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View Full Version : Real or not? ZOOMS



TheGozr
04-13-2004, 09:31 AM
I'm surprise no one complained about the guns views..

Do you think those ww2 air planes had Zooms 100x times in to their Guns views?

Is it possible to desativate them on servers locking the clients views.

and some are complaining about speed bar? hum..

I would like your opinion. thx

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg <--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

TheGozr
04-13-2004, 09:31 AM
I'm surprise no one complained about the guns views..

Do you think those ww2 air planes had Zooms 100x times in to their Guns views?

Is it possible to desativate them on servers locking the clients views.

and some are complaining about speed bar? hum..

I would like your opinion. thx

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

yarbles67
04-13-2004, 09:39 AM
a necessary compromise considering the FB has a serious flaw that causes objects to magically vanish and then reappear based on distact to object. I've never played another sim where this phenomenon occurs. If they would fix this cloaking bug, then I would probably do away with the zoom. So, real pilots didn't have a zoom feature but then again they weren't waging war via pc game with fualty code via a crt.

michapma
04-13-2004, 10:02 AM
The "zoom" view is the normal proportion at which a real pilot would see things. If you are using a given dot-per-inch on your monitor and sitting a given distance from your monitor, you need to use the fully zoomed in field-of-view setting in order to see an aircraft the size it would actually appear. For instance, a Bf-109 at 500 meters appears so large under those conditions (dpi, your distance to screen and zoomed in), and would also appear that large in real life.

The "zoomed out" views (wider field of view) are a compromise based on the size of the screen. This is like getting peripheral vision for the pilot. Since the screen size doesn't change, the objects necessarily seem smaller when you zoom out.

So think of the zoomed out view as compensating for peripheral vision. Or, think of it as cheating if you like. Zoomed in view is the most realistic view in terms of apparent sizes.

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Cossack_UA
04-13-2004, 10:19 AM
michapma is correct, ecxept the zoomed in position is equvalent of a real world pilot actually leaning closer to the gun sight (Del button). End button is a normal pilot's position. Page Down button is unrealistic wide FOV that's given to compensate for two dimention handicap of using computer monitors.

TheGozr
04-13-2004, 10:24 AM
michapma i do not agree it doesn't appear that big in real, that far.

The maxzoom is too strong.. but certainly fun for the game.
To play on the sceen is almost like having only one eye almost same field of view.

would be nice to have the gun views bigger as you aproch your head to it but not the background as it does.
So where are the full switched pilots?

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

TheGozr
04-13-2004, 10:26 AM
The wide view is on of the most correct with the normal view.

it help since we can't move the head side to side like you Must and mostly do in real fighters planes.

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

TheGozr
04-13-2004, 10:28 AM
like i tried to say before it would be so nice if the game could with the help of an hat or track ir to sens the movement of the head side to side.
Foward and back... no zoom at all

The zoom is what you see on the fighting movies effect but nha! nha ! no real at all
ZOOM = PAdlock
BAN it! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

SeaFireLIV
04-13-2004, 10:38 AM
Michapma is right, but it sounds like you just want to argue rather than listen to the whys of it.

TheGozr
04-13-2004, 10:47 AM
no i don't http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but i flew many times

but i anderstand the size ratio and both of us are right to a sens i would say.

what would be the best to add on this sim.?

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

BlitzPig_DDT
04-13-2004, 10:52 AM
The thing that has long irked me to no end is that, the zoomed view is the most accurate, but the problem is that your inputs are also magnified when in zoomed view. I really wish we could have just 1 level of input "magnification". The same stick travel in zoom view moves the cross hairs further away from the target than happens in a wider view. And it's not just an impression based on seeing more detail of the movement.

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Tully__
04-13-2004, 10:55 AM
http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/zoomview.jpg

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Aaron_GT
04-13-2004, 10:57 AM
"michapma i do not agree it doesn't appear that big in real, that far."

Do the trigonometry, then come back!

I can't remember the exact angles which the
zooms represent, but a 17 inch monitor at
arms length (the typical size and viewing
distance) presents the same angle as the angle
of view in the most zoomed in view.

Until we all have viewing goggles (fixed
distance to the screen for everyone) and
peripheral vision, then the wide view compromise
is required.

TheGozr
04-13-2004, 11:06 AM
The wide view is good yes but look at the background of the max zoom.. no sorry

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

adlabs6
04-13-2004, 11:45 AM
Beyond the point of increased magification, just think of the increased resolution. Zoomed out, your total vision resolution is abysmal. At max zoom, the detail level is still VERY far below reality, but it's closer.

Unfortunately, we still live in the era of "low" resolution screens, mainly maxing at 1600x1200 in most cases. I'd imagine this would have to be tripled (4800x3600 native resolution on a 25" screen) to provide resonable detail without "zooming".

I think that zooming is essential in FB, and ESPECIALLY at full real, where your primary tools for target aquisition and identification are your eyes.

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clint-ruin
04-13-2004, 12:27 PM
Please just look at Tullys post.

"Real world" vision would result in the 30 degree FOV object size appearing over a 180 degrees of vision area. Not something that is all that easy to do without shipping FB with several grands worth of pro engineering/display style gear.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Luftkillier
04-13-2004, 12:58 PM
LOL! I love this place. Ask a question and here come the charts and graphs. The question is are the views we see on the computer screen real of not. The even better question is for the elitist full difficulty bunch and why none questioned the "realism" of the multi-zoom views we have. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh but they are now. Some are suggesting locking it so there is no zoom, or the host selects the "difficulty" setting on the zoom. What a riot. Like everything else in this fantastic sim, its not a question of realism as much as difficulty. Have a good day.

clint-ruin
04-13-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftkillier:
LOL! I love this place. Ask a question and here come the charts and graphs. The question is are the views we see on the computer screen real of not. The even better question is for the elitist full difficulty bunch and why none questioned the "realism" of the multi-zoom views we have. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi luftkillier,

Could you please tell us how we could see 90 or 180 degrees of vision with realistic comparative object size on a computer monitor?

You may use charts and graphs if you wish.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

PF_Talus
04-13-2004, 01:20 PM
Don't take away the zoom view-I need it to read some of the gauges!


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/Talus/Il-2_001.jpg

VW-IceFire
04-13-2004, 01:25 PM
Full real does not exist till I can smell the oil of the engine while I walk upto the plane in VR gear. That'll be full real. Till that happens there are necessary compromises...there are arguments over them but consider how well you can see things that are really far away while sitting in a car and you'll suddenly realize how limited your 17in computer monitor at 1024x768 pixels is both in terms of clarity of detail at distance as well as actually being able to pick out an object.

Where I live there is an airport maybe 30 mins drive. You can, on a good day, see a 737 (albeit a bigger plane than a WWII fighter but not much more than your average medium bomber) in a low altitude landing pattern from the front of my house. Its a bit more than a spec but consider that your eye sees specs with much greater resolution than a paltry computer monitor.

Sorry I wouldn't want anything changed with the view system. It works as best it can and it frankly doesn't show enough compaired to what a real human eye can...but thats the limitations of a computer simulation as accurate as this one. Kudos to the developers for implementing this in the first place.

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Tully__
04-14-2004, 05:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftkillier:
LOL! I love this place. Ask a question and here come the charts and graphs. The question is are the views we see on the computer screen real of not. The even better question is for the elitist full difficulty bunch and why none questioned the "realism" of the multi-zoom views we have. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh but they are now. Some are suggesting locking it so there is no zoom, or the host selects the "difficulty" setting on the zoom. What a riot. Like everything else in this fantastic sim, its not a question of realism as much as difficulty. Have a good day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can assure you, this is not a new discussion. The file creation date on the .jpg I posted above is Feb 2003, and it was an old discussion then... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Bearcat99
04-14-2004, 10:24 AM
If you want to get an idea of what Mike is talking about go to zoom view and get close to the ground and look around..... granted it will look like you are looking through a box but the scale is close to reality. When you zoom in try to imagineif you can the reat of thre plane around your monitor and desk and you will get an idea of the correctness of the scale.

