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View Full Version : Who engineered the p51? Was it a german?



patch_adams
07-01-2004, 07:26 AM
Someone please clear this up for me.

patch_adams
07-01-2004, 07:26 AM
Someone please clear this up for me.

McTriggerhappy
07-01-2004, 07:34 AM
why would a german engineer an american plane? i don't know what you're asking

AWL_Spinner
07-01-2004, 07:37 AM
And this would be a trolling/whine about...

a) The P51
b) American Aircraft
c) German Aircraft
d) The .50 calibre

?

Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

Chuck_Older
07-01-2004, 07:37 AM
Edgar Schmeud was German, and he was cheif designer of the P-51/A-36.

One man did not make the whole airplane. There was a good deal of info used from Curtiss aerodynamic tests and NACA data. Just because Schmued was of German descent, that doesn't make the P-51 a German plane. May I point out that the aircraft was built by North American Aviation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif The aircraft company was not Schmeud Aviation
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The man who founded Buick Motor Carriage Company was David Dunbar Buick. HE was a Scot. Is Buick or General Motors (GM was founded with Buick inc. as the financial base) a Scottish Company? Clearly not. It is an American compnay.
*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

[This message was edited by Chuck_Older on Thu July 01 2004 at 06:46 AM.]

DeBaer.534
07-01-2004, 07:38 AM
theres a rumor it has german roots (pre-war, or something, dont know).
but i strongly doubt it.
(who would have thought that after i turned out to be an evil pro-german in the BOB thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

ImpStarDuece
07-01-2004, 07:44 AM
Please clarify what you mean by 'engineered'.


The P-51 was built by North American Aviation to meet a British request for an advanced fighter. The first airframe was completed within 117 days of the request. A pretty remarkable feet but most people dont know that it was already partially completed as a design and was just really waiting for the right momentum.

The heads of the design team for North America were Edgar Schmued (a pretty German sounding name if you ask me) and Raymond Rice. I think Rice was in overall control though.


So the short answer is no. It was designed by two Americans to a serise of RAF specifications and then made famous by American pilots who flew a plane with a British engine. Simple.

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

"War is just an extension of politics carried out by other means" von Clauswitz.

Zyzbot
07-01-2004, 07:51 AM
"James H. 'Dutch' Kindelberger, president of North American Aviation (NAA), collaborated with his friend and vice-president, J. Leland Atwood to formulate an outline for a fighter project. A project team was formed at North American, made up of such people as Raymond H. Rice, Edgar Schmued, Larry Waite and E. H. Horkey.
In April of 1940, Kindelberger was summoned by the British Air Purchasing Commission and asked to manufacture the Curtiss Hawk 87 (P-40D) under license for the RAF. Kindelberger countered that NAA could do better than that airplane and that they could design a real fighter in the same time that it would take to put the P-40 into production. The British commission felt that they could take Kindelberger at his word and on April 10, 1940 they accepted his proposal on the condition that the first prototype be ready in 120 days. The design was assigned the company project name of Model NA-73.

RAF238thKnight
07-01-2004, 07:59 AM
Listen guys dnt waste your time psoting to Patch he is out there LOL trying to stir poop. All he wants is to draw more attention to respond to this poop. All Amercians are of different decent and we came together as a people. So dont even bother reading his post your wasting your time even responding.

Knight

Zyzbot
07-01-2004, 08:03 AM
Does this mean we shouldn't talk about how some Americans designed the Ju-88!

MEGILE
07-01-2004, 08:08 AM
Someone should record his quotes in a book somewhere, becase Patch never fails to bring out the best 1 liners... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51light.bmp

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 108

3.JG51_BigBear
07-01-2004, 08:12 AM
I don't know what the big deal is. Edgar Schmeud was from Germany, he was also Jewish, which turned out to be a problem for him after Hitler and the Nazi party came into power. Interestingly, Shmeud worked as an engineer for Willy Messerschmitt on the BF109.

Jasko76
07-01-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
Does this mean we shouldn't talk about how some Americans designed the Ju-88!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, clarify this for me if you can, please! I read somewhere a long time a go that a couple of US engineerw were involved in designing the Ju 88, many years before the war, but that's all I know.

As for Schmued/P-51 - yeah, so? Schmued was German, but he worked for an American industry to create an American fighter that kicked a lot of kraut a$$es.

