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View Full Version : Future requests: Stamina and head moving



Dmitri9mm
04-02-2004, 11:50 AM
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but here goes:

For future flight sims (perhaps BoB? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif) It would be nice to see more of those dramatic effects on the pilot, that performing aerobatics causes.
Pulling high Gs allready affects in the way of blackout and redout - that is fine, but I would like to experience the pilot being pressed hard down in the seat or against the walls. Head movement should be much greater than it is now. And of course this would also affect the aiming. It would be really cool if it took just a second to focus in on the sights after a violent head moving, this would also make it harder to shoot in a turn n' burn fight, to put more favor to the energy fight, which doesn't put a hard pressure on the pilots body.

Another thing that would be really cool, would be to add a stamina system, not very unlike those that most 1st person shooters have today, I believe this would be quite simple to add. It should work something like this:
Every pilot starts with a stamina level of 100%. Now every time the pilot is exposed to G-forces, or has to use a lot of force to control the plane (at high speed or during wild maneuvering) he looses stamina at a certain rate, when he gets low on stamina, he can't put so much force into controlling the plane (like when you're wounded in FB) his vision might become blurry, or he might need a longer time to focus (see above). When a pilot becomes low on stamina, he will have to take it easy for a while until his stamina builds up again, which would happen at a certain rate of let's say: 3% per second.
Being wounded or pulling high negative Gs (which gives you a slight brain damage) will of course permanently lower your maximum stamina level to ex. 75% for the duration of the mission. Also the maximum stamina could get a slight cut over long periods of time to reflect the pilot getting exhausted from sitting a long time in a vibrating cockpit.
Further adjustments could come from being at a high altitude, cold/warm temperatures etc. etc. limitless potential!

Like the head movement/focus feature, this would make it harder to manage the intense turn n' burn that we often see online (and which seldom happened in real life) and put more favor to the energy fight, which I think would be a progressive development.

Does this sound like an idea?
Sorry if it has allready been brought up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
>"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!<

Dmitri9mm
04-02-2004, 11:50 AM
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but here goes:

For future flight sims (perhaps BoB? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif) It would be nice to see more of those dramatic effects on the pilot, that performing aerobatics causes.
Pulling high Gs allready affects in the way of blackout and redout - that is fine, but I would like to experience the pilot being pressed hard down in the seat or against the walls. Head movement should be much greater than it is now. And of course this would also affect the aiming. It would be really cool if it took just a second to focus in on the sights after a violent head moving, this would also make it harder to shoot in a turn n' burn fight, to put more favor to the energy fight, which doesn't put a hard pressure on the pilots body.

Another thing that would be really cool, would be to add a stamina system, not very unlike those that most 1st person shooters have today, I believe this would be quite simple to add. It should work something like this:
Every pilot starts with a stamina level of 100%. Now every time the pilot is exposed to G-forces, or has to use a lot of force to control the plane (at high speed or during wild maneuvering) he looses stamina at a certain rate, when he gets low on stamina, he can't put so much force into controlling the plane (like when you're wounded in FB) his vision might become blurry, or he might need a longer time to focus (see above). When a pilot becomes low on stamina, he will have to take it easy for a while until his stamina builds up again, which would happen at a certain rate of let's say: 3% per second.
Being wounded or pulling high negative Gs (which gives you a slight brain damage) will of course permanently lower your maximum stamina level to ex. 75% for the duration of the mission. Also the maximum stamina could get a slight cut over long periods of time to reflect the pilot getting exhausted from sitting a long time in a vibrating cockpit.
Further adjustments could come from being at a high altitude, cold/warm temperatures etc. etc. limitless potential!

Like the head movement/focus feature, this would make it harder to manage the intense turn n' burn that we often see online (and which seldom happened in real life) and put more favor to the energy fight, which I think would be a progressive development.

Does this sound like an idea?
Sorry if it has allready been brought up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

CaptainGelo
04-03-2004, 03:02 PM
BUMP

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif

CaptainGelo
04-03-2004, 03:03 PM
I think its a great Idea!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif

Flamin_Squirrel
04-03-2004, 03:41 PM
I belive BoB will have head movement implimented. Not sure about details, but something to look forward to. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Dmitri9mm
04-13-2004, 10:43 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

I know it's bad form to bump your own topic, but I would really like to have some feed back on this one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

HayateKid
04-13-2004, 12:17 PM
While we're at it, why not add Health boxes floating in the air as well. If you fly through the health box, you boost your stamina to 100% again. Also might as well have floating boxes for Ammo and Repair. As the name implies, Ammo would replenish your ammunition and Repair would restore the perfect mechanical condition of your plane. How about Invulnerability boxes too? You fly through an Invulnerability box and you are immune from shots for a short time. Other ideas to throw in:

- Teleport: you fly through a teleport box and you get transported to another random or non-random location.
- Invisibility: you become invisible for a short time after you fly through this box.
- Bonus: you get extra points automatically
- PlaneChooser: when you fly through this, you cycle to your next plane in your pre-set choices. Would be funny to fly a Spitfire and change to a Bf109Z in mid-air.

Of course, these would only be options that can be turned on or off on the server side.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

LEXX_Luthor
04-13-2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>this would also make it harder to shoot in a turn n' burn fight, to put more favor to the energy fight, which doesn't put a hard pressure on the pilots body.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What the BnZ computer dogfighters DON'T want moddeled is high speed flight is more physically rough on pilots then low speed flight.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

clint-ruin
04-13-2004, 01:17 PM
To simulate the pilots head being pressed down or pushed up [or for more head movement in general], download and set up NewView.

Typically NewView will move your view to look in the direction your stick is pointing - you look up when you pull the stick back, etc. But you can also set negative values to simulate high G moves pushing your head down into your lap.

http://www.sh.zp.ua/il2/il2_newview.zip
^ NewView build 30

http://www.sh.zp.ua/il2/nv_english.zip
^ NewView setup guide by Jeff Simpson/Jetstream100 [refers to older version but still largely appropriate].

You want to follow Jetstreams setup instructions, then go to "Additional Settings &gt; Speed Parameters", and set a small negative value in the "Joystick Movement (View Binding) Y" field. A value of -0.05 or -0.10 should work. Your head should now appear to be pulled up when you push the stick forward, and pushed into your lap when you pull the stick back.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

clint-ruin
04-13-2004, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
While we're at it, why not add Health boxes floating in the air as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You be careful how you toy with some peoples angina here young feller-me-lad.

:&gt;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Dmitri9mm
04-13-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
While we're at it, why not add Health boxes floating in the air as well. If you fly through the health box, you boost your stamina to 100% again. Also might as well have floating boxes for Ammo and Repair. As the name implies, Ammo would replenish your ammunition and Repair would restore the perfect mechanical condition of your plane. How about Invulnerability boxes too? You fly through an Invulnerability box and you are immune from shots for a short time. Other ideas to throw in:

- Teleport: you fly through a teleport box and you get transported to another random or non-random location.
- Invisibility: you become invisible for a short time after you fly through this box.
- Bonus: you get extra points automatically
- PlaneChooser: when you fly through this, you cycle to your next plane in your pre-set choices. Would be funny to fly a Spitfire and change to a Bf109Z in mid-air.

Of course, these would only be options that can be turned on or off on the server side.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're being childish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif
I am not talking about a "stamina-bar" sitting at the corner of the screen, the stamina level should only be noticeable when you want to pull hard on the controls and just can't. Just like we don't have a HUD ammo counter, but still we can run out of ammo.
This would be quite realistic, unlike the other things you "suggested".

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

Dmitri9mm
04-13-2004, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
What the BnZ computer dogfighters DON'T want moddeled is high speed flight is more physically rough on pilots then low speed flight.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I know, the whole idea about BnZ fighting is that you don't pull your plane into hard maneuvering. Simply flying fast is NOT physically rough due to Newtons law of accelleration. In a jet-powered airliner you move at speeds exeeding 900 km/h with no physical strain on the body.
The hard pressure on the pilots body derives almost exclusively from accellertion in one direction or another (pulling Gs is accelleration as well) allthough low air presure at higher altitudes can be a factor too.

