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Wolfmeister1010
03-18-2014, 10:43 PM
Although it is likely that the current gen game takes place in France/England, let us not forget that there is still the last gen game to think about, assuming the rumors are true.

According to this article, and our theories, Russia is a likely location as well, so it would make sense of the last gen game is in Russia. And, it is likely that this game will deal with Eve. Perhaps the ancestor of this modern Russian assassin is connected. She said that she was talking with Eve afterall. And, just because of intuition, I would assume that an "Eve" centric game would have a female lead. Who could it be? An ancestor of this Russian assassin "Galina" or something? Or maybe Nikolai's daughter?

Whatever happens, I am happy that the whole Eve thing finally seems to be coming together. It is likely that Eve will be the key to defeating Juno. And, just like there have been descendants of Aita, perhaps there are also reincarnations of Eve, who are the key to defeating Juno in the modern age. Maybe the ancestor we play as is a reincarnation, or someone she knows is? Maybe Aveline has SOMETHING to do with it, considering that she also learned about Eve in Liberation. Maybe that DAMN BOX will finally be revealed to have something to do with Eve.

Here is the article: http://www.inquisitr.com/1174496/assassins-creed-5-could-ac-5-have-a-strong-female-lead-character/

LoyalACFan
03-18-2014, 10:49 PM
Article is buggered from the start because they use the fake Great Fall thing as the center of their argument.

But yeah, on one hand I'm glad they're finally wrapping up the whole Adam and Eve thing (apparently), but on the other hand it's been five ****ing years and I don't even care anymore. Just give me a cool historical setting, protagonist, and story, then you can do whatever you want with the sci-fi bunk. It's really been losing its appeal ever since AC2.

Bojanglesz
03-19-2014, 12:12 AM
But yeah, on one hand I'm glad they're finally wrapping up the whole Adam and Eve thing (apparently), but on the other hand it's been five ****ing years and I don't even care anymore. Just give me a cool historical setting, protagonist, and story, then you can do whatever you want with the sci-fi bunk. It's really been losing its appeal ever since AC2.

This.

I don't really care who I play as, as long as they don't sexualise the protagonist like they've done with every female MP character (with the exception of the Pioneer, who is my favourite lady by far). It's fair to say we can trust Ubisoft as they didn't sexualise Aveline, and they also dabbled into it with the whole Subject 1 files from Black Flag, but then again, if the protagonist was a slightly overweight, middle-aged assassin, it wouldn't have the same effect on the audience what a 'sexy' 20-something younger female would have...

But if they did use the first idea then I would have total respect for Ubisoft forever more.

Wolfmeister1010
03-19-2014, 01:08 AM
This.

I don't really care who I play as, as long as they don't sexualise the protagonist like they've done with every female MP character (with the exception of the Pioneer, who is my favourite lady by far). It's fair to say we can trust Ubisoft as they didn't sexualise Aveline, and they also dabbled into it with the whole Subject 1 files from Black Flag, but then again, if the protagonist was a slightly overweight, middle-aged assassin, it wouldn't have the same effect on the audience what a 'sexy' 20-something younger female would have...

But if they did use the first idea then I would have total respect for Ubisoft forever more.

That is a bit of sexism right there.

They can feature a 20 something non overweight female as an assassin and not sexualize her. It is all about perception of what "sexualizing" is.

But agreed, they did a wonderful job with Aveline. She is beautiful, but nothing about her is skimpy or overly sexualized..well, I guess other than her "lady outfit" but that is point of the lady outfit, to attract men.

ze_topazio
03-19-2014, 01:28 AM
Males in this series are highly sexualized, you are not allowed to complain about good looking females.

Wolfmeister1010
03-19-2014, 01:48 AM
Males in this series are highly sexualized, you are not allowed to complain about good looking females.

Ezio in Revelations was SOO overly sexualized lol.

Shahkulu101
03-19-2014, 01:59 AM
Desmond, Altair, Ezio, Old Ezio and Connor are all impossibly handsome. They also have relatively muscular bodies. Complete and utter masculinization - how dare ye Ubisoft!

Perk89
03-19-2014, 03:33 AM
Aveline was boring and left a rather poor taste, and there's really no point in doing something just to do something. If there's a great story to tell then by all means do it but don't do something just for the sake of it. A good story should be crafted for the purpose of telling a good story, not constructing a story around an idea that's just being done for the heck of it and trying to make it work.


the question we really need to ask ourselves is why we want this. Most people seem to want this just because, and posters in this thread have even stated that there doesn't even have to be any real acknowledgement of her, as a her. Well then what's the point? Or more accurately, whats your point?


If you want a female protagonist then you either want it just because, or because you want to hear and see all the usual tropes and idioms that will go along with having one. Do you want that? Do you want story time dedicated to her struggle trying to "fit into a man's world", and yada yada yada? Things that are overall irrelevant to the plot at hand but must be incorporated to make the character feel plausible? (Because face it, if you want an accurate depiction of a woman in a time in a historical context like this, sexism will have to be pertinent to the plot) Ubi didn't back down from whaling. Ubi didn't back down from black slave owners. They wouldn't back down from this.

(And you can't tell me that walking around in a dress with all your abilities hindered was even the slightest bit fun... Just to toss that in)

Wolfmeister1010
03-19-2014, 03:44 AM
Aveline was boring and left a rather poor taste, and there's really no point in doing something just to do something. If there's a great story to tell then by all means do it but don't do something just for the sake of it. A good story should be crafted for the purpose of telling a good story, not constructing a story around an idea that's just being done for the heck of it and trying to make it work.


the question we really need to ask ourselves is why we want this. Most people seem to want this just because, and posters in this thread have even stated that there doesn't even have to be any real acknowledgement of her, as a her. Well then what's the point? Or more accurately, whats your point?


