PDA

View Full Version : Programing of FM's



XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:27 PM
Well, I was just wondering, what tools did the IL-2 development team use to edit the aircraft FM's? Since I don't fly FB online anymore i'd like to know if there are any tools that would allow me to play with the FM and DM files.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:27 PM
Well, I was just wondering, what tools did the IL-2 development team use to edit the aircraft FM's? Since I don't fly FB online anymore i'd like to know if there are any tools that would allow me to play with the FM and DM files.

Buzz_25th
10-10-2003, 11:29 PM
No.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:33 PM
Then what did the dev-team use to make them!?!

Buzz_25th
10-10-2003, 11:34 PM
They used something you can't have. Give up on the idea.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:35 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- They used something you can't have. Give up on the
- idea.

Any reason for that?

Buzz_25th
10-10-2003, 11:37 PM
For one reason. Oleg wants it that way. For another, i'm glad he does, because it would open up cheating just like CFS games.

This has been talked to death in the past. Trust me. It's not going to happen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:42 PM
Like the version-checking would miss that kinda stuff!

As it stands now, i'm on 1.1b because 1.1F/1.11 suck. I'd like to do a little work on it, but hey, if Oleg wants it that way, then thats the way it'l be.


All hail our great commander Oleg Maddox!

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:45 PM
Buzz is right mate. FB is not moddable at all, aircraft and FMs are locked to the community and that's the way it's going to stay (personally, that's the way I like it as well).
Sorry.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:49 PM
Well i'm sorry that the members of the community feel that haveing open DM/FM's are such a bad thing. On all of the games I know of with open FM/DM's the community uses that in a CONSTRUCTIVE way, removeing some of the strain from the dev teams through 3rd party work. Granted, there are cheaters, but we have cheaters even now!

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:50 PM
having the FM's encrypted is the best thing about the il2 series. before il2 , my cfs2 squad would probably kick about 10 x-wing fighter planes with 100 guns every night. such a pain ;(

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:53 PM
last time i checked there were no cheaters in il2. when it says cheating has been detected that is just what the servers say when users lag. the only quote un quote cheating , would have to be this whole "trim" thing, which is an age old debate.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:54 PM
there are simple ways to solve this. Programs called "Mod Enablers"

EX: In Sierra's game SWAT-3, players can make custom weapons for them to use. The changes are either made from a pre-existing file or made from scratch, a Mod-Enabler is then used to activate the mod. Players are able to use the mods in single player, or with other players who have the mod activated. On servers running a default version any changes made by the mod are ignored, and it plays as default.

So, why not implement something like that for FB?

Buzz_25th
10-11-2003, 12:04 AM
Nope! Here's why. The hard part is cracking the code to modify it.

Your asking for a tool that does that for you. All that;s left is to hack it so it doesn't show online. Much easier than trying to hack the whole thing.

It's like giving someone the combination to the vault, and saying all you need to do is get in the bank.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 12:14 AM
It is certainly possible that the 'FM' is far too complicated to edit in any case. Consider that to change the turning ability you might have to modify a complicated series of algorithyms modelling packets of air flowing over the wing... not at all the same as changing some table values.

My guess as from a previous thread ("flight model") in Oleg's ready room is that this sim is far beyond any simple quick changes, since it is (may be) a simulated plane with air - not a set of vectors and non-linear functions....

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 01:21 AM
ok..

buzz- you missed my entire point entirely.

gkll- i don't wanna make any complex changes, and the tools could simplify that kinda stuff.

Buzz_25th
10-11-2003, 01:36 AM
I don't think so, but it looks as though you missed mine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/drew2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 01:43 AM
IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN KID!!!!!

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 01:43 AM
-- i don't wanna make any complex changes,

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 01:45 AM
VOL_Jon wrote:
- Well, I was just wondering, what tools did the IL-2
- development team use to edit the aircraft FM's?
- Since I don't fly FB online anymore i'd like to know
- if there are any tools that would allow me to play
- with the FM and DM files.

No and I thank god there is no such thing! Closed Code is the only way to go when it comes to FM's this aint linx

<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
</div>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 02:15 AM
Oleg needs to move to better FM physics. X-plane is a perfect example of how to rid the community of these discussions.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 02:56 AM
Cool dood, I'm gonna mod a 239 with the engines from a 262 and add a bunch of 108's pointing straight back so when a lamer getz on my sixz I'll waistem.

Or something like that...

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 02:56 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Oleg needs to move to better FM physics. X-plane is
- a perfect example of how to rid the community of
- these discussions.

But devoting all the PC processing power to simulate only one or two planes at a time with no AI would make for a very boring Combat Flight Sim


<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
</div>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 03:11 AM
Is this a good time to ask when IL-3 is coming out?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 03:38 AM
No, bad question /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<DIV ALIGN=right>That's right!</DIV>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 03:53 AM
I'm interested in what you would change VOL_Jon. Can you explain?

Not that it should be allowed mind you, but I'm just curious.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 03:54 AM
What, are you living in a fantasy world where extensively modifiable games are used in multi-hundred-thousand-dollar tournaments, are subject to millions of eyeballs trying to work out how to cheat - and failing, where large teams of game modders spend months developing custom content for existing games before turning commercial and going into the profession as professionals?

That's crazy talk!

Keep the game source closed, for goodness sake! Noone knows what might happen!