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

VMF513_Sandman
04-13-2004, 02:00 PM
now this looks to be 1 of the best ideas yet. u would have to admit that this is exactly what pilots faced in the war, especially long missions over water....pacific theater (hint hint).
with as much high g loops as i see about 95% of pilots do, give them a real plane, and their arms and legs would soon get exhausted from having to pull so hard on the stick at the speeds their always at...maybe, that would force them to pull the manuver off at a slower speed.
maybe, if shells hit the glass, the pilot ducks. if he was already lined up for a shot, this would totally blow the shot. how bout....if pulling really hard g's; like tryin to get a p-38 that's close to compressibility, the pilot actually groans straining to pull that b.u.f.f out of the dive in time; and if he cant, mebby he can say.....ohhhhhhh sh**t.
what reallllllllly needs to be fixed is the fact that, if ur in f6 padlock, there's no black/redouts. how about, instead of jamming the flaps if dropped at too high of speed, the flaps part company of the bird in question..even tho the airleons would more than likely follow suit and join the flaps in 'outer space'.

engines should require at least a 20 second warm-up before take-off....failure to do this will run the risk of blowing an engine. u cant tell me that u wouldnt let a prop bird idle for a minute or 2 before even taxing out to the runway.

VMF513_Whitey1
04-13-2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Simply flying fast is NOT physically rough due to Newtons law of accelleration. In a jet-powered airliner you move at speeds exeeding 900 km/h with no physical strain on the body <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You forget that most planes are "fly by wire". WW2 planes werent, and controls can get very heavy at high speeds. I personally would rather to be able to sorta lean a bit out the window to see around the nose or something on take off, but i dont mind how it is now. Granted, i think head shake should be a bit more if say you go into a snap roll or other quick movements. But to me, what you proposed in the first post seems kinda over kill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Whitey

&lt;img src="http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/VMF513_Whitey1/DFA.jpg"&gt;
"Never miss a good chance to shutup!"
"We roll tonite, to the guitar bite."

HayateKid
04-13-2004, 02:25 PM
sorry for the sarcastic post.
i meant to say, i think this is a bad idea (to put it mildly). FB is a plane simulation, not a human body simulation. i'm surprised so many people actually think it's good. blackout/redout should be as far as you go simulating the flying experience. trying to simulate stamina, fatigue, endurance in pilots would just make FB Quake-like. And just imagine the whines you'd get about correct/incorrect Stamina Modelling for such and such pilot. Too many unknowns about fitness levels. In any case, stamina is already part of the game. Have you ever tried playing for more than 2 hours?

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

carguy_
04-13-2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
While we're at it, why not add Health boxes floating in the air as well. If you fly through the health box, you boost your stamina to 100% again. Also might as well have floating boxes for Ammo and Repair. As the name implies, Ammo would replenish your ammunition and Repair would restore the perfect mechanical condition of your plane. How about Invulnerability boxes too? You fly through an Invulnerability box and you are immune from shots for a short time. Other ideas to throw in:

- Teleport: you fly through a teleport box and you get transported to another random or non-random location.
- Invisibility: you become invisible for a short time after you fly through this box.
- Bonus: you get extra points automatically
- PlaneChooser: when you fly through this, you cycle to your next plane in your pre-set choices. Would be funny to fly a Spitfire and change to a Bf109Z in mid-air.

Of course, these would only be options that can be turned on or off on the server side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly.I think options in the idea don`t effect everyone individually.Remember there are better-natural pilots with better Gforce resistance etc.As far as a really complicated system isn`t built we should stick to options currently available.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Chuck_Older
04-13-2004, 03:29 PM
CFS3 has a system that does that...and I think it stinks.

And as far as blurry vision goes, this was brought up in the PF forum...not many liked the idea.

Again I will point out that some sim players have bad eyesight to begin with. I don't want the effects of malnutrition, mental state, diesease, airsickness, fear, or anything else of that nature to effect the pilot's performance.

Many players want a more "in depth" sim, and that is fine, but the choices seem to revolve around RPG type random chance occurances, or skills...how about a 5% chance that during a randomly determined flight, you develop hypoxia, and die? No thanks. I don't want to spend experience points on G tolerance. I don't want blurry vision or spots before my eyes or hallucinations. Let's get a good flight sim first.

*****************************
Get your car outta that gear ~ Clash

Dmitri9mm
04-13-2004, 03:37 PM
I understand your arguments against the idea, but I disagree: In FB are allready incoorporated several features which are connected to physical reactions of a human being, and I don't think it is "done by that".
The dogfights that take place online currently are indeed a lot of fun, but also totally unrealistic, no person could endure the intensity of the aerobatics that we see there.
This sim has a goal of finding the golden compromise between realism and playability. My idea, as I see it, will add a new level to the gaming without making it impossible to play, and if it makes the fights a bit more realistic then why not?

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

Jetbuff
04-13-2004, 06:34 PM
I think that incorporating a more elaborate(*cough* proper *cough*) E-bleed system would alleviate a lot of what you see in terms of the ridiculous endless, mindless looping... but that's just me.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

Captain_Avatar
04-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Hey, why aren't the "Full Real" crowd all over this? Keeping your situational awareness through the confines of a cockpit is challenging, imagine how tough it would be if it modelled how physically demanding a dogfight can be.

LEXX_Luthor
04-13-2004, 09:35 PM
Its a way for BnZ dogfighters to slow down and turn with Gladiator after a few passes.

They don't want to talk about airplanes must fly through bumpy air and the faster you do the more banged up the pilot gets. If Oleg modded this, the BnZ dogfighters would leave the sim. Real pilots could not just "leave." Slow speed aerobatic pilots can Do It for a long time, but they are highly skilled, and the male computer dogfighter infatuation with pilot stamina ignores pilot skill...

...that, and the male dogfighters can't last long before rolling over blacked out and inverted and so they want their internet opponents to be as Impotent as they are). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-13-2004, 09:41 PM
Now, what I would ~love~ to see modded is "dizziness" when you turn pilot head rapidly during a high Gee turn. This could be of some interest. Indeed, eventually this could become a Flight Medicine sim if done properly, and its one of the most fascinating fields of study in aviation.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fehler
04-14-2004, 02:13 AM
Well, this discussion is obviously between the people that understand the effects of pulling high G maneuvers, and the ones that dont.

The truth of the matter is, most airplanes could pull the continuous high G turns you see now, but the pilots could not. They could not because of exhaustion. Try holding a fifty pound weight for a few minutes. It will feel heavier with time. now, add in the fact that your body has 3-5 the gravitational force applied to it, and you wont be holding that weight for more than a few seconds. (Hint hint, that's why planes like the F16 ARE fly by wire)

Pilots like Greg Boyington are quoted as saying that they could turn their P-40 inside the turning circle of a Zero by constricting the leg muscles and tightening the neck muscles. (Keeping blood out of the extremities and in the center of the body and brain) Boyington was a very stocky man, and could use his body to offset the limitations of most pilots. (Accounts like this are also where you get the disparity between the average P38 flyer and some of the accounts of the great pilots on turning ability)

In real life, stamina would be based on lots of issues. Physical strength of the pilot. Stature, diet, cardiovascular efficiency. Of course, that would could not be modeled in a game. But a simplified system could be. We already have a similar system in place. How does Oleg know if "I" cant pull back on a stick if I am injured? Well, he decided how much I can when wounded in IL2 right now... A similar system could be implimented in regards to stamina.

The simple fact is, pulling high speed G maneuvers has adverse and immediate effects on the body. Everyone here screams about realism and x plane is 5 KPH slower than this report. But they dont even consider that the maneuvers they are making in this game cant be repeated indefinately in real life; but they can do it in the game!

The pilot is and has always been one of the most limiting factors of flight.

Lexx is incorrect about speed and bodily effects. Drive your car 50 KPH, then drive it 100 KPH. You dont get an increase of G because your body travels the same speed as the car. Throw your car into a mad turn at a higher speed, and you begin to exert G on your body because of different forces acting on your body, not just the linear force you experienced while driving straight.

Stamina should be a part of a great flight sim. It was a major factor in dogfighting, but is non-existant here. Even a very simplified stamina loss system would be head and shoulders above a system that doesnt include it. I have made probably 20 posts on this subject in the past, and received the same types of answers. They are always from people who dont really understand the forces on the body that high speed maneuvering can bring.

It could be an option, like headshake and gyro effects are now. An option arcade flyers could turn off so they could go round and round all day if they wanted. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oleg would be a great person to model this. I understand that he has military pilot experience, and therfore he must understand the limitations of the body and how that would relate to stick pressures of various planes.

Incidently, stick pressure is modeled for most planes in IL2. Given some of the arguments against stamina loss, I ask you this.. How does Oleg know I cant pull more than 60 pounds of pressure in a dive? I assure you I can dead lift well over 450 pounds. But I cant pull 60 on a stick? Answer, Oleg modeled stick pressure from pilot accounts and documented data. This is a simulation, not a real-u-lation. Oleg is simulating what he has read, combined with his real life training and experiences.

