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LeadSpitter_
07-24-2004, 04:55 PM
how come no ones posted or noticed .50s are very easy to dodge now becuase of thier tighter convergence when flying german?

Also i dont see any whines about the 190 having better slow speed elevator now or less stick pressure in the 109s at higher speeds k4 g14 g10.

I certainly have and enjoy flying the 190s and 109s and im doing better then ever against he p38 p47s p39s p51s p40s and p63s < toughest match , the only aircraft im having trouble with are spitfire 9s now which seem to take too much damage from 108 cannon like the p63 took, I notice this from flying the spit as well as shooting them down an honest spit pilot knows while flying they get away with some serious hits and the plane is still very flyable

I dont really see any difference in .50 strenght as all the whiners are saying its stronger then 108 and 103 cannon im sure you know there is absolutely noway thier assumptions are true, as before when flying german aircraft sometimes you can take so many hits and be fine with a fuel leak, other times a quick 4 second burst will get the engine or wing cables . Snapping cables seems to happen most the ripping off wings or tail section of the 190s and 109s

flying the mustang and p47 it seems you can actually aim for specific parts now at .35 .50 which is good at close range but it more difficult to get hits then the shotgun spread of them before.

thanks oleg for making .50s accurate at convergence its made the game alot better for both sides.

I think the the german only pilots are just to use to being hit for about 6-10 seconds and surviving 3-4 BnZ's .50 cal

I also been taking 50 fuel now instead of 75 which seems to last alot longer in the 190 and 109 then it did before, enough to get 6-7 kills each run and rtb Thanks. This patch really improved the game. the only fly one side people are just soar from change with the spitfire, and not surviving from multiple bnzs the g2 still turns inside it so does the 109g6 without the 108 cannon, i have shot down many spits since the patch has been out and ill tell you I feel like I really have to work to shoot a spit down its a real good challenge. Im still blowing up the us aircraft like before 1-2 hits

once again thanks and dont listen to the whine babies they are showing no proof documents etc. Im sure you learned to ignore them. This last patch has certainly made the game alot better.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

LeadSpitter_
07-24-2004, 04:55 PM
how come no ones posted or noticed .50s are very easy to dodge now becuase of thier tighter convergence when flying german?

Also i dont see any whines about the 190 having better slow speed elevator now or less stick pressure in the 109s at higher speeds k4 g14 g10.

I certainly have and enjoy flying the 190s and 109s and im doing better then ever against he p38 p47s p39s p51s p40s and p63s &lt; toughest match , the only aircraft im having trouble with are spitfire 9s now which seem to take too much damage from 108 cannon like the p63 took, I notice this from flying the spit as well as shooting them down an honest spit pilot knows while flying they get away with some serious hits and the plane is still very flyable

I dont really see any difference in .50 strenght as all the whiners are saying its stronger then 108 and 103 cannon im sure you know there is absolutely noway thier assumptions are true, as before when flying german aircraft sometimes you can take so many hits and be fine with a fuel leak, other times a quick 4 second burst will get the engine or wing cables . Snapping cables seems to happen most the ripping off wings or tail section of the 190s and 109s

flying the mustang and p47 it seems you can actually aim for specific parts now at .35 .50 which is good at close range but it more difficult to get hits then the shotgun spread of them before.

thanks oleg for making .50s accurate at convergence its made the game alot better for both sides.

I think the the german only pilots are just to use to being hit for about 6-10 seconds and surviving 3-4 BnZ's .50 cal

I also been taking 50 fuel now instead of 75 which seems to last alot longer in the 190 and 109 then it did before, enough to get 6-7 kills each run and rtb Thanks. This patch really improved the game. the only fly one side people are just soar from change with the spitfire, and not surviving from multiple bnzs the g2 still turns inside it so does the 109g6 without the 108 cannon, i have shot down many spits since the patch has been out and ill tell you I feel like I really have to work to shoot a spit down its a real good challenge. Im still blowing up the us aircraft like before 1-2 hits

once again thanks and dont listen to the whine babies they are showing no proof documents etc. Im sure you learned to ignore them. This last patch has certainly made the game alot better.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

p1ngu666
07-24-2004, 05:05 PM
it does seem pretty good now, does the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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VOL_Hans
07-24-2004, 05:07 PM
The .50's have been improved quite a bit, I do not like the improvements at all...

They hurt even more than they did before when you take a solid hit.

