PDA

View Full Version : BF-109F/G/K versus A6M5 Reisen?



XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:18 AM
I've often wondered what would happen if these two battled it out. Obviously, we'll get to find out with the expansion, but with all the fun tricks I'm pulling in the F4, I really wonder if the "Zeke" can handle a 109 in a serious fight? I mean, yes, the Zero is fast and agile, but it is severely hampered by its weak armor and probably doesn't climb nearly as fast. Still, it'll be fun to try it out. In 1942 - The Pacific Air War I was never able to shoot down a B-17E with the A6M2, so it'll be interesting to see if I can do any better with an A6M5 versus a B-17G! :O

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:18 AM
I've often wondered what would happen if these two battled it out. Obviously, we'll get to find out with the expansion, but with all the fun tricks I'm pulling in the F4, I really wonder if the "Zeke" can handle a 109 in a serious fight? I mean, yes, the Zero is fast and agile, but it is severely hampered by its weak armor and probably doesn't climb nearly as fast. Still, it'll be fun to try it out. In 1942 - The Pacific Air War I was never able to shoot down a B-17E with the A6M2, so it'll be interesting to see if I can do any better with an A6M5 versus a B-17G! :O

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:58 AM
ZEROs were not powerfull

light but not powerfull

1100 p to 1300 Hp is all they had

F4 v Brewster will show you the fight you asking about

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:13 AM
We gonna observe the "Zero-51 Dilemma", when the Zero comes out.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:38 AM
Depends of how favoured the Zero is versus the Me.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:48 AM
its not hard men the zero/zeke is very manuverable ,,relative to it.. the 109 is not but the 109 is fast and hard hitting and armoured,,,......BNZ to the max

U.S. infantry 84-91

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:52 AM
Japanese aircraft weren't super in any respect it was the tactics they used which made them deadly. Such as the defensive circle.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:12 AM
Akira_Koizumi wrote:
- I've often wondered what would happen if these two
- battled it out.

It will very much depend on the pilot.

- Obviously, we'll get to find out
- with the expansion, but with all the fun tricks I'm
- pulling in the F4, I really wonder if the "Zeke" can
- handle a 109 in a serious fight?

I guess the Zero is better for fun tricks, so if you are doing anything else than B&Z in your 109 you'll probably be on the recieving side of the cannons.

- I mean, yes, the
- Zero is fast and agile, but it is severely hampered
- by its weak armor and probably doesn't climb nearly
- as fast.

Actually the Zero will climb almost as good as the 109G (probably better than the 109F), it has about the same power/weight ratio. It also has a lot better low speed turning abilities.
However, it is slower, rolls worse, has less armor, dives poorly and high speed control is even worse than in a 109.

- Still, it'll be fun to try it out. In
- 1942 - The Pacific Air War I was never able to shoot
- down a B-17E with the A6M2, so it'll be interesting
- to see if I can do any better with an A6M5 versus a
- B-17G! :O

Good luck, you'll need it.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:26 AM
Ki-84 is very dangerous aircrart. Comparable to La-7 in many items.


Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Japanese aircraft weren't super in any respect it
- was the tactics they used which made them deadly.
- Such as the defensive circle.
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:31 AM
Turns like a Spit9, speed and acceleration like a La-5FN, cannons as powerful as the Hispano... mmm.. Ki-84...



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:32 AM
Great to hear from you Oleg. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Japanese aircraft were superior to even Russian aircraft in manoverability.A more interesting question would be I16 vs KI84.If thats a case I'll place my money on the KI84

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Ju87-B2-45.jpg


JU87B2 of 8/St.G77 , Smolensk Sept 1941

Stukageschwader77 soon divebombing an airbase near you.---- Visit www.stg-77.net (http://www.stg-77.net) to join StG77 ----

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:34 AM
The situation 109 vs. A6M2/5 is the same as Hellcat/Corsair vs.A6M2/5. High speeds vs. low speed maneuvreablity./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The Ki-84 isn't that tight turning wonder as the I-16 is. The Ki-84 is the answer to later US a/c, such as Corsair and Pony. Strong engine, strong weaponery, armor protection, fast.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif



Message Edited on 09/16/0310:36AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:38 AM
I'm unfamilier with most Jap planes of WWII except the Zero the Zeke, and the Tony. Funny the Tony is basically a slightly modified BF-109 with a Japanese engine and a few subtle changes.
If you drop a Japanese skin on a BF-109 though you just about can't tell a difference. Jap planes definitely weren't dog's, but from all the reports I've read, and documenteries I've watched WWII pacific pilots griped mostly about how deadly the Japanese tactics were.
Such as the flying circle. They basically flew round in round in a circle at high altitude following one another. You couldn't get behind one for a shot because it meant giving a shot to the one behind them on you.
Trying to dive down through them would just bring some of them to get you as you come down on them. Definitely trying to come up underneath was bad also.
We pretty much hit them and broke off kind of like attacking a bomber. Then after a bit of that depending on their discipline they would start to break off. Basically tease them into a dogfight.

By no means poor aircraft however the Japanese were hurting in resources and most of their aircraft after the first part went down in quality. Also most Japanese pilots would intentionally rid their planes of any excess weight to an extreme extent. Which is also why they asked for little to no armor in their aircraft.