He would do an excellent job with stamina, I am sure of it!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Dmitri9mm
04-14-2004, 02:58 AM
Well it's nice to see that somebody supports my suggestion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
And to remedy what has been brought up previously:
No I do not want a system where you spend "XP" to enhance your physical characteristics. What we need is a simple system where all players have the same amount of stamina and strenght, no that is not quite what it's like in the real world, but still it's better than what we have now. Also it would be nice to have an even simpler system to affect the AI too.

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
04-14-2004, 03:24 AM
Big Bump here !

It's a shame. Most ppl discuss small discrepancies in the physical modelling of the planes but forget the weakest part, the pilot.

I think the Avg.-Pilot Stamina-level-box would be cool. Maybe it looks arcadish, granted but it would be a step ahead.

When I see planes doing high-g turns for more then 4 circles while being chased by 3 opponents things are getting ridiculous.

Same goes for the "ever-looping" fraction.
I don't mind if this affects BnZ players also. Physics work for all and everything that gives a better insight into what Pilots felt in that time is Plus and simply put a "MUST HAVE".

S!

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

WWMaxGunz
04-14-2004, 03:26 AM
Yes Dimitri these were suggested at different times in the past couple years. Hopefully they were noted.

Stamina would need a visible or audible indicator of some kind, it should only take some thought to see why and reason #2 would be that without it there would be so much whining about what "the plane can't do and it should" it wouldn't be funny.

I don't know where the "powerboxes" rebuttal came from but that individual needs to get his head out into the light once in a while and bother to read whole posts. There was nothing arcade about the original message.


Neal

Fehler
04-14-2004, 04:09 AM
I will say it again, I really think Oleg could do a fine job at this. I wont pretend to know how many G's a person could take before he became "Weakened," but someone like Oleg could make a good estimate. If these attributes were the same for everyone, how could anyone cry foul?

And like so many options in IL2 now, it could simply be turned off for people that dont want to use it on their server. There is nothing wrong with that.

That "Optional" idea would be perfect for those that wish to test turn rates of planes as Neal suggests. Kind of like the arcade setting where you can watch arrows and secondary explosions, or turning off overheating to see just how fast you can actually push a certain airplane.

I really think stamina is a must. It was and still is a very important consideration in dogfighting. (Ever notice you never see a fat fighter jock?)

Additionally, people are always quick to complain about flight models, or planes not conforming to their idea of flight physics. I surmise that a lot of what they base their complaints on is taken from reading pilot accounts and matching it with technical data at their disposal. Then they match this to what they see in the game and they think "What rubbish!" In actuality, what they are seeing in game, or NOT seeing (More correctly) is modeling of what a human could actually do in these planes in the first place.

*Looks to the sky* Oleg, if you ever read this, please consider it. If you think we are totally off base with this request, tell us we are ******s and we will go about our business. LOL

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

LEXX_Luthor
04-14-2004, 04:44 AM
Fehler, you miss the point that high speed gives a more bumpy ride in bumpy air in general, this wears pilots out even before they enter combat, and is as exhausting as Aerobatic looping at *slow* speeds (trading speed for tight turning). Oleg must modd this before you wish to slow down in your BnZ Fb-109Z to turn with exausted Gladiator (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif). Also needing modding is exhaustion simply from flying for one or two hours, or 8 hours for P~51 pilots. If we want Realism, the 25% fuel selected by internet P~51 dogfighters must be matched by 75% reduction in "stamina" because P~51s realistically took off with much greater fuel. Discussion? I didn't think so. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lexx is incorrect about speed and bodily effects. Drive your car 50 KPH, then drive it 100 KPH. You dont get an increase of G because your body travels the same speed as the car. Throw your car into a mad turn at a higher speed, and you begin to exert G on your body because of different forces acting on your body, not just the linear force you experienced while driving straight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now drive our small featherweight aluminum fighter at 600KPH in bumpy air. I think this is what is confusing us.

More important, this "stamina" thing depends more on pilot skill, something no computer dogfighter here wants to make posts about. Now which skill level are we going to sim *every* time we fly? Of course we already sim only the Aces, and wear their skins as our own.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fehler
04-14-2004, 06:11 AM
OK Lexx, I really think you are comparing apples and oranges.

We are talking about stamina loss for pulling high G maneuvers over and over and over again. We are not talking about flying in bumpy air or modding in flight to target times, or even the strain of 109 piloting (Well written about) because of yaw effects due a lack of trim-able rudders. Incidently, Oleg has stated that the BoB engine will include things like flying in others prop wash, etc. (Very cool idea!)

We are talking about going round and round like a merri-go-round at high speed pulling 3-5 G's forever and ever and not having any adverse affects because of it.

Incidently, pulling a steep zoom after a fast dive would and should have adverse effects on a pilot's stamina as well, but short high G maneuvers would not be as detrimental as long high G maneuvers ie. turning on the edge of blackout for 15-20 seconds at a time - a situation that is recreated all too frequently in most dogfight servers. I've done it myself, and laughed the whole time, recalling my ride-along flight in an F-15 hearing the pilot grunt as hard as he could while making me toss my cookies. (And that was a tight, medium G turn that lasted less than 2 seconds!)

Again, all of this would add realism to the game. Your 109Z vs J8A is a bit overdramatic, and not very realistic. But lets look at it anyway. Pulling tight slow (Low G) turns in a J8A certainly would not reduce your stamina compared to pulling tight high G (Fast) turns in a 109Z. (I dont even know how the thing flys since I only shot at a couple of bombers in QMB with it just to marvel at the firepower, and havent flown it since) But if you have ever read any books on WWI - since you bring up bi-planes - one of the common statements I have read was that dogfighting and piloting in the early years of aviation in these light-weight aircraft were extremely taxing, both mentally and physically. And turning aerobatic maneuvers in your bumpy air, as you put it, in a light fabric covered aircraft is certainly more bumpy than pulling them in a heavier plane. But we arent talking about bumps, we are talking about G forces - two different things.

What I, and apparently others, are saying is that pilot limitations (With respect to G forces) are not adequately taken into consideration in this flight sim. IL2 has the "Start(s)" of these kinda of things with pilot strength reduction when wounded, black/red outs, and headshake, but it could go a great deal further. Perhaps it is time to take a look at those issues as the BoB game engine is being made.

Dont worry Lexx, I still like you. (Although your tela-tubby is a little disturbing LOL) I still remember each one of your quotes in your sig and the threads when I read them. I find most of your posts entertaining and/or informative. But I just think you are wrong in this case. It's OK, I was wrong once too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

MatuDa
04-14-2004, 07:09 AM
I'm all for having some kind of stamina for the pilot (and gunners..). IMHO it would dequakefyim somewhat since performance would vary and the dude in la7 for example could have trouble turnfighting after a few kills..

Hartmann learned the bnz tactics because his wingleader was not as strong as some of his mates and couldn't burn with the russians.. so he used the pendulum which worked well and suited dhis low stamina/strenght. On the other hand Hartmann describes strong 109 pilots tiring the russian counterparts with tight high G maneuvers before making the kill..

Stamina would of course not simulate all of the variables in human physics but it would still make a big step towards flight SIMULATION.

Falcon3 some 10 years ago had stamina modelled and there was not any "counter" to tell you how much of it there is left etc.. You would notice the pilot tiring when blackouts started earlier and earlier on the g-scale. I think it would be really simple to implement on this sim... And the amount of stamina wouldn't have to be a set amount, a random figure varying 10% would be fine. And even in falcon you quickly became aware of your pilots tidredness or the lack of it and could plan the fight accordingly.

Thumbs up for dimitris great suggestion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-14-2004, 12:24 PM
Okay Fehler, but we can't sim only one cause of Exhaustion we must sim them all, or we give historically false advantage where there was none, but that may be the intention in the DF servers. As for Looping Exhaustion, high skilled Aerobatic pilots show we computer flight simmers may not know what we are talking about.

We also require pilot exhaustion to set in over long periods of time, and for Realism the more fuel burned the longer the time in cockpit and the more Exhausted our pilots get. So when we select 25% fuel for dogfight servers, we must have 75% staminal reduction automatically--percentage loss modified for aircraft range as P~51 could go 6+ hours and Fb109 one hour. I didn't think any of our dogfighters wanted to talk about this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We ask again:: Which pilot skill will we select for our Stamina? Of course we only sim the Aces, and wear their skins as our own.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-14-2004, 12:47 PM
mmmm....okay now *this* sounds interesting...