While were're at it, let's not forget Don Berlin's contribution to P-51. He was P-40's daddy and also have a VERY (Berlin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) German sounding name.

Regards,

Jasko
http://users.skynet.be/orbus/Images/husein_kapetan.jpg

Zmaj od Bosne

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-01-2004, 08:27 AM
Something smells...er...poopy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Zyzbot
07-01-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
Does this mean we shouldn't talk about how some Americans designed the Ju-88!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, clarify this for me if you can, please! I read somewhere a long time a go that a couple of US engineerw were involved in designing the Ju 88, many years before the war, but that's all I know.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Here is what I found:

"The Ju-88 design originated in 1935, as part of the Luftwaffe's goal of equipping its growing inventory with a fast medium bomber. The original design was by W.H. Evers and Alfred Gassner, who was an American citizen. Both men had experience in the U.S. aviation industry. The aircraft's first flight was December 21, 1936, and its operational debut was in September 1939, as World War II began. "



"The Junkers Ju 88 first arose from a German Air Ministry requirement for a dedicated high-speed medium bomber. In a calculated move, Junkers temporarily recruited two engineers from America to help design the new aircraft. W.H. Evers and Alfred Grossner applied their considerable expertise in modern aircraft structural design to produce in the Ju 88 a remarkably efficient and adaptable design. The first prototype (D-AQEN) flew on 21 December 1936, and subsequent testing of additional prototypes confirmed its excellent performance. A production order followed and Luftwaffe service testing commenced early in 1939."

horseback
07-01-2004, 09:33 AM
This sort of thread always reminds me of the good ol' days of the Cold War, when you could count on the the Soviet propaganda machine to claim that everything from the bicycle to the refridgerator had been invented by a Russian...

Yes, Schmued was an immigrant from Germany, and a lot of the Mustang's design had roots in his work, but the wings were the result of NACA studies, and the sheer size of the aircraft (place a scale model of the Mustang next to a Bf 109 model of the same scale: the difference is startling) makes it American.

Anyway, almost all of us have foreign roots around here.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

NorrisMcWhirter
07-01-2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>kraut a$$es.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ho hum.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Forum rules are?

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

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VOL_Hans
07-01-2004, 10:05 AM
Yes, it is true that at some angles a P-51 looks German. The planform on the wings just grabs you by your collar and screams "MESSERSCHMITT 109EMIL!" down your throat for example...

It's probably got a few other German influences, but it's mostly an American/British design.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

ploughman
07-01-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> almost all of us have foreign roots around here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We in Britain are often reminded that we're a mongrel race made up of a dozen waves of immigration/invasion gong back to the time the ice sheets retreated etc., and there is no denying this is true. Except for one person. I read about this bloke up the road, he lives near Cheddar Gorge, a local beauty spot and world famous cheese factory. Well,there are these caves and in these caves they found the some neolithic burial sites. They tested the mitochondrial DNA of the ancient bodies and found that this guy was directly related to one of the female deceased, which meant that his family had lived in that spot continuously for over 9,000 years. He confessed that he'd been to Spain once though.

Chuck_Older
07-01-2004, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Yes, it is true that at some angles a P-51 looks German. The planform on the wings just grabs you by your collar and screams "MESSERSCHMITT 109EMIL!" down your throat for example...


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It might be screaming, but I ain't listening...planform is generally similar, but if you take a look at the root, for example, some big differences are evident. Both have squared wingtips, and this did cause some confusion between the two during the war, but I wouldn't say the planform of the wings are fraternal brothers or even first cousins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

BuzzU
07-01-2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Someone please clear this up for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice try noob, but no cigar.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

tttiger
07-01-2004, 11:29 AM
Nice troll, Patch..

You got lots of 'em going for the bait http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You could have found this easily with a Google search.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Franzen
07-01-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
Does this mean we shouldn't talk about how some Americans designed the Ju-88!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, clarify this for me if you can, please! I read somewhere a long time a go that a couple of US engineerw were involved in designing the Ju 88, many years before the war, but that's all I know.

As for Schmued/P-51 - yeah, so? Schmued was German, but he worked for an American industry to create an American fighter that kicked a lot of kraut a$$es.

While were're at it, let's not forget Don Berlin's contribution to P-51. He was P-40's daddy and also have a VERY (Berlin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) German sounding name.