I could be off in some aspect but thats about all I've gotten what I've read, and watched on Discovery wings. It was two pilots from the infamous Black Sheep squadron who were talking about the defensive circle tactic. They really seemed to have an extreme displeasure for it.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:50 AM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- Ki-84 is very dangerous aircrart. Comparable to La-7
- in many items.
-
-
-

Since the Pony had a relatively easy time vs the "Frank", this means the Pony should have no trouble vs the La-7./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hope the Ki-84 is modelled using Japanese fuel and not American fuel(only way it did more than 400mph).


http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:01 AM
- Since the Pony had a relatively easy time vs the
- "Frank", this means the Pony should have no trouble
- vs the La-7.

I read some different stuff about the appear of the Ki-84. BTW the Ki-84 still ran ca.392mph with Japanese fuel. After war tests (1947) in the US, with modified engine for using higher US octane standard enabled the Hayate for a vmax of ca.418mph.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif



Message Edited on 09/16/0311:03AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:10 AM
That 'flying circle' sounds awfully like a British Luftberry Circle - a tactic easily overcome by LW counter-tactics in 1942, especially in the North African front. Records of Hans-Joachim Marseille's fights specifically mentions the way he dealt with such defensive tactics, which other pilots quickly learned too.

However, as I like to say, the ability to turn, is the first and foremost advantage of fighter combat, and it is not to be dealt lightly. Dictating the fight to one's terms always sounds good and cool, but when it gets to the bottom line, just dictating the fight means nothing when the results don't pay off. You fight to win, not to end in a stale-mate.

In a 1vs1 situation, a competent pilot in a very slow but superbly maneuvering plane can dance all day with the late-war monster plane. He may have almost no hope of shooting down the faster plane, but his maneuverability often allows him to slip out of the superior plane's reach at all times, rendering the fight to a grudging stale-mate where the faster plane has no safe margin of E left, and has no choice but to run away since the enemy won't obviously engage a more maneuverable plane in an all-out dogfight.

When flying in MP games, people, while it may not be always consciously, know this fact by heart. The most common way the late-war monster planes deal with the early-war slow planes is just ignoring them completely. But when somebody actually tries to engage, and fight one to the death, he'll soon realize a competent enemy who has superior maneuverability can be no slouch! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif It is often horribly frustrating and tricky, and one will soon realize that he needs crack-shot gunnery qualities to actually dispose of a slippery turning plane.

Ofcourse, that's in case of 1vs1. Usually the slow planes end up surrounded and outnumbered, and will be forced down sooner or later. But in a 1vs1 battle, good maneuverability is sometimes a terrifying trait an enemy plane can have.

And if the speed is also reasonably good.. as with the Ki-84... then that's a GREAT fighter!


-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:21 AM
I don't know why you people never face facts.SABURO SAKAI said and many other that the ZERO was the best plane in the world at that time(1941).And it also lasted until 1945 however it was a second rated fighter after 1943.No Brewster,P39,P40 and bf109 didn't stand a chance.Ofcourse it had crappy armor,but it's speed,range and manuverability were superior for a long time.And those are facts.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:22 AM
US pilots learned to deal with the tactic as well. Tactics are what starts the fight. Then you take luck, training, and experience stir it all together, and hope to come out alive.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:30 AM
KURIBAYASHI wrote:
- I don't know why you people never face facts.SABURO
- SAKAI said and many other that the ZERO was the best
- plane in the world at that time
-

Oh, ok. If SABURO SAKAI says so I'm willing to believe it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

lol/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:33 AM
Saburo Sakai? Thats not the same super human Japanese air ace who claimed 36 Corsair kills at a period in time when only 32 Corsairs were in the Pacific was it?

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:32 PM
KURIBAYASHI wrote:
- I don't know why you people never face facts.SABURO
- SAKAI said and many other that the ZERO was the best
- plane in the world at that time(1941).And it also
- lasted until 1945 however it was a second rated
- fighter after 1943.No Brewster,P39,P40 and bf109
- didn't stand a chance.Ofcourse it had crappy
- armor,but it's speed,range and manuverability were
- superior for a long time.And those are facts.


The fact that the last Zero of 44, that saw large scale service - the A6M5c HEI, was still slower than a common Bf109E-4/7 of 1940?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The Zeros superior maneuverability was completly lost at higher speeds of more than 280mph. There were many Japanese fighter which were much better than the Zero, which became outclassed by the Hellcat and Cors. That the JNAF kept the Zero in frontline duty after 1943 was not a question of willing but of lacking sources./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:44 PM
Zero vs 109 will not be much diferent than the I16 vs 109 now IMHO. Both I16 & A6m5 have excellant turn & handle well at low speed. The Zero should be a joy to fly so i am looking forward to it but it will only be successful if the 109 pilot gets sucked into a low speed dogfight.

Now the Ki 84 -with shichever gas should be a great all around dogfighter.

If you are talking about using it in online dogfights I don't see anything wrong with it using amercan high octane gas- this just shows what the design was capable of minus the production problems that plagued Japanese industry.
But the arguments for the historical performanc are also good & will i think carry the day. Being slightly slower will allow allied/German planes to scoot away, but their pilots will still have to be very energy conscious.


http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:54 PM
No Hopperfly22, the Ki61 has nothing in common with the 109 other than it shares the same engine.