If you want a female protagonist then you either want it just because, or because you want to hear and see all the usual tropes and idioms that will go along with having one. Do you want that? Do you want story time dedicated to her struggle trying to "fit into a man's world", and yada yada yada? Things that are overall irrelevant to the plot at hand but must be incorporated to make the character feel plausible? (Because face it, if you want an accurate depiction of a woman in a time in a historical context like this, sexism will have to be pertinent to the plot) Ubi didn't back down from whaling. Ubi didn't back down from black slave owners. They wouldn't back down from this.

(And you can't tell me that walking around in a dress with all your abilities hindered was even the slightest bit fun... Just to toss that in)

The really depressing thing, is that for a woman to have a complete game about herself during ANY time before the late 20th century WITHOUT having some aspect having to do with a woman being in a "man's world" would be unrealistic. It is historically impossible for there to have been a woman who did all the things men did (not even beginning to mention them CLIMBING BUILDINGS AND STABBING PEOPLE IN THE STREET) and NOT have ANY mention of women's rights. You contradict yourself, and your logic states that there are NO times when a woman could be a protagonist. You don't want "man's world" plots. You agree that it is impossible for there to have been times in history before recently where women's rights don't come into play. So basically you are saying that women should not be protagonists ever lol.

Just like how there are SO few opportunities for there to have been female assassin in previous games, because it would just not make sense historically. The reason why it worked for Aveline was BECAUSE she was in a society that highly valued and respected the rich noble women. There are SO few opportunities in history for Ubisoft to have a female protagonist.

LoyalACFan
03-19-2014, 03:53 AM
Desmond, Altair, Ezio, Old Ezio and Connor are all impossibly handsome. They also have relatively muscular bodies. Complete and utter masculinization - how dare ye Ubisoft!

But they don't run around in Speedos. That's sort of my own personal issue with the portrayal of female characters. I don't get particularly up at arms about it because I tend to think that some people blow it out of proportion, but when I see a female action lead prancing around with double-D cleavage spilling out all over the box art, I can't help but roll my eyes a little.

Shahkulu101
03-19-2014, 04:00 AM
But they don't run around in Speedos. That's sort of my own personal issue with the portrayal of female characters. I don't get particularly up at arms about it because I tend to think that some people blow it out of proportion, but when I see a female action lead prancing around with double-D cleavage spilling out all over the box art, I can't help but roll my eyes a little.

Roll your eyes?! You mean downwards, towards the cleavage! Get 'em ladies!

But nah, I know what you mean. But sexualisation of females is NOT an issue prevalent in AC at all - at least not the single player. I don't know why the non-issue of having a female protagonist is even discussed at all, and how it always turns into this sort of thing. As long as the bloody protagonist is human and mentally and physically capable then yes we can have them in the game for **** sake no need for these 'arguments'.

Wolfmeister1010
03-19-2014, 04:12 AM
As long as the bloody protagonist is human and mentally and physically capable then yes we can have them in the game for **** sake

I love you

pirate1802
03-19-2014, 04:36 AM
Meh, I'm okay with MP characters sexualized a little because it fits with the concept of MP, a game console developed for the masses.

On the other hand I havent yet found a case of overt sexualization of females in the SP. I'm confident that if they introduce more female SP characters they're gonna do her justice and not make her a pyramid tittied monster :rolleyes: running around in speedos or something.

I-Like-Pie45
03-19-2014, 05:14 AM
why are you people worrying about sexualization

this is Ubisoft we're talking about

not Team Ninja

LoyalACFan
03-19-2014, 06:21 AM
Roll your eyes?! You mean downwards, towards the cleavage! Get 'em ladies!

But nah, I know what you mean. But sexualisation of females is NOT an issue prevalent in AC at all - at least not the single player. I don't know why the non-issue of having a female protagonist is even discussed at all, and how it always turns into this sort of thing. As long as the bloody protagonist is human and mentally and physically capable then yes we can have them in the game for **** sake no need for these 'arguments'.

Right.


why are you people worrying about sexualization

this is Ubisoft we're talking about

not Team Ninja

Yeah, Ubi's not one of the chief offenders by any means.

avk111
03-19-2014, 07:13 AM
I recon Ubisoft should work on the average demand of protagonist sex gender rather and try to be a smart guy and introduce a change into the title despite the consumer demand .e.g. introducing a women assassin instead of a man though demand and statistics say otherwise.

In my opinion I have been following the current Gen game titles and most of the titles dont have the same grip they had on previous game generation consoles time of release.

There are some couple of titles out there that grip the consumer to buy the titles but it was nothing like the previous game generation releases thus Ubisoft can still have the upper hand in competing
with other game titles and developers.

pirate1802
03-19-2014, 07:41 AM
What I don't understand is, why introducing a woman assassin such a big change? Was introducing an Italian instead on an Arab changing a formula? Or a Native? Playing as Templar (ffs) is a bigger change than playing as a female assassin. And people liked it. Its not like they are talking about introducing an alien assassin? Its not being the smart guy, its called bringing a little variation in you protagonists and keeping it fresh. Maybe I'm overreacting a little but as long as introducing a woman is seen as a groundbreaking earthshattering change, gaming would be continued to be viewed as the hobby of ***** teenagers in their mum's basements.

