revenge on Rudel , Nowotny , Hartmann , Richtoffen and the list goes on.Yes , they were heroes , at least to some they were heroes. British soldiers came to put an end to American revolution , Turks soldiers siegeing Vienna , French soldiers fighting for Napoleon against whole Europe. They all were heroes. Winners takes it all , this is the rule. They even have the right to write the history. A hero is somebody who's dying , or putting his life in peril for a cause. And if the cause is fighting for your country , that absolves all. SS troops? SA troops? Few of them fought really on the front line. They were criminals , maybe not all , but they were. We are talking here about a soldier , and a soldier is always a hero. Is not his fault that his leader was Hitler , Mussolini , Stalin. He fight for his country. Period.
Zayets out



http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:07 PM
http://members.chello.se/ven/behave.jpg


<table width="100%" border="0" align="center">
<tr>
<td colspan="2"><hr></td>
<td rowspan="2"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">http://members.chello.se/ven/duck.jpg</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="43%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Rubber Ducky, joy of joys,
When I squeeze you, you make noise!
Rubber Ducky, you're my very best friend,
it's true!

Rubber Ducky, you're the one,
You make bathtime lots of fun,
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font>
</td>
<td width="36%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Every day when I
make my way to the tubby
I find a little fella who's
Cute and yellow and chubby

Rubber Ducky, you're so fine
And I'm lucky that you're mine
Rubber ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font></td>
</tr>
</table>

Zayets
07-15-2003, 03:14 PM
why don't you lock it Ven? I think it will be the best.Or is just to distract attention from the real stuffs , like patch , lack of update from UBI , links to so called interviews and many others. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
Zayets out

http://www.emicad.nl/~justdoit/il2/logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:26 PM
Zayets wrote:

Winners takes it all.
---------------------------

Aren`t you simply a cynic ?

Resistance Fighters (for example) have given their lives in often much more atrocious circumstances than soldiers and more importantly - for much better cause. Do you really think they`re on the same level ?

On this topic of "winner takes it all" and "no good or bad side in WWII" - that`s a trademark of a fool in this forum, isn`t it ?

If you don`t give a "flying" feck about my posts then don`t read them.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:33 PM
Zayets wrote:
- why don't you lock it Ven? I think it will be the
- best.Or is just to distract attention from the real
- stuffs , like patch , lack of update from UBI ,
- links to so called interviews and many others.

This thread had some good discussions and argument but it turned out to be too sensitive of a subject.

Here's the chart from our mods stats page:



http://members.chello.se/ven/sour.jpg


<table width="100%" border="0" align="center">
<tr>
<td colspan="2"><hr></td>
<td rowspan="2"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">http://members.chello.se/ven/duck.jpg</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="43%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Rubber Ducky, joy of joys,
When I squeeze you, you make noise!
Rubber Ducky, you're my very best friend,
it's true!

Rubber Ducky, you're the one,
You make bathtime lots of fun,
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font>
</td>
<td width="36%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Every day when I
make my way to the tubby
I find a little fella who's
Cute and yellow and chubby

Rubber Ducky, you're so fine
And I'm lucky that you're mine
Rubber ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font></td>
</tr>
</table>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:43 PM
Kernow wrote:

- So rounding up civilians, putting them in a church
- and burning it down is ok if there's a war on then?
- War may not be moral, but you don't have to abandon
- all morals to fight one.

- Since the earliest times men have sought ways of
- reducing the suffering in war, by laying down
- 'acceptable' codes of conduct. Naturally, since the
- earliest times there have been bastards who totally
- ignored them and delighted in the freedom war gave
- them to behave sadisticly. Arguing there are no
- morals in war is generally the excuse they come up
- with too.

Agree. But what are we to judge those whose had to make choices. Kill or be killed? If soldier would have say: "No, I do not kill civilians" he would be killed for mutiny and perhaps for treason, collaborating with enemy.

Codes of conduct were introduced lieing on a fact that there is and will be wars, that nations will fight against each other. It was introduced to clear out the war. Ironically, during the late 19th when codes of conduct, international law of warfare were introduced, the main goal wasn't to prevent killing. It was to make it cheap as possible to nation. In the late 19th world was on course to the Great War. Everything was simply preparations to this.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:46 PM
Did you observe the same trend in FW-190 cockpit visibility thread ?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:49 PM
Yep.

How about me locking this thread?

Seems to me you guys just repeating same argument without convincing anyone.
All that can be said has been said.

<table width="100%" border="0" align="center">
<tr>
<td colspan="2"><hr></td>
<td rowspan="2"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">http://members.chello.se/ven/duck.jpg</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="43%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Rubber Ducky, joy of joys,
When I squeeze you, you make noise!
Rubber Ducky, you're my very best friend,
it's true!

Rubber Ducky, you're the one,
You make bathtime lots of fun,
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font>
</td>
<td width="36%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Every day when I
make my way to the tubby
I find a little fella who's
Cute and yellow and chubby

Rubber Ducky, you're so fine
And I'm lucky that you're mine
Rubber ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font></td>
</tr>
</table>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:54 PM
Sure.
Just don`t make it look like you`re fulfilling Zayet`s request to punish me with the lock /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:55 PM
K, Locking.

Lets see if commie1 missed this one or if he'll get another IATL. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" align="center">
<tr>
<td colspan="2"><hr></td>
<td rowspan="2"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">http://members.chello.se/ven/duck.jpg</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="43%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Rubber Ducky, joy of joys,
When I squeeze you, you make noise!
Rubber Ducky, you're my very best friend,
it's true!

Rubber Ducky, you're the one,
You make bathtime lots of fun,
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font>
</td>
<td width="36%"><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Every day when I
make my way to the tubby
I find a little fella who's
Cute and yellow and chubby

Rubber Ducky, you're so fine
And I'm lucky that you're mine
Rubber ducky, I'm awfully fond of you.</font></td>
</tr>
</table>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 03:56 PM
Yes please, could you lock? As you say, everything's been said several times with increasing heat and decreasing light.