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Psychobillyx
01-29-2014, 01:18 AM
I have to say after finally buying Assassin's Creed 3 and playing it.

Haytham is nothing like his father. At first when I started playing, I was like YES this is going to be a good journey. Boy was I wrong.

Come to find out Haytham is nothing but a self center, maniacal jerk off!!!

guardian_titan
01-29-2014, 02:21 AM
1.) Children =/= the parents. Children are not clones. Children are their own person and will often lash out going in the opposite direction to differentiate themselves. Twins often do the same thing to show they are 2 separate people. So comparing Edward and Haytham doesn't work like comparing Haytham to Connor. They're similar which is often the case in families, but they will never be the same. Besides, that'd get boring.

2.) Different upbringings and different experiences can change a person. Edward grew up poor and spent a number of years at sea. Haytham grew up rich and rather sheltered until he was 10 and then thrown out into the world with a Templar to raise him. His mother basically disowned him after Edward died and his sister, before Edward's death, didn't like him much, either.

3.) Edward and Haytham do bare similarities. Both can be rather brutal but both can also have a sweet side. You see Edward's tender side with Jenny and Haytham in AC4. Haytham shows his briefly to Ziio. Both can also be rather sarcastic and do have a sense of humor.

4.) Edward had a chance to raise Haytham from day 1 so had a chance to grow into being a father. He also had a wife. Haytham never married and never knew Connor existed until Connor was a grown man. By then, it wasn't really worth it for him to really try to be a father. At best, the two could have been friends ... except that falls flat.

(Read the AC3 novel Forsaken if you didn't get some of my references above or read the Wiki.)

LoyalACFan
01-29-2014, 02:28 AM
Haytham is nothing but a self center, maniacal jerk off!!!

Bit like Edward was for 90% of AC4, hmm? :rolleyes:

But I agree, the intelligent, witty, charismatic Haytham from the beginning of AC3 quickly disappeared and was replaced by a snide, violent d-bag. Same goes for Charles Lee. Still one of my sore spots about AC3; they spent so much time trying to make you like the Templars in the beginning, then we switch to Connor and they've suddenly become racist cold-blooded murderers.

guardian_titan
01-29-2014, 04:59 AM
To be fair, there's a good 10 years of Haytham's life we're missing. After 1758 around the time he killed Reginald to just prior to the Boston Massacre, all we really know is that Haytham bought an estate next to Charles's Prato Rio. Or rather, Charles bought Prato Rio next to Haytham since Charles didn't buy that until sometime in the early 1770s (found dates ranging from 1772-1776). Possible Jenny soured Haytham toward people in general and embittered him or perhaps finding out Reginald's effectively lied to him to his entire life warped him. To find out the man who effectively raised you killed your father might do a number on you. Combine that with a sister who might smack you every 5 minutes for becoming a Templar, and it's amazing Haytham was as agreeable as he was.

Then with Charles, we're missing pretty much from 1756-1760 and then 1761-1770 or so. The real one spent his time in Europe and lost 2 fingers in a duel there. He also became rather irritated at not advancing in the military after spending so many year in it. So he had a right to be bitter. Only issue I take is why was Charles seemingly racist when he married a Mohawk. That's rather questionable. Beyond that, after finding out about his family, Charles's personality shifting isn't a surprise.

Thomas Hickey and Benjamin Church are written from the start to be darker. Hickey's more into the drink and women while Church just seems greedy. Pitcairn hardly had any development so his personality shift could have been part of his character from the get go. We just saw so little of him. Johnson we saw more of, but all we saw was that he was a scholar. He also associated with Hickey. So that suggests he wasn't as goody goody as he appeared. He was possibly intended to be a nice man on the outside but had a dark inner core.

LoyalACFan
01-29-2014, 05:18 AM
To be fair, there's a good 10 years of Haytham's life we're missing. After 1758 around the time he killed Reginald to just prior to the Boston Massacre, all we really know is that Haytham bought an estate next to Charles's Prato Rio. Or rather, Charles bought Prato Rio next to Haytham since Charles didn't buy that until sometime in the early 1770s (found dates ranging from 1772-1776). Possible Jenny soured Haytham toward people in general and embittered him or perhaps finding out Reginald's effectively lied to him to his entire life warped him. To find out the man who effectively raised you killed your father might do a number on you. Combine that with a sister who might smack you every 5 minutes for becoming a Templar, and it's amazing Haytham was as agreeable as he was.

