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View Full Version : Something that irked me about Altair's family and name..



Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 07:00 PM
Okay, so Altair's full, self given name is Altair Ibn La Ahad and that means "son of none" it's OBVIOUSLY not an actual name...like it's not even a family name, since we now know who his father was..but ACR goes on to actually make it his family name AND give it to his sons (at least they didn't give it to Maria too...that would'v been the stupidest thing ever)

This isn't how Arabic names work and I know i'm being picky, but that's not the first time that Ubi got lazy with something from the Middle east. In Damascus and Jerusalem, when Guards (most likely Muslims) are harassing scholars they say "We are the true children of god" It's obviously just a carry over from Acre's guards who are most likely Christians, so that phrase makes sense with them (even though the scholars in Acre are christian priests smh) but it makes 0 sense with the guards in Damascus and Jerusalem

Darim should be not be called Darim ibn la Ahad. he should be called Darim Ibn Altair Ibn Umar...

Anyone who thinks this is silly can go cry about it...yes...

Megas_Doux
03-24-2014, 07:08 PM
Laziness!

Interesting point by the way.

DumbGamerTag94
03-24-2014, 07:17 PM
The Muslim Allah is the exact same being as the Christian god so it makes sense if the Muslims are harassing and trying to offend a Christian to say that phrase. I don't see how it's inaccurate or lazy at all. Christians Muslims and Jews all have the same God. The difference is in the profits they follow.

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 07:20 PM
The Muslim Allah is the exact same being as the Christian god so it makes sense if the Muslims are harassing and trying to offend a Christian to say that phrase. I don't see how it's inaccurate or lazy at all. Christians Muslims and Jews all have the same God. The difference is in the profits they follow.
That's not it, it's the "Children" part that's wrong. We don't consider ourselves the children of god, Muslims believe that God has no children..like I said, It's a carryover from the guards in Acre...it's just like that with everything else...Merchants calling (they use the exact same phrases in Acre AND Damascus, except with different accents)

Kirokill
03-24-2014, 07:24 PM
The Muslim Allah is the exact same being as the Christian god so it makes sense if the Muslims are harassing and trying to offend a Christian to say that phrase. I don't see how it's inaccurate or lazy at all. Christians Muslims and Jews all have the same God. The difference is in the profits they follow.

I don't wanna go into religious discussion, but Muslims will find that phrase an insult to their belief. Due to what they follow says that God didn't birth or get birthed.

DumbGamerTag94
03-24-2014, 07:25 PM
That's not it, it's the "Children" part that's wrong. We don't consider ourselves the children of god, Muslims believe that God has no children..like I said, It's a carryover from the guards in Acre...it's just like that with everything else...Merchants calling (they use the exact same phrases in Acre AND Damascus, except with different accents)

Well for that matter us Christians don't refer to ourselves as children of god that is blasfemy the only child of god for us is Jesus. And the Jews do not believe in a "child of god". We do refer to ourselves as children of Abraham but not children of god. So for that matter it would be inaccurate for Acre too

Kaschra
03-24-2014, 07:31 PM
Yeah, I heard about that mistake, too.

Hm, what if Darim had a kid, what would their family name be?
"Name of the kid" Ibn Darim Ibn Altair Ibn Umar? Or is it always only the names of the father and grandfather?
Because else, the family name would get... really long after a few generations xD

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 07:32 PM
Well for that matter us Christians don't refer to ourselves as children of god that is blasfemy the only child of god for us is Jesus. And the Jews do not believe in a "child of god". We do refer to ourselves as children of Abraham but not children of god. So for that matter it would be inaccurate for Acre too
Really? doesn't Galatians 3:26 say "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith"?

Not trying to start an argument, just asking...I genuinely want to know..this could be another mistake on their part too

RatonhnhakeFan
03-24-2014, 07:34 PM
Sounds like a rather stupid mistake considering most people from ME could probably correct it in 5 seconds answer. Oh well, at least he wasn't given "John" nickname other characters referred to him through most of the game lol.

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 07:34 PM
Yeah, I heard about that mistake, too.

Hm, what if Darim had a kid, what would their family name be?
"Name of the kid" Ibn Darim Ibn Altair Ibn Umar? Or is it always only the names of the father and grandfather?
Because else, the family name would get... really long after a few generations xD
Just the father and Grandfather at that time...before, in the 400s, they used their whole generations' name, yeah xP

Kirokill
03-24-2014, 07:35 PM
Yeah, I heard about that mistake, too.