But now allow me to bring up the German MG's... German MG-17's [7.92] are really a joke. They do no damage at all!

And German MG-131's [13mm] are comperable to the Allied .303's and .30's...

The MG-151/15 is...well...it's interesting. 3/4th of the time I'll empty the magazine into the target at 50%-80% accuracy and get nothing. The remaining 1/4th of the time I'll take a quick snap shot and the target just detonates...WTF?

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LEXX_Luthor
07-24-2004, 05:17 PM
Even Gibbage wondered back during the big Browning Thread where all teh LuftWhiners were hiding. Coming out of the closet now is a bit late.

__________________
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:
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steiner562
07-24-2004, 05:51 PM
The 50 cals dont bother me, Im much more disturbed by the spitfires performance and accuracy,(not saying its wrong just have a harder fight verse the spit )they are the biggest challange ATM for online luft pilots,( for me anyway)in western servers sets anyway IMHO.
Regards
Stein

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LeadSpitter_
07-24-2004, 06:15 PM
I agree with you hans about the german 7.92 and felt that way since sturmovik, I have weapon 1 2 mapped to different stick buttons.

some occasions in 2.04 I've shot down spits with the mg-17 only in very short bursts to the engine which catches fire. Then the spitfire explodes instantly online, mustangs in a 2 second burst killing thier engine, p40s getting thier engine siezed or snapping elevator and rudder cables sending them into the ground.

on the norm It usually takes about 60%-80& of the ammo with mg17 or mg131 mg151 usually to get a kill for me.

In alot of books I've read alot of the pilots explain getting kills with just the smgs only saving cannon for bombers p47s p38s western front, both 190 and 109s. On the eastern front Ive read they did the same as well saving cannon for the il2 and pe2 3.

I would like to see them more accurate and have slightly a bigger punch, it makes me wonder how the ki43 is going to do with two 7.62 only, in the pto they did extremely well. and got many kills on p39s wildcats corsairs hellcats and p40s. But if the guns work like they do on the 109 i doubt anyone would want to fly them.

the thing i dont get is how fms and dms change so much from patch to patch and all weapons effectiveness's. Against the us planes flying german i feel like i dont have to work that hard but this new spit9 feels like im struggling to get kills on them most of the time like how the p63 use to take so much damage.

Im very happy with this patch with the exception of the lagg3 dm, spit dm, p47dm and il2 dm which seem similiar strenght.

The p63 use to be like them but got fixed, i never had a problem with the spit dms before one quick burst from a 109 or 190 the plane fell apart in pieces.

Maybe for BOB oleg will allow a fm/dm/weapons custom setting that gives the host an option to slightly modify within reason listing all changes made in the difficulties settings before joining a custom game.

Have some kind of interface sliders for certain areas that the host user only can adjust within some reasonable limits determined by oleg and team.

being all the data charts mock dogfight tests comes up with slightly different results in sourced information. Thats the only way to stop the whining i think. Im sure if people dont like the settings others wont fly thier and blame the host rather the ubi.
--------------

stiener i agree with you also the spitfire is the only tough fight for me when flying german unless im in the g2 or g6 with no 108 cannon, then im able to turn inside them very easiliy and they are not much of a challenge and cannont shake you.

In warclouds the other night it was 6 190a9s vs two spitfires. two were trying to turn fight the other 4 of us were bnzing some of us getting hits and the spits just get fuel leaks.

the spitfires managed getting 4 of the 190s it was me and jv44 left which finally got the spits, i was badly damaged too where i was hit in the wing by cannon and crashed while rtb.

100 100 100 100 inputs wing hits and 190s dont mix well for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sat July 24 2004 at 05:24 PM.]

steiner562
07-24-2004, 08:24 PM
So the p-63 DM was fixed? I thought gibbage posted that the bug was sent and noted by oleg but was too late to fix before patch was released, to be honest I havent engaged one since the patch arrived http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
About german mgs i know your pain my favourite ride online is 109g6as when possible (default)I can PUMP most of my ammo in a spit,even a pony at times and dont even try attacking a p-47 waist of time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif thats not to say we luft guys are screwed we are still uber http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif LOL
Regards
Stein

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray01sm.jpg

Hoarmurath
07-24-2004, 08:32 PM
The main complain about the change of .50 in the game is not about hitting power, but about effective range... Nice try...

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
07-24-2004, 10:46 PM
to be honest i have never been shot down by .50 cal under .40 range. since 2.04.