I get that Haytham had a crappy life after leaving Ziio, but narratively speaking, it causes a good deal of confusion for the player when the charming rogue we knew several hours earlier returns as a snarky, stubborn old coot who kills defenseless people on a whim. Keep in mind, nearly everyone who played AC3 did so without having read Forsaken, so the change in his character was extremely jarring since it was never explained. His death scene also had much less impact than it would have if he had remained at least somewhat agreeable. If Connor had to kill the guy we knew from the first three sequences, it would have been heartbreaking. As it was, I didn't feel bad about killing him at all, he was a total bastard.


Then with Charles, we're missing pretty much from 1756-1760 and then 1761-1770 or so. The real one spent his time in Europe and lost 2 fingers in a duel there. He also became rather irritated at not advancing in the military after spending so many year in it. So he had a right to be bitter. Only issue I take is why was Charles seemingly racist when he married a Mohawk. That's rather questionable. Beyond that, after finding out about his family, Charles's personality shifting isn't a surprise.

Being frustrated with your job isn't enough motivation to turn a cheerful dope into a sociopath who chokes little children nearly to death. Charles' transformation was even worse than Haytham's IMO.


Thomas Hickey and Benjamin Church are written from the start to be darker. Hickey's more into the drink and women while Church just seems greedy. Pitcairn hardly had any development so his personality shift could have been part of his character from the get go. We just saw so little of him. Johnson we saw more of, but all we saw was that he was a scholar. He also associated with Hickey. So that suggests he wasn't as goody goody as he appeared. He was possibly intended to be a nice man on the outside but had a dark inner core.

I actually liked those four. None of them were as dark or malicious as Haytham or Charles, and they seemed to have evolved naturally from their early characterizations. Johnson was a middleman of sorts between the settlers and Indians who became a bit too greedy for his own good, Pitcairn was a career soldier who was too hung up on military force, Church was a slippery double agent who betrayed more people than he could escape from, and Hickey remained a hedonistic but strangely personable slob. I felt kinda bad killing each one of them.

dbzk1999
01-29-2014, 07:46 AM
I get that Haytham had a crappy life after leaving Ziio, but narratively speaking, it causes a good deal of confusion for the player when the charming rogue we knew several hours earlier returns as a snarky, stubborn old coot who kills defenseless people on a whim. Keep in mind, nearly everyone who played AC3 did so without having read Forsaken, so the change in his character was extremely jarring since it was never explained. His death scene also had much less impact than it would have if he had remained at least somewhat agreeable. If Connor had to kill the guy we knew from the first three sequences, it would have been heartbreaking. As it was, I didn't feel bad about killing him at all, he was a total bastard.



Being frustrated with your job isn't enough motivation to turn a cheerful dope into a sociopath who chokes little children nearly to death. Charles' transformation was even worse than Haytham's IMO.



I actually liked those four. None of them were as dark or malicious as Haytham or Charles, and they seemed to have evolved naturally from their early characterizations. Johnson was a middleman of sorts between the settlers and Indians who became a bit too greedy for his own good, Pitcairn was a career soldier who was too hung up on military force, Church was a slippery double agent who betrayed more people than he could escape from, and Hickey remained a hedonistic but strangely personable slob. I felt kinda bad killing each one of them.

It doesn't if people had read forsaken or not they have to accept a basic thing in life things ( & people) change over the years

frodrigues55
01-29-2014, 11:07 AM
Haytham's backstory is so sad, you should check out the Forsaken novel :o Shame it was just for the book, it also gives a bit more info on Edward and his family.

I loved Haytham though. Great character, and he and Connor together gave some of the best dialogues in the series.

EaglePrince25
01-29-2014, 02:21 PM
It doesn't if people had read forsaken or not they have to accept a basic thing in life things ( & people) change over the years

It helps immensely as then there's actually a reason for why Haytham, who's already a grown man by this point, changes. In no narrative will the excuse that "People change" ever hold up.

adventurewomen
01-29-2014, 02:46 PM
To the OP, you really need to read Forsaken book, it will tell you to story behind Haytham and you'll better understand Haytham's character then.

http://www.amazon.com/Assassins-Creed-Forsaken-Oliver-Bowden/dp/0425261514

SixKeys
01-29-2014, 03:35 PM
If you're disappointed with Edward's son, wait till you meet his grandson.

lothario-da-be
01-29-2014, 03:39 PM
If you're disappointed with Edward's son, wait till you meet his grandson.
lol, this x 10

LoyalACFan
01-29-2014, 07:51 PM
It helps immensely as then there's actually a reason for why Haytham, who's already a grown man by this point, changes. In no narrative will the excuse that "People change" ever hold up.

