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JG14_Josf
12-23-2003, 11:53 AM
Does anyone have a link to a source of information that documents the performance capabilities of WWII Combat Aircraft?

If not I would like to start one.

Please post here any information that can be downloaded to my hard drive and then burned to disc information that documents WWII Combat Aircraft performance capabilities.

JG14_Josf
12-23-2003, 11:53 AM
Does anyone have a link to a source of information that documents the performance capabilities of WWII Combat Aircraft?

If not I would like to start one.

Please post here any information that can be downloaded to my hard drive and then burned to disc information that documents WWII Combat Aircraft performance capabilities.

clint-ruin
12-24-2003, 11:55 AM
People here usually can't be restrained from thrusting a soggy bundle of hand calculated figures with the end result underlined 5 times in red.

Except when someone asks?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

TX-Zen
12-24-2003, 12:33 PM
See if you can send a PM to Wastel, he's extremely knowledgeable about Luftwaffe aircraft.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
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JG14_Josf
12-24-2003, 02:20 PM
I now have a few charts from another post that look like original documents.

Authentication is going to be difficult at best.

For now my goal is to simply gather potential suportive evidence that can be used to form a more accurate assesment of WWII combat aircraft relative performance.

The key in this project is to understand the concept of relative performance. The accuracy of specific numbers is less important than the ultimate ability to compare relative performance.

Documentation will span a range of values from best to worst case examples. Once the range of information is narrowed down to a specific average value then each plane can be compared to each other as a further check on accuracy. In each catagory of performance a highest and lowest capability can be attributed to specific planes subject of course to revision. Each plane will fall into rank and file order based upon comparative analasis again subject to revision based upon suportive evidence.
Once a base line chart is made that will grade each plane on the scale; the absolute values become relatively meaninless for the purposes of combat flight simulation. The best turning plane should turn the best. Two planes close in climb performance may require some anecdotal evidence to tip the balance one way or the other until such time as a more valid proof can show otherwise.

As more planes are fit into the database the level of accuracy is improved.

For example:

The data base starts with 2 planes:
The P11c and the Bf109.

Relative performance is easy; accuracy does not require much refinement in order for realtive performance to be valid.

Now add two more planes:
The F2A-1 and the P-47

Here again the relative performance between the Brewster and the Thunderbolt is easy. It would be very unusual to find any documentation to support the hypothesis that the Brewster was faster than the P-47.

However the relative performance between the P-47 and the Messerschmitt will be more difficult to determine and require more specific information.

Determining which plane was fastest in a dive may be very difficult yet the job may become possible once more planes are introduced with more supportive evidence. There may not be suportive evidence to determine if the P-47 dove faster than the Messerschmitt however there may be evidence supporting that the P-51 dove slower than the P-47 and supportive evidence that the P-51 dove faster than the Messerschmitt. In which case the evidence then would suggest that the P-47 would dive faster than the Messerschmitt.

Once a pool of information is ironed out over time the level of accuracy will improve if for no other reason than many of the wrong conclusions will have been proven false.

clint-ruin
12-24-2003, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Once a pool of information is ironed out over time the level of accuracy will improve if for no other reason than many of the wrong conclusions will have been proven false.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No original charts, but some 'list' style info here: http://wio.ru/index.htm

One thing that Oleg mentioned in his responses to Cubes tests is that for russian data the text that goes with the charts is as important as the charts themselves. The test conditions are quite important [and how they've been normalised for testing], as is the test aircraft itself - aircraft in the field are obviously going to test less well than prototypes or manufacturers showcase planes.

The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the results between contemporary aircraft are going to be strictly error margin differences. People seem to get very bent out of shape over 1-2 second turn or climb differences in-game as compared to a specific aircraft for some reason.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

SkyChimp
12-24-2003, 04:43 PM
Good luck. There is, or has been, a plethora of documents posted on the internet yet disagreements still persist.

I'd further suggest that serious collectors of this stuff are not going to be willing to simply post or give access to their collections, on which they've spent years gathering from obscur sources. I'm not a serious collector, but I have collected documents from Grumman which I've shared only with one or two other people that have given me previously unposted documents that they had in return.

I'd suggest, JG, that you start an aviation library. Yeah, it's expensive and time consuming as well. But you'll create a permanent record for yourself from which you can continually draw.

There are a 4(5 since one is a 2 volume set) good books that would be a great foundation for a more detailed collection of aviation books:



http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/aviationwwii/images/0764300725.gif
America's Hundred Thousand
U.S. Production Fighters of World War II
Francis H. Dean
ISBN: 0764300725



"British Fighter: Since 1912"
Mason, Putnamn Publishing
(no image)



http://www.aeroplanebooks.com/putgaww2.jpg
"German Aircraft of the Second World War"
Smith and Kay, Putnam



"SOVIET COMBAT AIRCRAFT OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR"
Volume I on single engined aircraft
Volume II on multi-engined aircraft
Gordon & Khazanov, Midland Counties



You can get all these books for under $200. And they will answer 90% of the questions you ever have on these respective countries' planes.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

LeadSpitter_
12-24-2003, 10:00 PM
like chimp said most of the information you need to buy or request photo copies from the gov for accurate data. Alot of the statisics from book to book variery alot the best choice is getting mockdogfighting test results

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clint-ruin
12-25-2003, 08:17 AM
Does anyone know of any other sources?

I'm interested to know the state of copyright on WW2 test data. Has NACA or TSAGI copyright been continuously renewed since the original tests? If it's government data sponsored by taxes, and declassified, is it freely available to the public?

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

LeadSpitter_
12-25-2003, 11:49 AM
clint you can find everything here

http://www.archives.gov/

photocopies run from $10-20 for processing and retrival fees, it is worth it they even have la5 yak mig and other flight test data but i havent purchased any. You have to write to them and and be specific on what your looking for

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
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karost
12-25-2003, 02:03 PM
Hi, JG14_Josf
Good post here , I like that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hey, I hope to see new "Energy Manueverbility Diagram" around here too .... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!