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 01:50 PM
tagert wrote:
- BaldieJr wrote:
-- Oleg needs to move to better FM physics. X-plane is
-- a perfect example of how to rid the community of
-- these discussions.
-
- But devoting all the PC processing power to simulate
- only one or two planes at a time with no AI would
- make for a very boring Combat Flight Sim
-

So you split the process into two parts.

Use table-based real-time alg.
Create a compiler that takes params from the model (air foil shape/size etc) and engine data (i'd compile a master list of engine types so that end-users can say "my plane uses type 1 engine and wieghs X).

Then, all the dev team will have to do is check for visual abnormalites, make sure the proper engines are listed, and compile the plane.

Since the FM is computed from real air-foil shape, theres no way anyone can argue about FM, only incorrect modelling or wrong engine installation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The same system could be used for weapons.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 02:43 PM
Ummm, if you want X-Plane, why not use X-Plane?

Do you really expect the next patch to replace the whole flight system?

The X-Plane method of using pure blade-element theory makes a dynamic model of flight. If you convert it to a table, you just have a long winded way to get a CFS engine. And people can _always_ argue about FM. If you look at some of the old news on X-Plane, some time ago Austin found that the Cessna was way out on roll speed, as the controls surfaces are hinged at the top which makes it behave a bit differently in real life.

Bottom line is, if you want a modifiable game, go get targetware games, MS CFS or X-Plane.

BaldieJr wrote:
- So you split the process into two parts.
-
- Use table-based real-time alg.
- Create a compiler that takes params from the model
- (air foil shape/size etc) and engine data (i'd
- compile a master list of engine types so that
- end-users can say "my plane uses type 1 engine and
- wieghs X).
-
- Then, all the dev team will have to do is check for
- visual abnormalites, make sure the proper engines
- are listed, and compile the plane.
-
- Since the FM is computed from real air-foil shape,
- theres no way anyone can argue about FM, only
- incorrect modelling or wrong engine installation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-
- The same system could be used for weapons.

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 03:47 PM
Bnej_03 wrote:
- Ummm, if you want X-Plane, why not use X-Plane?

Umm, I didn't say that, I said I want X-Planes FM.

-
- Do you really expect the next patch to replace the
- whole flight system?

No. I expect the next GAME to replace the whole flight system. For the patch, I expect nothing but more whining.

Olegs FM calculations are broken as evidenced by the operation of trim. If he's creating a new game engine, he'll be creating new physics to go along with it. The FM algorithm will be changing, so he might as well use an intelligent and scalable design, rather than listen to the uninformed users again (sloth-pitch is next, i'm sure. there is no way a RL pilot could have pushed that lever THAT FAST).

- The X-Plane method of using pure blade-element
- theory makes a dynamic model of flight. If you
- convert it to a table, you just have a long winded
- way to get a CFS engine. And people can _always_
- argue about FM. If you look at some of the old news
- on X-Plane, some time ago Austin found that the
- Cessna was way out on roll speed, as the controls
- surfaces are hinged at the top which makes it behave
- a bit differently in real life.

I know this. So what? Problems will arise no matter how you compute FM physics. My point is, its rediculous to use some hoodoo-voodoo code when better alg's already exist. The community wants lots of planes: so give them the chance to make them.

- Bottom line is, if you want a modifiable game, go
- get targetware games, MS CFS or X-Plane.

So the same logic should be applied to anyone who wants a specific plane: go play MS CFS or X-plane, you plane is in those games. Cool, now maybe I wont have to read so much about spitfires and B-17's. Oh hell, we might as well toss out the BoB idea since there are already games that cover it.

As someone stated already: a user-modifyable game is entirely possible. People want to be able to customize things. You don't have to partake in such things if you don't want to.


- BaldieJr wrote:
-- So you split the process into two parts.
--
-- Use table-based real-time alg.
-- Create a compiler that takes params from the model
-- (air foil shape/size etc) and engine data (i'd
-- compile a master list of engine types so that
-- end-users can say "my plane uses type 1 engine and
-- wieghs X).
--
-- Then, all the dev team will have to do is check for
-- visual abnormalites, make sure the proper engines
-- are listed, and compile the plane.
--
-- Since the FM is computed from real air-foil shape,
-- theres no way anyone can argue about FM, only
-- incorrect modelling or wrong engine installation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
--
-- The same system could be used for weapons.
-
-



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 04:23 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- So you split the process into two parts.
-
- Use table-based real-time alg.
- Create a compiler that takes params from the model
- (air foil shape/size etc) and engine data (i'd
- compile a master list of engine types so that
- end-users can say "my plane uses type 1 engine and
- wieghs X).
-
- Then, all the dev team will have to do is check for
- visual abnormalites, make sure the proper engines
- are listed, and compile the plane.
-
- Since the FM is computed from real air-foil shape,
- theres no way anyone can argue about FM, only
- incorrect modelling or wrong engine installation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- The same system could be used for weapons.

Sound easy to do... Problem is it aint easy. How am I so sure? Because if it was someone would have done it by now and there wouldnt be this search for WWII aircraft data used to validate FM's

<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
</div>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 05:01 PM
tagert,

If noone was doing pixel shaders 5 years ago, whats the big deal about them now? Using your logic, we might as well stick with terrain made from voxels because they worked well in 1995!





<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 05:17 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
-
- tagert,
-
- If noone was doing pixel shaders 5 years ago, whats
- the big deal about them now? Using your logic, we
- might as well stick with terrain made from voxels
- because they worked well in 1995!

Well if they start making FM boards that plug into an AGP like slot then we can talk.. but until then! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
</div>
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forum
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion