PDA

View Full Version : AC improvements: casual and hardcore solution.



Hans684
01-04-2014, 06:22 PM
This idea i got when/during MnemonicSyntax and AssassinHMS started their never ending battle for the "good" and "bad" of AC. My ideas is simple an upgrade system for both the skills and the protagonist and some ideas for the world.

Skills:
1) You start the game with only the abilitiy to attack and defend.
2) You have to train in a training area like AC1 and AC2 to gett more skills.(like one-counter-kill, chain-kill etc.)
3) The skill sets unlock trough the story.
4) For the casual players the ability to chain-kill and counter can be learned after completing sequence 1(intro).
5) You don't have to learn every skill for full sync.
6) You can also train to gett stealth skills like using enemy clothing, light/shadow stealth etc.
7) Meaning at the end of the day You make your of difficulty, so complains of it being easy is irrelevant.


World:
1) The guards have the same skill(more or less) as you when every skill is learned.
2) For the hardcore there is a moral/reaction system(some idea someone had a while a go) that react to what you do.
3) There are hunters(former assassins/templars agents) in the game that obviously hunt you, they have even more skill then you even when fully upgraded. You can't just fight them head on, you have to use navigation, stealth & combat to kill one.

The Protagonist:
1) The upgrade system works like the one in ACIVBF/FC3.
2) You have to upgrade each health bar one at the time.
3) You start the game with very low health and bad weapons.
4) Upgrades unlock trough the story.
5) You can upgrade the limit of weapons/ammo to carry.(if you don't want guns, then upgrade a holster for bow and arrow, crossbow, blowpipe or nothing at all)
6) You don't have to be fully upgraded for full sunc.
7) You can upgrade some weapons(more damage to the hidden blades or from original hidden blades to chain-blade, pivot blade or add hook blade)
7) Meaning at the end of the day You make your own difficulty, so complains about having to much weapons weapons and/or to much overpowerd weapons is irrelevant.

Story:

Some fresh ideas.

1) An AC where we only play a templar.

2) An AC in the time of the Fist Civ. With POE hidden bladdes that turn people to dust/ash.

3) An AC where the assassins are shown in a "bad" light(like the Borgia family) and the templars the "good" light(like Godzio...I mean Ezio).

4) An AC where we play a templar turning assassin.

5) An AC where we play an assassin turning templar.

6) An AC where we play a corrupt assassin mentor leading a corrupt assassin order.

7) An AC where we play a rogue assassin.

8) An AC where we play an rogue templar.

9) An AC where we assassin sage.

10) An AC where we play an a templar sage.

11) A modern day AC(think Hitman, Splinter Cell(before conviction), Watch_Dogs etc).

12) An AC where we play a double agent.

What do you think, i tried to make it as simple and "good" as possible becouse that the way Ubisoft seems to do. Did i miss something? Or is it something that should be changed or added?

pirate1802
01-06-2014, 01:54 PM
Just forget what is casual and what is hardcore. Put you heart in one place and try to make the best game you possibly can. When you try to please everyone you invariably end up pleasing no one. And it is fiutile. You cant make everyone happy, people are gonna whine regardless.

aL_____eX
01-06-2014, 02:43 PM
Although I really like most of your ideas, I believe this is too much "if" and "when" for one game. Ubisoft would have to make anything optional so that everyone is good with the game. That wouldn't work, like pirate said before.

I hope they don't change combat to much in the next games. I like that we can kill 20 guards in a row if we want to. And we can run away if we want to. AC was never about being a difficult and challenging game in terms of combat. It's more the feeling AC gives my, the environment, the cities, the story that always made me buy this game.
I agree with you, that some improvements especially for AI would be great, but I like the upgrade system how it is, best point you mentioned is, that there should be in-story tutorials (in missions) again, where you learn different types of stealth, combat moves etc. I know they are present in all games, but I would like to see more... Ah, I don't have the words to describe it. :nonchalance: This is my personal wish: More ways for being stealthy.

aL_____eX
01-06-2014, 03:04 PM
What I tried to say is, combat itself feels pretty good and smooth since ACIII, but I'd love to see some of the upgrade things you mentioned. Although I like the fact of being a nearly unbeatable fighter, some upgrade moves, killing animations etc. throughout the story would be great.