This was a typical wartime reaction to the Japanese aircraft designs, they had to be copies because the orientals could only duplicate western designs could'nt they?

The Ki61 plan does not fit the 109 at all.

It's still common to read crap about the I16 being derived from the GeeBee, as if a thick wing, with retracts and a big wing at that, could be related to the GeeBee!!

Oh yes they both have a big engine on a small airframe so they must have copied the GeeBee.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:55 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Since the Pony had a relatively easy time vs the
- "Frank", this means the Pony should have no trouble
- vs the La-7

Easy time? Hmm might want to actually read some info before you post.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:17 PM
I still would have liked to have seen the KI-44 "George" in the game (four 20mms /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) But the KI-84 is still a very good aircraft. But I have a special place in my heart for that tinderbox, the Reisen. Funny thing was, in 1942 - PAW I got shot down by SBD's more often than B-17's. Meanwhile I seemed to always come home in shotup Wildcats and never once lost an engine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:55 PM
KURIBAYASHI wrote:
- I don't know why you people never face facts.SABURO
- SAKAI said and many other that the ZERO was the best
- plane in the world at that time(1941).And it also
- lasted until 1945 however it was a second rated
- fighter after 1943.No Brewster,P39,P40 and bf109
- didn't stand a chance.Ofcourse it had crappy
- armor,but it's speed,range and manuverability were
- superior for a long time.And those are facts.
-
-

Here is what Sakai had to say when interviewed:

"(On the Zero)
During the war, I was convinced the Zero Model 21 was the best fighter plane anywhere. It was always number one with me. Then a few years ago, at Champlin, I had the chance to fly in a Mustang and take the controls for a while. What an incredible plane! It could do anything the Zero could, and many things the Zero can't, like a high-speed, spiraling dive. In the Zero, the stick would be too heavy to control the plane at those speeds. The Mustang's number one with me now, and I'm afraid the Zero's number two!"

(On the Zero's maneuverability)
Oh yes, the Zero was incredibly maneuverable, but not over about 250 mph. Above that speed, the stick just gets too heavy because the plane's control surfaces are so huge. You've seen those films of kamikaze plunging straight down into the water far from any U.S. ships, right? The kids in those planes probably put their planes into a dive way too early, and before they realized their mistake, they had too much speed built up to pull out of their dive. They probably died pulling desperately on the stick with all their strength. When I coached those kids [kamikaze pilots], I'd tell them, "If you've gotta die, you at least want to hit your target, right? If so, then go in low, skimming the water. Don't dive on your target. You lose control in a dive. You risk getting picked off by a fighter, but you've got better chance of hitting your target."

http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:48 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Saburo Sakai? Thats not the same super human
- Japanese air ace who claimed 36 Corsair kills at a
- period in time when only 32 Corsairs were in the
- Pacific was it?
-
-

I suggest that you read THE SAMURAI.Saburo Sakai wrote it and you will see that he didn't claim 36 Crosair kills.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:56 PM
Akira_Koizumi wrote:
- I still would have liked to have seen the KI-44
- "George" in the game (four 20mms

The "George' is not the Ki-44. The "George" is the Kawanishi N1K2 'Shinden'. The Nakijima Ki-44 'Shoki' was the "Tojo".



http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:06 PM
MetalGear_ wrote:
-
- MiloMorai wrote:
--
-- Since the Pony had a relatively easy time vs the
-- "Frank", this means the Pony should have no trouble
-- vs the La-7
-
- Easy time? Hmm might want to actually read some info
- before you post.
-
-

Hmmm, you might want to increase your reading skills before you make another comment./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Noticee the word >>RELATIVELY<< before the word >>easy<<./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .



http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:01 PM
relative to what? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:22 PM
Milo,

The Ki-44 Tojo is the Rodney Dangerfield of WW2 Japanese fighters - it never gets any respect or attention. And it actually was a pretty effective a/c over Rabaul from what I have read.

Would also like to see the Ki-100, which was the late war radial engine modification of the original Ki-61 Hien. R J Francillon credits this a/c also as a pretty good fighter.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:29 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Saburo Sakai? Thats not the same super human
- Japanese air ace who claimed 36 Corsair kills at a
- period in time when only 32 Corsairs were in the
- Pacific was it?
-

Sakai didn't claim ANY Corsair, his claims included :

- 2 I-16 over China
- 1 I-15 over China
- 1 SB over China
- 12 P-40s
- 11 B-17s (including 6 shared)
- 2 unidentified twin-engined aircrafts (maybe Nederlands' Glenn Martin 139 WH-3s).
- 1 Fokker C-Xiw
- 3 P-36 (indentification mistakes, most probably P-40s).
- 1 Buffalo
- 22 P-39s (+ 2 more probables)
- 10 B-25s (including 4 shared)
- 2 B-26s
- 1 Hudson (shared)
- 2 SBDs
- 1 F4F-4 (pilot : Pug Southerland).
- 5 F6Fs

Unlike many japanese aces, Sakai's claims seem relatively accurate, as most can be verified in allied documents.

e.g. : - the B-17 on the 10/12/1941 is confirmed.
- the Wildcat on the 07/08/1942 can be confirmed.
- of the 2 B-26s claimed on the 09/06/1942, one was actually shot down, the other (on board of which was the future US president Lyndon Johnson) was only damaged.
- of the 6 B-25s claimed on the 25/05/1942, 5 were actually shot down.

