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Hans684
04-10-2014, 04:14 PM
To kickstart the topic.

The Assassins would stand and watch our world burn as long as itís our own choice.

JustPlainQuirky
04-10-2014, 04:27 PM
i'm indifferent. I think neither side is more justified than the other. It really depends on the circumstances whether order or freedom is more necessary.

I-Like-Pie45
04-10-2014, 04:29 PM
They're the heroes we deserve, but not the heroes we need right now.

Locopells
04-10-2014, 04:31 PM
The Templars are right, but they shouldn't be. Humanity needs to be educated to the point where neither side is necessary.

Sushiglutton
04-10-2014, 04:44 PM
Liberal democracy is the best form of government known. If you look at the governments we have visited in the games the direction the assassins have tried to steer them has been the correct one in order to make them more like liberal democracies.

dxsxhxcx
04-10-2014, 04:46 PM
To kickstart the topic.

The Assassins would stand and watch our world burn as long as it’s our own choice.

and I agree with them, we don't deserve more than that if we aren't able to achieve it by ourselves...

SchlechterWolf
04-10-2014, 05:36 PM
Always sad to see that humans can be so blasť about surrendering their free will.


It really depends on the circumstances whether order or freedom is more necessary.

Order and freedom are not two opposing ideals; they are not in conflict with each other.

The pursuit of 'order' does not necessitate the subjugation of humanity. Nor is 'order' guaranteed by subjugation. The freedom of humanity does not guarantee order either, but neither does it intrinsically precipitate chaos. The question one must answer when deciding whether one would side with the Templars or the Assassins is: 'Is it better to be ignorant, but innocent; or free, but capable of immorality?'

Any human who values their dignity and freedom will conclude that the establishment of 'order' through virtue and reason is far more attractive than forced ignorance and obedience. That is the Assassin's Creed.

To adhere to the Templar ideology is to unnaturally self-renounce one's very nature as a human. What man would willingly submit to any form of enslavement? Templar ideology is inherently taboo.

GreySkellig
04-10-2014, 06:46 PM
This really needs to be hashed out more in a game. They've been coyly hinting at "maybe there's a grey area" for several games now. All I'm saying, "Unity" had better refer to Templar/Assassin cooperation--or at least an attempt at such.

Hans684
04-10-2014, 07:39 PM
This really needs to be hashed out more in a game. They've been coyly hinting at "maybe there's a grey area" for several games now. All I'm saying, "Unity" had better refer to Templar/Assassin cooperation--or at least an attempt at such.

During Haytham's and Torres leadership the Templars have been shown in a good light. We're already in the gray area and Unity is going to push it further.

Ureh
04-10-2014, 10:43 PM
I think both sides are necessary. Their conflict maintains the delicate balance right? :P If either one of them wins, it could be disastrous (most certainly if Templars won). I wouldn't mind a world of rainbows and butterflies but who knows if that's guaranteed to happen if the Assassins defeated them.

But I guess the conflict seems to be favoring the Templars now since most of the Assassins are gone. The Assassins have some recruiting to do.

Jexx21
04-10-2014, 11:17 PM
Most of the Assassins are gone in the colonies, there's most likely a good-sized order still left in Europe.

SixKeys
04-10-2014, 11:47 PM
"Our creed does not command us to be free; it commands us to be wise."

"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization."

These quotes don't suggest idly standing by and watching as the world burns as a consequence of our choices. Being a shepherd suggests gently guiding people away from cliffs, not forcibly keeping them in check by painful branding. Assassins are not opposed to all forms of order, they have always had a hand in supplanting people who share their ideals into governments instead of advocating total anarchy. Templars are short-sighted because they are cynical. They can only see the world as it currently is and cannot conceive of a better one. "All we need is that the world be as it is." Assassins are more idealistic and willing to work for those ideals, whereas Templars are people who have grown tired of fighting for the future and want to halt mankind's progress. They're like overbearing parents who think the world is too cruel and dangerous for their children, so they try to stop the child's growth and keep them locked safely inside forever. The child may indeed venture too close to fire one day and burn him/herself, but it's the only way to learn from their mistakes.

Jexx21
04-10-2014, 11:56 PM
"We take the world as it is, not as we would like it to be." Nick Fury, Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. from Captain America: The Winter Soldier


SHIELD is Abstergo?! O.o

I-Like-Pie45
04-11-2014, 12:47 AM
that explains things

but what would that make HYDRA?