I think its the only thing people can whine too becuase the point was proven with sourced information and gun tables with the dispursion.

why dont they complain about the 108 cannon u4 cannon or 103 cannon which is effective with a 1 shot kill up to 3.00 range

This is the 108 cannon shot of the me262 one shot hit the wing at 1.30 range and ripped the wing off, the image shows 1.40 because i zoomed out a bit to get the group of p51s in the shot. if you want a track ill send it

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/bs.jpg

I seen people post shots that are zoomed out to 85 which is really like 75 range and nothing but lots of flashes but no damage but fuel leak.

the yak9t most russian cannon shvaks are all effective at long distances, 108 cannon 103 cannon the same. The only gun i cant hit a plane over 1.00 successfully each time is 30mm the gun on the p38 p63 p39 which has tremendous arc.

even with the me262u4 i have hit groups of b17s at over 4.00 range just arcing the shot slightly up.

People are just whining to whine and i wish it would stop.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sat July 24 2004 at 10:12 PM.]

LeadSpitter_
07-24-2004, 10:58 PM
I wish the mods would get very strict about the whiners, no proof 1 warning if they dont stop ban them

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

ASH at S-MART
07-24-2004, 11:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I wish the mods would get very strict about the whiners, no proof 1 warning if they don't stop ban them
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Problem is for some of the whiners.. not all.. some.. most actually BELIVE that stating their *feelings* is some sort of proof.. As if their interpretation of what some pilot meant when he said *better* is the only interpretation and valid for every situation. So, like children it would be wrong to come down so hard on them and bann them.. Better to educate them.. The next prob is it is hard to tell which ones are the dumb ones and which ones are doing it on purpose just to get a rise out of people.

ASH HOUSEWARES GROOVY (http://www.garnersclassics.com/wavs/army/groovy.wav)
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UF-Josse
07-25-2004, 01:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I wish the mods would get very strict about the whiners, no proof 1 warning if they dont stop ban them

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So , you'r a really funny boy LS and some others....

To submmarize your opinion :

1 - if you think same as me and my friends, you are welcome.

2 - if you don't, you are a troll and a whinner .... you shoul'd be banned.....

Yes, really democratic......

Now, i know why i never post on this forum...

All that i have seen, read and other here don't proof anything....

Just read ... non sense, hollywood movies....blackmailing.....

"if you don't give me my toy as i dream, i don't work more".....

So.... don't work more and.... bye....

"i don't buy the game"..... don't buy it an play xbox if you want.....

it is just sickening......

Oleg don't agree but have probably no time to discuss with the dirty children.
Play with your toys and beware to acne.

KaRaYa-X
07-25-2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
how come no ones posted or noticed .50s are very easy to dodge now becuase of thier tighter convergence when flying german?

Also i dont see any whines about the 190 having better slow speed elevator now or less stick pressure in the 109s at higher speeds k4 g14 g10.

I certainly have and enjoy flying the 190s and 109s and im doing better then ever against he p38 p47s p39s p51s p40s and p63s &lt; toughest match , the only aircraft im having trouble with are spitfire 9s now which seem to take too much damage from 108 cannon like the p63 took, I notice this from flying the spit as well as shooting them down an honest spit pilot knows while flying they get away with some serious hits and the plane is still very flyable

I dont really see any difference in .50 strenght as all the whiners are saying its stronger then 108 and 103 cannon im sure you know there is absolutely noway thier assumptions are true, as before when flying german aircraft sometimes you can take so many hits and be fine with a fuel leak, other times a quick 4 second burst will get the engine or wing cables . Snapping cables seems to happen most the ripping off wings or tail section of the 190s and 109s

flying the mustang and p47 it seems you can actually aim for specific parts now at .35 .50 which is good at close range but it more difficult to get hits then the shotgun spread of them before.

thanks oleg for making .50s accurate at convergence its made the game alot better for both sides.