...and so on, I won't continue, it would begin to seem boring.

All these kills were scored on the Zero except the first two (a I-16 and the SB) scored on the A5M ("Claude" for the americans).

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:36 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Since the Pony had a relatively easy time vs the
- "Frank", this means the Pony should have no trouble
- vs the La-7

Any aircraft flown by well trained pilots (as the americans by late-1944-1945, at the time of the Pony's combats against the Franks) would have had a "relatively easy time" against one flown by almost untrained pilots, some of whom were only children.

The Pony will be better than the La-7 above something like 5000 meters, and below that the winner will be the La-7.

Look at the respective performances of these aircrafts, it's obvious one is designed for low level combat and extremely dangerous in these, and the other is designed for high level fight and is as dangerous there as the La-7 is down low.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:45 PM
Saburo Sakai once said that if the Germans had the Zero there may not be an England today.

I guess when you look at that Statement you have to look at the performance of the Zero compared to the 109, and there are some glaring differences.

The Zero was highly manouverable more so than the Hurricane and had extreme long Range.

One could Imagine Fighter command still being able to intercept the Bombers ok with Radar, but the Zero could have Nullified the Royal airforce within a week because of the short range of the British fighters the Spitfire and the Hurricane.

Saburo Sakai also mentioned that because of the Zeros extreme long range ( even on the earliest models) you where not under so much stress worrying about your fuel running low and having to disengage from the fight and return home.

The Zero would be fighting aircraft that where trying to disengage and return home, the Zero would have destroyed most of fighter Command fighters as they tried to land low on fuel.
They would have been able to range all over Britain no RAF airbase would have been out of their range.
They could have Eliminated Fighter Command completley in a very short time.
The Zero had such a long Range they could have probably set up standing patrols over RAF Airbases to ensure those bases could not be used.

In regards to the Zeros self sealing Fuel tank problems, you first have to be able to draw a bead on the Zero and the later model Zeros had self sealing fuel tanks anyway.

S!



Message Edited on 09/16/0308:47PM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:11 PM
the A6M5 had a "rudiment" of "armor" with self-sealing fuel tanks, and stratified glas armor for the rear cockpit.
Something created more for "delaying pilot's death, rather than save his life.
Imagine a A6M5 with a BMW801 engine!! Now that would be cool.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:27 PM
Artic_Wulf wrote:
- Saburo Sakai once said that if the Germans had the
- Zero there may not be an England today.


wow , thats an claim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
maybe true, maybe not.
you know the story of an german ace :
herman goering asked him, what he and his pilots need to destroy the RAF , he said, "ein geschwader spitfire" ./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
maybe he had no clue about the Zero /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:39 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- The situation 109 vs. A6M2/5 is the same as
- Hellcat/Corsair vs.A6M2/5. High speeds vs. low speed
- maneuvreablity./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- The Ki-84 isn't that tight turning wonder as the
- I-16 is. The Ki-84 is the answer to later US a/c,
- such as Corsair and Pony. Strong engine, strong
- weaponery, armor protection, fast

Totally agree.
The 109 would easily dominate the zero in my opinion much like it dominated on the Eastern front early using correct tactics and in the desert against inferior but hard manouvring hurris and P-40s.
The Ki-84 represented a change of policy for the Japs who suddenly realised that their preference to manouvrability at all costs might have been mistaken.
It was excellent in most anything but build quality.
After the first combats the rot would set in with many accidents(like landing gear snapping as a result of pure heat treattment etc.).
Such things like frame build quality etc don't come to play here so I expect the Ki-84 to be formidable in terms of performance.


<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:39 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- The "George' is not the Ki-44. The "George" is the
- Kawanishi N1K2 'Shinden'. The Nakijima Ki-44 'Shoki'
- was the "Tojo

Milo, for clarification of japanese names on a/c's

SHINDEN - (J7W)

http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W/J7W-5s.jpg


SHIDEN - (N1K1-J)

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W/N1K-7.jpg



SHIDEN - KAI (N1K2-J)

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W/N1K-15.jpg



KYOFU - (N1K1)

http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W/Rex-2s.jpg





"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif



Message Edited on 09/16/0311:10PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:48 AM
Hey KIMURA, we're gonna get Japanese planes, aren't we!!!

Hee hee hee hee hee hee.

I'm looking forward to the Ki-84 more than the Mustang!



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:11 AM
When the A6M2 came on the scene in the Pacific circa 1939-1940, there wasn't an allied aircraft in the sky that could match it's efficient performance. Compared it to what was available at the time(P-36,P39,P40,F3F Buffalo,). Even later US Planes that fought it(P-38's,F6F's,F4U's,P-51's) only outpowered and outran it; we never created an aircraft that could turn with the Zeke on its own terms. And the comments about Japanese tactics being the reason for their dominance, I believe, are a little bit backwards. Exploitation of rigid Japanese formation tactics, whether by Claire Chenaults P-40 equipped Flying Tigers diving slash(BnZ) attacks, or USN F4F co-operative techniques such as the "Thatch Weave" were the reasons we were able to deal with them until better a/c were available. That and the fact our planes could take so much more damage than theirs.
But in a 1 on 1 down low at lower speeds, it was definatly an opponent you'd better respect, no matter what kind of plane u were flying, or you might pay a cost. (As some late war pilots still did). So please, give this a/c some respect.

But don't get me wrong, the Zero had a price to pay for its performance, and that was in armour protection. US pilots called them "paper planes", as it took so little relative damage to set ablaze and explode. This makes me have to doubt Sakai's claim about them dominating The Battle of Britain; whatever advantage gained in turn and range performance would be nullified by the sturdy Hurri's and Spit's weaponry, which would have been even more effective. (Plus even if the Zeke gave an edge, I believe the British would have outsmarted them again, which is how they really won in the first place.)

As far as FB is concerned, I can't see how Zero will make much an impression outside of very early war servers; it'll be like IP-153, I16 and B-239's with better climbs but worse DM's(if modeled accuratly). But at the same time, I can't see P-51's having a great impact either especially if: a) 51's FM modeled to RL comparbly to P-47 and RL, b) .50 cals remain woefully undermodeled, as in this case 51 has 6, but carried large amount on incendiary rounds, vastly increasing lethality. But I think Ki-84 will shock a lot of people if anything like AirWarrior; in the right hands it'll be a handfull and not "easy" to deal with.

"Remember, that's war. We're all in one boat. He who thinks only of himself will destroy himself too. Such selfishness will not be tolerated!"


Kambei Shimada, Seven Samurai

http://www.filmsondisc.com/images/7samurai4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:25 AM
I'm not very knowledgeable regarding Japanese craft of any make, so I'm real curious to check some out.

All I know about the Zero is that it was very maneuverable, but had a pretty terrible roll rate- a maximum of something like 55 degrees per second. Just imagine the P-47D in FB 1.0 and there you go.

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:40 AM
Ya, ya Kimura. I included an 'n' when I should not have, me bad./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Thanks for the correction./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

typos do happen./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:47 AM
Ki-44 George??? NOT, is Ki-44 Shoki or Tojo in allied code name, N1K2 & K2-J shiden ***** the correct allied name George, and for the Ki-61, they(allied) code it that way because it looks like more like a C.202 than a 109,best regards



Veltro 25
Akira_Koizumi wrote:
- I still would have liked to have seen the KI-44
- "George" in the game (four 20mms /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) But the KI-84 is still a
- very good aircraft. But I have a special place in
- my heart for that tinderbox, the Reisen. Funny
- thing was, in 1942 - PAW I got shot down by SBD's
- more often than B-17's. Meanwhile I seemed to
- always come home in shotup Wildcats and never once
- lost an engine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:53 AM
Here's some specs from R. Francillon on the Ki-84:

Description: single-seat fighter and fighter-bomber. All metal contruction with fabric-covered control surfaces (Ki-84-I). Wood rear fuselage section, wingtips and control rods (Ki-84-II). Carbon steel ribs, bulkheads and cockpit section, and steel sheet skinning (Ki-113). All wood construction (Ki-106).

Accomodation: Pilot in enclosed cockpit.

Powerplant: one 1,900 hp Army Type 4 18 cylinder air-cooled radial (Nakajima Ha-45) driving a constant-speed 4 blade propeller.

The following engine models were used - takeoff hp/(wep mode):
Ha-45 11 - 1,800hp /(1,650hp @ 2,000m) Ki-84, Ki-84I
Ha-45 12 - 1,825hp /(1,670hp @ 2,400m) Ki84-I
Ha-45 21 - 1,990hp /(1,856hp @ 1,750m) Ki-84, 84-I, 106, 113
Ha-45 23 - 1,900hp /(1,670hp @ 1,440m) Ki-84-I, 84-II
Ha-45 25 - 2,000hp /(1,700hp @ 6,000m) Ki-84-II

Armament: 2 fuselage mounted 12.7mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns and 2 wing mounted 20mm Ho-5 cannon.

Dimensions and performance (Ki-84-I/II only)

Span - 11.238m (36ft, 10 7/16 in)
length - 9.92m (32ft, 6 9/16 in)
height - 3.385m (11ft, 1 1/4 in)
wing area - 21 sq m (226.041 sq ft)
weight (empty) - 2,660kg (5,864 lbs)
weight (loaded) - 3,613kg (7,955 lbs)
maximum weight - 3,890kg (8,575 lbs)
wingloading - 172kg/sq m (35.1 lb/sq ft)
power loading - 1.8kg/hp (4 lb/hp)

max speed - 631km/h @ 6,120m (392 mph @ 20,080 ft)
cruising speed - 445km/h (277 mph)
climb to - 5,000m in 5 min 54 sec (16,405 ft)
service ceiling - 10,500m (34,450 ft)
range - 1,695km (1,053 miles)
maximum range - 2,168km (1,347 miles)

(I have performance data on the Ki-106, 113 and 116 as well but these were minor types that did not perform as a well as the Ki-84, I or II. And I didn't feel like typing it.)


Production:

Nakajima Hikoki K.K at Ota and Utsonomiya:
2 Ki-84 prototypes (March-June 1943)
83 Ki-84 Service trial aircraft (Auf 1943-March 1944)
42 Ki-84 pre-production aircraft (Apr-June 1944)
3,288 Ki-84-I and Ki-84-II production aircraft (Apr 1944-Aug 1945)

Mansyu Hikoki Seizo K.K. at Harbin:
94 Ki-84-I productionm aircraft (1945)

Units allocated:
1st, 11th, 13th, 14th, 20th, 22nd, 25th, 29th, 47th, 50th, 51st, 52nd, 64th, 71st, 72nd, 73rd, 85th, 101st, 102nd, 103rd, 104th, 111th, 200th, and 246th Sentais; 24th Dokuritsu Dai Shijugo Chutai

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:11 AM
Problem is Chenault's group encountered Ki-43s in Burma not Zekes.

The Ki'84 will be like a Japanese Dora,it will dominate at medium altitudes but it might suffer above 7km. So the ponies in theory will be safe at higher alts. At lower alts I wouldn{t recommend the pony to try to turn inside the 84s,it´ll turn worse than a Ki-43/44 but it will turn considerably better than any American fighter aircraft deployed in the PAC.

Sakai did claim he shot down many P39s P40s some B17s and B24s although he had a hard time bringing those down. The other too he said had a problem of catching fire rather quickly.

Glasses-"I may have four eyes but you only have one wing"

"Kurt Tank is your daddy"

Message Edited on 09/17/0303:48AM by Glassess

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:20 AM
nicli wrote:
-
Woww, that's a great post I've not seen Sakai's victories listed before & was surprised that so many have been confirmed by allied records. American planes often made it home when Japanese pilots thought they wouldn't .

BTW, I took my nick name because I went to try EAW online for the 1st time & needed a call sign. Whatever I thought of 1st was taken & then i looked over & sa my book on Saburo Sakai, (& I spent a fair amount of time in Japan). It seems Saburo was taken so I just added a zero. so to speak.

I think the Zero, along with the Yak 3 & Spit (& I16/I153) is going to be one of the most fun planes to fly!
I am greatful Oleg & team are making a FM for it. It will also burn very well down low in hte oxygen rich air but that too is life.

Actually Saki impressed me most with his position that the emperor should take responsibility for the war & all that entails. After all, he said, every single order was isued in his name.
Mr. Sakai could have just gone along with the right wing fools in Japan (Uyouku ) sp? and probably collected a tidy sum. Instead he did the honourable thing which no-one expected of him.

http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:44 AM
While I'm looking forward to the Zero to fly in online dogfights...I seriously doubt it will tip the scales and become one of those everyone wants to fly it aircraft.

The Zero A6M2 was not particularly fast (although in 1941-42 it was), very weak or no armor at all and totally unable to take hits. It was very agile and manuverable...probably had good climb and acceleration if I remember correctly. Even later models were still relatively slow for the time (La's, P51's, Corsairs, and Hellcats were quite a bit faster and more capable of high speed manuvering).

The Zero suffered from the same kind of heavy control problems that the Bf 109 suffered from...although I suspect its worse. Americans suggested that nobody fight a zero below something like 300 mph. Above that the American planes were even or better in manuverability.

And the Zero was relatively light...diving away from your opponent like a FW 190 or a P47 would do would be very hard. Infact, thats apparently what many P40 pilots did...attack and dive away...

The Frank on the other hand is not to be underestimated. A dangerous opponent to the Corsairs, P51's, and probably La-7's as well. It was not fielded in high numbers or with particularly good pilots...so its full potential was never really felt.

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:49 AM
My favorite Japanese pilot was Sadaaki Akamatsu. Any pilot that engages a P-51 sqaudron while drunk and survives is a super pilot in my book /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Glasses-"I may have four eyes but you only have one wing"

"Kurt Tank is your daddy"

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 06:07 AM
ill say it again .......

the ZERO was not that powerfull

HP ranged from 1100 Hp to 1200 odd Hp

it will be as fast as the Brewster B-239

any BF pilot worth his salt can get away from a Brewster

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:30 AM
S! Not exactly a Bf-109 vs Zero site, but it is pretty interesting.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/p-40_vs_zero.htm
It is true that the Zero was pretty much in charge early in the war, but one was captured in mid 1942. The results of test flights pointed to the afore mentioned lack of high speed maneuverability, which was then taken advantage of.

Just more stuff to think about /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S! WOlf


"If it's uncamouflaged it's American, if it's camouflaged, it's Russian, if it's invisible, it's German!" Uffz. Johne, JG 51

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 08:47 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- Hey KIMURA, we're gonna get Japanese planes, aren't
- we!!!
-
- Hee hee hee hee hee hee.
-
- I'm looking forward to the Ki-84 more than the
- Mustang!

Me too./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif That Ki-84 is simply great and elegant, even as a radial-egine design.





"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 08:56 AM
I reckon for its time, 1937 to 1942, the Advantages the Zero had far out weighed its disadvantages.
Great manouverability extreme long Range.

Imagine spending most of the day airbourne over England in 1940 flying a Zero.( along with say 500 other Imperial Japanese Naval fighter Zeros and pilots on Loan to the Luftwaffe.
Pick a couple of RAF Bases that are close together and just cruise back and forth picking off the Spitfires and Hurricanes that are returning to base very low on fuel and out of Ammo.
Imagine being able to do that in every corner of the British Isles because of your Range.

RAF Fighter Command would have ceased to exist in a very short time indeed.



Message Edited on 09/17/0308:00AM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:37 AM
the disadvantages of the ZERO is its speed

it will be easy pickings for a whole bunch of planes due to its not being able to chase .....

ill extend & make it drop & then zoom it & extend .....

the zero wont wont be that successfull aginst a whole bunch of planes


on the other hand the KI-84 will be shall we say ...... join or die ?

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:59 PM
Hi,

I played CFS2 for a wile, the aircraft all seemed slower then here, 400ks, But the charicteristics of each aircraft were.

The Ki43 my plane /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Was really light! and have the tightest turn rate. Almost no ammo so you had to have a very good aim at close range. Like a I16 but smaller.
The Ki43, Was a little slower than the Zero but could shoot down most aircraft if they were low.

Zero

Was the middle Japanese aircraft with the feel of an FW109 or LA5. It did not have much climb power but was light so this gave it a good speed.

The Ki61

Was designed by a German and was I think based on an italian design. There were few aircraft in the pecific like this long fin BF109 type aircraft.

Ki44
Fun boom zoomer /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif this aicraft was pure boom zoom it could not turn and was extreemly fast. It also had very good armor and cannon.
Hard and scary for Japanese pilots to fly and land so just usued as an intercepter around Japan.

Ki84

This was a Hellcat. Strong and had powerfull armor and wepons like the Ki44. It is a very new aircraft and I do not think was used much.

Ki100 was a joke I do not think it even flew /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Eric

http://community.webshots.com/s/image7/7/9/9/90770909BIiUjA_ph.jpg











Message Edited on 09/17/0312:26PM by HD_Erik30023

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:15 PM
- Ki100 was a joke I do not think it even flew


The Ki-100 is maybe THAT Japanese a/c besides the Ki-84 and the Navy N1K2-J. Most JAAF Aces considered the Ki-100 as the best - along with the Ki-84 - and most effectiv of all fighters.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:15 PM
HD_Erik30023 wrote:
-
-
- The Ki61
-
- Was designed by a German and was I think based on an
- italian design. There were few aircraft in the
- pecific like this long fin BF109 type aircraft.
-

Someting tells me that Takeo Doi and Shin Owada are not German./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It was designed around the Japanese version of the DB601 engine(Ha.40).


-
- Ki100 was a joke I do not think it even flew
-

Sorry 'you is wrong'./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It was a "substantial improvement" over the Hein. The 5th, 59th, 244th, 18th, 111th, 112th regiments flew it. Experienced pilots had the edge over the F6F and it was an even match for the Pony.


http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:59 PM
Sorry I was working from memory in my last post but I got this from a site I used a long time ago.

Hien "Swallow" - Kawasaki Ki-61-Ic

<A HREF=http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/</A>graphics/ki61-plate1.jpg">


"The confusion of the Ki-61 with German and Italian fighters had some basis in the aircraft's origins. Between 1923 and 1933, Kawasaki Aircraft Engineering Company's head designer was a German named Dr. Richard Vogt, who returned to Germany in 1933 to take a similar position at the firm of Blohm und Voss during the war. Not surprisingly, Kawasaki continued to be strongly influenced by Dr. Vogt's beliefs after he left, particularly a faith in the usefulness of liquid-cooled inline engines. This made Kawasaki something of a heretic among Japanese aircraft manufacturers, who preferred air-cooled radials."

Kawasaki Ki-100-Ia/b Goshiki-Sen "Experimental Fighter"

http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/graphics/ki-100-plate1.jpg


It also says, I do not know if this was just one version but:
"Plans had been made to produce 200 fighters per month, but the Ichinomiya plant was forced to shut down in July 1945 after having built only 12 aircraft, and the Kagamigahara plant had its production severely curtailed by aerial attacks. By the time of the Japanese surrender, only 118 Ki-100-Ib aircraft had been delivered."

I should not have gone so far to say it was a joke, but there were 100s of good Japanese aicraft never built and I do not think the Ki-100 could see much service.

Click here for more information:-

http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/



Message Edited on 09/17/0302:23PM by HD_Erik30023

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:08 PM
- It also says, I do not know if this was just one
- version but:
- "Plans had been made to produce 200 fighters per
- month, but the Ichinomiya plant was forced to shut
- down in July 1945 after having built only 12
- aircraft, and the Kagamigahara plant had its
- production severely curtailed by aerial attacks. By
- the time of the Japanese surrender, only 118
- Ki-100-Ib aircraft had been delivered."


There were further 272 Ki-61-II KAI cells which became converted to Ki-100-Ia. These 118 were the 1st patch of Ki-100 which were produced as Ki-100, as Ki100-Ib.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:12 PM
Seriously, the 20mm cannon on the A6M5 was powerful, but here's a quote from Joe Foss:

"A Wildcat could take up to fifteen minutes fire from the Zero, but a Zero couldn't take three seconds fire from the Wildcat."