Jexx21
04-11-2014, 12:49 AM
I was avoiding mentioning HYDRA.

I-Like-Pie45
04-11-2014, 03:10 PM
Basically

The Beatles are the Templars cuz even though these FF ****ers are dropping like flies or saddled with insignificant solo careers like the destruction of various Templar Rites, they will never be defeated due to their influence on the world

Pink Floyd were the Assassins but now they're gone and nobody cares anymore about PF - just like Ubisoft no longer cares about the modern day Assassins' story, relegating it to bit parts in the games and Initiates

The Rolling Stones are obviously Erudito, with even less people who care than those who care about PF just like how Ubisoft doesn't care about using Erudito meaningfully in the plotline

da_fonze00
04-12-2014, 03:07 AM
Anyone else? I honestly think that Abstergo and the Templars are working towards a better goal than the Assassins.

SixKeys
04-12-2014, 03:17 AM
The two factions' goals are the same (world peace), so you can't say one is better than the other. The means by which they aim to get there makes the difference. Templars aim to force all people to their side via mind control, manipulation and violence. If you're okay with that, all I can say is you'd probably feel right at home in North Korea.

JustPlainQuirky
04-12-2014, 03:19 AM
Everyone has goals of peace.

What matters is how they do it.

That's why I affiliate myself with no one but myself.

da_fonze00
04-12-2014, 04:37 AM
There goals aren't the same. The Templars seek to save humanity from itself by controlling free will. The Assassins seek to ensure the survival of free will despite how dangerous it can be.

EricMinchey
04-12-2014, 04:46 AM
Although the Templars have the money, power, & a noble goal to create a perfect world I believe their goal & interpretation thereof - emphasizing purpose, order and control, over the freedom of individuals to be wrong just think how boring a perfect world would be It's the imperfections that make the world what it is. Also no amount of money & power is worth losing your humanity & free will over as Ezio said in AC2 "We don't need anyone to tell us what to do; We are free to follow our own path. it is our ability to choose – that makes us human" & if they were to use an Apple of Eden to hypnotize us into believing this to be a perfect world that would still be wrong because we would be slaves to their spell "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?"

Hans684
04-12-2014, 08:23 AM
The means by which they aim to get there makes the difference. Templars aim to force all people to their side via mind control, manipulation and violence.

Not that different, Erudito commented that "they are more a like than they think."

The Templars have control as means to reach a new world(world peace). But how do they control? By doing the same as the assassin. Both manipulate, use violence and mind control. The Templars with the most peaceful way of control is the Caribbean Templars during the leadership of Laureano de Torres y Ayala. The Crystal Skulls combined with a vial of with a drop of blood is hardly a dangerous way of controlling compared to The Apple Of Eden. They would be the NSA(Caribbean Templars) back in the day if they succeeded. Sure they would blackmail and sabotage but the assassins is no different there either. Before the Borgia's the Templars aim for world peace was control by any means but the Borgia family took advantage of that to further their own selfish goals, that lead to the Age of Reason.

"There will come a day in which men no longer cheat each other. And on that day we will see what mankind is truly capable of."
―Giovanni Auditore.

The Crystal Skull and blood Vial would allow just that in a more peaceful way.

Both has started wars, Connor started(and ended) the AR, the Templars started(and controlled) WW2. Both has made use of innocents, Ezio caused a riot that reduced the entire market district outside of the gates to Constantinople's arsenal to ruins, simply to infiltrate the arsenal and eavesdrop on information and caused a massive explosion in the underground city of Cappadocia, indirectly killing or injuring a large portion of the population, simply to draw his target out into the open. And the Templars is responsible for The Boston Massacre. The Assassins also cooperated with dubious figures such as members of the House of Medici or Vladimir Lenin, or would spare the likes of TomŠs de Torquemada, simply because they were not Templars. And the Templars did the same with Hitler, they supported him.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Templars#Age_of_Reason

Age of Reason

Templars looked at the Renaissance as a dark time for the Order: while other men progressed humanity's knowledge, the 15th century Templars led by the debauched Borgia did not care for such ideals, using the Order as a platform to gain power and influence. By the 17th century, the Templars began adjusting their philosophy. Instead of making personal bids for powers, the Templars sought to influence rather than control the leaders and intellectuals of the new age.

Source: Encyclopedia. You know those Encyclopedias from Ubiworkshop.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
04-12-2014, 09:15 AM
Do you also vote Republican?

Boulder_Av
04-12-2014, 10:01 AM
I would support the Haythamesque Templars perhaps but not the Saturday morning cartoon villains ala the Borgia. I still wish that Connor and Haytham made peace and united the two orders for a period of time. AC3 missed on a ton of interesting story ideas Connor's ethnicity, the moving in of white settlers and so on but it did bit the nail right on the head when it came to presenting the two factions. I believe that the ending of AC3 should have involved the death of both Connor and Haytham at the hands of their own orders.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
04-12-2014, 10:38 AM
I would support the Haythamesque Templars perhaps but not the Saturday morning cartoon villains ala the Borgia. I still wish that Connor and Haytham made peace and united the two orders for a period of time. AC3 missed on a ton of interesting story ideas Connor's ethnicity, the moving in of white settlers and so on but it did bit the nail right on the head when it came to presenting the two factions. I believe that the ending of AC3 should have involved the death of both Connor and Haytham at the hands of their own orders.

I still don't support the Haythamesque Templars but at least they have some arguments to stand on.

datensystem
04-12-2014, 10:55 AM
Every templar says the same thing, freedom, but their vision of freedom is that they rule everyone and bring "freedom", the assassins vision of freedom is they let the people rule the country.

Hans684
04-12-2014, 12:22 PM
Every templar says the same thing, freedom, but their vision of freedom is that they rule everyone and bring "freedom", the assassins vision of freedom is they let the people rule the country.

There are several ways to rule and the assassins isn't any better either.

alientraveller
04-12-2014, 12:35 PM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/734/564/db0.jpg

GunnerGalactico
04-12-2014, 01:00 PM
I'm gonna remain neutral in this debate. Maybe from AC2 to Revelations- I sided with the Assassins. In AC3, I liked the idea of Ambiguity. I'm not really for or against the Assassins or Templars. They have the same or similar goals but different ways of achieving it. The Templars seek peace through order and control and the Assassins seek peace and freedom without any jurisdictions.

jayjay275
04-12-2014, 01:02 PM
I don't mind to be honest, whatever is better for the world.

Perk89
04-12-2014, 03:39 PM
Am i the only one who giggles when somebody comes here almost like weekly to give what they perceive as some cooler than cool "against the grain" hipster opinion about the Assassin'/Templar conflict that they believe nobody else shares and try to tout themselves as some advanced philosopher because they are being "different."



lol anyone who has taken even a basic college level philosophy or even psychology class can shoot the Templar ideology to pieces. that said, it doesn't even take that kind of basic intellect to know that desiring to *literally* control people's minds via technology is an unforgivable crime far worse than anything you could ever accuse the Assassins of.


You aren't "cool" because you're different. You aren't intellectually advanced. You're just a hipster e-putz who clearly doesn't quite understand the ideologies at play. and yes, as another poster said, you'd feel right at home in North Korea, though even that may not be "extreme" enough for your tastes given that Abstergo tries to actually control thought rather than just manipulate it.

Ureh
04-12-2014, 04:29 PM
That, and saying,"May the Father of Understanding guide you. Guide me. Brother U." after a tirade or letter is pretty cool. :P:)

May the Father of Understanding guide us.

da_fonze00
04-12-2014, 05:00 PM
Am i the only one who giggles when somebody comes here almost like weekly to give what they perceive as some cooler than cool "against the grain" hipster opinion about the Assassin'/Templar conflict that they believe nobody else shares and try to tout themselves as some advanced philosopher because they are being "different."

I hope you can get over it

Locopells
04-12-2014, 07:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/868350-How-is-your-view-on-the-Templars

monoman32
04-12-2014, 10:27 PM
Has anybody here read the Pendragon book series? This argument of freewill is the central plot of the series.

Wolfmeister1010
04-12-2014, 10:32 PM
I love being the bad guy. I have always been cast as the bad character in school plays as early as kindergarten lol. There is something so cool about it.

I would love it if there was an AC game where the templars "win" at the end. Because lets face it..the assassins have always "won" at the end of each game (in the historical part) but the templars are still going strong. Would it be such a bad idea for it to be reversed?

EricMinchey
04-16-2014, 04:10 AM
This really needs to be hashed out more in a game. They've been coyly hinting at "maybe there's a grey area" for several games now. All I'm saying, "Unity" had better refer to Templar/Assassin cooperation--or at least an attempt at such.

