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Templar_Az
03-13-2014, 08:35 PM
So as many of you know, The Templars ultimate goal is for world peace which they wish to achieve by controlling mankind whereas the Assassins also want World peace but they wish to achieve it by letting mankind use their own free-will rather than be controlled by someone else.

Now through out the series we have seen the Templars struggling for their goal mainly by their "eye-Abstergo" plan (the plan where they needed to get the piece of eden and send it in space on a satelite to put an illusion over the world around the time the world was gonna end) but ofcourse this plan *SPOILERS* failed when the end of the world was stopped by Desmond. We now see in AC:IV the Templars have a new plan, although this new plan has not been made very clear to us yet (atleast to me) but I believe it has something to do with the Observatory and those cubes which contains the blood of the first civilisation.

Now when we look at the Assassins all they seem to do is prevent the Templars from fulfiling their goals; now ofcourse I can see that its important for the Assassins to stop the Templar's plans but we havent seen any plan by the Assassins to achieve their own goals. I mean, we know the method that the Templars wanna use to achieve world peace but how exactly do the Assassins plan to achieve world peace by letting everyone use their free will?

To me the goals of the Templars and Assassins look a little something like this:

Templars Goal: "We want world peace by controlling mankind"
Assassins Goal: "We just wanna stop the Templars, we dont have a clue what were gonna do after that."

By the way I dont want anyone to think this is a "Templars are the real good guys" thread because its not.

I apologise if the wriitng was too much. The main thing to discuss is if the Assassins actually stop the Templars how are they going to achieve world peace through free-will?
You guy's opinions are probably the best thing we have because the series so far has not told us anything.

Dome500
03-13-2014, 08:49 PM
Yeah, I think that is kind of confusing, even if I see the sense of the core philosophies if you ignore the ultimate goal being peace.

The Templars want Control, Order and achieve peace that way.
The Assassins embrace Chaos and think that the natural evolution of mankind will lead to peace one day. Also, I think that they also try to protect the people and prevent wars when possible.

I agree that the Templars have more of a set goal while the Assassins are more in harmony with natural evolution and kind of have no real goal to achieve aside from stopping the Templars and preventing conflicts or wars from getting too bloody (though even that they do not always do).

But then again, this is part of their nature. They embrace Chaos and find satisfaction knowing that everything will go it's natural way.

Though I absolutely see your point.

GunnerGalactico
03-13-2014, 09:20 PM
That is an interesting question. This is my take on things. The Assassins simply seek peace and freedom, not world dominance. The Assassins believe that mankind should be free to do as they choose and not to have their minds controlled and bent to the will of others. The Templars on the other hand, believe that the world is corrupted and world peace can only be achieved by controlling people's minds and ruling over them.

The Assassins do not necessarily have a set goal, they are simply trying to subdue the Templar influence and prevent their domination. The Assassins believe in the natural balance of things. This has been an ongoing battle for generations. Sometimes the Assassins get the upper hand and sometimes they simply don't.

Farlander1991
03-13-2014, 09:30 PM
The Assassins embrace Chaos and think that the natural evolution of mankind will lead to peace one day.

I don't disagree with the second half of the sentence, but if Assassins embrace Chaos then why do they have an Order? ;)

A lot of times Assassins are compared with Anarchists, which I think is misleading in general sense, considering the worldwide perception of what anarchy is. There's a specific branch of anarchy (which I think is the original one though I may be wrong of that) that it's not a 'free-for-all-do-whatever-the-hell-you-want', but a structured community by choice, not by force. Something along those lines, I don't remember the exact definition, it has been a while. But it goes in hand with the belief that the Creed doesn't tell us to be free and do whatever, but to be wise.

So I would say, both Assassins and Templars embrace Order. The difference is, Assassins believe that people can get to that state by themselves because they chose to, while Templars don't, they believe that free will leads to Chaos that causes wars, crimes, and all the bad things.

Of course, there are certain ironies when it comes to what Assassins believe and what they do, but they're well aware of it.

GunnerGalactico
03-13-2014, 09:40 PM
I believe that the Assassins and Templars have very different ideas and definitions of the word "Order". ;)

MnemonicSyntax
03-13-2014, 09:40 PM
So as many of you know, The Templars ultimate goal is for world peace which they wish to achieve by controlling mankind whereas the Assassins also want World peace but they wish to achieve it by letting mankind use their own free-will rather than be controlled by someone else.