Btw I'd like to see the statistics that indicate the "huge" demand for male assassins over female ones. Its a vicious cycle. Publishers don't publish games with female protagonists fearing it won't be well-received. As a result players become comfortable in a male-only world and view introducing a female as an earthshattering change.

Templar_Az
03-19-2014, 08:00 AM
Id prefer playing as a male Assassin rather than a female one but thats just my preference.

shobhit7777777
03-19-2014, 08:23 AM
Male female..does it matter? As long as he/she is interesting.

I would be really excited though, primarily because it might lead to new gameplay elements.

@Wolfmeister

Do you live in Siberia?

LoyalACFan
03-19-2014, 08:43 AM
I would be really excited though, primarily because it might lead to new gameplay elements.

This is actually what I'd try to stay away from TBH; introducing gameplay mechanics just because the character is a woman. They tried that a little bit with Liberation, and it was a train wreck. The persona thing was gimmicky as all hell, and while it avoided being sexist, it just didn't work as a gameplay element and there was a serious narrative disconnect between Lady Aveline and Assassin Aveline. I mean, these are historical games and they shouldn't wave away the fact that an independent woman would have been unusual in most pre-20th century contexts, but that can be addressed in the plot. They don't need to go overboard and tack on a bunch of "girly" stuff just because they can. Sure, they can have parts where her femininity inherently gives her access to certain places if they want, but I never want to see anything like a seduction gameplay mechanic again.

alekiratu
03-19-2014, 09:51 AM
A game in Russia

A game set in Russia is not going to happen for quite some time.

Barlog06: Is there a chance that one of future Assassin's Creed games will take place in Russia? I know that we have comic books and I enjoyed them a lot. But game is something different! And Saint Petersburg is an amazing city, you can come here and watch it yourself) It will be awesome to climb on some Saint Petersburg buildings. It will be as cool as Venezia.

Darby McDevitt: This would be cool. I have a friend from St. Petersburg and she talks fondly of it. However, we already did Orelov's story in the comic books, so we would be unlikely to go there with a game so soon after. But maybe one day!

From: https://acinitiates.com/forum/discussion/3904/page/15

But Galina as a Modern Day Protagonist in Russia?

Probably Not:

killerman_2012: Hi Darby, I wonder if we're going to control a third-person hero in the present again. I think it was a little "inexpressive" when we controlled a first-person character in AC4.

Darby McDevitt: Probably not. We want to focus our efforts on always making a compelling historical hero character, so that the storyline doesn't get so muddled and chaotic. So the present day will probably star "you" from now on, but in very different contexts for each game.

From: https://acinitiates.com/forum/discussion/3904/page/16

So if we are playing as Galina we will not be "you" so it's not happening.

The question is, why didn't you include a "not going to happen choice?":p


As for a female protag, I'm up for it. We could see some new perspectives on things. I'm pretty sure the Koh-I-Noor will have something to do with Eve and Juno. It can only be used by gods or women.

shobhit7777777
03-19-2014, 11:32 AM
This is actually what I'd try to stay away from TBH; introducing gameplay mechanics just because the character is a woman. They tried that a little bit with Liberation, and it was a train wreck. The persona thing was gimmicky as all hell, and while it avoided being sexist, it just didn't work as a gameplay element and there was a serious narrative disconnect between Lady Aveline and Assassin Aveline. I mean, these are historical games and they shouldn't wave away the fact that an independent woman would have been unusual in most pre-20th century contexts, but that can be addressed in the plot. They don't need to go overboard and tack on a bunch of "girly" stuff just because they can. Sure, they can have parts where her femininity inherently gives her access to certain places if they want, but I never want to see anything like a seduction gameplay mechanic again.

I guess this is the attitude the AC2 dev team went in with - "AC1's concept couldn't be executed perfectly...lets completely ditch the 'Assasin Sim' experience...yay!!!" -__-

And sexist? dafuq?

Can't comment on seduction as a mechanic but an attractive person will be more socially mobile within any environment especially if it is populated by members of the opposite sex - male or female.

If I'm playing as an attractive female assassin (and it WILL be an attractive lead...even OP says so) then I'd definitely expect a greater degree of social mobility and leniency afforded to me by the male guards. I'd expect to be able to distract and lure those damn mooks by playing the "Pretty girl in trouble" card because that is what a female assassin allows me to do.
Given the time period I'd love to be able to covertly carry weapons and items disguised as accessories - Victorian era assassin? She carries a badass Umbrella which doubles as a weapon.

I'd DEFINITELY prefer a female assassin solely because it would make the idea of playing a blade in the crowd that much more plausible...instead of a surly, burly, muscly dude covered in ****ing armour attached to 36 types of weapons

Cliches doesn't apply here because there are real world precedents which prove the above concept

During the 70s and 80s the British employed undercover female operators as part of an elite and highly secretive surveillance unit for keeping tabs on the IRA (Google 14th Intelligence Unit)...and they were highly successful BECAUSE they were female.

Israeli intelligence agencies employ women in many roles - surveillance to assassinations
The French DGSE uses female operators for undercover work...and sharp end operations - Google the sinking of the 'Rainbow Warrior' - 2 french agents posing as a couple

Heck, an Israeli SF units which specializes in undercover work (google 'Duvdevan' or 'Mistaravim') for snatch operations swears by female disguises - Burqas - because they get **** all attention. One ex Israeli PM in fact went on an op disguised as a woman....wig and skirt and all.

Soviet era Spetsnaz units had teams of highly trained female operators for subversive work being NATO lines...the French Maquis during WW2 relied on female members to move around and through German lines.

I'm sorry.....but the fact remains that a female assassin - a well trained, capable, intelligent one - would be a far more plausible choice as a protagonist in an Assassin's Creed game and I can't help but think how it'll be an awesome experience.

And personally, I prefer a female silhouette to a male one....its more aesthetically appealing to me...they just look better and it'd be nice change from all the dudes in the franchise. I mean seriously...its a D-fest in the franchise.

silvermercy
03-19-2014, 11:43 AM
I think I agree with most points in this thread.

Except for having an attractive female assassin. I think she should be average-looking like Desmond and Ezio *awaits angry fans' attack* lol Heck I'm a Connor fangirl and I still didn't like him at first.
Using a game mechanic that would be based on a female assassin's looks is stereotypical and cliched. I wouldn't want to see that. Not even Ezio did that. He used his charm mostly, not his looks.

RinoTheBouncer
03-19-2014, 12:19 PM
I donít understand the opposition to sexualizing female protagonists. I mean Lara Croft has always been a sexy game character and she was badass and sheís remembered till today. Same goes for Jill Valentine from Resident Evil and Aya from Parasite Eve. Those are all still loved and remembered and theyíre not just cheap sex symbols. I believe if the story is rich enough and the character development is done in a way that makes you focus more on the story and events than just how sexy she is, then it would be totally cool.

But giving a plain shell of a character and making her look hot and relying on that factor to sell, that I donít agree with.

Anyway, Iíll be totally happy to see the Adam and Eve story being brought up again. Itís been way too long. I hope they donít disappoint us, again with just bits of a story that are left to hardcore explorers and those who read letters and every single file. I do read all files, but Iíd love a story that is presented as an important part of the game, not as an optional objective.

silvermercy
03-19-2014, 12:53 PM
I don’t understand the opposition to sexualizing female protagonists. I mean Lara Croft has always been a sexy game character and she was badass and she’s remembered till today. Same goes for Jill Valentine from Resident Evil and Aya from Parasite Eve. Those are all still loved and remembered and they’re not just cheap sex symbols. I believe if the story is rich enough and the character development is done in a way that makes you focus more on the story and events than just how sexy she is, then it would be totally cool.

I don't understand this way of thinking at all. Even though Lara is still my fave female character ever, I never liked her portrayal. All these female characters also drew immense criticism. Being badass and memorable doesn't excuse it in my book. I never got this excuse to be honest. Because if the vast majority of male characters can kick a$$ without being oversexualised, then why shouldn't female ones???? I'm sorry, but why?
Just look at this:
http://www.gamersguidetolife.com/2012/02/to-clothe-or-not-to-clothe-why-industry.html
The effect such portrayal has on turning female gamers away should be noted. I'm surprised some people can't see the effect it has on this part of the gaming population.

This article sums it up, too: http://www.giantbomb.com/sexualized-women/3015-2362/


Anyway, if they make a female assassin that uses her looks or sex appeal as a new game mechanic, I'm out. I'd rather have an average-looking male character...

subject90
03-19-2014, 12:53 PM
I donít understand the opposition to sexualizing female protagonists. I mean Lara Croft has always been a sexy game character and she was badass and sheís remembered till today. Same goes for Jill Valentine from Resident Evil and Aya from Parasite Eve. Those are all still loved and remembered and theyíre not just cheap sex symbols. I believe if the story is rich enough and the character development is done in a way that makes you focus more on the story and events than just how sexy she is, then it would be totally cool.

But giving a plain shell of a character and making her look hot and relying on that factor to sell, that I donít agree with.

Anyway, Iíll be totally happy to see the Adam and Eve story being brought up again. Itís been way too long. I hope they donít disappoint us, again with just bits of a story that are left to hardcore explorers and those who read letters and every single file. I do read all files, but Iíd love a story that is presented as an important part of the game, not as an optional objective.

This ^^^

ze_topazio
03-19-2014, 12:59 PM
My experience with gamers both in real life and online is that they don't care about the character gender and race as long as the game is good, the idea that female and black characters wouldn't sell is more a of an idea of the so called experts and clueless investors.

subject90
03-19-2014, 01:00 PM
who is Wolfmeister?

Farlander1991
03-19-2014, 01:03 PM
There's a difference between a sexy character and oversexualizing a character that both the developers and gamers need to learn about.

I really dislike oversexualized (and impractical) designs, but a lot of time in these kind of discussions sexy characters are getting tabooed as well, which I think is not the right attitude to approach the problem. Not saying that this is what's happening in the discussion here right now, just noticed a general tendency of where they usually go.

What's really weird to me, is that despite oversexualization frequently met in character design (and, let's be honest, not only female characters are oversexualized, although it certainly happens to them more than to male characters), there's some really weird cultural discomfort regarding human bodies (both female and male). I find that contradicting and strange, to be honest.

shobhit7777777
03-19-2014, 01:22 PM
Even though Lara is still my fave female character ever, I never liked her portrayal. All these female characters also drew immense criticism. Being badass and memorable doesn't excuse it in my book. I never got this excuse to be honest. Because if the vast majority of male characters can kick a$$ without being oversexualised, then why shouldn't female ones????
Just look at this:
http://www.gamersguidetolife.com/2012/02/to-clothe-or-not-to-clothe-why-industry.html
The effect such portrayal has on turning female gamers away should be noted.

This article sums it up, too: http://www.giantbomb.com/sexualized-women/3015-2362/


I think the armour and jiggle physics is ridiculous...and so is the trend towards skimpy dresses...but for argument's sake, can we take at least define sexualization within the context of video game character design and portrayal?

You say that male protags are never sexualized, i.e. wear skimpy clothes....but can't it be argued that oversexualization of characters especially male ones isn't just limited to their clothes?