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TheGozr
04-14-2004, 11:42 AM
Yes your are actually right.

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/pixplane/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

[This message was edited by TheGozr on Wed April 14 2004 at 10:54 AM.]

HayateKid
04-14-2004, 11:59 AM
Very interesting graph Tully. What this tells me is that to simulate actual size when using the wide view, I could project the image into a wall. Hmmm, this gives me more incentive to go ahead with that projector purchase I was planning.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

LilHorse
04-14-2004, 03:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
Very interesting graph Tully. What this tells me is that to simulate actual size when using the wide view, I could project the image into a wall. Hmmm, this gives me more incentive to go ahead with that projector purchase I was planning.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's actually a very interesting idea. Project the wide view nice and big. Of course, you'd need a pretty good sized blank wall in a very dark room.

michapma
04-14-2004, 03:21 PM
The problem with the projection idea is that you are just getting a bigger image further away, and there is no additional information in the image... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-14-2004, 06:25 PM
True, no more information, but, things would still look their proper size, even in wide view, just with less detail. Would make aiming easier I think.

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JG14_Josf
04-14-2004, 08:43 PM
I like to think of the angle view change feature to be similar to depth focus and concentration.

Looking at something far away with concentrated effort in order to more clearly see fine detail tends to cause a mental tunnel vision where peripheral vision is ignored.

It is also neccesary to focus for depth in real life whereas the computer is always in focus for depth. In IL2 there is a need to change viewing angle in order to see objects in much the same manner as distance focus.

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So if the question is:
Zooms, real or not?

I say; Not Real, but a real good simulation.

TheGozr
04-14-2004, 08:48 PM
It's definitly to debate..

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

chris455
04-14-2004, 10:02 PM
But almost all gunsights have a leather or rubber pad for the pilot to rest his face/cheek on.
Is this view not realistic?

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JV44Rall
04-14-2004, 10:04 PM
I think somewhere between middle and zoom view is closest to RL on my monitor (19" running 1280x960).

The San Diego Air & Space Museum has a dashboard and instrument display from a 109G in a display you can almost touch. I was surprised to see the dashboard was very small (about 12-14 inches wide). IIRC it was bigger than normal view in IL2, but smaller than zoom view.

If the other proportions in the game are correct, and imho they appear to be, zoom view isn't much of a magnification over RL.

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SergeVE
04-15-2004, 03:49 PM
If you really want to know how much zoom is "real" , this is how to check it , IMHO .

Step 1 - In the real world .
============================
In the real world , imagine an object 9,9 m wide ( for example the span of a BF109 E4 ) , and
place it at a distance of 200 m.
How large would this object appear , if we would "measure" it , holding a ruler in front of you ,
arm streched , and the distance between your eyes and the ruler is, say 70 cm .
( This 70 cm corresponds to the viewing distance to the PCscreen )
How large would this object appear on our ruler ?


this is the calculation ( basic mathematics ):

200 m / 9,9 m = 0,7 m / Size_at_70_cm

Size_at_70_cm = ( 0,7 m x 9,9 m ) / 200 m
= 0,03465 m
= approx. 3,5 cm

So , In the real world the object would "measure" 3,5 cm wide , on the ruler held in your hand at 70 cm to your eyes .



Step 2 - in the "virtual" world .
=================================
in the "virtual" world , on our computer screen , set at 70 cm before our eyes , how much
do we have to zoom in/out to get the same size ( 3,5 cm ) on the screen surface ?