I don't believe Templar/Assassin cooperation is possible; To truly be free of Templar influence, all of them must be dealt with in turn. So long as they live, all are in danger. The Assassins understand what has to be done & swear to see it through. If not for the Brotherhood, for all those threatened by the Templars.

The Templars may listen. But will they understand? And even if they do, will they agree?

RinoTheBouncer
04-16-2014, 09:29 AM
I think there’s a lot of debate regarding morals and freedom and that’s when the debate starts about Templars and Assassins.

I’ll ask you a few questions and based on your answer, you will know if you’re with or against:

1. Do you believe in God?

If yes, then the morals that he put in religious books are true and there’s right and wrong and there is reward and punishment and that we have to do good things in order not to face bad consequences, afterwards.

If no, then there are no morals except for what we feel is right or wrong and that is variable from one person to another. A lot of people are “good" people whether they believe in a religion or not. They just do good things not to go to heaven or hell, but because they’re good things. In that case, doing good things is something that makes you feel better about yourself and makes people more appreciative of you and what you’ve done, even if you did not intend to gain their approval or admiration but solely for the doing the good deed.

However, when you die, non of that will matter. If there’s no life after this life, no God to judge, then whatever you do in this life does not matter. It only matters to you and to the people and if you decided not to care about the people and just wanted to rob a bank for example and live rich and you were a good thief that they couldn’t catch you, then you’re just gonna enjoy all the money you stole for example and after death, nothing will matter because there’s nobody to tell you why you did this or why you did that.

2. Do you think humans have free will?

In so many religions, we were told that humans were born free and always given the choice. Yes, there are consequences which might not even give you a choice but still a lot of religious people do things that are prohibited by religion and no supreme power is appearing right before them to say “DON’T DO IT”. It’s like school, you’re asked to do homework’s and study but if you didn’t study, nobody’s gonna hang you, you’re just gonna fail in the exam, so you still have a choice if school is important enough to make you do what it asks you or not.

On the other hand, humans have invented many laws, a lot of them are inspired by religions. Others are simply inspired by the good morals of humans. That will take us back to the first question. Do morals really matter? are there consequences? science tells us that humans are another species of the Animal Kingdom, so why is it ok for a Lion to kill a deer but it’s immoral and wrong of a human to kill another? I know we’re more evolved than they are but animals also have alliances and conflicts, sense of family and even love to one another. Yet they still follow the basic animal instincts and survival instincts that we too, have.

I know what I wrote above is a bit confusing or off topic but I’ll add more:

Now, if you’re a Templar, you want to control people in one way or another, stripping them of all or part of their God-given free will in order to maintain the greater good and do any means necessary to make sure everything goes according to plan, including killing people who disagree.

So now we ask another questions, if morals do exist, then the act of a human killing another, or controlling another is immoral, which means it’s wrong. Which means that attempting to control people, and stripping away their free will is an action that will lead to them going to hell after death for example.

If morals do not exist and are merely things we created in order to live together and non of that will matter afterwards, then who the hell cares? if Mr.X was a Templar and he could control people, so be it. There’s no judge to set things right after he’s dead. No matter how many people he kills, it’s not gonna change anything. He will have lived and died just as he wanted and others suffered and he did not care. Nothing is gonna compensate them nor punish him. Like a Lion killing a Dear, why does he do that? because he can. Because it wants to eat and its desire and need to eat surpasses its concern about whether this deer has little dears to take care of or wants to enjoy its life or it’ll get hurt by him or he should be merciful towards it.

Now about the Assassins, they believe in free will, they believe in freedom of beliefs, they believe each person should have the right to think what they want, do what they want, live however they want without hurting one another.

Now there’s another conflict, are the assassins hypocrites? if I have free will, then why am I not free to kill someone who’s standing in my way? if our free will should not affect others’ free will, then why do the assassins give themselves the freedom to kill those who oppose them when they, themselves preach about freedom and against controlling those who have different points of view?

As for the Templar’s aims, they want the good for mankind, in the end, despite all the horrible things they do in order to reach their goals. Sometimes, people do need to be controlled. A lot of people simply don’t know what they want and their behaviors affect other people. For example, a teenager often does reckless things and when they grow older, they realize how that negatively those actions impacted their lives, that’s why parents guide them and thats’ why there are some rules for people below 18, for example. Can that be applied for adults too?