MatuDa:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On the other hand Hartmann describes strong 109 pilots tiring the russian counterparts with tight high G maneuvers before making the kill..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Also they were much less skilled pilots than Hartmann. Fascinating this did not enter into MatuDa's post. Still, this is alot like wrastling maybe. A real physical fight. There could be room for agreement here, but Male computer dogfighters may be the WRONG amatuers to discuss real life flight medicine. This is the real problem we are having here. Of course, only the pop-culture dogfight "tnb" or low speed Looping Stamina is discussed. It is only one of many causes of pilot exhaustion.

We ask again and again:: Which pilot skill will we select for our Stamina? Of course we sim only the Great Aces, and wear Their skins as our own.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-14-2004, 01:22 PM
Saburo Sakai. With one eye, Saburo joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

Male Stamina was not a factor.... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But lexx you Noob, Saburo was a Great Ace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Excellent, now we are getting somewhere. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Sorry about my earlier grumpiness. This can be a fun talk.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

AcesHigh_AVG
04-14-2004, 02:22 PM
I really like the idea. I think it would make online dogfighting even closer to reality. Currently 190 pilots will flip flop all over the sky to keep you from shooting them. In real life no pilot would be able to keep this up and not get so beat up from his head hitting either side of the cockpit. I say implement it. Forget the nay-sayers.

LEXX_Luthor
04-14-2004, 02:58 PM
AcesHigh_AVG:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Currently 190 pilots will flip flop all over the sky to keep you from shooting them. In real life no pilot would be able to keep this up and not get so beat up from his head hitting either side of the cockpit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sounds like historical defensive tactic. "Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills. Most likely the "ally" pilots lost BnZ Stamina faster then experienced Japanese aerobatic pilot lost TnB Stamina. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

3.JG51_Stecher
04-14-2004, 04:17 PM
This is certainly an interesting topic and discussion. The proponents of the stamina system seem to be missing a huge factor in determining what a pilot was physically capable of. Adrenaline. It would be foolish to try to model some type of pilot fatigue, even a generic one, without equally taking into account the adrenaline rush he is also influenced by during a fight. Remember these guys were literally fighting for their very lives. Implementing pilot stamina with only half of the equation will be far worse than not having one at all. When your life is threatened, you posses accentuated physical attributes. Run in a race with another guy, then run with a lion behind you. Trust me you'll run faster. Lift weights at the gym, then lift a steel girder off your best buddy that's being crushed. You'll find yourself to be considerably stronger. It will already be very complicated just modeling fatigue. How fast does it decrease strength, per G, per second? Does the rate of decrease change or stay constant? How fast does it replenish in level flight? What about its rate? Is there a grace period before it starts to take effect? How much of a counter balance does adrenaline provide? What rate does it have? When does it begin to take effect? How long does it last? Will you ever get back to 100% stamina? All this will have to be worked out even for just a basic, "one size fits all" generic system. As a "full switch" pilot I welcome anything that can increase realism and immersion, but I just don't think that it's possible to do a quality job on this yet. Dozens and dozens of interdependent variables will have to be worked out, and we already have problems perfecting the simple ones. I'm just afraid to see an attempt at this and have it turn out ugly. Something this complicated should be done correctly and at the proper time, which in my opinion is not now, and unfortunately may never be.

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

VMF513_Sandman
04-14-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stecher_3.-JG51:
This is certainly an interesting topic and discussion. The proponents of the stamina system seem to be missing a huge factor in determining what a pilot was physically capable of. Adrenaline. It would be foolish to try to model some type of pilot fatigue, even a generic one, without equally taking into account the adrenaline rush he is also influenced by during a fight. Remember these guys were literally fighting for their very lives. Implementing pilot stamina with only half of the equation will be far worse than not having one at all. When your life is threatened, you posses accentuated physical attributes. Run in a race with another guy, then run with a lion behind you. Trust me you'll run faster. Lift weights at the gym, then lift a steel girder off your best buddy that's being crushed. You'll find yourself to be considerably stronger. It will already be very complicated just modeling fatigue. How fast does it decrease strength, per G, per second? Does the rate of decrease change or stay constant? How fast does it replenish in level flight? What about its rate? Is there a grace period before it starts to take effect? How much of a counter balance does adrenaline provide? What rate does it have? When does it begin to take effect? How long does it last? Will you ever get back to 100% stamina? All this will have to be worked out even for just a basic, "one size fits all" generic system. As a "full switch" pilot I welcome anything that can increase realism and immersion, but I just don't think that it's possible to do a quality job on this yet. Dozens and dozens of interdependent variables will have to be worked out, and we already have problems perfecting the simple ones. I'm just afraid to see an attempt at this and have it turn out ugly. Something this complicated should be done correctly and at the proper time, which in my opinion is not now, and unfortunately may never be.

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
http://www.jg51.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

he brings up alot of good points here. if u saw ur best bud with something on him, u would bust balls tryin to get it off him

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
04-15-2004, 12:30 AM
Actually this adrenaline thing doesn't bring anything new into the problem of modelling stamina. We can consider all pilots equally under an adrenaline rush and fighting for their lives. So it's basically a factor we can neglect(or let's say incorporate), since it affects all. simply model some KIND of stamina equal for all and it's ok. Since I think Oleg has some military background he certainly know about things like that.
There also should be only the avg. Pilot modelled. Of course there were brain- and muscle- fighters which possesed some advantage but for simulating the avg. Johny-Pilot it's unecessary.

S!

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

MatuDa
04-15-2004, 01:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
mmmm....okay now *this* sounds interesting...

MatuDa:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On the other hand Hartmann describes strong 109 pilots tiring the russian counterparts with tight high G maneuvers before making the kill..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Also they were much less skilled pilots than Hartmann. Fascinating this did not enter into MatuDa's post. Still, this is alot like wrastling maybe. A real physical fight. There could be room for agreement here, but Male computer dogfighters may be the WRONG amatuers to discuss real life flight medicine. This is the real problem we are having here. Of course, only the pop-culture dogfight "tnb" or low speed Looping Stamina is discussed. It is only one of many causes of pilot exhaustion.

We ask again _and again_:: Which pilot skill will we select for our Stamina? Of course we sim only the Great Aces, and wear Their skins as our own.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luthor, I didn't say Hartmann tired his opponents and I don't especially care for your attitude after misunderstanding my post. He noted in his biography that many strong 109 pilots did tnb and won because after several hard turns the weaker pilot would not have the stamina left to pull hard enough turns and then got waxed. So stamina does affect dogfights IRL. I'd be perfectly happy with everyone starting with equal stamina and only the way you spend it determines who tires first.. so in my opinion there's no relevance to question which skill level we should simulate as long as everyone would stand approx. equal in begining.

Then you say Male computer dogfighters may be the WRONG amatuers to discuss real life flight medicine

..so lets just read what the real pilots had to say eh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

3.JG51_Stecher
04-15-2004, 01:37 AM
-------------------------------------
Originally posted by JaBo_HH--Gotcha:
.....We can consider all pilots equally under an adrenaline rush and fighting for their lives. So it's basically a factor we can neglect.....
-------------------------------------

Absolutely not. Adrenaline rushes are by no means constant or uniform. The whole point of modeling pilot stamina is to influence his strength directly as a result of a maneuver. Fatigue is not constant or uniform from takeoff until landing, and neither should adrenaline be. Each is caused by specific actions and situations. When you're taxiing to the runway, do you think your adrenaline is at the same level as when you just saw your wing shredded by enemy fire? It's not even close. Nor would the adrenaline level be the same for any two pilots during the same fight. If pilot A is latched onto pilot B's six at 300m and peppering him with fire, both will have elevated adrenaline levels, but pilot B's will be through the roof, knowing that he may actually die any second.

This is why it's going to be so complicated and nearly impossible to get right. Consider that there are three elements acting upon a pilot's strength.

1. Rest
2. Fatigue
3. Adrenaline

For each, we must determine:

A. What initiates their influence
B. What terminates their influece
C. At what rate do they influence
D. What type of rate do they influence

Once we have definitive answers for every one of these, then we must figure out how they will all work with and against each other at the same time, while all constantly changing, to produce an end result of pilot strength that is constantly changing.