Majority of the male protags are attractive, have impeccable physiques (which are showcased thanks to the attire) and are extremely capable - would these traits not be considered sexy? Or is it only when you see a shirtless dude like this guy here when oversexualization applies?

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2013/140/a/0/ac3__tokw_screenshot__ratonhnhaketon_by_jakiron-d65x9yw.jpg

What I'm basically trying to say that is the stance you've taken seems to me, a myopic view and is rather black and white

I don't like extremist views (My hatred for AC3 notwithstanding). I don't like bikini clad amazonians going into battle against fully armored opponents but I also don't like the stance - oversexualization is bad.

It needs to be viewed on a case by case basis

Sexualization should always enhance the character's core traits - Catwoman in Arkham City. It can serve a purpose and can stand for more than eye candy. It can be done right. Blind opposition to it makes no sense to me personally

I think at the end of the day its the portrayal that matters regardless of how the character looks and that is what we should be concerned about. The fact that you ignored "badass and memorable" and went straight for their visual design saddens me.

ze_topazio
03-19-2014, 01:38 PM
I don't like extremist views (My hatred for AC3 notwithstanding). I don't like bikini clad amazonians going into battle against fully armored opponents but I also don't like the stance - oversexualization is bad.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/sexy+armor+mods.+i+m+uncertain+about+the+source+sh ould+be_1570f9_4436898.jpg

silvermercy
03-19-2014, 01:40 PM
The fact that you ignored "badass and memorable" and went straight for their visual design saddens me.
Male bodies are not oversexualised as much as female ones, in Western culture at least. Same for the male game characters. There are some rare exception of course, but these are exactly that: exceptions. By pointing out Connor in his traditional Native outfit is like pointing out the occasional Diet Coke ad. (And it's not even close to that). There are not so many of its kind. However, muscular heroes are designed for the power fantasy since, well, forever. They're not sexualised. The unrealistic power fantasy is another topic I think.

Bold: why does it sadden you? I explained why it saddens me personally. Being badass is not enough to make me sit through a game of females in heels, big boobs and provocative outfits and poses. Connor's outfit was never distracting, to me at least, while playing the game.

By the way, I'm not against attractive characters OR blocking sexy characters that serve a purpose from games altogether. Not at all. Example of a character like that would be if her role required to be a spy like Mata Hari.

subject90
03-19-2014, 01:51 PM
when people are talking about sexualslising a character are they talking about the character having a good body? because if so i would not expect anyone who runs and swims non stop , climbs buildings and has the stamina do have a multi opponent sword fight after all that, to be on the chubby side.

if they are talking about the attire worn by the assassin being skimpy and revealing, just no. why would they ? the more flesh shown the more vulnerable you are to cuts and stabs. i doubt an assassin would be that stupid. cleavage perhaps but short shorts and vest tops?? ... no.

other than that the only way they could be "sexualised" is by their attitudes towards the other sex, and so far the only assassin i have known to be a womaniser or be rude in any way is Ezio in his younger years. i don't see why a female assassin should be dirty minded but that's for the devs to decide when creating her personality.

personally i am tired of macho, male protagonists and would welcome a female MP, even if its just for the variety

shobhit7777777
03-19-2014, 02:04 PM
Male bodies are not oversexualised as much as female ones, in Western culture at least. Same for the male game characters. There are some rare exception of course, but these are exactly that: exceptions. By pointing out Connor in his traditional Native outfit is like pointing out the occasional Diet Coke ad. (And it's not even close to that). There are not so many of its kind. However, muscular heroes are designed for the power fantasy since, well, forever. They're not sexualised. The unrealistic power fantasy is another topic I think.

That answers my question - skin showing is sexualization according to you.

Power fantasy isn't dependent on a character's appearance, not entirely - it ties into the aspirational value a player attaches to the character....which is itself born out of the public's perception of what is attractive and what isn't - who would you like to be.

abs, well defined muscles, chiselled jawlines - all part of the attractive male stereotype.....if you think male protags are realistic then get ready to disappointed

However, I do feel that female characters have it far far worse simply because they are usually oversexualized not because it serves the character but because - boobs!



Bold: why does it sadden you? I explained why it saddens me personally. Being badass is not enough to make me sit through a game of females in heels, big boobs and provocative outfits and poses. Connor's outfit was never distracting, to me at least, while playing the game.

It saddens me because you are overlooking substance over their attire....which feels like a kneejerk reaction.



By the way, I'm not against attractive characters OR blocking sexy characters that serve a purpose from games altogether. Not at all. Example of a character like that would be if her role required to be a spy like Mata Hari.

Glad to hear it...because your initial post suggested otherwise:

Except for having an attractive female assassin. I think she should be average-looking like Desmond and Ezio *awaits angry fans' attack* lol Heck I'm a Connor fangirl and I still didn't like him at first.
Using a game mechanic that would be based on a female assassin's looks is stereotypical and cliched. I wouldn't want to see that. Not even Ezio did that. He used his charm mostly, not his looks.

It seemed to me you blindly subscribed to a certain set of principles/opinions because it is the "right" thing to do instead of a rational, thought out, outlook on the matter. I'm glad this isn't the case :)

I-Like-Pie45
03-19-2014, 02:42 PM
what if it turns out Galina is actually a He-She nonsexual

literally basically 1/2 of her body is male and the other 1/2 is female

He-She use the female half of its body to seduce her targets while using the male half to kill them afterwards

that isn't sexist is it and it introduces many new gameplay mechanics while retaining the old

pirate1802
03-19-2014, 03:35 PM
I don’t understand the opposition to sexualizing female protagonists. I mean Lara Croft has always been a sexy game character and she was badass and she’s remembered till today. .