Very nice thoughts! :) We'll see if Ubi implements any of them in coming games...

Hans684
01-06-2014, 05:46 PM
What I tried to say is, combat itself feels pretty good and smooth since ACIII, but I'd love to see some of the upgrade things you mentioned. Although I like the fact of being a nearly unbeatable fighter, some upgrade moves, killing animations etc. throughout the story would be great.

Very nice thoughts! :) We'll see if Ubi implements any of them in coming games...

Yes, but the thing is a "self made game"(game with options) can solve a lot more than a limited game(depending on the game series, etc...) and please as much as possible. Look at gaming and fans as a puzzle or riddle. I agree the flow of the combat itself is better since AC3. The fact that you like being unbeatable is something i highly respect, but some play for challenge.


Although I really like most of your ideas, I believe this is too much "if" and "when" for one game. Ubisoft would have to make anything optional so that everyone is good with the game. That wouldn't work, like pirate said before.

I hope they don't change combat to much in the next games. I like that we can kill 20 guards in a row if we want to. And we can run away if we want to. AC was never about being a difficult and challenging game in terms of combat. It's more the feeling AC gives my, the environment, the cities, the story that always made me buy this game.
I agree with you, that some improvements especially for AI would be great, but I like the upgrade system how it is, best point you mentioned is, that there should be in-story tutorials (in missions) again, where you learn different types of stealth, combat moves etc. I know they are present in all games, but I would like to see more... Ah, I don't have the words to describe it. :nonchalance: This is my personal wish: More ways for being stealthy.

It can work, you have to try before saying anything. If it fails, then it's time for new ideas that might work better. It's how things progress, like the first rocket to the moon. They tried again and again until it worked, the same can be said about everything else too. I respect the you like being a one-man-army, it's great but that's the point of having the upgrades. After the intro you can learn every major combat skill(one-counter kill, chain-kill etc..) that makes you the one-man-army. Or you start the game with all skills and you can take away those you don't want(uotgrade system), see? A puzzle/riddle, there is always a way if you don't give up. Obviously there is not going to be that much "if" and "when" per game, it's just an example.

I know AC is not a difficulty/challenge game but i can be both relax or difficulty/challenge game with this idea, not this idea alone. If Ubisoft uses it and it fails, then i will try again. I know environment, story, open world makes the game. Personally i love tropical places(lives in cold Norway) and ACIVBF has [IMO] the bast looking/feeling world to date.


Just forget what is casual and what is hardcore. Put you heart in one place and try to make the best game you possibly can. When you try to please everyone you invariably end up pleasing no one. And it is fiutile. You cant make everyone happy, people are gonna whine regardless.

I did putt my heart in this idea, "casual" and "hardcore" is just titles. My place is with a "self made game"(game with options), look at it like Fallout but instead of choose ing how to look, what to be called and where the story goes. You instead chooses where the game itself goes, you make your game either it is the current version of AC, AC1 version or AssassinHMS version etc.. Is all up to you, the upgrades are there for you(the player). It is possible to make such a game, but i know there will always be people complaing. It's something bound to happen no matter what one do.

LionHeart XXII
01-06-2014, 06:14 PM
Sounds like you really want an Assassin's Creed RPG type game. I'm not going to lie, that would be amazing! If we could basically create our own assassin and then improve him/her from the ground up, much like you have said we would have an amazing game. I would love to be able to decide what weapons and fighting style our assassin would utilize, what kind of robes to wear etc. But unfortunately I don't think this will happen anytime soon, Ubisoft likes to create the character and tell a specific story within a specific universe using specific in world reasons for that to make sense. Think about it, if you are reliving your ancestors memory then it doesn't make much sense for you to be able to totally customize all the different aspects you we would want as they would have already used and mastered a, once again, specific combat style. And, whether you like it or not the animus is an important aspect to the series. Thus, where as I would love to have all the things you pointed out, and build our Assassin's Creed game how we want, unless Ubisoft changes some of the ways they make these games, I don't see how that could happen

AssassinHMS
01-06-2014, 06:23 PM
Iím all for freedom of choice in games but sometimes it gets in the way of the actual game development.
For example, I hear many people saying they like the casual combat (which isnít even combat but thatís another story), but what about the consequences of this complete lack of challenge?
Itís not just that some people like challenge, challenge is required for a good game development.

Letís take ACís core mechanics for instance. One thing is clear, they have to be balanced. You canít just make combat difficult and stealth easy or the opposite, or else you defeat the purpose of multiple choice (why make a huge effort to use stealth when I can defeat everyone with ease?). The core mechanics are currently far from balanced with combat being this overpowered system that defeats any purpose of using stealth (except for those who play stealthy for the sake of doing it). However, both stealth and combat are still, more or less, accessible. I mean, the blowpipe makes stealth almost as easy as squashing ants (ACís combat), so theyíre pretty balanced.
What I mean is that the core mechanics have to be somewhat balanced for the game to work.


Now, letís say you want to improve the overall stealth (which AC desperately needs). Where do you start? By improving the enemy AI. But, by improving the AI, youíre getting rid of the super dumb enemies (the ones in AC4 BF). Problem is, what makes stealth both easy and accessible in AC4, is the dumb AI. If you actually develop a proper enemy AI, you make the stealthy approach one that requires thought and that provides more challenge.
See where this is going? You lose the balance. By improving stealth, you improve enemy AI, which increases the challenge. But, if the combat stays the same, stealth becomes obsolete just like in AC3. See the problem?

But this isnít the only problem that this ďcombatĒ system provides. There is no excitement in squashing ants. Not only that, but there is no fear either, which means there is no tension or thrill in stealth and no breathtaking escapes. Also, the actual assassination doesnít carry that sense of accomplishment and neither does stealth. This completely ruins immersion and renders the core mechanics boring. Imagine if AC4 BF didnít have naval. Can you imagine having fun with the core mechanics alone? There is no thrill, no fear, no tension and no fun.
And why? Because combat has to be easy in order to please the casual market. And if combat has to be easy then every other core mechanic needs to be easy as well and so on.


Finally, ACís concept was never this. ACís concept was about putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin. Take a look at this and see just how ďhardcoreĒ AC was supposed to be.



ďInstead of asking players to make flawless individual leaps, Assassinís Creed asked you to play a bigger game of choosing the best routes, finding your prey and stalking them, and preempting the guards or shaking them off if youíre discovered. It asked you to have the situational awareness of a killer, to walk into a room and quietly scope the exits and entrances, lines of sight and potential choke points.Ē

It was about putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin which required a lot of waiting scoping, patience, stealth and thought. Combat was used as a last resort. Stealth was the real deal.
This is the AC concept, putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin, not of Hulk. And it makes sense to be that way, since it is how the core mechanics can actually be properly developed.


So, while Iím all for choice, Ubisoft needs to make the real AC, the one that actually respects ACís concept. This way everything will work out. The core wonít be underdeveloped and the sense of dťjŗ vu will be gone along with the lack of tension and thrill.
Sure, combat needs to become more challenging and harder, but it is for a good cause and it is worth it.

Hans684
01-06-2014, 06:35 PM
Sounds like you really want an Assassin's Creed RPG type game. I'm not going to lie, that would be amazing! If we could basically create our own assassin and then improve him/her from the ground up, much like you have said we would have an amazing game. I would love to be able to decide what weapons and fighting style our assassin would utilize, what kind of robes to wear etc. But unfortunately I don't think this will happen anytime soon, Ubisoft likes to create the character and tell a specific story within a specific universe using specific in world reasons for that to make sense. Think about it, if you are reliving your ancestors memory then it doesn't make much sense for you to be able to totally customize all the different aspects you we would want as they would have already used and mastered a, once again, specific combat style. And, whether you like it or not the animus is an important aspect to the series. Thus, where as I would love to have all the things you pointed out, and build our Assassin's Creed game how we want, unless Ubisoft changes some of the ways they make these games, I don't see how that could happen

My point was never to able to make your own charecter etc... But your own(kinda) game, you choose your own skills that unlock troughs the story meaning you make your own difficulty/challenge. You choose what weapons to carry and their damage and some upgrades(all optinal), you make your own arsenal. You make your own AC with each upgrade, it makes the games more personal. Think about all the walkthroughs/playtroughs on YouTube and each with their own flavor. A "Self Made Game"(or SMG).


I’m all for freedom of choice in games but sometimes it gets in the way of the actual game development.
For example, I hear many people saying they like the casual combat (which isn’t even combat but that’s another story), but what about the consequences of this complete lack of challenge?
It’s not just that some people like challenge, challenge is required for a good game development.

Let’s take AC’s core mechanics for instance. One thing is clear, they have to be balanced. You can’t just make combat difficult and stealth easy or the opposite, or else you defeat the purpose of multiple choice (why make a huge effort to use stealth when I can defeat everyone with ease?). The core mechanics are currently far from balanced with combat being this overpowered system that defeats any purpose of using stealth (except for those who play stealthy for the sake of doing it). However, both stealth and combat are still, more or less, accessible. I mean, the blowpipe makes stealth almost as easy as squashing ants (AC’s combat), so they’re pretty balanced.
What I mean is that the core mechanics have to be somewhat balanced for the game to work.


Now, let’s say you want to improve the overall stealth (which AC desperately needs). Where do you start? By improving the enemy AI. But, by improving the AI, you’re getting rid of the super dumb enemies (the ones in AC4 BF). Problem is, what makes stealth both easy and accessible in AC4, is the dumb AI. If you actually develop a proper enemy AI, you make the stealthy approach one that requires thought and that provides more challenge.
See where this is going? You lose the balance. By improving stealth, you improve enemy AI, which increases the challenge. But, if the combat stays the same, stealth becomes obsolete just like in AC3. See the problem?

But this isn’t the only problem that this “combat” system provides. There is no excitement in squashing ants. Not only that, but there is no fear either, which means there is no tension or thrill in stealth and no breathtaking escapes. Also, the actual assassination doesn’t carry that sense of accomplishment and neither does stealth. This completely ruins immersion and renders the core mechanics boring. Imagine if AC4 BF didn’t have naval. Can you imagine having fun with the core mechanics alone? There is no thrill, no fear, no tension and no fun.
And why? Because combat has to be easy in order to please the casual market. And if combat has to be easy then every other core mechanic needs to be easy as well and so on.


Finally, AC’s concept was never this. AC’s concept was about putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin. Take a look at this and see just how “hardcore” AC was supposed to be.




It was about putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin which required a lot of waiting scoping, patience, stealth and thought. Combat was used as a last resort. Stealth was the real deal.
This is the AC concept, putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin, not of Hulk. And it makes sense to be that way, since it is how the core mechanics can actually be properly developed.


So, while I’m all for choice, Ubisoft needs to make the real AC, the one that actually respects AC’s concept. This way everything will work out. The core won’t be underdeveloped and the sense of dťjŗ vu will be gone along with the lack of tension and thrill.
Sure, combat needs to become more challenging and harder, but it is for a good cause and it is worth it.

We have already been over what AC is, so i'm not gonna say anymore about that. If you are interested read our long discussion again in your forum. And this idea can give you the fear you seak. The upgrades is there for you(the player). Do you want a true challenge? Then limit the your skils(outgrade system) or not learn anymore after the intro(upgrade system). You make your game, that's the beauty and horror with this idea it's a hybrid. And with it the AI will become better(better than it is now) becouse it evolvement will come more naturally for developers with a "Sealf Made Game"(SMG), even better if they keep the feedback system from ACIVBF to find out what that need some changes here or there. You can even learn stealth skill(shadow/light, disquise ect..) and limit or add to your arsenal. Your game, your rules. -_- You can still play an assassin with this idea, it is a SMG. Want to play an assassin? Well, then you know exactly what skills to learn and not to learn, what to add and what to take away from the arsenal.

MnemonicSyntax
01-06-2014, 06:46 PM
What Hans is suggesting is a good idea. It's like that now, but with fewer options. Don't want the crossbow in Ezio's games? Don't buy it, if you think it's overpowered, ugly, etc.

It's the same principle, just with more options, which I like.

Hans684
01-06-2014, 07:01 PM
What Hans is suggesting is a good idea. It's like that now, but with fewer options. Don't want the crossbow in Ezio's games? Don't buy it, if you think it's overpowered, ugly, etc.

It's the same principle, just with more options, which I like.

Thank you.
Making your own game and without mods it's all optinal from skills to weapons. you don't need to upgrade everything and learn everything for full sunc, it dives freedom for the players.

Expanding the idea: You already have a arsenal at you HQ in the game(s), you just have more options.

pirate1802
01-06-2014, 08:57 PM
I'm gonna regret this but...


AC’s concept was about putting the player in the shoes of an Assassin

And the meaning of Assassins in this videogame is different from the dictionary meaning of the word. Whichever way you see it. The historical assassins of Altair's times were farthest from what you'd call stealthy. Assassins were advised to be stealthy but each of them was also supposed to be a master in combat. You could mow your way through dozens of guards in AC1 as well, just need a little patience. The game that actually puts the player in the shoes of an assassin, in the actual sense of the word, is probably Hitman. Not AC, and it never was. If it was then AC1 would look a lot different than what it turned out to be.

UncappedWheel82
01-06-2014, 08:59 PM
I get where you are coming from in your "quest" to improve the AC series, but IMO I think you are going the wrong way. AC has always been about freedom, and by constraining the player by using arbitrary plot points, you run the risk of making the same mistakes that AC3 did.

IMO Black Flag was a GREAT step in the right direction. It returned back to the freedom that AC1 and 2 had in terms of in the missions, while blowing out the world the way AC3 WANTED to do. The only improvements that I'd like to see from them is to go more in the direction of GTA and/or Skyrim, and incorporate things like:

- A true night day cycle that affects the player and the world. Wouldn't it be cool if some animals only came out at night? Or if assassins crept the streets at night which made traversing a city a little more dangerous at specific times? Why do I never have to sleep? Why not make it a thing that I have to rest, or that if I rest I get some sort of bonus.

- If they are going to give you a ship, or property of any kind, make the money you collect be meaningful in a way that is not JUST buying upgrades. If I had to worry about restocking food for my crew, or just having a certain amount of money deducted as a maintenance fee for my brotherhood, or my "home", that would go a long way to convey the idea that the world isn't static, but rather it is a place where I reside.

- Combat. Why can I still just hold down the "B" button and deflect all attacks? It has been that way since AC2 (iirc). This being said though, I love AC combat. AC3's, and thus AC4's, combat, is great, and is comparable to the combat in the AC2 series even though it is very much just a simplified version of it. All in all though, AC should take some cues from Ninja Gaiden and other combat focused games where your opponents can break your guard, and really put you on the back foot. Where you really can get in over you head. As it stands now, in AC I feel as though I can do whatever I want, that there is no reason to go into stealth other than because you want to, or because the game mandates that you do. Even when the odds are 50 to 1, I AM STILL IN CONTROL, and I find myself constantly on the search to find challenges in the game. Just once in an AC game I want to feel like the odds are against me because I got to in over my head, but as it stands now, the way I have to make the game "harder" is by turning of the HUD, not employing the upgraded armors and such, and by only using the weaker weapons.

AC has always been an incremental series, that strives to improve with each installment. In my view, why there have been a few missteps here and there, overall the creators are getting there, even if it is slower than I'd like.

Hans684
01-06-2014, 09:23 PM
I get where you are coming from in your "quest" to improve the AC series, but IMO I think you are going the wrong way. AC has always been about freedom, and by constraining the player by using arbitrary plot points, you run the risk of making the same mistakes that AC3 did.

I repect your opinion on my idea, but the thing is that it gives even more freedom in term or power and tools. If you want me to come up with an idea that does give more freedom when merged with the current one. Well i promise you i will make it one day just like i promised(with or without his agreement) MnemonicSyntax that i would make a forum of my solution to the easy/difficulty in AC. AC3 had little to no freedom, it is the most linear AC to date. But if you want even more freedom, then i try to find the best(obviously opinion involved) idea.

Fatal-Feit
01-06-2014, 09:25 PM
I repect your opinion on my idea, but the thing is that it gives even more freedom in term or power and tools. If you want me to come up with an idea that does give more freedom when merged with the current one. Well i promise you i will make it one day just like i promised(with or without his agreement) MnemonicSyntax that i would make a forum of my solution to the easy/difficulty in AC. AC3 had little to no freedom, it is the most linear AC to date. But if you want even more freedom, then i try to find the best(obviously opinion involved) idea.

Unless you're talking about the main sequences, please elaborate.

Hans684
01-06-2014, 09:29 PM
Unless you're talking about the main sequences, please elaborate.

Yes i was. Everything else is fine.