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

MatuDa
04-15-2004, 01:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stecher_3.-JG51:

Absolutely not. Adrenaline rushes are by no means constant or uniform. The whole point of modeling pilot stamina is to influence his strength directly as a result of a maneuver. Fatigue is not constant or uniform from takeoff until landing, and neither should adrenaline be. Each is caused by specific actions and situations. When you're taxiing to the runway, do you think your adrenaline is at the same level as when you just saw your wing shredded by enemy fire? It's not even close. Nor would the adrenaline level be the same for any two pilots during the same fight. If pilot A is latched onto pilot B's six at 300m and peppering him with fire, both will have elevated adrenaline levels, but pilot A's will be through the roof, knowing that he may actually die any second.

This is why it's going to be so complicated and nearly impossible to get right. Consider that there are three elements acting upon a pilot's strength.

1. Rest
2. Fatigue
3. Adrenaline

For each, we must determine:

A. What initiates their influence
B. What terminates their influece
C. At what rate do they influence
D. What type of rate do they influence

Once we have definitive answers for every one of these, then we must figure out how they will all work with and against each other at the same time, while all constantly changing, to produce an end result of pilot strength that is constantly changing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All due respect but I think that would make it too complicated: Just for example currently we have REALISTIC GUNNERY in FB and not many whines in general and it is implemented even though it doesn't take into account

1 wind
2 altitude (air density-drag)
3 gun jams
4 cartridges with too much or too little gunpowder
5 turbulence in flightpath
6 material faults in shell
7 barrels bending due to overheat
8 etc etc

There's lots of stuff that dont get taken into account on all aspects of this sim but some common sense and a good try often work well enough. Your post sounds like unless everything is exactly perfect it shouldn't be implemented at all.. that way we wouldn't have anything to play m8. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

3.JG51_Stecher
04-15-2004, 03:07 AM
----------------------------
Originally posted by MatuDa:
All due respect but I think that would make it too complicated: Just for example currently we have REALISTIC GUNNERY in FB and not many whines in general and it is implemented even though it doesn't take into account

1 wind
2 altitude (air density-drag)
3 gun jams
4 cartridges with too much or too little gunpowder
5 turbulence in flightpath
6 material faults in shell
7 barrels bending due to overheat
8 etc etc

There's lots of stuff that dont get taken into account on all aspects of this sim but some common sense and a good try often work well enough. Your post sounds like unless everything is exactly perfect it shouldn't be implemented at all.. that way we wouldn't have anything to play m8. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
----------------------------

I wish it were true, but I'm afraid not. What I'm describing is what it would take for a basic and generic stamina system that is realistic enough for this sim. Just as we have in gunnery now, it is neither arcadish nor ridiculously detailed. We have different ammunition, each having its own caliber, weight and round type in the belt. Each weapon has a different rate of fire, muzzle velocity, and recoil. What we have now in gunnery is on about the same level as what I'm suggesting for a stamina system.
The obviously over-detailed gunnery system that you have noted would be on par with a stamina system that goes into much greater detail than I have. Such as the inclusion of each individual pilot's heart rate, blood pressure, sweat rate, metabolism, what he had for dinner last night, and breakfast this morning. Certainly I'm not going this far, nor should we of course.
The way I see it, implementing a stamina system less detailed than the one I propose would be like having gunnery without varying muzzle velocities and bullet drop. It would be missing a vital part of the equation that keeps it realistic, which is the whole point in the first place.
Perhaps I am missing something. If you can explain a stamina system which is less complicated than the one I've pointed out, yet still maintains a realism level appropriate for the next generation of 1C sims, I would love to hear it.

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

[This message was edited by Stecher_3.-JG51 on Thu April 15 2004 at 03:21 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
04-15-2004, 03:59 AM
Every so often I read posts about some "we" people determining how this is going to work. I'd like to know who-all can do more than ask, suggest, etc, for anything?

It shouldn't be all terribly hard to model stamina in the same way engine heat is done if tied to G force only. But where do you get the data? NASA may have it from the pursuit of space medicine and then again they may not have had the centrifuge guys lifting weights or anything at 2 to 6 G's. A lack of solid data would most likely be reason for Oleg to stop.

Adrenalin? That wears off in a while although I've had a close on on motorcycle where the end of the rush wasn't for about 30+ minutes and the letdown wasn't for much longer. Still how aould it model the jumpiness and jitteriness, the sharpening of senses and seeming slowdown of time in those critical first seconds? If there's panic then how do you model the loss of judgement? Make it like an MW or GM-1 tank? Pilot-WEP? Where is the data? Does the player trigger the state on need or is it imposed? For an RPG it might not matter.

No meter? Get to know how you are by how poorly you're doing? Nicer to know how strong you feel before you plan the next few moves in your pattern, wouldn't it be? Reaction flying is only good to a certain stage of player development.

It seems like the issue just gets bigger and more complex as the what if's and this-so-that's get thrown in. Maybe what the pilots' been eating and how much sleep he has gotten need to be in there for online wars since in many cases and places those things were actually part of the overall strategies? Don't think so then look at anywhere one or both sides harrassed enemy airfields at nights like say Henderson field where the Japanese alternated bombs with empty bottles getting the pilots out of their cots and into trenches regularly.

It's cold at altitude. Add that in, moderated by how good the plane heater was and the weather. Were there fumes in the cockpit? More, more. They are all real things.

Get out the dartboard and cover it with reasonable looking numbers maybe? I don't see Oleg working that way.


Neal

MatuDa
04-15-2004, 04:15 AM
Not modelling it at all is way more unrealistic than doing it fairly simply (falcon3 etc) it is very simple to make the pilot tire after long hard maneuvering and the only result needed is lower g-ability which would slowly become normal in normal flight.

It's been done before and since it could be a SWITCH-option it shouldn't worry ppl too much. And it definetly would add to the realism (or even bring it to this endless limitless 5g turnandburn.) Of course this is frightening if that is the way you like to fly and your flying is only based on continous tight maneuvers. That is not the way air battles were in ww2 though so you are not simulating, you will be gaming.

Gaming is fine too, but I'd like to get more realism.

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
04-15-2004, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Absolutely not. Adrenaline rushes are by no means constant or uniform. The whole point of modeling pilot stamina is to influence his strength directly as a result of a maneuver. Fatigue is not constant or uniform from takeoff until landing, and neither should adrenaline be. Each is caused by specific actions and situations. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it is and I do not dare to say the opposite. I only wanted to state that for playing this sim we can "assume" every pilot to be COOL enough to see what he does.
Basically a Adrenaline rush is a reaction to a situation which the you're not used to.

So in your case the rush you got from motorcycling is more or less due to athe fact that you were driving that bike/car/plane differently than usual.
We know that the effects of adrenaline also have disadvantages since you may overreact and have less control on what you do. However, the more experienced you are the more you're likely to be in "control" of your body and the less you're likely to get into a rush. That's why you practice after all.
It's more important to stay "cool" under combat conditions then mutate into hulk. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
the more experienced you are (take hartmann for example) the less likely you'Re to get adrenaline rushes.
The point is. We can neglect this fact to a a point where we say that every pilot in the GAME is equally under stress and has the same experience.
Otherwise we are in for a deep mess of RPG-style problems where not even combat situations come into play.(experience the feelings of a retunring Yak-1 pilot who just witnessed his comrades being killed and now awaits afine interrogation by NKWD-agents why he perfomred so well and whether he actually isn't a spy...)
The effects of adrenaline also depend heavily on your body. A lot of people may get extra-strength (let's call it for the sake of simplicity) but others may just panic etc.
Now I think it's obivous that E.Hartmann is likely to (just to quote him) take a coffee break and search for easier targtes wheras Ivan Flyowitsch is maybe eager to make him pay for the pain caused by his country etc.
This owuld lead us nowhere.
Therefore I'd say one "can" neglect the effects of adrenaline to an extent where it's modelled in a way it's equal for all.
Fatigue however can be determined in a way similiar to g-effects on bodies.
Let them model an average pilot who let's say has 80 flight hours on his vessel and is in his best youth years (20-26) with sportsmanlike stamina.
then let them model this body at several different conditions.
Hell I wouldn't even mind if the pilot is modelled after Oleg.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't want to say that adrenaline is UNIMPORTANT. I just want to say that it wont help us here since adrenaline has also bad sides which result in stronger fatigue and loss of perception (focus on target or simple panic).

Since we all "wear" the skins of aces, let's assume pilots are damn cool, but not hulk... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Salut !

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

jurinko
04-15-2004, 05:51 AM
the stamina system is a good idea. Definitely it is not natural that anyone can turn on the edge of blackout for 30min. I read good Bf 109 pilots at Eastern front were able to exhaust the enemy in turnfight so they disengaged the turn and exposed themselves to fire.