To check this we have to MAKE AN IDENTICAL SET-UP in the "virtual" world .
Make a simple mission in Full mission builder :
First put a BF109 E4 ( our object of 9,9 m wide ) on the runway of an airfield .
Then , put YOUR aircraft on the runway , at a distance of 200 m to this Bf109 .
( take an aircraft with a nose-wheel , otherwise you won't be able to see the BF109 on the runway )

Run the mission .
Put a ruler on your computer-screen , and zoom in/out until the BF109 at 200 m in front of you is also 3,5 cm .

Voila !

That's the amount of zoom needed to get equal size objects in the "virtual" world.

Kind regards,

Serge V. E.

http://users.pandora.be/virtualserge/Sig.jpg

Elite_Gizz
04-15-2004, 05:02 PM
I think we get fooled in thinking its powerfull because the FOV is smaller if we all had 49" monitors and we could see all the cockpit at gunsite zoom i think it would be prety damn close.

but what ever the answer its needed in a sim and even more so here in FR imo

Best Regards

Gizz
"CO" =Elite=

plumps_
04-15-2004, 11:01 PM
Even if the aircraft size is almost correct when the view is fully zoomed in, visibility is still much worse than in real life. The human eye is able to discern much more detail than a computer screen displays. That's why we would need even better magnification to get visibility as good as a pilot has in real life.

This is how aircraft look in FB from 2 km distance through the gunsight view:

http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/zzz-forum-dots4.jpg

While the dimensions may be roughly correct, the spots on the screen don't look like the real aircraft.

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yarbles67
04-16-2004, 06:54 AM
I don't understand why there's even a debate. when I'm driving around in my car, I can clearly see planes miles away while in Il2s messed up system, a plane 1 km away will magically vanish and then reappear as I increase FOV. Something ain't right but it's always been that way with this game. I've just grown used to it. All this fancy talk is over my head so I just have to base my opinion on experience and common sense. Zoom is a necessary crutch to compensate for something this is obviously broken in il2fb.

michapma
04-16-2004, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yarbles67:
Zoom is a necessary crutch to compensate for something this is obviously broken in il2fb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make that "Zoom is a necessary crutch to compensate for an inherent limitation of graphics technology (affordable monitors and graphics systems)" and you've got the gist of the thread. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Dnmy
04-16-2004, 10:58 AM
Using zoom has got to be one of the most unrealistic features in this game.

No human being can vary his field of view. No human being will lose his peripheral vision if he focuses on something.

Zoom is a crutch for sure. Less of a simulation than padlock or icons are.

--------------------------------

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LilHorse
04-16-2004, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Using zoom has got to be one of the most unrealistic features in this game.

No human being can vary his field of view. No human being will lose his peripheral vision if he focuses on something.

Zoom is a crutch for sure. Less of a simulation than padlock or icons are.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say this (your last comment)? Did you not read any of the preceding thread and just jumped in to reply? Allow me to recap for your convenience:

A) The zoomed in view coresponds to the actual dimentions of the gunsight in RL. Therefore, what you see through it is as close an approximation to what you would see in RL as the computer can render. That is, it is as close to representing a/c at distances as you can get given the computer's limitations if you sat the same distance from the gunsight as you would in the actual cockpit.

The problem is that instead of seeing the rest of your canopy and cockpit around the gunsight what you see is the rest of the room that your monitor is in. Therefore:

B) To make up for the inherent limitations of the computer's graphics and the size of the screen, you are provided with several fields of view .

So you think that somehow that is less realistic than having big honkin' neon signs hanging over everybody's heads?

Red_Russian13
04-16-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:

The maxzoom is too strong.. but certainly fun for the game.
To play on the sceen is almost like having only one eye almost same field of view.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right. It's certainly fun for the GAME. Let's not forget that it is a game and some people may like this feature...whether it's "real" or not.

But I agree with michapma, his argument seems logical and reasonable. Besides, I like "zoom" because I'm a horrible shot and sometimes I can't read the gauges otherwise.