Regards,

Jasko
http://users.skynet.be/orbus/Images/husein_kapetan.jpg

Zmaj od Bosne<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not like you Jasko, 2 notches down on the "respect bar". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Fritz Franzen

patch_adams
07-01-2004, 03:24 PM
Its my favorite plane, I refuse to believe the naysayers. It is USA made top of the line fighter and it achieved air superiority.

KIMURA
07-01-2004, 03:27 PM
How can an a/c looks German, British or American?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Kimura

J30Vader
07-01-2004, 03:54 PM
Who really cares who designed it?
Who built it is more important.

Philipscdrw
07-01-2004, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
How can an a/c looks German, British or American?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Kimura<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, they can. Like the way a shepard can tell his sheep apart or a hip-hop music fan can tell different hip-hop music apart.

PhilipsCDRw
Grand Stenographer of the Boards.

View Cpt. Eric Brown's review of FB here (http://www.aerosociety.com/raes/news/SimReview.pdf) and discuss it here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634)

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.

Chuck_Older
07-01-2004, 04:05 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Its my favorite plane, I refuse to believe the naysayers. It is USA made top of the line fighter and it achieved air superiority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What naysayers?
Who says it's not American?
Who said it wasn't top of the line for the US?
Who said it didn't acheive air superiority?

nobody.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Jasko76
07-07-2004, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:

That's not like you Jasko, 2 notches down on the "respect bar". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for that one, Franzen! I didn't mean to be anti-German, I was just responding in a non-serious way to a non-serious troll!

Seriously though, there are three nations I LOVE - Bosnia, where I was born; Sweden, where I live now; Germany, a country that was first to recognize Bosnia and Croatia as independent from Yugoslavia. Germany also helped in so many ways during the bloody conflict that followed our independence. For that, Germany will have my greatest respect as long as I live! BEsides, I have still living relatives that were part of the Bosnian SS division, although that doesn't makes me a sympathiser of the nazi cause!

I drive German cars because they are German (i e of high quality), I love driving on Autobahns, do that twice every summer...

So in short, I apologize to all the Germans here for using the phraze "kick kraut ***". That was stupid and sub-standard!

Regards,

Jasko
http://users.skynet.be/orbus/Images/husein_kapetan.jpg

Zmaj od Bosne

CaptainGelo
07-07-2004, 03:18 AM
50 cals are wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

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Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

JG77_Tintin
07-07-2004, 03:49 AM
Probably comes from the fact that the first mustang, the NA 73X from the contract of 29 May, 1940, was designed by a team of engineers lead by Raymond Price and Edgar Schmued. Schmued was a former Messerschmitt man, hence some influence in the design of the mustang. The boss of NAA, James "Dutch" Kindelburger had also visited the Heinkel and Messerschmitt factories in Germany, before the USA's entered the war, at the close of 1941. The mustang is a 1940 design, while the Bf109's design goes way back to 1935. A better comparison of USA / German technologies would be between the P36/40 Hawk series with the Bf109. In any case, in designing the mustang, it was a natural and smart thing, to use the best aviation examples of the time. This is what hindsight offers.

KIMURA
07-07-2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:

Oh, they can. Like the way a shepard can tell his sheep apart or a hip-hop music fan can tell different hip-hop music apart.

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better said, I do post a pic of an unknown and and unnamed a/c you'll tell me which compartiot designed it? Hat off. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Kimura

Slush69
07-07-2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:

Oh, they can. Like the way a shepard can tell his sheep apart or a hip-hop music fan can tell different hip-hop music apart.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a hiphop luvin shepherd who's down and diggety with da beats and da sheep, I can tell you that boths things are untrue, my man.

yo/EoE

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

Franzen
07-07-2004, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasko76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:

That's not like you Jasko, 2 notches down on the "respect bar". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for that one, Franzen! I didn't mean to be anti-German, I was just responding in a non-serious way to a non-serious troll!

Seriously though, there are three nations I LOVE - Bosnia, where I was born; Sweden, where I live now; Germany, a country that was first to recognize Bosnia and Croatia as independent from Yugoslavia. Germany also helped in so many ways during the bloody conflict that followed our independence. For that, Germany will have my greatest respect as long as I live! BEsides, I have still living relatives that were part of the Bosnian SS division, although that doesn't makes me a sympathiser of the nazi cause!

I drive German cars because they are German (i e of high quality), I love driving on Autobahns, do that twice every summer...