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

"With the advent of the FW 190A, this was not as critical as it once had been. The aircraft was a superb dogfighter, and its pilots used it as such. The previous summer, faced with slashing attacks by the 109s, the constant complaint of RAF pilots was that 'Jerry' didn't stay and fight, totally ignoring the fact that in the 109 this was tactically correct. Now they were repaid in spades: in his new Fw 190A, 'Jerry' stayed and fought as never before."

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 08:58 AM
jurinko:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Definitely it is not natural that anyone can turn on the edge of blackout for 30min. I read good Bf 109 pilots at Eastern front were able to exhaust the enemy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Anybody wish to comment about "good" Fb109 pilots?

"Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills. Most likely, the "ally" pilots lost BnZ Stamina faster than Japanese aerobatic pilot lost TnB Stamina.

With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

Male Dogfighter Stamina was not a factor... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But lexx you Noob, Saburo was a Great Ace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Excellent, now we are getting somewhere. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 09:24 AM
* I would love to see some way of turning a flight sim into a physical fight (I am Male Dogfighter too you know). But there are more ways to exhaust pilots than slow speed aerobatics.

Long flying times (invoked by setting fuel to 25% in DF servers depending on aircraft range)
High speed through air (more bumpy at low altitude than high, high wing loading helps)
High speed stick~n~rudder forces (call it BnZ Stamina)
Low speed Aerobatics (call it TnB Stamina)
Pilot Skill

The last one, pilot skill, one can think of as a non~swimmer wading into the ocean and Panicking and PANIC tends to exhaust one rather quickly and so one "gives up" and slips beneath the water. This is similar to Newbie pilots giving up and flying straight, from exhaustion overpowering their will to fight--something pilot skill can help overcome.

The problem is that modding TnB Stamina *only* as Requested in this thread gives the internet BnZ dogfighter a way to exhaust TnB planes without getting exhaustion themselves. Well, there was an interesting post at the sinhq regarding the influx of MS 3SCF simmers into FB recently, so....



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Snoop_Baron
04-15-2004, 09:49 AM
I think it is a very interesting idea. And initially I was all for it. But after reading this thread I do believe there are reasons to be concerned. But if they do add some sort of stamina system that doesn't give one style of fighting an unrealistic advantage over another or cause some other unintended problems then I would use it. But it should definetly be an option as I could easily see this going bad and then not wanting to use it.

Luthor on the question of fuel percentage. I agree there should be a tiering effect after long flights. But it should be based on actualy flying a long time and some mission parameters (for missions where you pick up after a long flight). If you are simulating a short intercept mission the ground crew is not going to give you a 100% fuel. They will give you the right amount of fuel for the job. Your pilot shouldn't magicaly be more tiered just because a short distance mission requires less fuel.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Snoop_Baron
04-15-2004, 09:50 AM
One question, I haven't played Falcon, but if this was in Falcon 3 why isn't it in Falcon 4 (or is it)?

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Fehler
04-15-2004, 10:30 AM
Again, apples and oranges.

Adrenaline has absolutely NOTHING to do with the outside forces that affect the body. Adrenaline cannot lessen the effect of gravitational pull exerted on the body.

That would be like saying that if you were in an adenaline excited state you would fall slower to the earth!

It is really simple physics people. At 2G's your body feels like it weighs twice as much. So do the controls to some degree. 50 pounds of stick pressure at 3 G's will not feel like 50 pounds of stick pressure. And adrenaline has nothing to do with it.

I am not talking about exhaustion because of time sitting in one place. I am talking about gravitational forces that every pilot faces in high gravitational maneuvers.

And to those that say, well, we should model in this and that if we model in pilot stamina DUE TO GRAVITATIONAL FORCES, but in actuality, the game already does SOME of that with blackouts and redouts.

Your arguements are silly. Who do we base this average on? Well, who did we base the average on for blackouts and redouts? Oh.. X number of excess G's causes a blackout. Well, the same thing can be applied for stamina loss. Dear God, the equasion is already in the game, just not being used to it's fullest extent. Are some of you really that stupid?

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 10:40 AM
Snoop:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But it should be based on actualy flying a long time and some mission parameters (for missions where you pick up after a long flight).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's why I put in Stamina reduction dependent on aircraft range. In real life a P~51 or Zero pilot carrying 25% fuel would be exhausted and ready to land, in most missions. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You often read about P~51 pilots struggling to stay awake on long missions. Of course once the combat starts the pilot is all alert and adrenalized, but I am sure being groggy on long flights would make one more vulnerable to the Bounce, as well as just making more and more simple mistakes.


Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am not talking about exhaustion because of time sitting in one place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Only the computer dogfighters sit in one place. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Willey
04-15-2004, 02:18 PM
This does not sound like an idea - it is an idea! I just also said that over here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=984106453

rosaenrico
04-15-2004, 03:18 PM
Hi all
I totally agree on the "stamina modelling" thing. In my opinion this would be a very great improvement towards realism, adequate tactics, etc.
As said before, regarding the "can't be done correctly, since too much factors involved": having this effect set to zero (currently we have so) means that the pilot is assumed to be Superman; so even if Oleg models stamina in a simplified and averaged model, we have a pilot closer to human being, and apparently this will be an improvement.
Neither stall characteristics, according to some players, are perfectly modelled and probably it would be impossible: has Oleg to ignore that a plane can stall because of the complexity of the phenomenon? Obviously, a simplified version is more real than nothing.
Just my opinion.
S!

WWMaxGunz
04-15-2004, 03:31 PM
Adrenaline does not change G's, it changes exhaustion by giving strength and later accenting fatigue. Nothing silly there.

It also needs a trigger, like heavy danger or so. Even sports players use body adrenaline. It is not just for death danger but both flight ~and~ fight actions. You can work up some on need esp if you are younger. It is just not as easy to model. Still as a WEP type of form where stamina is like engine heat it could be possible.

Not saying it must be or should be there, only it is real and it is possible and like stamina, where is the data to come from?


Neal

Fehler
04-15-2004, 06:03 PM
OK, I'll explain this once again.

Constantly flying on verge of blackout with no penality is silly.

I sit here day after day reading how this plane is 5KPH too slow, or this one's turns are 1 second too fast or this gun dispurses 2 feet more than it should. Yet we kid ourselves when we take to the virtual air and really think a pilot could pull off some of the things we continuously do in our pixel planes for 10 minutes at a time.

Oleg has tried to fix some of that with red/black-outs. But none of you say it's unrealistic, or needs NASA space medicine to prove. It is part of the game, without question, and really no more than speculation by the creator of this sim. The fact is each one of us would red/black out at different times due to our physical attributes or limitations. Believe me, that's why you never see a fat fighter pilot! But there is a model in the game, and we fly by it's rules. Why is that so hard to understand?

OK, given that you actually understand the aforementioned statement, why do you not think Oleg would be equally qualified to institute a process whereas the pilot would also become increasingly less able to make those tight, high G maneuvers after a period of time? It's already in the game, so to speak, when you get injured. But no one screams, "Hey, is Oleg a doctor? How does he know I cant yank the controls at a 60% injured state?"

All I am asking is, would Oleg consider instituting a similar process in BoB since he is obviosly working on a new game engine, currently? It really isnt that complex.

Pull (x) G's over (x) time gives your pilot less ability to pull (x) G's.

Once your pilot reaches his limit, he doesnt die of exhaustion for God's sake, he just requires some time to regain the ability to pull high G maneuvers again.

There could be some sort of interface (Which I would turn off, personally, because I would rather learn to get the feeling of it than look at some sort of "Health bar") or it could just be part of the stick forces that are simulated already.

I am not saying we need to model in whether the pilot stubbed his toe when he scrambled to his airplane or silly crap like that.

Oleg would draw the line and make the rules. Just like he does in other parts of the Sim now.

It would add endless possibilities to the sim. "Should I engage this bandit? My pilot was in an exhausting fight moments ago and I may not be able to keep inside this guy." Or "OK, he turns better, but I saw him in a dogfight moments ago, and I might be able to outturn him because he is weak." Either way could be answered by, "Oops, I was wrong, and now I am running for my life!"

Well that's my thoughts on it. I am merely talking about something that would be simple to impliment, and would add to the realism of the sim.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

3.JG51_Stecher
04-15-2004, 09:43 PM
-------------------------------------
Originally posted by JaBo_HH--Gotcha:
.....I only wanted to state that for playing this sim we can "assume" every pilot to be COOL enough to see what he does.....