But that she was this super intelligent archaeologist who wears ridiculous hotpants to missions hurts her credibility imo. Because it implies that either she is not as intelligent as she is supposed to be, or the devs are throwing a cheap bone at me. I don't know which one is worse, probably the later. problems which were atleast partially removed by the reboot and now I loove her.

Imo, there is a difference between sexualization and oversexualization. I'm fine with sexualization. Who'd not like to see a sexy character, and frankly, it is everywhere not just games and you cant completely do away with it. Almost every characters, both male and female are sexualized to a different extent. Connor is up there, he'd fit into the category of sexualization. Even the new Lara is. I don't mind it unless its not blatant and over the top (like wearing bikini armour in a sword fighting game, or thigh-exposing cloathes in a game where you fight monsters that transfer zombie vius through biting ooor booty shorts to a mission involving lots of scrapping and shooting :rolleyes:) So there's that. The AC MP characters too, are fine by me. Because I view them not as the actual historical characters, but as avtrs created for mass consumption. No wonder they are sexualized.

Oversexualization though, most of the time doesnt fit the character (hence the OVER) Like old Lara or the Team Ninja games. Don't want that. But still, there are cases where even oversexualization can fit a character and be perfectly logical. Shobhit gave the example of Catwoman. There's another great example: Her.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100225232915/borderlands/images/2/20/Borderlands_2010-02-25_18-25-26-79.png

She is ridiculously oversexualized but it makes complete sense with her character, a seductress who has hundreds of husbands and wives and thinks of sex all the time. And she is a GREAT and colourful character, even if you ignore dat cleavage.

So yes, i think extremes are bad. We shouldnt go like ooooh she shows an inch of skin, sexist!! either but view each case differently. Sometimes oversexualization does fit. But I'd agree that most of the time its not there to fit the character but attract ***** teenagers. And thats a shame because that might put me off an otherwise very interesting character!


when people are talking about sexualslising a character are they talking about the character having a good body? because if so i would not expect anyone who runs and swims non stop , climbs buildings and has the stamina do have a multi opponent sword fight after all that, to be on the chubby side.

if they are talking about the attire worn by the assassin being skimpy and revealing, just no. why would they ? the more flesh shown the more vulnerable you are to cuts and stabs. i doubt an assassin would be that stupid. cleavage perhaps but short shorts and vest tops?? ... no.

That is the difference in my books between sexualization and oversexualization. First I'm perfectly fine with. The second nope.. in most cases.

Farlander1991
03-19-2014, 03:43 PM
I'm fine with sexualization. Who'd not like to see a sexy character

Not to mention that sexualization, in and of itself, is NORMAL. It's a part of our lives. People want to be sexy, people LIKE being sexy, people want to see sexy, and most importantly: sexy doesn't have to be just the 'current standard top model' look, there's lots more to it than that. Sexualization doesn't HAVE to be there, but it doesn't necessarily hurt if it's there.

Oversexualization has 'over' in it for a reason, because it goes overboard - either to the point that it doesn't make sense or just simply is not tasteful.

I-Like-Pie45
03-19-2014, 03:46 PM
a female assassin could also be designed to be as unsexy as possible

for example:

have her be fat
7 feet tall
masculine gorilla hands and feet
forests of armpit, arm, and leg hair quite beautifully rendered by AnvilNextNext
an ungroomed mustache
mocapped and voiced by a Shaquille O'Neal

thats as unsexualized as you can make a female protag

Farlander1991
03-19-2014, 04:03 PM
Also, speaking of sexualization, I think it's actually important. Even other media struggles with it, not just games, though games are somewhat more juvenile right now.

Here's the thing. Human bodies are beautiful. Sex is beautiful. And yet these things, at least in western culture that I'm a part of and am familiar with, are generally speaking tabooed and unaccepted (which is strange considering that violence is more accepted - and I find it really strange when people start posting on these forums, oh is there any sex or nudity in there? Because that's a no-no.... WELL WHAT ABOUT FREAKIN' MURDER?!?!?!?!?! Ahem... anyway, I digress).

And I think that this taboo plays a large role in the existence of over-sexualization. We blame teenagers for the reason over-sexualization exists - it panders to them so they eat it up in big numbers so it's cranked up to max, but what if it exists because generally speaking sexualization is kinda being frowned upon?

The people of those age need it and crave for it because that's what their instincts command them to do, that's what they're trying to figure out, but instead of teaching them about the whole beauty of it all, and balance, we tend to go overboard because that's the way to get noticed.

Now, mind you, I'm not saying "ADD NUDITY AND SEX EVERYWHERE!!!!!ONEONE!!!ONE!!!" I just think that this is a large cultural problem.

And you know, I am personally an introvert. And an introvert raised in western culture (even with parents as awesome as my were which were very open about everything, including sex) can be a dangerous thing - I had to overcome from the inside blocks to even go for a kiss in a cheek - because it didn't feel right. Had overcome things to accept my own body (even though in the 'public eye' I'm considered to be 'normal looking'). And looking back at all these stupid cultural blocks I faced, can't help but think that we're in a loopy catch-22 right now and kinda have to break it.

I'm not sure I'm making my point very clear in this post, because, honestly, I haven't yet constructed a cohesive point in my head myself. But basically, sexualization in and of itself shouldn't be frowned upon. And if we keep doing it right, maybe we'll be able to help to get rid of those pointless taboos that may be, if not THE cause, then at least part of the cause for doing it wrong.

pirate1802
03-19-2014, 04:04 PM
Not to mention that sexualization, in and of itself, is NORMAL. It's a part of our lives. People want to be sexy, people LIKE being sexy, people want to see sexy, and most importantly: sexy doesn't have to be just the 'current standard top model' look, there's lots more to it than that. Sexualization doesn't HAVE to be there, but it doesn't necessarily hurt if it's there.

Exactly! Which is why I said its not something completely done away with even if you want to.


Oversexualization has 'over' in it for a reason, because it goes overboard - either to the point that it doesn't make sense or just simply is not tasteful.

:eek: We think alike!

Hans684
03-19-2014, 04:36 PM
a female assassin could also be designed to be as unsexy as possible

for example:

have her be fat
7 feet tall
masculine gorilla hands and feet
forests of armpit, arm, and leg hair quite beautifully rendered by AnvilNextNext
an ungroomed mustache
mocapped and voiced by a Shaquille O'Neal

thats as unsexualized as you can make a female protag

Yo mama as protagonist.

Perk89
03-19-2014, 04:37 PM
The very fact that the OP even described his proposal as "super awesome sexy Russian woman" supports the idea that this has nothing to do with some fake entertainment equality movement and has more to do with the weird obsession the lonely teenagers of the internet generation have with playing as females.

i hope they never make another game with a female protagonist because I fear the gross things some of you would fantasize about or do your weird 4chan roleplay with

pirate1802
03-19-2014, 04:42 PM
Yo mama as protagonist.

Zing!


The very fact that the OP even described his proposal as "super awesome sexy Russian woman" supports the idea that this has nothing to do with some fake entertainment equality movement and has more to do with the weird obsession the lonely teenagers of the internet generation have with playing as females.

i hope they never make another game with a female protagonist because I fear the gross things some of you would fantasize about or do your weird 4chan roleplay with

facepalm

Templar_Az
03-20-2014, 07:52 PM
In all the AC games where you play as a man you can hire courtesans so I guess in this case the female protaganist can be the courtesan. Thats my suggestion. Makes sense and would be the same as previous games but from a different perspective. Cant call that sexist.

RatonhnhakeFan
03-20-2014, 08:01 PM
a female assassin could also be designed to be as unsexy as possible

for example:

have her be fat
7 feet tall
masculine gorilla hands and feet
forests of armpit, arm, and leg hair quite beautifully rendered by AnvilNextNext
an ungroomed mustache
mocapped and voiced by a Shaquille O'Neal

thats as unsexualized as you can make a female protagOr you can just scan Joan Rivers' face

LoyalACFan
03-20-2014, 08:05 PM
In all the AC games where you play as a man you can hire courtesans so I guess in this case the female protaganist can be the courtesan. Thats my suggestion. Makes sense and would be the same as previous games but from a different perspective. Cant call that sexist.

Or the female protagonist could merely hire a group of Chippendales to distract and amuse 2-10% of the guards.

RatonhnhakeFan
03-20-2014, 08:18 PM
Or the female protagonist could merely hire a group of Chippendales to distract and amuse 2-10% of the guards.

Which would make for more unpredictable gameplay if they literally made random 5% of guards gay. Diversity improving the gameplay :cool:

GunnerGalactico
03-20-2014, 08:27 PM
Or the female protagonist could merely hire a group of Chippendales to distract and amuse 2-10% of the guards.



Which would make for more unpredictable gameplay if they literally made random 5% of guards gay. Diversity improving the gameplay :cool:

You guys are weirdos :confused:

RatonhnhakeFan
03-20-2014, 08:31 PM
You guys are weirdos :confused:Elaborate

GunnerGalactico
03-20-2014, 08:34 PM
Elaborate

Just the ideas that both of you came up with... Chippendales really?.... I know it was a joke :p

Don't worry.. I've got nothing against homosexual people.

Wolfmeister1010
03-20-2014, 08:39 PM
The very fact that the OP even described his proposal as "super awesome sexy Russian woman" supports the idea that this has nothing to do with some fake entertainment equality movement and has more to do with the weird obsession the lonely teenagers of the internet generation have with playing as females.

i hope they never make another game with a female protagonist because I fear the gross things some of you would fantasize about or do your weird 4chan roleplay with

uh.

I AM female and Russian dumb *** LOL

btw I'm back every1

Wolfmeister1010
03-20-2014, 08:45 PM
I think I may need to copy-paste your post and make it my sig

RatonhnhakeFan
03-20-2014, 08:49 PM
Chippendales really?.... Sound silly. Just as hiring courtesans to distract staight guards :p

GunnerGalactico
03-20-2014, 08:52 PM
Sound silly. Just as hiring courtesans to distract staight guards :p

They can distract female guards though ... if they have any in the game :p

LoyalACFan
03-20-2014, 09:03 PM
Which would make for more unpredictable gameplay if they literally made random 5% of guards gay. Diversity improving the gameplay :cool:

Lol, I actually thought about that while replaying the Carnevale sequence where you're forced to distract guards with courtesans to kill time before your target shows up. If even one of the guards hunting him was gay, Ezio would've been screwed :p


You guys are weirdos :confused:

And proud ;)

Wolfmeister1010
03-20-2014, 09:06 PM
Lol, I actually thought about that while replaying the Carnevale sequence where you're forced to distract guards with courtesans to kill time before your target shows up. If even one of the guards hunting him was gay, Ezio would've been screwed :p



Who needs naval when we have dedicated features such as this :p

GunnerGalactico
03-20-2014, 09:09 PM
Lol, I actually thought about that while replaying the Carnevale sequence where you're forced to distract guards with courtesans to kill time before your target shows up. If even one of the guards hunting him was gay, Ezio would've been screwed :p



And proud ;)


I was just joking :cool:

LoyalACFan
03-20-2014, 09:11 PM
I was just joking :cool:

Yeah I know, me too ;)

AliHaider145
03-21-2014, 05:06 AM
Hey brothers is Assassin's Creed 4 Assassin's Creed Black Flag, Than which part is Assassin's Creed 5?

pirate1802
03-21-2014, 05:45 AM
Hey brothers is Assassin's Creed 4 Assassin's Creed Black Flag, Than which part is Assassin's Creed 5?

