PDA

View Full Version : Boom & Zoom help...



02-10-2004, 06:11 PM
Hello. I've been playing IL2 since near its debut, and I can comfortably say I'm still terrible at it. I play the Campgain, and the only way I can get kills is to use a light turn so the enemy expends its ammo, then rush up behind and shoot them down. QMB is even worse. I would really like to become decent with the Fw190, as its my favorite plane of WWII...

I have read countless posts about Boom and Zoom tactics, and I *THINK* I understand how it is supposed to work. Someone, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Alright, I start a QMB flight at 3000 meters. This gives me a good bit of potential speed for when I zoom, and hopefully time for a boom afterwards.

For the example I'll use, lets say I'm flying a FW190A5. I've heard the A4 is a bit underpowered, and I'll need all the help I can get :P So A5 it is.

I close my radiator, and set prop pitch to 100%. By the time my enemy goes into "Active engage" mode, when they detect my fighter and turn to intercept, I have about a 300-700 meter advantage depending on my airspeed at the time. If I raise my nose, I can get more altitide but less speed for the engagement. If I keep it low, I can be cruising at 280 knots.

So lets say I'm going against a Lagg3, 1941. Average AI skill. He comes flying in at me, and even attempts a crazy deflection shot on me, though I'm going the opposite direction and above him. This doesnt always occur, sometimes he just loops around and plants himself right on my 6 o'clock.

Now if I'm lucky, I will have put some distance between myself and him. Too far for him to shoot me immediatley, at least. So now I'm left with a choice...

Do I pitch my nose down to gain speed, snapping around with my planes rollrate to swoop up behind my enemy? If not, do I just roll and pull back on the stick gently and hope to god he doesnt hit me? What is a good speed to begin my descent?

Now anyways, I am now descending. Straight down. I've read that 500 is the BARE MINIMUM speed to BnZ, so I take it easy and go for 700. He is on my tail during my descent.

So I hit 700 or so, and begin gently pulling up again. I gain back nearly all of my altitude, but he is still on my ***.

I figure the next logical step would be to hammerhead down on him. So I am heading straight back up, and he is apparently holding his energy better, because he is now firing at me...

So I am in midair and give it rudder to the left or right. It doesnt seem to matter, I'm pretty much bound to die at this time. Sometimes I stay in midair as long as possible and get shot out of my suspended state. While hanging at 30 knots in midair. Sometimes I hurry up and roll to get my nose down again at 120-200 knots. Sometimes I even have enough luck to attempt another zoom. But he is still on my tail http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Where am I going wrong? I can send a track to someone of me ATTEMPTING to boom and zoom, if I havent been descriptive enough. But even better, is there anyone whould could post a link to a BnZ track? Preferably in a FW190? Some written advice would be much appreciated as well.

Thanks in advance. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

02-10-2004, 06:11 PM
Hello. I've been playing IL2 since near its debut, and I can comfortably say I'm still terrible at it. I play the Campgain, and the only way I can get kills is to use a light turn so the enemy expends its ammo, then rush up behind and shoot them down. QMB is even worse. I would really like to become decent with the Fw190, as its my favorite plane of WWII...

I have read countless posts about Boom and Zoom tactics, and I *THINK* I understand how it is supposed to work. Someone, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Alright, I start a QMB flight at 3000 meters. This gives me a good bit of potential speed for when I zoom, and hopefully time for a boom afterwards.

For the example I'll use, lets say I'm flying a FW190A5. I've heard the A4 is a bit underpowered, and I'll need all the help I can get :P So A5 it is.

I close my radiator, and set prop pitch to 100%. By the time my enemy goes into "Active engage" mode, when they detect my fighter and turn to intercept, I have about a 300-700 meter advantage depending on my airspeed at the time. If I raise my nose, I can get more altitide but less speed for the engagement. If I keep it low, I can be cruising at 280 knots.

So lets say I'm going against a Lagg3, 1941. Average AI skill. He comes flying in at me, and even attempts a crazy deflection shot on me, though I'm going the opposite direction and above him. This doesnt always occur, sometimes he just loops around and plants himself right on my 6 o'clock.

Now if I'm lucky, I will have put some distance between myself and him. Too far for him to shoot me immediatley, at least. So now I'm left with a choice...

Do I pitch my nose down to gain speed, snapping around with my planes rollrate to swoop up behind my enemy? If not, do I just roll and pull back on the stick gently and hope to god he doesnt hit me? What is a good speed to begin my descent?

Now anyways, I am now descending. Straight down. I've read that 500 is the BARE MINIMUM speed to BnZ, so I take it easy and go for 700. He is on my tail during my descent.

So I hit 700 or so, and begin gently pulling up again. I gain back nearly all of my altitude, but he is still on my ***.

I figure the next logical step would be to hammerhead down on him. So I am heading straight back up, and he is apparently holding his energy better, because he is now firing at me...

So I am in midair and give it rudder to the left or right. It doesnt seem to matter, I'm pretty much bound to die at this time. Sometimes I stay in midair as long as possible and get shot out of my suspended state. While hanging at 30 knots in midair. Sometimes I hurry up and roll to get my nose down again at 120-200 knots. Sometimes I even have enough luck to attempt another zoom. But he is still on my tail http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Where am I going wrong? I can send a track to someone of me ATTEMPTING to boom and zoom, if I havent been descriptive enough. But even better, is there anyone whould could post a link to a BnZ track? Preferably in a FW190? Some written advice would be much appreciated as well.

Thanks in advance. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Raider_356th
02-10-2004, 06:33 PM
S!

ok problemo numbero uno... you need to get higher than 3,000...u need to get what ever alt u can.. i usually go up to about 5,000m, thats usually plenty, unless u got other people up that high...after u make a pass on someone, start a slow climb to maintain ur speed without losing it fast, and u will regain alt...once u get near 400knts, slow ur climb even more...once u get about 2 or 3 clicks away from them, turn back..by this point in time, u should have alt on them again...i usually do a split S, and i keep repeating this untill i kill them or someone gets close to me thats at the alt i zoom and boom from... hope this helps.. S!

Wildman
5E_B
364thFG Commanding Officer
"Too Tough To Tame"
"Fighter Aircraft Are Designed-And Fighter Pilots Are Trained-To Fight. If There Are Enemy Aircraft In The Air, And Contact Is Not Made, Somthing Is Wrong"
-From VMF-214 ("BlackSheep") Offical History, Appendix E: Major Boyington's Combat Tactics
http://blacksheepwebdesign.net/364thFG/364thFGWeb/364banner.jpg

cd.jakevas
02-10-2004, 06:40 PM
send me a track. ill be happy to check it out. jacobNOSPAM.c.NOSPAMvasquez@ttu.edu, remove NOSPAM, ill send u a track back also just so u can see what i do.


http://members.cox.net/jakevas/sig7.jpg

JG14_Josf
02-10-2004, 07:58 PM
AaronKane,

In order to communicate effectively it is important to define the terminology.

Does this term "Boom and Zoom" describe hit and run tactics?

Or is this term meant to describe energy tactics?

Hit and run tactics work when the attacker maintains an energy advantage and maintains an advantage in possition. The hit is made from every possible advantage, and the run is done to maintain every possible advantage.

Hit and run tactics are recommended when the attacking plane is double inferior, or when the attacking plane has no performance advantages against the target plane.

Example:
FW190A8 vs LA7 (under 2,000 meters)


When employing the hit and run tactic there is a real problem when the run part is not followed through with enough separation before trying for another hit. The run must be done so that the target is left behind and unable to pose a threat. When the target is fully on the defensive and preferably unaware of another attack; only then is it advisable to stop running and start hitting.

If however the term Boom and Zoom is meant to describe energy tactics then it is important to be more precise in describing the actual maneuvering.

Energy tactics can work with the 190A5 vs the Early Lagg3 matchup.
According to IL2compare; the 190A5 holds a speed advantage and a climb advantage at most altitudes. The Lagg3 Series 4 can turn a higher rate turn at slower speeds.

The idea behind energy tactics is to lure the enemy into using up energy at a higher rate, to eventually gain an energy advantage that can be used to maneuver into a firing possition.

Unlike the hit and run tactic, energy tactics can be used to advantage even when the enemy is on your 6 going faster.

Energy tactics work when the opponent burns energy at a higher rate. The problem with this tactic is that burning energy usually results in better possition and of course better possition usually results in gaining the opportunity to shoot.

When reading books like "Figher Combat" by Robert Shaw it becomes very clear that energy tactics depend upon precise speed control.

This means that going too fast is bad and going too slow is bad.

I think much of the reasoning behind maintaining the correct speed for energy fighting has to do with the fact that energy can be conserved better at the correct speed while energy is burned at higher rates when not at the correct speed.

Often Robert Shaw will refer to corner speed and vertical maneuvering speed, both being very important "correct speeds".

I tend to believe that when two guys are fighting an energy fight in IL2/FB the one who maintains corner speed will eventually win, while the one who goes slower may find himself possitioned better for fleeting moments, the slower one will burn more energy and eventually be at such an energy dissadvantage that he will no longer have the capacity to defend.

Going too fast can also create a huge energy dissadvantage. While the fast one burn altitude for speed his net energy loss is much greater than the opponent who maintains a shallow dive at corner speed or even vertical maneuvering speed.

The diving plane going 700kph is in worse shape energy wise than the plane following at 350kph because the slower plane has more altitude.

Take up the offer to exchange track files.

This is a solid investment in time if the desire is to learn how to improve.

Here is another source for track files:

Thanks to Michapma (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)

Here is a written description of one energy tactic:Sustained Turn Techniques (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm)

The file on Michapma's Tracks page titled "Energy game" is my demonstration of sustained turn techniques.

