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View Full Version : Jannisaries and Jäger's Should Be Regular-tier Guards.



Shahkulu101
02-08-2014, 11:41 PM
Killing a group of Jäger's or jannisaries is somewhat challenging, tactical and satisfying. This is how all combat in AC should feel, on the regular. Occasionally if we are forced to, or stupidly decide to fight elite-tier guards we should be presented with a challenge only surmountable through skillful mastery.

SixKeys
02-09-2014, 12:09 AM
God no. I always blew through my entire supply of rope darts when fighting Jaegers because that was the least annoying way to take them down. Add to this the new "feature" they added in AC4 where the assassin seems to have ADD and won't stay focused on one enemy at a time, but will keep bouncing back and forth even if he's just an inch away from finishing his first target.

There should be more of a balance, somewhat like AC1 where very often you would have a couple of regular guards led by an elite captain. There were lots more elites around in that game. They shouldn't replace all regular guards with Jaeger/Janissary-level enemies, just make their numbers more balanced.

SirZeel
02-09-2014, 12:11 AM
God no.

You're a pu**y.
[I thought the exact same words but decided to not post because I feared I'd look a filthy casual]

Shahkulu101
02-09-2014, 12:19 AM
God no. I always blew through my entire supply of rope darts when fighting Jaegers because that was the least annoying way to take them down. Add to this the new "feature" they added in AC4 where the assassin seems to have ADD and won't stay focused on one enemy at a time, but will keep bouncing back and forth even if he's just an inch away from finishing his first target.

There should be more of a balance, somewhat like AC1 where very often you would have a couple of regular guards led by an elite captain. There were lots more elites around in that game. They shouldn't replace all regular guards with Jaeger/Janissary-level enemies, just make their numbers more balanced.

The easiest way to kill Jäger's was to disarm them and mash for the kill. The elite captains in AC1 were easy to defeat with a one hit counter kill - always thought they were overrated. Even Jägers are easy, jannisaries are the only groups that have ever stifled me. And in ACR with Ottoman patrols there was commonly at least one jannisary in there, like how you describe AC1.

I just think that having predominantly elite guards in the game is a good way to increase challenge level while not straying into the hardcore avenues.

SixKeys
02-09-2014, 12:27 AM
The easiest way to kill Jäger's was to disarm them and mash for the kill. The elite captains in AC1 were easy to defeat with a one hit counter kill - always thought they were overrated. Even Jägers are easy, jannisaries are the only groups that have ever stifled me. And in ACR with Ottoman patrols there was commonly at least one jannisary in there, like how you describe AC1.

I just think that having predominantly elite guards in the game is a good way to increase challenge level while not straying into the hardcore avenues.

I didn't mean the elite guards in AC1 were hard, the Templars were easily the hardest enemies in that game (and even them not so much once you mastered countering). I was referring to their numbers. It could be my memory is just playing tricks on me, but I seem to recall there being more captain archetypes around in AC1 compared to the other games. In later games it's mostly agiles and regulars with a few brutes here and there. We could get rid of agiles and brutes entirely and just have regulars and Janissary-level elites as captains, spread evenly around each location.

dxsxhxcx
02-09-2014, 12:28 AM
they need to work in the fluidity of combat before consider this, if you play on a defensive stance (relying mostly on counter attacks) deal with these kind of guards all the time would make the combat boring pretty fast...

Shahkulu101
02-09-2014, 12:40 AM
they need to work in the fluidity of combat before consider this, if you play on a defensive stance (relying mostly on counter attacks) deal with these kind of guards all the time would make the combat boring pretty fast...

They could include streak combos that don't necessarily kill the enemies, and make them able to be interrupted by guards. So we would have to retain the flow somehow by countering their attacks. However they should make it more dynamic i.e you have to react differently depending on how your opponent is attacking - example: if two attack at once there is a VERY BRIEF counter window and we must press a sequence of 3-4 specific buttons to successfully keep our 'streak combo'.

SixKeys
02-09-2014, 12:43 AM
They could include streak combos that don't necessarily kill the enemies, and make them able to be interrupted by guards. So we would have to retain the flow somehow by countering their attacks. However they should make it more dynamic i.e you have to react differently depending on how your opponent is attacking - example: if two attack at once there is a VERY BRIEF counter window and we must press a sequence of 3-4 specific buttons to successfully keep our 'streak combo'.

Wait, what? Are you suggesting AC should turn into Tekken?

Shahkulu101
02-09-2014, 12:50 AM
Wait, what? Are you suggesting AC should turn into Tekken?

Okay maybe just a couple of buttons for taming two enemies at once - that would make sense since you are technically countering two people. It's weird that double counters require less effort than standard ones.

dxsxhxcx
02-09-2014, 12:51 AM
They could include streak combos that don't necessarily kill the enemies, and make them able to be interrupted by guards. So we would have to retain the flow somehow by countering their attacks. However they should make it more dynamic i.e you have to react differently depending on how your opponent is attacking - example: if two attack at once there is a VERY BRIEF counter window and we must press a sequence of 3-4 specific buttons to successfully keep our 'streak combo'.

the problem isn't the flow of the killstreaks (while your idea could make things interesting if implemented right), but the lack of fluidity outside that situation (enemies taking ages to do something), did you already try to rely only on counters instead of mash the attack button until you kill everyone in a big fight? I already faced situations where I believe even a mentally challenged person could multitask while he waits for the enemies to attack him, that's how bad the fluidity of AC's combat is/can be, and to make things worse this issue has been around since AC1...

Shahkulu101
02-09-2014, 01:05 AM
the problem isn't the flow of the killstreaks (while your idea could make things interesting if implemented right), but the lack of fluidity outside that situation (enemies taking ages to do something), did you already try to rely only on counters instead of mash the attack button until you kill everyone in a big fight? I already faced situations where I believe even a mentally challenged person could multitask while he waits for the enemies to attack him, that's how bad the fluidity of AC's combat is/can be, and to make things worse this issue has been around since AC1...

Hmmm...a tough not to crack this. The obvious thing to say is to have enemies attack more frequently but then it would likely turn into a counter fest, something many complain about now - there has to be some solution...

SixKeys
02-09-2014, 01:07 AM
the problem isn't the flow of the killstreaks (while your idea could make things interesting if implemented right), but the lack of fluidity outside that situation (enemies taking ages to do something), did you already try to rely only on counters instead of mash the attack button until you kill everyone in a big fight? I already faced situations where I believe even a mentally challenged person could multitask while he waits for the enemies to attack him, that's how bad the fluidity of AC's combat is/can be, and to make things worse this issue has been around since AC1...

Just today I was playing AC4 and got into a fight on a ship during one of the assassination contracts. There were only two soldiers left and I tried doing the old AC2-style wait-until-they-attack-then-counter. I realized I would be old and senile if I waited to allow them to attack first. They both just kept circling me endlessly, looking like a couple of dumb*sses. I gave them plenty of opportunities to surround me, and they did nothing. The aggressiveness of enemies should really be top priority for the next installment. This kind of AI may have been acceptable in 2007, but not in 2014.

Fatal-Feit
02-09-2014, 01:37 AM
Lol@ThisEntireThread

You guys are forgetting tool counters and double tool kills. AC:3 and AC:4 weren't built upon the wait and counter scheme.

dxsxhxcx
02-09-2014, 01:39 AM
Hmmm...a tough not to crack this. The obvious thing to say is to have enemies attack more frequently but then it would likely turn into a counter fest, something many complain about now - there has to be some solution...

I think 1HK0 enemies during a counter attack should be based on a percentage of their current health, the lower the enemy's health is, higher the chance to 1HK0 him with a counter attack, if we "fail" at it we are hit by the enemy or just inflict damage enough to make the enemy take some distance and try to attack us again (situations that could be completely random)


Lol@ThisEntireThread You guys are forgetting tool counters and double tool kills. AC:3 and AC:4 weren't built upon the wait and counter scheme.

this is happening since AC1, and that's exactly the problem, I shouldn't have to wait to counter an attack, counter an attack should be a direct response of the constant attack of your enemies, the problem is that the enemies are TOO dumb to make a move, what forces the player hand into a more agressive playstyle that require little to no skill since all you basically do is mash the attack button.

Shahkulu101
02-09-2014, 01:42 AM
Lol@ThisEntireThread

You guys are forgetting tool counters and double tool kills. AC:3 and AC:4 weren't built upon the wait and counter scheme.

Double tool kills?

Fatal-Feit
02-09-2014, 01:58 AM
Double tool kills?

Using offensive tools to perform double kills during a kill streak. It's how the pros take down Jagers and Brutes in seconds without breaking the flow.

acbrother17
02-09-2014, 03:20 AM
I think the elite guards should be more like the Jannisaries, and the combat flow should be like AC3. The thing with AC4 is that the enemy count during combat were too small and got boring quickly after you finish off them, and if you still wanted to continue the combat, you have to go through a frustrating process to gather up guards. And this is also why they should bring back notoriety in cities and land areas.

Shahkulu101
02-09-2014, 07:19 PM
I think the elite guards should be more like the Jannisaries, and the combat flow should be like AC3. The thing with AC4 is that the enemy count during combat were too small and got boring quickly after you finish off them, and if you still wanted to continue the combat, you have to go through a frustrating process to gather up guards. And this is also why they should bring back notoriety in cities and land areas.

Taking down swarms of guards I should add would still be possible, it would just be a little tougher and more rewarding - I think it's also important to make escaping more difficuilt so as to encourage players to think more thoroughly before attacking. Is there too much guards there? Eeeshh, lotta elites in there I don't know....

Kagurra
02-09-2014, 09:58 PM
The Jagers were so boring to kill. You could only melee kill them ONE specific way.

I never knew about hidden blade kills IN combat in AC1 (yeah I know... looking back no idea how I missed it), so fighting those captains without the one shot counter was more fun.

Fatal-Feit
02-09-2014, 10:23 PM
The Jagers were so boring to kill. You could only melee kill them ONE specific way.

I never knew about hidden blade kills IN combat in AC1 (yeah I know... looking back no idea how I missed it), so fighting those captains without the one shot counter was more fun.

There are more than one... You need to read my posts, Kagura.

UKassassinsfan
02-10-2014, 04:33 AM
Although I'm not entirely sure how they could implement it, I'd love if the combat was similar to the combat in the ACR trailer, which is still my favourite trailer. If they could make that kind of fluidity, challenging but not impossible (requiring more skill that button mashing etc) then I'd be over the moon! Every fight with multiple guards would look so fluid and brutal. Using multiple tools at once in the space of seconds and using enemy attacks against themselves (I know we already have rare double counters). How good would that be though?!

Kagurra
02-10-2014, 06:13 AM
There are more than one... You need to read my posts, Kagura.

"Melee kill"

As in Counter disarm > Mash. Tools and flukes don't count. Still boring.

phoenix-force411
02-10-2014, 06:31 AM
Jagers can be killed instantly, which defeats the purpose of making them challenging.