This.

Honestly, there's no excuse for leaving stuff like that to the Forsaken novel, because 1.) it's bad storytelling and 2.) 95% of the people who play the game will never read the book, partly because it was advertised as a novelization of the game they already played. I mean, the few dozen regulars on here are presumably the most hardcore AC fans in the world to be posting about it with frequency on the Internet, and even some of them haven't read it. I, for one, haven't.

SpiritOfNevaeh
01-29-2014, 09:06 PM
This.

Honestly, there's no excuse for leaving stuff like that to the Forsaken novel, because 1.) it's bad storytelling and 2.) 95% of the people who play the game will never read the book, partly because it was advertised as a novelization of the game they already played. I mean, the few dozen regulars on here are presumably the most hardcore AC fans in the world to be posting about it with frequency on the Internet, and even some of them haven't read it. I, for one, haven't.

Agreed x 10

aL_____eX
01-29-2014, 09:38 PM
This.

Honestly, there's no excuse for leaving stuff like that to the Forsaken novel, because 1.) it's bad storytelling and 2.) 95% of the people who play the game will never read the book, partly because it was advertised as a novelization of the game they already played. I mean, the few dozen regulars on here are presumably the most hardcore AC fans in the world to be posting about it with frequency on the Internet, and even some of them haven't read it. I, for one, haven't.
Agreed. I love that there are things like novels and comics, but leaving big parts of the main story to them is just bullsh*t. I love AC and so I don't mind buying a book for 10 bucks, but people who are only playing the games are often left in the shadows and never get to know the whole thing, if they are not searching the internet for more details.

dbzk1999
01-29-2014, 09:44 PM
The only thing about tht is tht they probably didn't have it in the game cause Connor is the MAIN protagonist
I count haytham in the deuteragonist range
Anyways the novel was more on haytham because as we all know he's the main protagonist of the book
As much as I wanted them to include those sections I understand why they didn't (even though I still hate it)
Sheesh it's like Daniel cross last words that were cut

LoyalACFan
01-29-2014, 10:14 PM
The only thing about tht is tht they probably didn't have it in the game cause Connor is the MAIN protagonist
I count haytham in the deuteragonist range
Anyways the novel was more on haytham because as we all know he's the main protagonist of the book
As much as I wanted them to include those sections I understand why they didn't (even though I still hate it)
Sheesh it's like Daniel cross last words that were cut

If they weren't going to include it, they shouldn't have changed Haytham so much.

EaglePrince25
01-29-2014, 11:52 PM
If they weren't going to include it, they shouldn't have changed Haytham so much.

This, plain and simple. I understand Haytham not being the protagonist, and that the story had to focus on Connor. That being said, in such a case, you shouldn't have a major character undergo such a change if it wasn't going to be explained. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Sabuto78
01-30-2014, 04:15 AM
If you're disappointed with Edward's son, wait till you meet his grandson.
Lmfao GG.

@Topic: Haytham only became a self centered maniacal ******* after he found out his entire life was a lie..... from the point edward was killed (most pitiful way possible)

But early haytham reminded me of Edward a lot tbh. o.o

Fatal-Feit
01-30-2014, 05:58 AM
How nice would it have been to have AC:3 handle both characters. Like how they were intentionally planning to have Freedom Cry be a part of AC:IV, they should have had some of those important experiences of Haytham be included in the game during Connor's training. I mean, why not? We've already experienced 3 whole sequences of building character strength for the guy.

SpiritOfNevaeh
01-30-2014, 04:51 PM
How nice would it have been to have AC:3 handle both characters. Like how they were intentionally planning to have Freedom Cry be a part of AC:IV, they should have had some of those important experiences of Haytham be included in the game during Connor's training. I mean, why not? We've already experienced 3 whole sequences of building character strength for the guy.

That would have been awesome.