.....The point is. We can neglect this fact to a a point where we say that every pilot in the GAME is equally under stress and has the same experience.....
-------------------------------------

I agree that it's best to assume that the pilots can equally control their adrenaline rushes mentally. That is to say that they aren't panicking or getting jittery. But to also ignore the increase in strength that it provides would be like to ignore the decrease in strength that fatigue from constant Gs causes. It is contradictory to support one and not the other. Pilots who control the mental aspects of adrenaline cannot, even if they wanted to, suppress the increase in strength. It is a physiological function. It happens, just as getting tired does.

----------------------------
Originally posted by Fehler:
Adrenaline has absolutely NOTHING to do with the outside forces that affect the body. Adrenaline cannot lessen the effect of gravitational pull exerted on the body.

That would be like saying that if you were in an adenaline excited state you would fall slower to the earth!
----------------------------

No one ever said it did. The stamina system is not to calculate the immediate effect from Gs, but rather the accumulated weakening from them. We already have the black/red out system for an immediate reaction. Just as we are discussing fatigue working against strength, we need to include adrenaline as helping strength. The question is what values each should have. If we can establish some parameters we can start thinking of possible values and how they would work.
Does anyone know how many Gs our pilots are sustaining in hard turns? Black/red out points? How about pounds of stick pressure? If we can get these established, then we can start thinking about how to implement a system.

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

E_Temperament
04-15-2004, 10:08 PM
IMO we are already under the influence of stamina and /or adrenaline simply by playing this Sim. How many of us can stay in a turn fight in the Sim and not get exhausted and or sweat on our hands and foreheads after 3 minutes of a turn fight. I for one suffer from adrenaline every time I start this Sim up. If I subject myself to an intense dogfight with an online opponent I get sweaty and tired, often my eyes get sore and red just from sitting in front of the screen and intently looking for tiny dots to chase after. I'm sure that the more experienced Simmers have the same feelings of fatigue but can endure them better than those of us who are just average Simmers. If we then impose limits on sustained G turns this will more than likely negate our own skill and experience at maintaining high G turns. I would rather see more accurate weather effects, stalls, gyroscopic precession, prop wash, ground effect, torque, and pilot head movement modelled as opposed to stamina drain.

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 10:54 PM
LOL eye strain from monitor and small dot sizes causes simmer fatigue.

Still, we don't "feel" the Gee forces (or "Fehler Forces"), we don't shake and rattle for 2 hours in cockpit, we don't suffer cold at high altitudes with poor heating (P~38) or open cockpits. We don't feel the heat of North Africa or summer Spain that caused Adolf "The Gallant" Galland to fly Naked in Spanish Civil WAR. Take computer on rollercoaster on cold winter night and fire up the FB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, the heat forced Galland to fly in his underwear at least (the *real* reason ubi did not let Oleg put pilot models in the cockpit). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fehler
04-15-2004, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by E_Temperament:
IMO we are already under the influence of stamina and /or adrenaline simply by playing this Sim. How many of us can stay in a turn fight in the Sim and not get exhausted and or sweat on our hands and foreheads after 3 minutes of a turn fight. I for one suffer from adrenaline every time I start this Sim up. If I subject myself to an intense dogfight with an online opponent I get sweaty and tired, often my eyes get sore and red just from sitting in front of the screen and intently looking for tiny dots to chase after. I'm sure that the more experienced Simmers have the same feelings of fatigue but can endure them better than those of us who are just average Simmers. If we then impose limits on sustained G turns this will more than likely negate our own skill and experience at maintaining high G turns. I would rather see more accurate weather effects, stalls, gyroscopic precession, prop wash, ground effect, torque, and pilot head movement modelled as opposed to stamina drain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I am thinking the first part of your post was meant to be funy/sarcastic, and It was!

The second part is already being worked on for BoB. I was just adding in a real affect that should be included as well.

We are on the same page "I think." But looking at it from two points of view.

OK, now I should cut and paste Lexx's blurp about bumpy air, but I am sure he will be right along to post it so I will save the effort. LOL

Maybe it's a bad idea, but it was in other flight sims, and really added to the effect and feeling of real combat. Stick forces seemed heavier after doing endless loops and G maneuvers and eventually, you just couldnt pull the same maneuvers as when your pilot was fresh in battle. But hey, if you guys think that a pilot can easily outperform his machine, and do some of the absurd maneuvers you see online over and over again until the cows come home, so be it.

But if that is so, why not take stick forces off all together? Why have a 109 or P38 that is hard to pull out of a dive? Because it is more real? Based on what? Based on what people think an average pilot could do. If a 109's elevator is heavy in a dive due to Eric Brown, who is to say that I am not much stronger than he, and would think that the stick was relatively easy? I am sure some pilots could have pulled the stick enough to recover from a dive, just because the average pilot couldnt.

That is the same logic applied in the opposite direction from my request, and guess what, it makes just as much sense... none!


The game models in blackout/redout to a standard. It models in stick forces to a standard. Those standards are good guesses at best, taken from pilot accounts with some data, and hoe Oleg thinks a typical pilot could perform. Well, what about maneuverability when injured.. How was that determined? Oleg did all of the above with a very good, educated guess! I would also trust him to make the same educated guess when modeling in G-Stress induced fatigue.

Why is that so hard to understand? And why do some of you want to make the system so difficult?

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Dmitri9mm
04-15-2004, 11:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
* I would love to see some way of turning a flight sim into a physical fight (I am Male Dogfighter too you know). But there are more ways to exhaust pilots than slow speed aerobatics.

Long flying times (invoked by setting fuel to 25% in DF servers depending on aircraft range)
High speed through air (more bumpy at low altitude than high, high wing loading helps)
High speed stick~n~rudder forces (call it BnZ Stamina)
Low speed Aerobatics (call it TnB Stamina)
Pilot Skill

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First: Lexx, plz read my first post (I actually believe you already did) What you are suggesting is all there, it was a part of the original concept, exept pilot skill (which I believe should bew left out in the interest of equality among players, though it would be great to have it worked into the AI-skill level)

Next: WOW!
I never thought this topic could bring up such a debate. This is really great because everyone is taking it so seriously, and most people have some really good points, both for and against!

S! and regards too all, all I need now is some feedback from the dev. team. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 11:47 PM
Fehler its a great idea. Your ideas have strong merit. We are in the same chapter, if not yet the same page "I think." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>you just couldn't pull the same maneuvers as when your pilot was fresh in battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We think you mean fresh from takeoff. A pilot tired from flying--an alien concept for computer dogfighters--will not enter battle "fresh," depending on how long his/her flight was. Its my guess that a tired pilot may have *some* reduced ability to tolerate Gees when first entering battle. This is very long term exhaustion (in game terms that is). This is not fresh. Now, as all pilots begin to tire from the moment of takeoff, this may cancel out (and you are off the hook). However, consider the popular 25% fuel loading of P~51 internet dogfighters take off with when it should be 50% fuel before entering battle. (we are assuming here that we have heard about the long range and endurance of P~51). Fb109 simmers climbing to intercept should be more "fresh" than the P~51 simmers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And why do some of you want to make the system so difficult?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because we want realism, remember? The alternative, tossed about earlier, is that the BnZ internet dogfighters simply want a Cheat to stop the TnB internet dogfighters from avoiding their passes. We must convince the board this is not our intention. We have not done so yet. If this is the case I would suggest turning off External View to stop TnB Cheaters from checking for the Bounce would be far more helpful to the BnZ dogfighers.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-16-2004, 12:12 AM
LL:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We have not done so yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, reading you in the other thread made sense. I am more convinced now. Thanks.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

MatuDa
04-16-2004, 01:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rosaenrico:
Hi all
I totally agree on the "stamina modelling" thing. In my opinion this would be a very great improvement towards realism, adequate tactics, etc.
As said before, regarding the "can't be done correctly, since too much factors involved": having this effect set to zero (currently we have so) means that the pilot is assumed to be Superman; so even if Oleg models stamina in a simplified and averaged model, we have a pilot closer to human being, and apparently this will be an improvement.
Neither stall characteristics, according to some players, are perfectly modelled and probably it would be impossible: has Oleg to ignore that a plane can stall because of the complexity of the phenomenon? Obviously, a simplified version is more real than nothing.
Just my opinion.
S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

Another thing, I think we should drop the adrenalin-matter since all pilots in a battle for life and death are very much under heavy mental stress and adrenaline surges. The way adrenaline works mentally is already in you when entering a fight (at least I have heartrate improvement and sweatty hands in difficult fights, especially in VEF where dying has more meaning than in df). Adrenaline doesn't give you superhuman strenghts either unlike some seem to think. If that were the case all world class weightlifters would be held at gunpoint in the finals.