So in short, I apologize to all the Germans here for using the phraze "kick kraut ***". That was stupid and sub-standard!

Regards,

Jasko
http://users.skynet.be/orbus/Images/husein_kapetan.jpg

Zmaj od Bosne<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, 3 notches up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I always have more respect for those that admit to mistakes. That's more like the Jasko I know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

He he he, we're taking business away from Ivan and Tully. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
07-07-2004, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
How can an a/c looks German, British or American?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Kimura<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy, the German a/c seat is designed to make lederhosen more comfortable and has a nifty beer holder situated within reach of the pilot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

The British fighters have no place to keep food. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And the American fighter looks like a mustang (one of my favorite cars) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif.

Fritz Franzen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Black Sheep
07-07-2004, 07:52 AM
&lt;Inflamatory&gt;

Whilst we're speaking of the P51, two other pointers to bear in mind -

i. Rolls Royce gave it it's beating heart.
ii. The RAF gave it it's name.

&lt;/Inflamatory&gt;

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ilsigs/Nachtjaeger.jpg

Jasko76
07-07-2004, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
He he he, we're taking business away from Ivan and Tully. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad we sorted that out, mate!

As for taking the mod's business away - Badgers*? We don't need no stinking badgers*!

* replace "badgers" with "mods". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

Regards,

Jasko
http://users.skynet.be/orbus/Images/husein_kapetan.jpg

Zmaj od Bosne

horseback
07-07-2004, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moo.Cow:
&lt;Inflamatory&gt;

Whilst we're speaking of the P51, two other pointers to bear in mind -

i. Rolls Royce gave it it's beating heart.
ii. The RAF gave it it's name.

&lt;/Inflamatory&gt;

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad they did name it; the Brits speak English so much better than we do, and their knack for names also gave us the Lightning for the P-38; on the other hand, I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I'm glad that Martlet, Tarpon, and Boston didn't stick (I don't remember what they tried to hang on the B-17, but it was execrable) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

As for the beating heart, aren't we all glad that the Rolls' design installation didn't make it to production? Their Mustang Mk X (?) looked too much like a P-40 and wasn't nearly as fast as the North American designed prototype installation of the Merlin in the XP-51B.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Black Sheep
07-07-2004, 09:24 AM
I was always under the assumption RAF lend lease B17's flew under the name 'Fortress' though I wouldn't be suprised if we gave it some odd name. Certainly, the RAF's nickname 'Shagrat' for Supermarine's Walrus was... odd, shall we say.

As for the manner in which Rolls Royce tried to shoehorn it's powerplant into the Mustang's engine bay... well, I'd conveniently overlooked that part http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ilsigs/Nachtjaeger.jpg

Tooz_69GIAP
07-07-2004, 09:31 AM
Here are some pix of the Me-309

http://baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/69_giap_public/images/misc/309-5.jpg

The Messerschmitt Me 309 V1 (GE+CU) in June 1942 - Lechfeld

http://baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/69_giap_public/images/misc/309-6.jpg
Cutaway of the same aircraft.

Fairly similar to the P-51 I'd say.

These, and loads more can be found on the Luft '46 website (http://www.luft46.com/)

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg
Za Rodinu!

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VF-2_John_Banks
07-07-2004, 09:37 AM
@Jasko.

No trouble! I am a German and i like to kick Kraut a$$es, it's my hobby. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Btw, the P-51 looks as German as the Model T.

@ Kimura.

It's easy to tell if it's a German plane. German planes are butt ugly. They look like bad mofos and the design simply serves the purpose of flying. The Germans never built and never will build such wonder designs (i mean the look here) like the P-51 Mustang, Spitfire or P-38 Lightning. Look at German cars...the BMWs are as ugly and fat as FW-190s. It looks like a brick.

Chuck_Older
07-07-2004, 10:16 AM
John-

I suppose you've never seen a Porsche 550A Spyder?

It makes the comparable contemporary American sportscar look like a limp-wristed Yugo. AND The Porsche is easily twice as attractive.

The Albatross from the first World War is better looking than a Jenny.

Heck, I'd take a '62 Porsche 356 over a '62 Corvette in the looks department.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

DaBallz
07-07-2004, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
This sort of thread always reminds me of the good ol' days of the Cold War<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another lame thread degenerating into name calling
and raceism.

"Yes, Schmued was an immigrant from Germany, and a lot of the Mustang's design had roots in his work, but the wings were the result of NACA studies, and the sheer size of the aircraft"

True, he is from Germany, and he worked for
Messerschmitt. Ok, that's out of the way.

The fantasy story about Curtiss and Donovan Berlin
aiding in the design is 100% BS. NAA and it's
design team deny all Curtiss contrabution.
the plans for the P-46 (A P-40 derivative) were
purchased for NAA by the Brits. That it was
never used is obvious. The only feature on tha
XP-46 that is used is the ventral radiator.
that was no big secret in 1941, most everyone
was testing the idea including YAK.

With a few obvious standards aside (such as both being airplanes)
I see no similarities between the P-40/P-46
and P-51.

By the way, there is always influence from others
when designing a plane, or anything for that matter.
just look at the similaraties between the A6M2
and the Hughes racer.
There is no doubt Schmued lookes at the P-40.
there is no doubt he, Schmued, was more influenced
by the well known Bf-109!
Look at a Bf-109E in contrast to a P-51B.
The layout is very similar!
So similar that gunners in bombers had a hard time
telling them apart.

By the way, for the guys that feel they must
drag race into every post, show me a "pure"
race population. No where in Europe, that's for certain.
Besides, there is one race of humans. take the skin
off the bones and we are all identical.
Aryan, Semite, Black, Asian? All just a bit of flesh and skin color.

Get a life guys.


Da...

Franzen
07-07-2004, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-2_John_Banks:
@Jasko.

No trouble! I am a German and i like to kick Kraut a$$es, it's my hobby. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Btw, the P-51 looks as German as the Model T.

@ Kimura.

It's easy to tell if it's a German plane. German planes are butt ugly. They look like bad mofos and the design simply serves the purpose of flying. The Germans never built and never will build such wonder designs (i mean the look here) like the P-51 Mustang, Spitfire or P-38 Lightning. Look at German cars...the BMWs are as ugly and fat as FW-190s. It looks like a brick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, I knew a "John Banks" in high school. Nice guy. Can't be the same though, he wasn't a troll. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

VF-2_John_Banks
07-07-2004, 11:14 AM
Lol Porsche is ugly too, atleast the "Normall" Carera 9xx series one. Saw one today and thought how the hell can people spend so much money on such an ugly car.

horseback
07-07-2004, 11:53 AM
DaBallz

there are times when I wonder if a person quoting my posts actually read it and understood the tone. I was speaking 'tongue in cheek,' in keeping with most of the other posts in this thread. Since a substantial part of my ethnic background is German (my mother's maiden name was Schultz), and I personally subscribe to the "all persons being created equal" part of the Declaration of Independence, I resent the implication that I am engaging in any form of racism.

I do maintain that each major combatant in WWII subscribed to a different style of fighter, in keeping with their logistics and tactical doctrine. Look at the Italian and Japanese aircraft built using the Daimler-Benz DB 601/605 engines, or the Spitfire vs the Mustang. Same engines, different tactical doctrines, operational needs and design philosophies.

The USAAF decided against producing license-built versions of the Spitfire because they wouldn't stand up as well as domestic products to the rigors of the various climates found in the continental US. The poor range didn't help; most US bases in the West were too far apart for a Spitfire to commute between them.

Given the peculiar needs of the USAAF, do you honestly believe that they would have bought Messerschmitts or Zeros for operational use if the opportunity had presented itself (the FW 190 series might have made it, if they installed a rudder trim)? Or that the IJN or IJAAF would have bought P-38s and Corsairs to use in place of Tonys and Zero-sens?

That was the thrust of my arguement; race doesn't enter consideration, because people are seperated by geography, language and culture, not race.

Now can we go back to having some fun with the subject?

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Dora-9
07-07-2004, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

The man who founded Buick Motor Carriage Company was David Dunbar Buick. HE was a Scot. Is Buick or General Motors (GM was founded with Buick inc. as the financial base) a Scottish Company? Clearly not. It is an American company.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true for the mentioned companies. BUT then .... Chevrolet is a true Swiss Car Manufacturer !

All Chevis belong to us !! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

"Hey .... not ... stop ... stop it NOW !!! ... Argghhh !!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Too late !" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

Whole Switzerland lies under a 1'500 ft thick Chevi cover.

A Chevi anyone ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.i-sol.ch/secret/dora-9_sig.jpg

Franzen
07-07-2004, 01:05 PM
ha ha ha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Jagdgeschwader2
07-07-2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dora-9:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

The man who founded Buick Motor Carriage Company was David Dunbar Buick. HE was a Scot. Is Buick or General Motors (GM was founded with Buick inc. as the financial base) a Scottish Company? Clearly not. It is an American company.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true for the mentioned companies. BUT then .... Chevrolet is a true Swiss Car Manufacturer !

_All Chevis belong to us !!_ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

"Hey .... not ... stop ... stop it NOW !!! ... Argghhh !!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Too late !" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

Whole Switzerland lies under a 1'500 ft thick Chevi cover.

A Chevi anyone ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.i-sol.ch/secret/dora-9_sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
***********************************************

I knew it rode too smoothly to be American!
Now where is that patch?

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/c1500.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jagdgeschwader2s.jpg

A speck of dirt on your windscreen could turn into an enemy fighter in the time it took to look round and back again. A little smear on your goggles might hide the plane that was coming in to kill you.
Derek Robinson
From the book Piece of Cake.

[This message was edited by Jagdgeschwader2 on Wed July 07 2004 at 01:21 PM.]

[This message was edited by Jagdgeschwader2 on Wed July 07 2004 at 01:24 PM.]

Covino
07-07-2004, 03:09 PM
http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/p51gerx.jpg

GASP! :&gt;
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chuck_Older
07-07-2004, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-2_John_Banks:
Lol Porsche is ugly too, atleast the "Normall" Carera 9xx series one. Saw one today and thought how the hell can people spend so much money on such an ugly car.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All this tells me is that you have no notion what a 550A even is, let alone what it looks like. Hint: they don't make them any more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Second hint: James Dean died in one.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Chuck_Older
07-07-2004, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dora-9:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

The man who founded Buick Motor Carriage Company was David Dunbar Buick. HE was a Scot. Is Buick or General Motors (GM was founded with Buick inc. as the financial base) a Scottish Company? Clearly not. It is an American company.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true for the mentioned companies. BUT then .... Chevrolet is a true Swiss Car Manufacturer !

_All Chevis belong to us !!_ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

"Hey .... not ... stop ... stop it NOW !!! ... Argghhh !!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Too late !" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

Whole Switzerland lies under a 1'500 ft thick Chevi cover.

A Chevi anyone ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.i-sol.ch/secret/dora-9_sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's a Chevi? Sounds like a cheap GM gunsight.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

GerritJ9
07-07-2004, 03:24 PM
Gentlemen, if I am not mistaken, Antony Fokker had something to do with the founding of North American........... so that makes the P51 a DUTCH aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Black Sheep
07-07-2004, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Originally posted by GerritJ9:

Gentlemen, if I am not mistaken, Antony Fokker had something to do with the founding of North American........... so that makes the P51 a DUTCH aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suspect you may find the Native Americans were there first, and by quite some considerable time....

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ilsigs/Nachtjaeger.jpg

Chuck_Older
07-07-2004, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GerritJ9:
Gentlemen, if I am not mistaken, Antony Fokker had something to do with the founding of North American........... so that makes the P51 a DUTCH aircraft http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know you're kidding, but that's a weak argument...I mean, he had something to do with it, so it's a company founded by a Dutchman? I guess that means that the USA is actually a English country because Englishmen had something to do with it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif Which makes Jaguar an English car becuase it's an English company bought by Americans who are actually really British http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

DaBallz
07-07-2004, 03:42 PM
Lets see, designed by Germans, powered by British
hated by the defeated AXIS.
I have always looked at the P-51 as being inspired
by the Bf-109. An all laminar flow adaptation
of the Bf-109.
Look at the sillouettes.

Now for a little look at who designed what.
German radial engines built by BMW were either
direct copies of Pratt&Whitney designs
or adaptations of the same.
Seimens built Bristol knockoff's. These designs
were licenced before hostilities, but I doubt
licence fee's were paid in 1943?

During the war licence fee's were waived or
greatly reduced. Packard Motor Company built
RR Merlins, they developed the Merlin after
RR had ceased to do so. Late development
engines, ready for production, developed over
2,200HP. As far as I know no licence fee's
were required till after VJ day.

The Soviets built all manner of radial engines
based on various designs. But the big radials
were based on or directly copied from Wright
R-1820s and R-2600s. Wright got nothing during
the war, as you would expect, and nothing after.
Wright designs were built in the Soviet union
for many years after WWII.