Red Russian

yarbles67
04-16-2004, 12:16 PM
The only reason I say something is broken is because in other flight sims, contacts (especially air contacts) just don't vanish once acquired. For some reason in Il2, I can lock on an air contact and not even touch the FOV but all of a sudden, contact vanishes only to re-appear. If I toggle to zoom mode and tweak FOV as contact moves, I can easily track the contact. I shouldn't have to do this and I has nothing to do with a limitation of the technology. I still play CFS2 and EAW oc occasion and this quirky behavior is not there. I can leave the view static and maintain a clear visual.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yarbles67:
I don't understand why there's even a debate. when I'm driving around in my car, I can clearly see planes miles away while in Il2s messed up system, a plane 1 km away will magically vanish and then reappear as I increase FOV. Something ain't right but it's always been that way with this game. I've just grown used to it. All this fancy talk is over my head so I just have to base my opinion on experience and common sense. Zoom is a necessary crutch to compensate for something this is obviously broken in il2fb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LilHorse
04-16-2004, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yarbles67:
The only reason I say something is broken is because in other flight sims, contacts (especially air contacts) just don't vanish once acquired. For some reason in Il2, I can lock on an air contact and not even touch the FOV but all of a sudden, contact vanishes only to re-appear. If I toggle to zoom mode and tweak FOV as contact moves, I can easily track the contact. I shouldn't have to do this and I has nothing to do with a limitation of the technology. I still play CFS2 and EAW oc occasion and this quirky behavior is not there. I can leave the view static and maintain a clear visual.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, yarbles, you're right about this. I hadn't thought about it before, but now that I do, I don't recall the "disappearing plane" thing happening in either of the first two CFS games. I wonder if it's a function of how much FB is trying to render on lower end systems. My rig, by today's standards, is probably on the lower end of the scale (1GHz PIII, 512 ram, 32bit vid card) and so I have to scale the graphics for the game accordingly so as not to be trying to fly in a slide show. So, I wonder if there is an "intermediate" distance that my computer is just not able to handle. I'm curious as to the specs of your computer and whether or not this same thing happens on high end set ups with the graphics set to highest?

hos8367
04-16-2004, 01:08 PM
Its not just flight sims, every video game needs zoom. I totally agree that zoom is just there to simulate the brains ability to focus on a small fraction of the almost 180 degree peripheral vision we have. You can see 180 degrees, but focus on just a few degrees. The limitation of having a computer monitor that is maybe 20-30 degrees of your vision (depending on size and how close you are to it) neccitates zoom.

tttiger
04-16-2004, 01:14 PM
First, Tully is right (as usual). This topic has been hashed over many times. I know many of you weren't here when it was but it isn't as though GOZR has made a unique discovery.

"Views" have been the topic of endless debate in every forum in every sim I've flown. So, what's new? Nothing...

As to alleged distortion in various views, here's how it is:

Okay, are any of you photographers? I mean real photographers using single lens reflex cameras with zoom lenses or lenses of different focal lengths? If so, you will already know this. If all you use is a point-and-shoot Digital Brownie, you probably don't.

If you use a "normal lens," roughly 55mm focal length, objects in the foreground are sized pretty much in the relationship you see with the naked eye.

If you use a long (telephoto, let's say 105mm focal length or more), the optics create an illusion that the things in the background are much LARGER than the things in the foreground compared to a normal view.

If you use a wide angle lens(28mm or less), exactly the opposite effect result. Objects in the background look much SMALLER than objects in the foreground when compared to the normal view.

The computer is simulating lenses of various focal lengths and doing it quite accurately. I recognized that the first time I used it and, since I'm used to using that feature in photography, said, "Ooh, that's very realistic."

Why it gives anyone heartburn is a total mystery to me.

The wide angle view is to try to make up for our lack of peripheral vision. The zoom view makes up for the fact that many objects (big objects like bridges for example) don't render at a long distance even though your eye would pick them out in real life. Use the zoom and you will see them.