Now through out the series we have seen the Templars struggling for their goal mainly by their "eye-Abstergo" plan (the plan where they needed to get the piece of eden and send it in space on a satelite to put an illusion over the world around the time the world was gonna end) but ofcourse this plan *SPOILERS* failed when the end of the world was stopped by Desmond.

Actually, the Eye Abstergo plan was cancelled long before Desmond even step foot into the Great Temple. Since Abstergo couldn't find another POE, the Eye Abstergo plan was scrapped.

So, this just furthers your discussion even more, because the destruction of the original POE was an accident and apparently, the fault of the Templars themselves.

So apparently, Templars are still looking for another POE?

Farlander1991
03-13-2014, 10:00 PM
I believe that the Assassins and Templars have very different ideas and definitions of the word "Order". ;)

I don't believe they do, just as they don't have different ideas of peace. They do have different ideas of how to get to it. In essence, if we take take 'don't murder anybody' as a rule example, Assassins would have humankind follow that rule because it's the wise thing to do, Templars would have humankind do that because they said so. Broadly speaking, of course.

Jish_01
03-13-2014, 10:01 PM
Well the assassins must be doing an okay job, cause in the modern day templars haven't (completely) taken over yet. :)

Jish_01
03-13-2014, 10:03 PM
Also i think the templars need the blood vials so they can use them to go back to adam and eves time so they can discover new technologies, and alternative ways to control, since the satellite launch failed (due to not having Ezios POE if i remember correctly?)

STDlyMcStudpants
03-13-2014, 10:26 PM
That is an interesting question. This is my take on things. The Assassins simply seek peace and freedom, not world dominance. The Assassins believe that mankind should be free to do as they choose and not to have their minds controlled and bent to the will of others. The Templars on the other hand, believe that the world is corrupted and world peace can only be achieved by controlling people's minds and ruling over them.
.

No.....
The Assassins don't chase freedom and don't believe in "Do what thou wilt".

"To recognize nothing is true and everything is permitted. That laws arise not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our Creed does not command us to be free. It commands us to be wise."

This means that law should be natural with no need to be written down. And that no man or order should have say in what is right and wrong.
Example murder is a sin. <period
But what if it is to save your life or the life of another?
They believe that everything should be legal with reasonable cause.

While the Templar believe that order can not possibly be stable in this state of being, that it needs a jurisdiction. A man or a majority in charge with a say of what is right and wrong.
But if you have 5 blind men in a room with the light on, all 5 will tell you that it isn't.

GunnerGalactico
03-13-2014, 10:39 PM
No.....
The Assassins don't chase freedom and don't believe in "Do what thou wilt".

That was not what I was implying, I meant people should have their own free will.. not do as they please or see fit.
Of course Assassins do not chase after freedom, they simply preserve it.


"To recognize nothing is true and everything is permitted. That laws arise not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our Creed does not command us to be free. It commands us to be wise."

This means that law should be natural with no need to be written down. And that no man or order should have say in what is right and wrong.
Example murder is a sin. <period
But what if it is to save your life or the life of another?
They believe that everything should be legal with reasonable cause.

While the Templar believe that order can not possibly be stable in this state of being, that it needs a jurisdiction. A man or a majority in charge with a say of what is right and wrong.
But if you have 5 blind men in a room with the light on, all 5 will tell you that it isn't.


I agree with you on these sentences.

Dome500
03-13-2014, 11:15 PM
but if Assassins embrace Chaos then why do they have an Order?

One sentence:

Ordo ab Chao.

They are not against Order, they are only against Order by Control. They are following a natural order, they believe in that natural balance and evolution if life, like someone else said here


A lot of times Assassins are compared with Anarchists, which I think is misleading in general sense, considering the worldwide perception of what anarchy is. There's a specific branch of anarchy (which I think is the original one though I may be wrong of that) that it's not a 'free-for-all-do-whatever-the-hell-you-want', but a structured community by choice, not by force. Something along those lines, I don't remember the exact definition, it has been a while. But it goes in hand with the belief that the Creed doesn't tell us to be free and do whatever, but to be wise.

So I would say, both Assassins and Templars embrace Order. The difference is, Assassins believe that people can get to that state by themselves because they chose to, while Templars don't, they believe that free will leads to Chaos that causes wars, crimes, and all the bad things.