The Japanese also built P&W clones and P&W based
engines, again licenced designs, licence fee's
were paid till a "day of infamy". (not sure of
the cut of date).

Truth is that I am not complaining (Curtiss wright may have).
My point is that it was nearly impossible to
produce an aircraft in 1943 without stepping
on some ones copywright or patent.

Hamilton Standard propellers, Curtiss Electric props
Douglas DC-2/3 aircraft (flown by AXIS and Allies alike).

It is folly to say that Howard Huges radial
engined racer had no influence on the A6M Zero
or Fw-190. The Supermarine racing sea planes
were also an influence(big time).

From those race planes came the fighters of
the BOB and Pearl Harbor.

No one man designs a plane from scratch.
If that is not true then the Wrights would
have designed an SR-71.

The P-51 with it's advanced areodynamics helped
define the end of the age of pistons and props.

Go to RENO to see the last of the high performance
fighters duel in air races. The legacy of YAK, Vought,
Hawker, North American, Grumman and the odd Supermarine
still duel in the skies....racing of course.

The P-51 was designed by a German? YES! But more accurately
it was designed as the combination of 50 years of flight.
Yes, I am including the guy who flew first albeit non powered.
Otto Lilienthal deserves the title as first to fly with
wings like a bird.

Da...

Chuck_Older
07-07-2004, 03:56 PM
Da, I must disagree. The shape of the fuselage may suggest that to you, but it means nothing. That is simply an efficient general shape for an water cooled- engined fighter.

To me, the sillouettes suggest nothing more than both are front water cooled single seat aircraft. I respect the fact that you in general know what's what, but this is a great big pill for me to swallow: that the P-51 was an adaptation of the Bf-109. I wouldn't develop an airframe that old, personally, if I were to copy an aircraft...and don't forget that the Bf-109 itself received a re-design during the war.

The shape of the fuselage may indicate design influence from certain aircraft to you, but that, it seems, is your personal interpretation- just as some say that it was influenced by the P-40...which is logical, actually, since NAA was initially asked to build the P-40, but said they could build a "better aircraft". The turnaround time alone suggests to me (I have some experience with gov't aerospace contracts) that information above and beyond NAA's store of knowledge was tapped- even if it was to only find out what didn't work. Logically, this info came from Curtiss, and could even have been prompted by the US gov't. I will have to read my books on the A-36/P-51 again to be more specific.
I have been an admirer of WWII aircraft and an amatuer military historian (son of an History and Civics teacher) since I was about 5 years old, which was 27 years ago. I am not saying that I have the market cornered on wisdom, experience, or perception, but if the P-51/A-36 was inspired by the Bf-109 in any way but the most cursory, I will be surprised indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


~edit: typo

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

DaBallz
07-07-2004, 04:23 PM
Structurally the P-51 was different than
any fighter of the day, more like a DC3 internally.

But the similarity of the outlines
to a Bf-109E is uncanny, no?

The P-51 was hardly designed in 120 days.
Like the P-80 at Lockheed, they were playing
with the design for a couple of years. The
British purchase was their chance to build the dream.
NAA had extensive experiance building trainers
such as the AT-6 and the B-25 bomber.
They had also built the "NA50/P-64" Though a
later designation it first flew in 1939.

By the way, there was a fighter version of the
AT-6. The Commonwealth Boomerang. It was not
a bad fighter, but a bit slow.

Da...

arcadeace
07-07-2004, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Heck, I'd take a '62 Porsche 356 over a '62 Corvette in the looks department.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How bout the 57 Corvette? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/222_1089241175_62porsche.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/222_1089241094_57-white.jpg

WTE_Galway
07-07-2004, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
By the way, there was a fighter version of the
AT-6. The Commonwealth Boomerang. It was not
a bad fighter, but a bit slow.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The CAC boomerang was a typical early war design very manoouverable but with an airframe that could not handle an upgraded powerplant.

There was a prototype CAC fighter that actually outperformed the mustang but it never became operational .. like a lot of late war prop designs it was just too late, jets were the way of the future. There is stuff here:

http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/raaf2/html/body_ca_15.htm

DaBallz
07-07-2004, 06:16 PM
Ahhh, the Harley Earl masterpiece, the Corvette.
I remember that Porsche by it's local knickname.
We referred to it as "The Elephant Turd".