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
<center>On your six 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.<center>
<center>Boosher-ProudBirds-VFW<center>
http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm

http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg

<center><marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"The ProudBirds..Flying High and Proud..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:27 PM
I think the aim of a any pilot should be not to get any hits in him at all!
The German Tiger was a very hard tank but the Panzer was fast and did much better /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

By the way does any one know why I can only post one picture at a time? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Eric



Message Edited on 09/17/0302:29PM by HD_Erik30023

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:37 PM
Jung said:

"we never created an aircraft that could turn with the Zeke on its own terms"

Nor would the Americans want to. They had great success using big, tough, fast planes with good armament. Turning fights in real life would eventually get you killed. Good turning performance, in real life, was a good for defense only.

Teamwork, deflection shooting, and ability to outrun attackers were a few of the reasons the Americans kicked the crap out of the Japanese.

In online dogfights, far removed from reality, it will be a different story, since there dogfighting rules the skies (if you can call 200m off the deck the "skies").

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 07:14 AM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
-Teamwork, deflection shooting, and ability to outrun
- attackers were a few of the reasons the Americans
- kicked the crap out of the Japanese.
-


I think I pretty much said that in my post. I was only sayin that it dominated any plane not able to outclimb or outrun it.


As far Chenault's Flying Tigers shootin down only Oscars; and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't wasn't the Ki-43 very comparable in performance to the A6M2? (Even a slight advantage in climb?) Well anyway, thanks for that note, but I DO remember Chenault's tactics were designed for the Zero, even if they didn't meet any.

"Remember, that's war. We're all in one boat. He who thinks only of himself will destroy himself too. Such selfishness will not be tolerated!"


Kambei Shimada, Seven Samurai

http://www.filmsondisc.com/images/7samurai4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:15 AM
Interesting thread. Some books I have rea, including "Fire in the Sky" indicate several reasons that the Japanese were eventually and decisiviely dominated by Allied aircraft that were less maneuverable and faster. The most important were tactics and communication.

Flying in pairs and mutually protecting the vulnerable rear area was essential throughout the war and the Allies developed the most efficient method of doing so and added radio communication as standard in their fighters. The Japanese on the other hand, felt the radio was "optional" and did not usually fly in efficient formations until very late in the conflict. I doubt that these aspects will be modelled in FB.

I agree with those that say that BnZ will dominate the Zeroes as long as theeir energy remains high. The Zeroes especially were very easy to outmaneuver at high speed so the only defense a Zero has is to stay slow and maneuverable and hope to sucker others to a slow angles fight. One thing I rad a P_38 pilot said about experten Zero pilots is that even when using energy tactics, if a good Zero pilot knew you were there it was IMPOSSIBLE to shoot it down, because of it's extreme (aka UFO here) maneuverability.

Later Japanese planes like Tony may be more successfull in this sim although not in real life. In the war the newer Japanese planes were not as effective as they should have been because of high downtimes due to Japanese maintenance problems and inefficient tactics, and a growing inability to sufficiently train newer pilots properly. All of these will probably not be reflected in the SIM which will make an interesting "what if" (i.e. what if tactics, pilot training, and maintenance were equal to Allies?) in FB.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 09:39 AM
The Hien entered combat in the spring of 1943 in the New Guinea war zone, covering New Guinea, the Admiralty Islands, New Britain, and New Ireland. The new Japanese fighter caused some pain and consternation among Allied pilots, particularly when they found out the hard way that they could no longer go into a dive and escape as they had from lighter Japanese fighters. 5th Air Force Commander General George Kenney found his P-40 Warhawks completely outclassed, and begged for more P-38 Lightnings to counter the threat of the new enemy fighter.



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:18 PM
you say the zero didnt have a powerful engine?

It did not have a high top speed but had extremely good accelaration being such a light aircraft, who knows accelaration seems like it needs some major work in this game

p38 p40 and zero were 3 planes that thier accelaration was one of thier more imortant aspects even if thier top max speed made them "outdated" they were still extremely effective weapons


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:29 PM
ucanfly, great post. People seem to forget the differences between the sim & real life & expect real life results.

One thing that comes to mind about the Flying Tigers is that even after Chennault provided training on what we today call B & Z /Energy fighting, this was counter-intuitive at first. Byington still tried to out-turn the first Ki43 he ran into, because he had always been able to withstand more Gs than other pilots in his unit flying the same plane type. Quite a Noob mistake, heh ?
The American planes inferiority in some respects was responsible for the superior tactics they developed.

One thing I rad a P_38 pilot
- said about experten Zero pilots is that even when
- using energy tactics, if a good Zero pilot knew you
- were there it was IMPOSSIBLE to shoot it down,
- because of it's extreme (aka UFO here)
- maneuverability.

Now will people be happy if this is the case in FB ?

Saki in an outdate A6m5 successfully evaded an entire squadron of Navy Hellcats (with altitude advantageIIRC) for soemthing like 30 mins & made it back to base.

For teh kind of dogfighting many do online i suspect the Zero may be deadly, though the armament may be weak. I'm not sure of the quality of the 20mm s mounted in the A6m5, though the ones in the A6m2 were quite poor & only carried 60 rounds.




http://idealab.snu.ac.kr/~hobbist/La-5FN/small/La-5FN-06.jpg