Hm, what if Darim had a kid, what would their family name be?
"Name of the kid" Ibn Darim Ibn Altair Ibn Umar? Or is it always only the names of the father and grandfather?
Because else, the family name would get... really long after a few generations xD

You don't really need to put all names in a chain. Like this
[Name of the kid] ibn Darim ibn Altair [Family Name]
Or even
[Name of the kid] ibn Darim [Family name]

RatonhnhakeFan
03-24-2014, 07:37 PM
Just the father and Grandfather at that time...before, in the 400s, they used their whole generations' name, yeah xP
Don't they still use it in Latino countried with those uber-long last names? xP

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 07:41 PM
Don't they still use it in Latino countried with those uber-long last names? xP
I think so? I'm not sure xD

RatonhnhakeFan
03-24-2014, 07:46 PM
Anyway, didn't we already knew he had asassin parents in AC1? So obviously not an orphan or anything?

DumbGamerTag94
03-24-2014, 07:47 PM
Really? doesn't Galatians 3:26 say "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith"?

Not trying to start an argument, just asking...I genuinely want to know..this could be another mistake on their part too

Through faith is the key of that passage it is referring to faith in Jesus and children is more in the metaphorical sense as in pupils or god's creation. Not his literal "children". To my knowledge as a Christian Gods children is often just used as a synonym for Gods creation. There may be other denominations that interperate that differently but as far as I know the majority off Christians only view Jesus as the only literal child/son of God. No offense taken by the way it's a fair question it's not like we are bashing people's faiths just clarifying what they believe

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 07:51 PM
Through faith is the key of that passage it is referring to faith in Jesus and children is more in the metaphorical sense as in pupils or god's creation. Not his literal "children". To my knowledge as a Christian Gods children is often just used as a synonym for Gods creation. There may be other denominations that interperate that differently but as far as I know the majority off Christians only view Jesus as the only literal child/son of God. No offense taken by the way it's a fair question it's not like we are bashing people's faiths just clarifying what they believe
Oh oh that makes sense then, thank you for explaining..


Anyway, didn't we already knew he had asassin parents in AC1? So obviously not an orphan or anything?
Yeah, but they gave him that nickname to emphasize his mysterious roots..

SixKeys
03-24-2014, 08:46 PM
Alta´r's last name has bugged me ever since they named his father in The Secret Crusade. In general I hated having his family history spelled out, he was much more mysterious when we knew nothing about his background. In AC2's Codex he even says he never knew his mother and father because assassins didn't really bother with family relations under Al Mualim's rule. Then suddenly they give him a whole tragic backstory where he knew his parents well into his pre-teens and was present when his father was killed. Anyway, I digress. I hate that they gave him a known father, therefore messing up his family name.

Bastiaen
03-24-2014, 08:51 PM
Bmark94 is right, it depends on the Christian denomination, since Christian beliefs vary so widely. I'm LDS, and we have a strong emphasis on the duality of body and spirit, so while we believe that Jesus Christ is the only literal child of God, we believe that all humankind are literally the spiritual offspring of God, not just figuratively like many denominations believe. Our children have a song they sing called "I am a child of God."
Perhaps the Crusaders would have argued that they were the true Children of God, (what does that even mean in that context? Is it all about being some sort of elevated, elite chosen?), what I believe, as a devoted Christian, is that we are all children of God.

Templar_Az
03-24-2014, 08:58 PM
I also got a "My Name - Son of - Fathers name" and im South Asian.

however, "Altair son of no one" just dont make sense. It would have made sense if all the Assassins in that time used Ibn Lahad because that way they are all "sons of no one" and are therefore more mysterious.

SixKeys
03-24-2014, 09:25 PM
So can M or someone else tell me what Malik's last name (Al-Sayf) means? Why would Alta´r be called "Son of (something)" if not all assassin names followed that structure?

Dome500
03-24-2014, 09:52 PM
Well for that matter us Christians don't refer to ourselves as children of god that is blasfemy the only child of god for us is Jesus. And the Jews do not believe in a "child of god". We do refer to ourselves as children of Abraham but not children of god. So for that matter it would be inaccurate for Acre too

Interesting...