LoyalACFan
01-30-2014, 06:32 PM
How nice would it have been to have AC:3 handle both characters. Like how they were intentionally planning to have Freedom Cry be a part of AC:IV, they should have had some of those important experiences of Haytham be included in the game during Connor's training. I mean, why not? We've already experienced 3 whole sequences of building character strength for the guy.

Eh... For one, we couldn't do that in the Animus since it would be after Connor was born. But also, I wouldn't necessarily want to see what made Haytham the way he was in the later sequences (AC3 already had too many pacing problems) I'm just saying they shouldn't have changed him without explaining why.

poptartz20
02-01-2014, 06:46 AM
Haytham I think by far was one of the most well written characters of the entire series. and very complex.

But at first while playing the game I couldn't see how Haytham was like his father but by the end of the game I did see it. and I saw Connor too.

GAHH... I could go on a fangirl rant about him just like I do Connor. Lol. Oh those Kenways. </3 never meant to have happiness for long. :(

Fatal-Feit
02-01-2014, 07:36 AM
Eh... For one, we couldn't do that in the Animus since it would be after Connor was born. But also, I wouldn't necessarily want to see what made Haytham the way he was in the later sequences (AC3 already had too many pacing problems) I'm just saying they shouldn't have changed him without explaining why.

They could have used 16 sequences or something. It sucks that they keep limiting to 12 sequences. This ain't no FPS, Ubs.

But really though, I wouldn't have mind. It could have helped character development and pacing if you think about it. Connor's training did escalate after all. Cutting to occasional Haytham sequences per training wouldn't hurt. Although it probably just sounds better in my head. :p

Leo_2301
11-09-2014, 01:34 PM
Personally, I pretty much dislike Haytham. According to me, he is one of the worst characters of the series, though he is important to the storylines of AC3 and ACRG. Haytham never liked his father, this can be explained, Haytham never left the Templar Order, even after he knew that they were the ones who killed his father, Haytham mocks his father during a fight with Adewale in Rogue, and used his father's fighting skills and tactics against the Assassin Brotherhood. And he was never a good father too, and Haytham would not have avenged his father's death if it wasn't for Jennifer. :mad:

Also, Haytham is an ungrateful jerk, and also kills innocents after interrogating. He has a dull London-ish accent and long boring dialogue lines. The only good thing about Haytham is that, despite being the Grand Master, he still does field work, unlike Laureano Torres. :D

OpticSpecs
11-09-2014, 01:56 PM
I find Haytham to be like Captain Barbosa from pirates of the caribbean.

SenseHomunculus
11-09-2014, 03:03 PM
Personally, I pretty much dislike Haytham. According to me, he is one of the worst characters of the series, though he is important to the storylines of AC3 and ACRG. Haytham never liked his father, this can be explained, Haytham never left the Templar Order, even after he knew that they were the ones who killed his father, Haytham mocks his father during a fight with Adewale in Rogue, and used his father's fighting skills and tactics against the Assassin Brotherhood. And he was never a good father too, and Haytham would not have avenged his father's death if it wasn't for Jennifer. :mad:

Also, Haytham is an ungrateful jerk, and also kills innocents after interrogating. He has a dull London-ish accent and long boring dialogue lines. The only good thing about Haytham is that, despite being the Grand Master, he still does field work, unlike Laureano Torres. :D

"worst character" in terms of poorly executed story-wise or in terms of being a really, REALLY bad guy? You have SUCH strong emotions toward Haytham, it seems to be that he was obviously very well fleshed-out in your mind by the writers.

Angelus808
11-09-2014, 03:39 PM
well, you do have to read the Forsaken novel.

Mostly show why he is so bitter & serious. And his growing up was not to have feelings for anyone after he was taken in by Birch. At that point in AC3, he was still talking to Birch at the start. but with the "missing years"in the game which is in the novel shows that after his travel to the US and back to England.

He did try to unite both of the Orders but having to be grown up with the idea of the Templar since 10 years old

so ya, He is one of those kind of guys that have a hard time showing his feels.



In all instances, Haytham was distinguished from both his father and his son by having a natural aristocratic bearing, speaking in an elegant London accent different from that of his compatriots, and from his father and son respectively.
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Haytham_Kenway


One live in the Sea, One live in the Woods and One live in London.... XD What can you expand from a high class dude...