I think the the german only pilots are just to use to being hit for about 6-10 seconds and surviving 3-4 BnZ's .50 cal

I also been taking 50 fuel now instead of 75 which seems to last alot longer in the 190 and 109 then it did before, enough to get 6-7 kills each run and rtb Thanks. This patch really improved the game. the only fly one side people are just soar from change with the spitfire, and not surviving from multiple bnzs the g2 still turns inside it so does the 109g6 without the 108 cannon, i have shot down many spits since the patch has been out and ill tell you I feel like I really have to work to shoot a spit down its a real good challenge. Im still blowing up the us aircraft like before 1-2 hits

once again thanks and dont listen to the whine babies they are showing no proof documents etc. Im sure you learned to ignore them. This last patch has certainly made the game alot better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes .50CALs are easier to dodge now in 2.04 because they don't spray anymore and you won't get those "lucky-1-hit-engine-kills" but come on, you can't claim that being a DISADVANTAGE! If you aim properly you will get a LOT more hits and kill an enemy with a 2 secs burst or even less (I've blown up Ki84s with less than a second of fire from the P51D's guns)

As far as FMs go: There is NO difference from 2.01 especially on the german side - the improved FW190 elevator response was already there in 2.01; Bf109 high speed handling is still the same (I fly Bf109s 80% of the time);

The only FM changes that I noticed are slightly increased turn times for the Spitfires... the MkIX versions will and can outturn Bf109G6 planes now (which is ok).

About the picture you posted (Me262 firing at 1.40 distance): Did you ever try to do that yourself? It seems that this was a VERY VERY lucky shot... normally Mk108 bullets start to loose altitude after only a few hundred meters of flight - you would have to give a lot of lead to have a chance of hitting anything at that distance; Furthermore the 4xMk108 are shotguns (the same on every other plane that has Mk108s installed)... the shells sometimes do not leave the barrel in a straight line but go off to the left or right or high left, low right, etc... I remember that this has been introduced in FB 1.0

In IL2 Classic the Mk108 would shoot relatively straight BUT the plane itself would shake a bit while firing - this was a lot more realistic IMHO than having the Mk108 fire in all directions

The Mk103 is a LOT better than the Mk108 (and that IS correct); far better muzzle velocity because the shell is bigger and features more propellant; thus the Mk103 had a far better ballistic)

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

This is the site YOU YOURSELF posted a short while ago Leadspitter... there you can see the ballistics of different guns

--= flying online as JG=52Karaya-X =--

LeadSpitter_
07-25-2004, 06:48 AM
that is me shooting in the picture, and i have posted and visted that gun tables site many times. I also have the book ballistics of wwii which is where most of that sites information is from.

How come I dont notice the .50 cal being deadlier i been flying german mainly since 2.04 and outnumbered by alot, seems everyones hooked on the spitfire.

Sure im getting shotdown when im outnumbered 3 to 1. I seem im able to avoid being hit alot easier then i ever did before "golden bullet shotgun the the engine take skilled aim now and you can avoid it by keeping your nose away from a side engine deflection shot" it seems like the same thing becuase im always moving making a a difficult shot for my opponents.

I also been bounce by p47s where they were able to kill me in one pass while in the k-4 with a very good 2-3 second concentrated hits and thats a very good thing. Certainly more challenging then before where it woul take p47s 2-4 bnzs to kill me in a k4 and most times they dont get a second chance flying the p47

The us aircraft are still extremely easy to fight against while flying german nothing compaired to flying against vvs.

I just dont get how theres so much whining about the .50 cal. Its accurate to the charts now and is very weak past .50 range. I certainly cant get kills at 1.30 range with .50 cal somtimes hits but the planes can keep flying unharmed.

All the fighting is usually under 6000m at 9100m sure the jug will outrun you so will the mustang but no ones up there and if they are its very rare you will run into a fight.

I fly the 109s and 190s alot I certainly notice a difference even tho its not in the readme especially with the 190a's for the better, maybe you dont notice it trying to turn fight with the improved spitfire.

The jugs fm seems like it has more accelaration now too thats not in the readme either think its not true?

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

alarmer
07-25-2004, 07:42 AM
Could you Leadspitter post a track for that ME262 shooting P51 down from distance of 1.3km?

I certainly cannot do so, I would just like to see how you perform this miracle shot. Personally I cannot hit anything with MK108 from 300m which is suggested to be normal firing range for MK108 on that website Karaya-X pointed out.

If you cannot host a track I can host it for you, send me a mail to Alarmer1981@hotmail.com and we can discuss file transfer.

I just dont think its rational to believe that that you can perform such shots on daily basis.

BTW. What does exactly the US 0.5cal manuals maximum effective range mean? Does it mean that beyond that range 0.5cal dont do damage or it spreads too much?