This forum is drifting into "Summer Rerun Season" like TV. Could someone think up some new and interesting whi..err..topics please? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

Aloha,

ttt

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Fri April 16 2004 at 12:23 PM.]

Snoop_Baron
04-16-2004, 03:10 PM
Yes the whole disappearing dot thing can be a royal pain to say the least! I noticed that when I lowered my resolution down to 1024x768 (from my previous higher res) that the dots didn't dissapear as much and where much easier to see. I also think that some of the graphic card settings influence the frequency of this happening and the visiblity of dots. As there is a significant visibility difference between my laptop and desktop and I think some of it is due to graphic settings. You may also want to try different graphic configurations I think maybe things like Antialiasing has an effect.

s!

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Snoop_Baron
04-16-2004, 03:14 PM
Yeah this discussion is not new we at all. I definetly believe that we need the different Fields-Off-View until large or wrap around computer screens become the norm.

s!

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609IAP_Recon
04-16-2004, 03:25 PM
So, what would happen if we increased the size ratio of the aircraft. Isn't it like 32:1 right now.

This would make the aircraft and objects all be larger

Salute!

JG50_Recon

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Dnmy
04-16-2004, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
How can you say this (your last comment)? Did you not read any of the preceding thread and just jumped in to reply? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes ofcourse i read and understood them also. I've seen these arguments in favour of zoom before. But they're just no good arguments for me.

I mean if realism is the goal, then because supposedly zoom is the most realistic view, everybody should be flying in zoom view ALL the time. But we don't, do we? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In fact i fly in zoomed out view 99% of the time. The most "unrealistic view" with the least details.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's a matter of priority for me. I'd rather see a lot in one view then just one thing in zoom view. SA rather than target fixation in my case.

In real life we can't even vary our field of view if we wanted. We don't lose our peripheral vision no matter what. (i.e. unless we'd blackout).

So for me it's nothing but an unrealistic crutch that is needed to ID something. We shouldn't lose our field of view in that way with zoom, just to ID something that should be visible anyway.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

plumps_
04-16-2004, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In real life we can't even vary our field of view if we wanted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We can. Seeing is not only a matter of optics but depends on how your brain processes the information it gets from the eyes. It's a matter of concentration.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I mean if realism is the goal, then because supposedly zoom is the most realistic view, everybody should be flying in zoom view ALL the time. But we don't, do we?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is no such thing as 'the one most realistic view'. The real strength of the human eye is its ability to adapt. It has great peripheral vision (which allows us to perceive movement, but no detail) and is able to concentrate on a tiny detail just a second later.

That's why I have mapped the views to my joystick's weapons buttons 2-4. To me constantly switching between the views is the most realistic way of seeing in this sim.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We shouldn't lose our field of view in that way with zoom, just to ID something that should be visible anyway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, but that's simply a restriction we have to live with.

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Dnmy
04-16-2004, 08:38 PM
Explain pls how to physically restrict my field of view.

I agree that there is no such thing as the most realistic view, but that's what you often read when players talk about zoom view.

To you the most realistic way is switching between views. But to me, the most realistic way would be to not have to switch between varying field of views at all. Because that's what happens in real life.

Using zoom is not a restriction that we have to live with perse. Like i said, i play 99% of the time in wide view. Plus there's always the option of carefully configured icons that could allow the player to do away with zoom view alltogether.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Tully__
04-16-2004, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Using zoom has got to be one of the most unrealistic features in this game.

No human being can vary his field of view. No human being will lose his peripheral vision if he focuses on something.

Zoom is a crutch for sure. Less of a simulation than padlock or icons are.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you say this (your last comment)? Did you not read any of the preceding thread and just jumped in to reply? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DNMY doesn't need to read the whole thread, there's no new opinions in it (though there are some new people in it) and he's been prime player in this debate since the first time I ever saw it on these forums, and that is quite some time.

I might add that to the best of my recollection, at least he's consistent in his views on the topic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Tully__
04-16-2004, 10:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
Explain pls how to physically restrict my field of view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The eye by itself doesn't restrict it's field of view, but the eye/brain unit uses a prioritisation algorithm to decide what part of the incoming information will recieve the most attention. I cases where the view is concentrating on a particular object, the effect is usually (depending a bit in the individual viewer) a perceived loss of peripheral vision.

I see you view on this DNMY, you're arguing that in the real world, a person concentrating on a specific object in this manner can still have his/her attention diverted by movement in the peripheral field. By having and using Zoom view, you lose that.

On the other hand, the additional detail and information that can be gained in the real world in that object focused concentration is not nearly as well modelled in Wide or Normal as it is in Zoom view.

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Dnmy
04-17-2004, 12:52 AM
There you go.

Perceived loss is quite something different than actual loss of peripheral vision.

But what we have here in FB/AEP is not even a simulated "perceived" loss of peripheral vision.

It's more of a sniper rifle scope vision, like in first person shooter games. That kind of vision is not out of place in those kind of games. But it's rather misplaced in aircombat sims where peripheral vision is vital.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Tully__
04-17-2004, 02:09 AM
Dnmy, you know you'll never get me to agree that it shouldn't be there, but I acknowledge your right to dislike using it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Dnmy
04-17-2004, 09:27 AM
I'm not saying it shouldn't be there. More options is better.

But as a feature i find it one of the most unrealistic ones. I believe that was what the discussion was about.

It's unrealistic because gunsight zoom is something for a first person shooter/sniper game. Not for an aircombat game where SA is king. And least of all to ID something we should be able to see anyway.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

plumps_
04-17-2004, 10:22 AM
IMO the wide view is even more unrealistic than the zoomed-in view.

It concentrates 70 virtual degrees in 30 degrees of our real field of view. It's much easier to scan 30? than 70?. The more so as the cone cells that allow you to recognize objects are concentrated to the center of the retina.

So if you use the wide view 99% of the time YOU ARE A CHEATER! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

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Dnmy
04-17-2004, 10:32 AM
pfff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif You must be a noob. But since you're a noob you're forgiven for that cheating accusation.

In real life we have peripheral vision. That covers slightly less than 180 degs in one view
So in real life that's about double what we have in wide view in FB (90 degs).

You got your priorities all wrong. It's not me who's cheating, it's rather that FB is cheating us players out of an extra 90 degs in one view.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

plumps_
04-17-2004, 12:19 PM
So you really need the explanation ... I was hoping you'd find it yourself.

First learn about the meaning of emoticons.

Then please read some more about the the human eye. English is not my first language so it's not easy to explain it all to you.

Just a few hints:
Only a very small part of the retina (5 degrees, not 90?!), the fovea, allows us to see fairly well. We have 20/20 vision only in the foveola, which is even smaller (only 1.2 degrees). In real life we have to scan the sky actively to find a distant aircraft. In FB a distant aircraft is a dot on a screen that fills 30? of your FOV. The distance between the eye and the screen doesn't change, so your eye's focus doesn't have to change. In real life when you look at the (seemingly empty) sky your eye first has to find the correct focus to see a distant object.

Peripheral vision doesn't allow you to detect objects as small a distant aircraft in the sky.

It's not FB that steals your peripheral vision, it's the fact that you're using a computer. If you want your peripheral vision, take a real aircraft and fly.

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[This message was edited by plumps_ on Sat April 17 2004 at 01:00 PM.]

Dnmy
04-17-2004, 03:57 PM
What i've read in Shaw's Fighter combat book suggests the exact opposite, that you can detect aircraft in the sky using a technique that utilizes the peripheral vision.

Don't get me wrong i can perfectly live with the fact that there's no peripheral vision in this sim. But there's nothing wrong with striving for more real life peripheral vision. And gunsight zoom certainly doesn't belong in that category.