Also Luthors input, the More Tired After Long FLight-subject is not really on the spot here. If you have a dull flight say in finngulf map, flying 1 hours with no contacts you tend to get sloppier. So that is also modelled kind of. Like he said (i think) we still havent got the temp or exhaust gases etc but to some degree that lapse of consentration is "modelled". That has very little to do with physical expiration caused by pulling/pushing -2 to +5G continously for 2 minutes.

LEXX_Luthor
04-16-2004, 01:47 AM
Its on the spot. Flying WW2 fighters is physically very exhausting (a fairly new concept for computer flight simmers). Going into battle exhausted is the issue here, and its being ignored for some reason.

We still have not examined this...

With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills.

I don't know what is going on here, but I am willing to look into it. Is it possible that the BnZ pilots making high speed passes get just as tired as TnB pilots "pulling gees" at slow speeds? How do we model that? Less accuracy in aim for BnZ pilots while TnB pilots black out quickly? [sarcasm]

Also, adreneline kinda wakes you up. Say you are being sloppy and not checking six, somebody shoots you and if you are lucky and they miss you get on the ball real fast...possibly. Panic is another option that has been studied in WW2 fighter piliots. Here I mean Panic as in information overload leading to less experienced pilots making severe mistakes in a dogfight.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

MatuDa
04-16-2004, 02:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Its on the spot. Flying WW2 fighters is physically very exhausting (a fairly new concept for computer flight simmers). Going into battle exhausted is the issue here, and its being ignored for some reason.

We still have not examined this...

With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills.

I don't know what is going on here, but I am willing to look into it. Is it possible that the BnZ pilots making high speed passes get just as tired as TnB pilots "pulling gees" at slow speeds? How do we model that? Less accuracy in aim for BnZ pilots while TnB pilots black out quickly? [sarcasm]

Also, adreneline kinda wakes you up. Say you are being sloppy and not checking six, somebody shoots you and if you are lucky and they miss you get on the ball real fast...possibly. Panic is another option that has been studied in WW2 fighter piliots. Here I mean Panic as in information overload leading to less experienced pilots making severe mistakes in a dogfights

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not mean to undermine your opinion, just that it doesn't actually have that much impact on the actual physical exhaustation it is more on the mental side. I am not saying it is physically easy to fly a warbird but in relation normal flight to tnb combat there shouldn't be much to discuss should there? Then again on the mental side, like you said, when combat starts the adrenaline *wakes* the pilot up from the mental tiredness of a long flight.

If we could first have the tiring effects of high g maneuvers implemented on pilots ability to pull G then we could continue by trying to implement things that have lesser impact.

People who are worried about this crippling turnfighters to fall prey to bnz easier please consider that by flying at 700km/h the bnz fella is also doing a LOT of work to pull from that dive. Usually way more than the simple quick break needed by the prey to avoid the attack.. thus having also an impact on how many dives or loops the bnz:r can do. It is NOT about making this game easier for bnz ppl, it is about realism and it DOES cripple bnz flyers as well. Stay in low speed and you can make tight maneuvers with less G, for a much longer time, even 30 minutes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-16-2004, 02:26 AM
Thanks!! and yes undermine my position because it forces me to examine my own position, or try to salvage what's left of it.

Okay, what about high speed stick and rudder forces, the BnZ pilot would get tired arms and legs, and get weaker...but then he/she too has the adreneline shot (just punch the key for pilot WEP or pilot "Boost" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif).

I think we may find common ground here. But I will grant Fehler that nothing is as Brutal as the high gee forces from turning hard. Rolling is another thing too. Also, rapid head movement when pulling high gees is said to cause dizziness real bad. Just some ideas.


MatuDa:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>People who are worried about this crippling turnfighters to fall prey to bnz easier please consider that by flying at 700km/h the bnz fella is also doing a LOT of work to pull from that dive. Usually way more than the simple quick break needed by the prey to avoid the attack.. thus having also an impact on how many dives or loops the bnz:r can do. It is NOT about making this game easier for bnz ppl, it is about realism and it DOES cripple bnz flyers as well. Stay in low speed and you can make tight maneuvers with less G, for a much longer time, even 30 minutes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WWMaxGunz
04-16-2004, 04:00 AM
TnB usually means slower speeds, less G's at the same radii. But that's why good BnZ or E-fighting stresses not making many hard turns which mainly blow your energy anyway.

I hope some people don't equate the physical condition of those pilots with your average shop worker. Mostly, they're not. Keeping the 2+ G turns short, a good fighter pilot should be able to recover back for the next "feat". Flying for hours in freezing cold is a bigger drain, even an hour while you can't move much to generate body heat and need to hold the stick steady doesn't help much.

Adrenaline, superhuman? Go look into sports medicine or sports careers. When do baseball players and boxers tend to retire? See if you can't find it's "when the adrenals (glands) start going". You don't need a gun to your head but having tracers fly by or hits on your plane can mean much the same thing. Maybe find an Olympic grade athlete who did running, skiing, bobsled or other similar activities and tell them they really needed a gun to their heads to do their best. Even weightlifters get psyched for competition. Guys in combat have cleared 9 and 10 foot walls, ran carrying buddies (hell I've done that in relay races during afternoon PT although it wasn't sprinting) and done other things not superhuman as lifting and rolling cars or other extremes. That is normal behaviour when you can move at all. But give examples and then the counter is always the extremes.

Sure, just count the hormone state as normal activity, there's the other side of it. I ain't saying it's got to be there, just something to consider and nothing Joe Average might remember outside of sex, which the gun is not not to your head there either. That is adrenalin, superhuman or not.


Neal

PBNA-Boosher
04-16-2004, 06:37 AM
I love this idea! Awesome!

E_Temperament
04-16-2004, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
LOL eye strain from monitor and small dot sizes causes simmer fatigue.

Still, we don't "feel" the Gee forces (or "Fehler Forces"), we don't shake and rattle for 2 hours in cockpit, we don't suffer cold at high altitudes with poor heating (P~38) or open cockpits. We don't feel the heat of North Africa or summer Spain that caused Adolf _"The Gallant"_ Galland to fly Naked in Spanish Civil WAR. Take computer on rollercoaster on cold winter night and fire up the FB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, the heat forced Galland to fly in his underwear at least (the *real* reason ubi did not let Oleg put pilot models in the cockpit). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish _"Gladiator"_ listed as _J8A_ _...in Aces Expansion Pack_


_"You will still have FB , you will lose _nothing"__ ~WUAF_Badsight
_"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..."_ ~Bearcat99
_"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age"_ ~ElAurens
:
_"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore_!_"_ ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget the dreaded sunburn on the forehead from facing into the sun for 2 hours while in mid summer. Actually the P47 cockpit was like sitting in a furnace, the heat from the sun combined with engine heat was very fatigueing during summer.

MatuDa
04-19-2004, 12:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
TnB usually means slower speeds, less G's at the same radii.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The whole point of this conversation is trying to get some realism to the way people maneuver at the edge of blackout for several minutes...

WWMaxGunz
04-19-2004, 03:12 AM
That many G's, the plane should not be able to sustain it for the bleed. Find doghouse charts for these planes and look at where the 5 or 6 G lines are then look halfway or more to the left for the sustained turn lines. The only way to keep up prolonged high G turns I've read about is in tight descending spirals and those are not going to last many minutes at the edge of blackout before you run out of alt.

Pilots should have strength problems due to stamina loss at less G's held for periods of many minutes. I am wondering if the longer you run close to blackout the less G's it takes in the sim to stay in that condition? In that case, there already is stamina modelled. Does anyone know how many G's we are pulling from time to time or is the grey/blackouts being used as a G measure?

I haven't usually run more than seconds like that as it hurts my speed to run even less so. Time to find another strategy when it comes to that.


Neal

Dmitri9mm
04-19-2004, 07:33 AM
Well, this is a very nice discussion, but without some feedback from the dev. team it's not really worth much.
So please Oleg or anyone else from 1C give us a clue: DO you think this stamina system could be included in the game? Are you planning to implement it? Or is it just a plain bad idea?
We need your replies!

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/air/italy/fiat/00305.jpg
&gt;"Flatspin", what is that supposed to mean? This aircraft is entirely spin-proof!&lt;