You know, I haven't been in a church for a while, but I was there when I was younger, and I can say 100% that our priest, and the ones that I heard in other churches did often talk about the fact that we are all the children of god.

Just sayin.


Through faith is the key of that passage it is referring to faith in Jesus and children is more in the metaphorical sense as in pupils or god's creation. Not his literal "children". To my knowledge as a Christian Gods children is often just used as a synonym for Gods creation. There may be other denominations that interperate that differently but as far as I know the majority off Christians only view Jesus as the only literal child/son of God. No offense taken by the way it's a fair question it's not like we are bashing people's faiths just clarifying what they believe

But, isn't that EXACTLY what a child is? A creation? Your child is a creation of you and your wife/girlfriend. There is nothing metaphorical about that. It's not important HOW you are created, it's important who creates you in that case.

Anyway, I am not that into religion anymore.

As for the Ibn la Ahad, I agree with you M, I also found this odd, but I just thought Ubi wanted to underline the fact that the are his childs. I don't know, does anyone know in WHICH case a person is called Ibn la Ahad instead of Ibn [Name of the Father]? (since we know that Altair knew his father)

Calvarok
03-24-2014, 10:08 PM
Altair is called "Son of None" because his father died atoning for a mistake when he was young. It could be a name imposed on him, or a name of his own design. Given some of Altair's philosophies it might be that some of his ancestors took the same last name for themselves as a way of relaiming that phrase and making it a badge of honor: to not be defined by their father or lineage.

Assassins are basically a cult. They do things that aren't socially acceptable. deal w/ it.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
03-24-2014, 10:13 PM
Huh...I never thought of that.

I like Altair's self-given name "son of none" is just awesome... but for Ubi to just ignorantly or carelessly use it for his children as well, seems odd.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
03-24-2014, 10:16 PM
Given some of Altair's philosophies it might be that some of his ancestors took the same last name for themselves as a way of relaiming that phrase and making it a badge of honor: to not be defined by their father or lineage.

Assassins are basically a cult. They do things that aren't socially acceptable. deal w/ it.

Ah, good point... but wouldn't using the same "badge of honor" that your father used be similar to simply being defined by their father or lineage? If the point is to shun the cultural norm and to have you make a name for YOURSELF... doesn't using the same name as your father defeat that purpose?

Dome500
03-24-2014, 10:18 PM
Well maybe the children chose it as well.
Though I doubt it, regarding Darim's goodbye speech "everything that is good in me began with you father"....

But to be honest, if Ubi intended that, they should tell us in some form.

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 11:02 PM
So can M or someone else tell me what Malik's last name (Al-Sayf) means? Why would Alta´r be called "Son of (something)" if not all assassin names followed that structure?
Al-sayf can mean two things. either the sword or the summer because the letter "s" in Arabic is actually two different letters. A heavy one (pronounced as a heavy S unique to Arabic) and a light one pronounced like the normal "s". Malik means master, so i'd go with Sayf meaning sword...Master of the sword...that's Malik's full name, obviously it's like Altair's...not his actual name, but AGAIN, Ubisoft used "Al-sayf" as his family name

Same goes for Abbas Sofian. Sofian is not a family name, but they went on and made it one, calling his dad Ahmed Sofian..

frodrigues55
03-24-2014, 11:11 PM
I think it's just the case of change of plans as they went along.

Although the story is good, AC1 was very simplistic in terms of storytelling. No subtittles, no cutscenes at all. It felt like they weren't going to move foward with it, so when they did, they fixed a lot of things through AC2 and started developing Altair in ways they probably wouldn't, giving him a background and a family. It probably was too late to change his name and they thought most people wouldn't notice - until you came along :p

SixKeys
03-24-2014, 11:14 PM
Al-sayf can mean two things. either the sword or the summer because the letter "s" in Arabic is actually two different letters. A heavy one (pronounced as a heavy S unique to Arabic) and a light one pronounced like the normal "s". Malik means master, so i'd go with Sayf meaning sword...Master of the sword...that's Malik's full name, obviously it's like Altair's...not his actual name, but AGAIN, Ubisoft used "Al-sayf" as his family name

Same goes for Abbas Sofian. Sofian is not a family name, but they went on and made it one, calling his dad Ahmed Sofian..