If you don't want sims to progress beyond FB, then i guess it's ok to stick to gunsight zoom.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

plumps_
04-17-2004, 06:04 PM
Here's (http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/AAM-400A/Brochures/Pilot_Vision2_2.htm) what the US FAA Office of Aerospace Medicine thinks about peripheral vision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But, do you know how little detail you see outside of that foveal cone? For example, outside of a ten-degree cone, concentric to the foveal one-degree cone, you see only about one-tenth of what you can see within the foveal field. In terms of an oncoming aircraft, if you are capable of seeing an aircraft within your foveal field at 5,000 feet away, with peripheral vision you would detect it at 500 feet. Another example: using foveal vision we can clearly identify an aircraft flying at a distance of 7 miles; however, using peripheral vision (outside the foveal field) we would require a closer distance of .7 of a mile to recognize the same aircraft. That is why when you were learning to fly, your instructor always told you to "put your head on a swivel," to keep your eyes scanning the wide expanse of space in front of your aircraft.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dnmy:

If you don't want sims to progress beyond FB, then i guess it's ok to stick to gunsight zoom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like you had some great suggestions for improving vision in a computer environment -- other than 'don't use the gunsight view'. Please tell us more.

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Dnmy
04-17-2004, 07:02 PM
I don't know if they were great suggestions, but yes in another thread i had some suggestions to incorporatate peripheral vision in this sim.

Like your quote i can also quote Robert Shaw when he describes the scanning technique using peripheral vision.

The point however is, that zoom represents exactly the opposite of having peripheral vision. And peripheral vision is crucial for fighterpilots. That's why zoom is so out of place in an aircombat sim.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

plumps_
04-17-2004, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The point however is, that zoom represents exactly the opposite of having peripheral vision. And peripheral vision is crucial for fighterpilots. That's why zoom is so out of place in an aircombat sim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That statement nothing but flawed logic. There is no contradiction between using zoom and other views with better peripheral vision. And you are totally ignoring the fact that foveal vision isn't less crucial than peripheral vision.

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Dnmy
04-17-2004, 08:30 PM
You only have to ask yourself one question:

why should we have to zoom in on something we should be able to see anyway?

Is it because real pilots do this?

Not at all.

It's because of the game's limitations that we're sometimes "forced" to use it. But that doesn't make it realistic more than for instance snapviewing with a hatswitch.

And i'm not at all forgetting the fact that foveal view is AS crucial as peripheral vision. That's the entire point. It's just AS crucial. It's rather you who is totally ignoring that fact.

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

plumps_
04-17-2004, 08:47 PM
Argh, this is beginning to get ridiculously repetitive. Read the thread again to see my answer to that...

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Tully__
04-17-2004, 10:31 PM
Did I not say that Dnmy has been very consistent in his opinion on this issue over more than 12 months and that there are no arguments in this thread that haven't been thoroughly hashed over before http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Dnmy
04-17-2004, 10:55 PM
You couldn't see the contradiction between zoom and peripheral vision. But to me it's painfully obvious. So obvious that it surprises me that you couldn't figure it out.

The contradiction is that you lose "peripheral" vision when you use gunsight zoom. The "one view" does not exist when the "other view" is activated. That's the contradiction. And it's an important one. Because peripheral vision is no LESS important that the foveal view. It's AS important. We human beings can't lose our peripheral vision except when we blackout under high G. When using gunsight zoom you're compromising your SA for as long as zoom is activated. A bad compromise in an aircombat game.

Not only that, but you use zoom to see something that you should be able to see anyway.
So with the highly unrealistic action of zooming in (no human being can vary his field of view), you lose your "peripheral" vision (something unrealistic as well as risky) to do something superfluous (because you should be able to see it anyway).

And for what?

Indeed to repeat what you said: it's a restriction we "have" to live with.

(But whether or not we have to live with gunsight zoom was never the issue in this thread. The point was whether that restricion was realistic or not. And it's not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

TooCooL34
04-17-2004, 11:18 PM
I'd rather talk to wall. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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