If you want to run the Energy game track file as a training track then follow the instructions reported by Michapma on his page.

P.S.
When someone dives away at high speed. I usually let them go. If they come back up they almost ceratinly have less energy than when they left.

Sturmtrooper
02-10-2004, 08:07 PM
I wouldn't try the hammerhead stall thingy if he is on your six . When you are at the apex of your manouever , you are just sittin' there . Like a duck , so to speak . Hangin' in midair like a target , waitin' to get shot .
Don't get me wrong , the hammerhead stall is a valid defensive manouever . But I think it's more of a last resort . (looks good at airshows) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Remember this : speed is life .
The higher your speed the greater your chances of survival . The pilot with the greater speed can engage/disengage at will . He has the advantage .
Wildman 5E_B is right when he says to split-s , put some distance between you and your enemy , turn around , engage , repeat .
It also really helps to know what type of aircraft your enemy is flying and what that aircraft's performance is .
When BoomNZooming always keep your speed up and keep the altitude advantage , that is , remain higher than your adversary .
Don't get suckered into a turning dogfight .
Keep practicing !!!

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/183/183586/pages/456377/untitled1.gif

Recon_609IAP
02-10-2004, 10:08 PM
Lagg3 '41 is pretty bad aircraft

You have a 190a5?

Speed is your friend then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You control the fight by keep your speed high at all times.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

repco
02-11-2004, 07:23 AM
Bump for an excellent thread & thanks for the training track Josf. I need to look at it properly (took a peek during lunch)... several times over http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FWdreamer
02-11-2004, 07:26 AM
S!
Using the hammerhead move can be a good offensive weapon if done right. From what i have learned there is only one real time that i use it, when we merge. When i fly aganst the russian planes and their superior turn radius i take this into account. Most russian pilots I have flown against are overconfident in their turn rates, so as they zip past me upon engagment they think one ill just dive and try and out run them or keep level and out run them. So they try and turn as fast as possible even at cost of energy. Then they see me going straight up, and they get even greedier. Now the 190 hangs on its prop pretty well and has solid armour in the back so you are safe for a bit form the russian guns, who are usually spraying led hoping to hit you with a lucky shot. All the while hoping they hit you cause their enrgy is now gone and are dead in the air. Once the 190 flips over on its back I gain energy back fast due to its weight and powerful engine. My target however is sturggling to get E back by diving down or leveling out, either way advantage back to the 190. Make my pass and get hits, if not repeat the process or try another tactic, becuase you will now have the enrgy advantage as well as speed and hopefully height. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif This works well until ou go against the late war models of russian craft because they can now climb and accelerate as well as the antons, not sure how the D9s work their magic. Hope this helps, it works for me fairly well.

FWdreamer

Maple_Tiger
02-11-2004, 07:47 AM
Try this, it seems to work well in the P-47 and P-51.


Sart a fight at about 1000m in the QMB. Im in the P-51 or P-47. I make shure i have magneto's 1+2 on, rad closed, 100% power and Combat rpm.

Then i fly straight and level picking up as much speed as i possibly can. Once i see the enemy planes(KI-84's AI) i go into a slight dive. I try and reach atleast 450 indicated.

Mean while the stupit AI has turned to get on your six and has burned alot of there E. So when you pull up gently and go vertical the AI cannot follow you up. Great time for a hammer head.

02-11-2004, 08:22 AM
Wow, thanks ALOT for all the help guys, I'm really thankful for all this infomration http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Last night, using the tactics described by Jg14-Josf, I actually shook a Yak1, Yak 9, and Lagg3 off my tail, came back down on THEIR six o'clock, and blew the hell out of them. The Yak9 went into a big climb and tried to get away, but I got him anyways. I LOVE SUSTAINED TURN TECCHNIQUE! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But yeah, thanks loads guys. I couldnt be happier with how things are coming along for me. I'll work on my Hit and run tactics now. Thanks again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LilHorse
02-11-2004, 09:46 AM
For BnZ (= hit and run), probably one of your main problems is that you are trying to do this against AI.
Ever notice that even when you're creeping up behind an AI e/a that at a certain point they suddenly start jinking around? They have eyes on the back of their tailplanes. What I'm trying to say is, it aint easy trying to BnZ AI. They always have some form of awareness as to where you are. Trying to extend away often doesn't help you since some of them will try to follow you making it difficult to set up another pass on them. You might try flying in a flight of friendlies to keep the baddies busy while you set up another run.

Online, BnZ can be quite effective. You can use the sun, clouds and of course altitude to your advantage (when icons are off that is) because humans don't have the super awareness of AI. However, you should be forwarned. With the exception of the super accurate head-on shot and insane deflection shooting of AI, humans are much tougher opponants. Either way it helps to have wingmen.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-11-2004, 10:09 AM
Hi,

Hammerhead can be effective if you have enough separation from your intended victim and any other bandits in the vicinity. Big mistake to try it otherwise.

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/