Are the Templar leaders who control others qualified enough to tell you what’s right and what’s wrong? are they that perfect to be in charge of others? can their goal be good enough to justify killing others and stripping away from their freedom? is freedom worth sacrificing the utopia that the Templars aim to create? What does it feel like to be controlled by the Apple of Eden? hurt? happy? high? stoned? pressured? ecstatic?

So that’s my view on either side. It’s all complicated and I think it’s not possible to find one single definitive answer.

MasterAssasin84
04-16-2014, 01:59 PM
The Templars wanted a world that was stable and influenced progression for the human race ? i often think if the Templars was in control would the world be suffering ? would society dwindle in inferiority ?

The Assassins was on the Moral high ground ? if Man wanted to destroy the Earth it would be his choice regardless of the consequences.

I think Both sects expressed their convictions very well and in a sense strived for the same thing, but I think Haytham Kenway had the best analogy of freedom " Freedom is a Ticket to Chaos "

So no i dont think the Templars was completely wrong but then again neither was the Assassins, I just think that the conflict diverted their attentions to the real threat from which i believe both the Templars and the Assassins will be responsible for the demise of mankind.

EricMinchey
04-16-2014, 03:11 PM
Now about the Assassins, they believe in free will, they believe in freedom of beliefs, they believe each person should have the right to think what they want, do what they want, live however they want without hurting one another. Now there’s another conflict, are the assassins hypocrites? if I have free will, then why am I not free to kill someone who’s standing in my way? if our free will should not affect others’ free will, then why do the assassins give themselves the freedom to kill those who oppose them when they, themselves preach about freedom and against controlling those who have different points of view?

It's true that there are contradictions between the Creed, and the actions of the Assassins who follow it.

1. The Assassins seek to promote peace, but commit murder.

2. The Assassins seek to open the minds of men, but require obedience to rules.

3. The Assassins seek to reveal the danger of blind faith, yet practice it themselves.

Though seemingly hypocritical, these contradictions do not undermine the Assassins' cause. Rather, they demonstrate the way in which they embrace contradiction.

"I have no satisfactory answer to these charges, only possibilities... Do we bend the rules in service to a greater good? And if we do, what does it say of us? That we are liars? That we are frauds? That we are weak? Every moment is spent wrestling with these contradictions and in spite of all the years I've had to reflect, still I can find no suitable answer... And I fear that one may not exist. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Does our creed provide the answer, then? That one may be two things – opposite in every way – simultaneously? And why not? Am I not proof? We of noble intentions, possessed of barbaric means? We who celebrate the sanctity of life and then promptly take it from those we deem our enemies?"- AltaÔr Ibn-La'Ahad's Codex Page 4

AltaÔr Ibn-La'Ahad came to accept these contradictions as an unavoidable part of the Assassin's creed and principles, there's always an irony to what the Assassins do, but they embrace it as a sacrifice for the greater good. They let go of their lives to make others' lives better. They value freedom but are quick to silence Templars. Simplest way I can put it.

RinoTheBouncer
04-16-2014, 03:23 PM
It's true that there are contradictions between the Creed, and the actions of the Assassins who follow it.

1. The Assassins seek to promote peace, but commit murder.

2. The Assassins seek to open the minds of men, but require obedience to rules.

3. The Assassins seek to reveal the danger of blind faith, yet practice it themselves.

Though seemingly hypocritical, these contradictions do not undermine the Assassins' cause. Rather, they demonstrate the way in which they embrace contradiction.

"I have no satisfactory answer to these charges, only possibilities... Do we bend the rules in service to a greater good? And if we do, what does it say of us? That we are liars? That we are frauds? That we are weak? Every moment is spent wrestling with these contradictions and in spite of all the years I've had to reflect, still I can find no suitable answer... And I fear that one may not exist. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Does our creed provide the answer, then? That one may be two things – opposite in every way – simultaneously? And why not? Am I not proof? We of noble intentions, possessed of barbaric means? We who celebrate the sanctity of life and then promptly take it from those we deem our enemies?"- AltaÔr Ibn-La'Ahad's Codex Page 4

AltaÔr Ibn-La'Ahad came to accept these contradictions as an unavoidable part of the Assassin's creed and principles, there's always an irony to what the Assassins do, but they embrace it as a sacrifice for the greater good. They let go of their lives to make others' lives better. They value freedom but are quick to silence Templars. Simplest way I can put it.

Yeah, I wrote what I wrote about talking about the 3 ironies, or so they’re called. It’s like there will never be a definitive answer regarding free will and morals in real life or the Assassins and Templars in the games.