Hoarmurath
07-25-2004, 08:13 AM
this is an excerpt of this famous US manual about aerial gunnery with .50 caliber MG :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To determine the maximum range at wich the target can be led with reasonable accuracy, using an average bullet velocity, consult ballistic tables to find the maximum range at which changes in altitude and air speed make no appreciable change in the bullet's speed and the maximum range within which the bullet's time of flight is practically proportionnal to the range covered. Such a study of .50 caliber AP ammunition reveals that, at a 600-foot range, excellent accuracy is possible because variations in the bullet's time of flight are negligible under all operating conditions of speed and altitude. At a 1200-foot range, the bullet's speed is still consistent enough to permit reasonable accuracy.
Beyond a 1200-foot range, changes in time of flight of the bullet under different operationnal conditions and aiming errors by the pilot using a fixed optical sight are too great to permit accurate lead.
With the use of the fixed optical sight, the limit of effective range is about 1200 feet and the most effective range is closer and depends on the particular aircraft's harmonization and the pilot ability. Since the pilot does not remain at the most effective range long enough ti get a good burst at that range, he should try to bracket the best range.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seem interesting to see that they consider the maximum effective range to be independent of any factors, like harmonization or even pilot ability.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
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Brotrob
07-25-2004, 12:29 PM
Hello,

I really wonder why everybody states things like " my MK 108 is good enough against the spit " and so on, why everybody is satisfied when the anemyplane can be brought down with the 108. This weapon is represented in the wrong way in this game. It was not the case, that LW Pilots had to rely on this weapon to bring down fighters. It was installed only in Fws meant for Bomberintercepton ( only some A7s and A8s, the Sturmb√¬∂cke ) and in several late-war 109s.

Have you ever heard of a LW-Pilot in a 20mm- me 109 or even a 4-cannon-Fw 190 (!) having problems to bring down fighters ? Sadly only few online flyers fly historically accurate with 20mm only, sadly but traceable .

I think its no biased BS if I state, that a 20mm cannon was devasting weapon against fighters ( excludes perhaps the Thunderbolt or Fw 190 which were armored above average). Perhaps DM of fighters against cannonfire is a bit to tough, or 2mm is a bit to weak.

And what a MK 108 Shell should do against a fighter, well, you know the stories.

Brotrob

alarmer
07-25-2004, 02:47 PM
Hi Brotrob

I came to same conclusion today when I tested different weapons agains various planes.

My first finding was that wings are really fragile compared to rear fuselage. This might be only logical but I think in AEP it goes bit too far.

In my gunnery testings I needed usually about ten 20mm rounds to destroy (Yak,Lagg,bf109) fuselage when a 1-2 hits in the wing was enought to rip a wing off.

This lead me to same conclusion as you did, light cannons in this game arent as deadly as they should. But Iam no expert if anybody has good info on the subject Iam all ears http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This goes for LW and VVS since I hear Hispanos are real killers. Have to test this tomorrow.

If Iam not completely wrong this has something to do with il2 way of modelling damage and that explosive rounds arent getting proper punch as in real life they did.

Other things I found out was 30mm damage which seems to be odd too. With little burst of two round hitting the same time Yak exploded everytime. But with one bullet at a time P51D could whitstand 3-4 30mm rounds all in the fuselage. Wasnt 5-6 30mm rounds enought to bring down a bomber if hitted in the same area? Three 30mm rounds into fighters fuselage seems bit excessive.

Gotta add which has been said many times, I couldnt help noticing how much bf109 shakes with 20mm and 30mm fire. I have read that finnish Bf109 pilots said that when firing a 20mm they could only feel slight vibration under their seat. Sorry no source for this but I can get it if there are disbelievers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Fire good burst with 20mm in AEP and the cockpit is literally SHAKING not vibrating. I dont need to say what 30mm does http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I expected this much shaking on some light VVS planes as Mig but they seem to be as stable gunplatforms as bf109.

I also did some crude 20mm & 30mm dispersion tests in high speed (550 IAS , alt 5000m). I cant say anything since Iam no expert but it seems that their dispersion is due to this high shaking effect bf109 has in AEP. I only wonder what kinda weapong could make a couple ton plane shake so much in a speed of 600kmh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

With MG testing there was nothing new. Both LW & VVS light machine guns were nearly useless against fighters. Good only for making fuel leak and lucky engine shot.

[This message was edited by alarmer on Sun July 25 2004 at 01:56 PM.]