Interesting, thanks for the info. I never knew Arabic names worked so differently.

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 11:26 PM
I think it's just the case of change of plans as they went along.

Although the story is good, AC1 was very simplistic in terms of storytelling. No subtittles, no cutscenes at all. It felt like they weren't going to move foward with it, so when they did, they fixed a lot of things through AC2 and started developing Altair in ways they probably wouldn't, giving him a background and a family. It probably was too late to change his name and they thought most people wouldn't notice - until you came along :p
That's the thing, this whole weird change came at ACR...pretty late into the series...it had grown quite a large fanbase in the Middle East by the time, they SHOULD have put more effort to make this accurate, I mean it's not like it would'v taken them THAT much time or effort...

In regards to AC I's guards and their lines, it's a game priding itself on Historical accuracy, I would expect that a good amount research went into the bases of the lines of the guards...

BATISTABUS
03-24-2014, 11:30 PM
Hmm. This is very interesting, and I'm surprised they made these mistakes. I'll be referring to Darim as "Darim Ibn Altair Ibn Umar" from now on.

Even so, they refer to Ratonhake:ton as "Connor" even though that's not his given name. "Connor" is what he calls himself and identifies as, so "Altair Ibn la-Ahad" is likely the same scenario (despite being named Altair Ibn Umar Ibn _____) . As for "Umar Ibn-La'Ahad", is he ever actually referred to as that? I know that the wiki calls him that, but in Revelations Altair just says he is the son of Umar. Database entries can be attributed to an error by the author, and books can be dismissed as third party.

Assassin_M
03-24-2014, 11:34 PM
Hmm. This is very interesting, and I'm surprised they made these mistakes. I'll be referring to Darim as "Darim Ibn Altair Ibn Umar" from now on.

Even so, they refer to Ratonhake:ton as "Connor" even though that's not his given name. "Connor" is what he calls himself and identifies as, so "Altair Ibn la-Ahad" is likely the same scenario (despite being named Altair Ibn Umar Ibn _____) . As for "Umar Ibn-La'Ahad", is he ever actually referred to as that? I know that the wiki calls him that, but in Revelations Altair just says he is the son of Umar. Database entries can be attributed to an error by the author, and books can be dismissed as third party.
It's not clear whether It was stated that Altair gave himself the name "Ibn la Ahad" or if he came to be known by it, either way, It's completely idiotic of Ubisoft to call his dad and his sons with the same name, because it's not a family name. there's no such thing as "Ibn la Ahad" family...the family of son of none wtf?? not to mention that that's not how Arabic names worked..

It's understandable with Connor. even if he calls himself Connor Kenway, because that's how British names work.

also, your signature is the best thing ever

SixKeys
03-25-2014, 12:47 AM
The "son of Umar" line in ACR was so weird, too. I always assumed Alta´r had been given the name Ibn La'Ahad by the assassins, or that he had chosen it himself. Either way it would have happened at an early age, when he was still in training. The scene in ACR when we first meet him takes place just a few years before the events of AC1. Why would he still be carrying Umar's name by then?

*sigh* Oh, ACR. Why did you have to happen?

Assassin_M
03-25-2014, 12:52 AM
*sigh* Oh, ACR. Why did you have to happen *the way you did?
:p

rprkjj
03-25-2014, 04:11 AM
This thread makes me want a remake of AC1 with Altair's original voice actor speaking in a middle-eastern accent that's more historically accurate.

ze_topazio
03-25-2014, 04:14 AM
I wont ask for a remake of AC1 but that setting is too good to not use again.

mikeyf1999
03-25-2014, 05:24 AM
Alta´r's last name has bugged me ever since they named his father in The Secret Crusade. In general I hated having his family history spelled out, he was much more mysterious when we knew nothing about his background. In AC2's Codex he even says he never knew his mother and father because assassins didn't really bother with family relations under Al Mualim's rule. Then suddenly they give him a whole tragic backstory where he knew his parents well into his pre-teens and was present when his father was killed. Anyway, I digress. I hate that they gave him a known father, therefore messing up his family name.

We'll he never knew his mother and he considered al Muslim as more of a father
Besides it's not altair with the tragic story it's Abbas that has a tragic story
And altair didn't see his fathers death Ahmad stopped him

Farlander1991
03-25-2014, 10:36 AM
As far as I understand this mistake has originated in the Secret Crusade book (and then got transferred to the AC encyclopedia), but is it actually written that way in ACR database as well? Is Umar mentioned as 'Ibn La Ahad' there?