Must...resist...

RatonhnhakeFan
03-21-2014, 06:53 AM
Hey brothers is Assassin's Creed 4 Assassin's Creed Black Flag, Than which part is Assassin's Creed 5?
The upcoming game, codnamed Unity which will probably release in November 2014

RinoTheBouncer
03-21-2014, 01:25 PM
I don't understand this way of thinking at all. Even though Lara is still my fave female character ever, I never liked her portrayal. All these female characters also drew immense criticism. Being badass and memorable doesn't excuse it in my book. I never got this excuse to be honest. Because if the vast majority of male characters can kick a$$ without being oversexualised, then why shouldn't female ones???? I'm sorry, but why?
Just look at this:
http://www.gamersguidetolife.com/2012/02/to-clothe-or-not-to-clothe-why-industry.html
The effect such portrayal has on turning female gamers away should be noted. I'm surprised some people can't see the effect it has on this part of the gaming population.

This article sums it up, too: http://www.giantbomb.com/sexualized-women/3015-2362/


Anyway, if they make a female assassin that uses her looks or sex appeal as a new game mechanic, I'm out. I'd rather have an average-looking male character...

Well I was never with the idea of not sexualizing male characters. Well us guys have been playing and admiring male characters like Ezio (who were sexualized) and didn’t turn away, so I don’t see why a beautiful and sexy protagonist would make girls turn away. I’m pretty sure that gaming isn’t all about being turned on to the character you’re playing as. Like why does it have to be an average/ugly character with a disappointing sad ending to make a cool game/movie? I don’t understand this logic at all.


This ^^^

Thank you!


I don't understand this way of thinking at all. Even though Lara is still my fave female character ever, I never liked her portrayal. All these female characters also drew immense criticism. Being badass and memorable doesn't excuse it in my book. I never got this excuse to be honest. Because if the vast majority of male characters can kick a$$ without being oversexualised, then why shouldn't female ones???? I'm sorry, but why?
Just look at this:
http://www.gamersguidetolife.com/2012/02/to-clothe-or-not-to-clothe-why-industry.html
The effect such portrayal has on turning female gamers away should be noted. I'm surprised some people can't see the effect it has on this part of the gaming population.

This article sums it up, too: http://www.giantbomb.com/sexualized-women/3015-2362/


Anyway, if they make a female assassin that uses her looks or sex appeal as a new game mechanic, I'm out. I'd rather have an average-looking male character...


This ^^^


But that she was this super intelligent archaeologist who wears ridiculous hotpants to missions hurts her credibility imo. Because it implies that either she is not as intelligent as she is supposed to be, or the devs are throwing a cheap bone at me. I don't know which one is worse, probably the later. problems which were atleast partially removed by the reboot and now I loove her.

Imo, there is a difference between sexualization and oversexualization. I'm fine with sexualization. Who'd not like to see a sexy character, and frankly, it is everywhere not just games and you cant completely do away with it. Almost every characters, both male and female are sexualized to a different extent. Connor is up there, he'd fit into the category of sexualization. Even the new Lara is. I don't mind it unless its not blatant and over the top (like wearing bikini armour in a sword fighting game, or thigh-exposing cloathes in a game where you fight monsters that transfer zombie vius through biting ooor booty shorts to a mission involving lots of scrapping and shooting :rolleyes:) So there's that. The AC MP characters too, are fine by me. Because I view them not as the actual historical characters, but as avtrs created for mass consumption. No wonder they are sexualized.

Oversexualization though, most of the time doesnt fit the character (hence the OVER) Like old Lara or the Team Ninja games. Don't want that. But still, there are cases where even oversexualization can fit a character and be perfectly logical. Shobhit gave the example of Catwoman. There's another great example: Her.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100225232915/borderlands/images/2/20/Borderlands_2010-02-25_18-25-26-79.png

She is ridiculously oversexualized but it makes complete sense with her character, a seductress who has hundreds of husbands and wives and thinks of sex all the time. And she is a GREAT and colourful character, even if you ignore dat cleavage.

So yes, i think extremes are bad. We shouldnt go like ooooh she shows an inch of skin, sexist!! either but view each case differently. Sometimes oversexualization does fit. But I'd agree that most of the time its not there to fit the character but attract ***** teenagers. And thats a shame because that might put me off an otherwise very interesting character!



That is the difference in my books between sexualization and oversexualization. First I'm perfectly fine with. The second nope.. in most cases.

Well, I wouldn’t want a game where an assassin is seen in a bikini the whole time nor one where sex scenes are all over the place. But I’d take a female assassin who is good looking over one that is average, whether it’s male or female. I mean I prefer Ezio over Connor, Edward over Altair, Anne Bonny over Aveline, Lara Croft over Faith Connor (from Mirror’s Edge), Commander Shepard over the guys from GTA.

Those weren’t all necessarily over-sexualized, they were just better looking than others, to me at least.