Agreed.

Assassins believe Order can be taught, understood and accepted.
Templars think it has to be forced.

That'S the difference between Pirates and Assassins.
Pirates want to do as they please.
Assassins want to do what is wise.

But in a way (and I correct myself here), Assassins embrace both Order and Chaos as natural and believe that in a highly enough evolved society peace comes with the understanding, knowledge and wisdom of people.

MasterAssasin84
03-13-2014, 11:24 PM
So as many of you know, The Templars ultimate goal is for world peace which they wish to achieve by controlling mankind whereas the Assassins also want World peace but they wish to achieve it by letting mankind use their own free-will rather than be controlled by someone else.

Now through out the series we have seen the Templars struggling for their goal mainly by their "eye-Abstergo" plan (the plan where they needed to get the piece of eden and send it in space on a satelite to put an illusion over the world around the time the world was gonna end) but ofcourse this plan *SPOILERS* failed when the end of the world was stopped by Desmond. We now see in AC:IV the Templars have a new plan, although this new plan has not been made very clear to us yet (atleast to me) but I believe it has something to do with the Observatory and those cubes which contains the blood of the first civilisation.

Now when we look at the Assassins all they seem to do is prevent the Templars from fulfiling their goals; now ofcourse I can see that its important for the Assassins to stop the Templar's plans but we havent seen any plan by the Assassins to achieve their own goals. I mean, we know the method that the Templars wanna use to achieve world peace but how exactly do the Assassins plan to achieve world peace by letting everyone use their free will?

To me the goals of the Templars and Assassins look a little something like this:

Templars Goal: "We want world peace by controlling mankind"
Assassins Goal: "We just wanna stop the Templars, we dont have a clue what were gonna do after that."

By the way I dont want anyone to think this is a "Templars are the real good guys" thread because its not.

I apologise if the wriitng was too much. The main thing to discuss is if the Assassins actually stop the Templars how are they going to achieve world peace through free-will?
You guy's opinions are probably the best thing we have because the series so far has not told us anything.


Great Topic OP ,


i am 50 50 on this one because to be honest the Assassins themselves opened up more than one can of worms !! Desmond Freeing Juno, Altair breaking the creed by exposing the brotherhood !

But i cannot hep but wonder the templars seem far more widespread than the Assassins and if you ask me the Templars do have the upper hand ! For instance in AC2 when Lucy explains to Desmond that the Assassins are losing the war and the Templars have the upper because they are better equipped and funded.

We cannot live in the Past, what has happened throughout history betweens the Assassins and Templars does not count for now ! in these modern times money talks, i remember an earlier statement made by the infamous Nathan Rothschild - queen president king he whom controls the money controls the world titles count for nothing. to be fair there is merit to his statement .

The Assassins are fighting a noble cause for freedom and humanity but IMO Haytham Kenway hit the nail on the head - Freedom is an invitation to chaos ! and i cannot help but agree with his words that you need some sort of order for society to be civilised to one another. but on the flip side of that coin Nothing is true everything is permited Ezio explained the wisdom of the Creed in a superb manor to Sofia Sartour " Nothing is true is an observation of realty and that the foundations of society are fragile Everything is permited in that we are responsible for our actions wether the results are glorious or Bad , Basically we was given the power of choice by our wonderful pre curser race .

So i believe that both the Assassins and Templars are fulfilling their causes in their own way.

frodrigues55
03-14-2014, 02:36 AM
Congrats on the great topic. :o

I'm not sure I can give my contribution as well as you guys, but I agree with most of what was said.

The Assassin's intentions are noble, but sometimes I see myself thinking that the developers have done a better job ar presenting and telling us the Templar's perspectives and goals.

I think part of this comes from the death speeches - AC3's and AC1's being the strongest. In both of them the Templars showed that they were working for something bigger, but both Altair and Connor seemed to be caught off guard and not being able to give a proper answer. Death speeches were supposed to raise doubt on the player, but that has become somewhat of a problem as there's no counter balance to put us on the Assassin's side again.

And while the games goes through the effort of showing us that there's no bad side, the Templar characters are always straight up evil. It affects the notion of "no rights or wrongs" they want to pass.

As for present day, the impression I have is that the Assassins are always playing catch-up. It's an endless war in which both sides win some battles, but it will never end.