WWMaxGunz
07-26-2004, 03:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
this is an excerpt of this famous US manual about aerial gunnery with .50 caliber MG :

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To determine the maximum range at wich the target can be led with reasonable accuracy, using an average bullet velocity, consult ballistic tables to find the maximum range at which changes in altitude and air speed make no appreciable change in the bullet's speed and the maximum range within which the bullet's time of flight is practically proportionnal to the range covered. Such a study of .50 caliber AP ammunition reveals that, at a 600-foot range, excellent accuracy is possible because variations in the bullet's time of flight are negligible under all operating conditions of speed and altitude. At a 1200-foot range, the bullet's speed is still consistent enough to permit reasonable accuracy.
Beyond a 1200-foot range, changes in time of flight of the bullet under different operationnal conditions and aiming errors by the pilot using a fixed optical sight are too great to permit accurate lead.
With the use of the fixed optical sight, the limit of effective range is about 1200 feet and the most effective range is closer and depends on the particular aircraft's harmonization and the pilot ability. Since the pilot does not remain at the most effective range long enough ti get a good burst at that range, he should try to bracket the best range.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seem interesting to see that they consider the maximum effective range to be independent of any factors, like harmonization or even pilot ability.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you have a problem interpreting the text. Nothing new for you.

They write in the 2nd paragraph you quote there that at over 1200 ft range about
"aiming errors of the pilot using a fixed optical sight are too great to permit
accurate lead." Just perhaps the gun harmonization is considered standard since
in another part of the manual it is given and discussed. But you seem to either
have not read that part, forgotten or just not understood.

Notice the words you quoted, "accurate lead". For anyone else this shows that
they are including deflection shots as part of the discussion in determining
the effective range. Do you understand that if a target does not require lead
that time of flight is no longer a factor? Do you understand that therefore
the effective range would increase? Perhaps you do or can, but it would not
support your limp wet blanket attempts to tear down what others post.

Not a nice try. You should at least not quote the parts that dispute your
own BS!


Neal

VMF513_Sandman
07-26-2004, 05:34 AM
convergance on the p-38's fire is alot tighter, but without a gunfire sequence, all the shell volley's are in bursts. the gun sounds a continuous fire, but the only lead that's put out is with the tracers. this isnt just for p-38's, this is for all 50 cal equiped guns. for deflections, this creates sizeable gaps. big enough for a phat azz'd tb3 to fly through let alone a small fighter. all u'd need to verify this is take up a p-38 and fire at the dirt. 1st do quick trigger squeezes, then do a 'continuous burst'. u'll see the differnce. it's the primary reason the 50 cal's require more precise aiming or u'll miss more than u think.
looking at a vet ai firing just the mg's in a g2, the shells are coming in a continuous stream. not so with the 50 cal's. g2's mg fire is capable of cutting a d-27 in half in seconds. dunno what convergance the ai's are set to, but when they hit, their more devastating than online.

alarmer
07-26-2004, 06:56 AM
This might be due to AI:s capability to keep the plane exactly in the same position when firing.

With human pilots I have never seen and never will see german light MG cut any plane in half. These guns are pretty much useless in the game only good for making fuel leak and lucky engine shots.

Functio
07-26-2004, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KaRaYa-X:
[QUOTE]The only FM changes that I noticed are slightly increased turn times for the Spitfires... the MkIX versions will and can outturn Bf109G6 planes now (which is ok).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what may be causing some problems - before the patch, the Spit IX could actually outturn the G-6. But, it could not do so if the G-6 used flaps.

Now, we have no evidence for or against the G-6 being able to outturn the Spit if it used flaps - it didn't feature in any tests. But we know that it couldn't turn with the Spit in any normal sense, and this was also the case in the previous version of AEP. There was a whole thread about this at Sim HQ with tracks showing exactly what was possible.

So now the Spit in v2.4 outturns the G-6 regardless of any flap usage. The end result is that the Spit now is able to perform extreme mannouevers, even at high speeds. This is probably because too many people whined that the Spit was being 'outturned'. But this was not the real problem - the real problem is how flaps are modelled in the FM, not the FM of the Spit itself. The previous version of the Spit could easily outturn G-6s, if neither plane used flaps. But people here were basing all their opinions on seeing the flaps being exploited unrealistically in this sim.

So when people talk about 'whining', remember that it sometimes works. The only problem is, it screws up any attempts to make this sim realistic.

I was looking forward to flying the Spit, as it's one of my all-time favourite aircraft - but I don't want to fly it if it just flies around in a way which it's real-life version couldn't do.