RinoTheBouncer
03-25-2014, 11:28 AM
I totally agree with you, M. Arabic names totally don’t work like this and given names aren’t usually carried over like that. Same goes for the guards and I think a lot of the remarks that some guards make about Altair when attacking don’t make sense. They say “Ayoha al Kafir” which means “You blasphemer”. Well, why would they say that? It’s not like they know his beliefs and it’s not like anyone who fights in that time is a blasphemer. So it’s like they gathered some christian and muslim words and just randomly divided them between the guards, LOL.

Another thing about Altair’s name, why would he call himself Ibn La Ahad (son of no one) in the first place when he clearly did know his father and didn’t hate him or have anything against him? like why dismiss your father when you know who he is and nothing ever made you do that? it was never explained. At first, I thought he grew up within the brotherhood, never knew his father and never needed to because the brotherhood was his everything so no point in look for the parents..etc. but then they clearly showed that he knew and loved his father.

I also hate how the voice changed in AC:R to give Altair an accent. I mean c’mon, just because somebody is arab doesn’t mean they have to speak with an accent. I never spoke english that way and I always speak it with an American accent and I’ve never even been to the US LOL. Stereotypes + Laziness + Misinformation.

frodrigues55
03-25-2014, 12:09 PM
That's the thing, this whole weird change came at ACR...pretty late into the series...it had grown quite a large fanbase in the Middle East by the time, they SHOULD have put more effort to make this accurate, I mean it's not like it would'v taken them THAT much time or effort...

Oh, I see now, you have a point. I should stop visiting this forums, I was a much happier fan once I didn't have people pointing out those kind of things. That's probably gonna annoy me from now on, lol.

Bastiaen
03-25-2014, 03:54 PM
If I had to guess, the inconsistency didn't come about because of Ubisoft, but because of Oliver Bowden's The Secret Crusade. He rarely does any research as an author. I have to say that I have never been impressed with his writing and I wish that Ubisoft would find someone with more talent to do their novelizations. AKA... Me.

I-Like-Pie45
03-25-2014, 04:06 PM
or me

RoBg03
03-25-2014, 04:08 PM
hmm...never gave it much thought....i just figured that it was a name he took because of his fathers death/assassin culture or whatever. thought it sounded cool. i figured his son took the same name for similar reasons...and because maybe he was honoring his father by taking it. or maybe he didn't want to trade on his dads name....claiming 'son of noone' as apposed to advertising that you're the son of a legendary assassin...make a name for himself as it were. i'm not too knowledgeable about muslim names, but i always thought of him more as an assassin than muslim. i figured that the brotherhood was pretty much a religion in itself. also, once you know about the first civ and all that, you probably aren't buying into any religions anymore.

Assassin_M
03-25-2014, 07:00 PM
hmm...never gave it much thought....i just figured that it was a name he took because of his fathers death/assassin culture or whatever. thought it sounded cool. i figured his son took the same name for similar reasons...and because maybe he was honoring his father by taking it. or maybe he didn't want to trade on his dads name....claiming 'son of noone' as apposed to advertising that you're the son of a legendary assassin...make a name for himself as it were. i'm not too knowledgeable about muslim names, but i always thought of him more as an assassin than muslim. i figured that the brotherhood was pretty much a religion in itself. also, once you know about the first civ and all that, you probably aren't buying into any religions anymore.
It wasn't a Muslim thing, it's an Arab thing. Ubisoft did this assuming that Arabic names worked like western names. {first name} {Last name}

Also, the Creed is not a replacement for Religion. Altair's father was Muslim. like Mary Reed said, it's not a religion nor a replacement for it..

RoBg03
03-25-2014, 07:05 PM
It wasn't a Muslim thing, it's an Arab thing. Ubisoft did this assuming that Arabic names worked like western names. {first name} {Last name}

Also, the Creed is not a replacement for Religion. Altair's father was Muslim. like Mary Reed said, it's not a religion nor a replacement for it..

yeah, i meant the creed was religion like...but did altairs father know anything about the first civ? i thought it was altair that first made the link....been a while since i played ac1