Porsches were great cars, but rarely attractive.

Da...

Jasko76
07-08-2004, 01:51 AM
DaBallz

I suggest you read spme of late Jeff Ethel's stuff before you dismiss Donovan Berlin's involvement in P-51's creation. Ethel made a very thorough study in the '70s and killed many myths about P-51, but clearly showing just how much Curtiss/Berlin were involved into P-51...

Regards,

Jasko
http://users.skynet.be/orbus/Images/husein_kapetan.jpg

Zmaj od Bosne

Franzen
07-08-2004, 02:00 AM
This thread is a barber's nightmare. How many hairs are you guyz gonna split? Warbird evolution was and is a human venture, not a national one. To talk about which plane was modelled after another by which nation seems somewhat silly to me. You don't have to lose much vision to realize they all look very similar with acception to a very few.

As another poster wrote, no one ever designed a warbird from scratch. I think this thread is more about personal biases. Nothing too logical there. I always thought it was foolish to argue opinions.

Just because a plane may have been designed by someone with a German background doesn't mean it was design by the Germans. If this was the case then anything ever invented in North America is not American, Canadian, or Mexican. Even Michael Moore wouldn't see anything in this one.

We should express opinions, not debate them.

And in my honest opinions, it should be everyone's responsibility to strafe Trolls. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

C'mon guyz, Geeeeez!

Fritz Franzen

DaBallz
07-08-2004, 06:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jasko76:
DaBallz

I suggest you read spme of late Jeff Ethel's stuff before you dismiss Donovan Berlin's involvement in P-51's creation. Ethel made a very thorough study in the '70s and killed many myths about P-51, but clearly showing just how much Curtiss/Berlin were involved into P-51...

Regards,

Jasko
I have read Jeff Ethels articles for years, I remain unconvinced.
I tend to believe the guys at NAA.
They rebuked the story as nonsense.

In my opinion Donovan Berlin is over rated.
He designed a second rate fighter (P-36/P-40)and
a few fiascos (P-46,P-60,P-75,etc) and gets
labeled a genius. Go figure.

By the way, what became of Curtiss aircraft
company after WWII?
After they failed to produce an effective
combat plane (failed to produce something airworthy!)
North American bought out what was left.

Turnabout is fair play.

Da...

Chuck_Older
07-08-2004, 07:34 AM
Nice 356


Anyone have a pic of a 550 or a 550A?

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

JRJacobs
07-15-2004, 03:13 PM
I HATE flogging a dead horse and this IS NOT a troll but i find life is funny sometimes.... after successfully ignoring this post i read the following...

from WarbirdTech Series volume 5 page 26-28

"...The problem in both cases was laid to a resmblance between the Mustang and Germany's Messerschmidt Me-109, especially when seen in silhouette or illuminated in a way that made markings difficult to register.
From this casual similarity in apperance between the two antagonists, according to a wartime dispatch, rumors started in England and flowed back to the United Sates that the Mustang was designed by a pair of German refugees who formerly were designers for Willy Messerschmitt. North American Aviation Company officials took steps to deny this legend of imitation in the creation of the Mustang. The dispatch took pains to explain "ex-Germans" on the NAA's design team, saying that North American Aviation said there were never any ex-Messerschmidt designers working on the Mustang design. Some ex-Germans working for North American all hailed from the pre-Messerschmidt era of aviation, the release noted. The dispatch said some engineers who came to the United States with Anthony Fokker after World War One remained in the Fokker organization as it merged into General Aviation and later into NAA. Ed Schmued, chief of North American designers, was described as an ex-Austrian who served as an officer in the Austrian Air Force in World War One. An American citizen, Schmued, along with project engineer Ken Bowen, who became assistant factory manager of North American's Dallas, Texas plant, were pivotal in the design of the Mustang. Bowen's back ground was listed as a former British citizen who served in the RAF."

this was ascribed to... Obert Ruark, NEA Service Washinton Correspondent dispatch (untitled), Sept. 9, 1942

"if you're a story teller and someone listens while you tell that story you're an artist..."
"If you're a story teller and no-one is listening while you tell that story you're schizophrenic..."
"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."
-- Robert E. Lee
www.virtualjake.com (http://www.virtualjake.com)
Virtual Movie Forum at http://www.blacksheepwebdesign.net/VirtualWarCinema/

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