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View Full Version : Will The 'glass ceiling' be removed?



Frequent_Flyer
09-02-2004, 12:54 PM
I'm a BIG fan of Il-2/FB. I know it was designed around the "playing in the dirt" style of dog fighting in the east. Will PF allow a accurate FM for aircraft that were designed to perform at altitudes exceeding FB's limits. I love the view from up there!

*****************************"Hitler Built A Fortress Around Europe,But He Forgot to Put A Roof On It" ~ FDR

Frequent_Flyer
09-02-2004, 12:54 PM
I'm a BIG fan of Il-2/FB. I know it was designed around the "playing in the dirt" style of dog fighting in the east. Will PF allow a accurate FM for aircraft that were designed to perform at altitudes exceeding FB's limits. I love the view from up there!

*****************************"Hitler Built A Fortress Around Europe,But He Forgot to Put A Roof On It" ~ FDR

sugaki
09-02-2004, 01:26 PM
Though the glass ceiling may be raised, there will still be one at some point. Planes in FB didn't deteriorate in performance accurately due to the engine itself, and we'll likely see the same for PF.

Kartveli
09-02-2004, 02:18 PM
Yes, I have read befor ethat in FB the atmosphere does not thin at all above 10,000m, that it stays the same after that..

VW-IceFire
09-02-2004, 02:23 PM
The 10,000 meters isn't really a glass ceiling. You can go up much higher but the level of modeling at above those altitudes drops quite a bit.

Nonetheless...about 10,000 meters there isn't much in the way of arial combat. Most combat in the ETO was between 3,000 and 8,000 meters. Most combat in the Pacific tended to be lower around 1,000 to 6,000 meters (not that its a restruction or anything). On the Eastern Front, patrols would be commonly flown at low altitudes as it was a much more tactically oriented war.

Remember that 3000 meters is roughly around 10,000 feet and that 6000 meters is roughly around 20,000 feet. These are the areas where most ETO combat took place and most aircraft like Spitfires and 190's have their best performance in that range. Above that the P-47 and a few others are pretty good...but then you get into the realm of the rare high altitude recon and interceptors (like the Spitfire VII).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

RAC_Pips
09-02-2004, 03:26 PM
The height/FM modelling is a serious drawback in IL-2/FB. As is the belief that not much action occurred over 20,000ft in either Europe or the Pacific.

8th Air Force regularly flew at 24-26,000ft for their bombing missions, Escorts flying up to 30,000ft. In many 1st hand accounts by Luftwaffe pilots it is mentioned that initial fights started anywhere from 28,000ft plus, as they endevoured to gain a height advantage over the 8th AF.

Even back in the days of the RAF 'non-stop offensive, in 1941/2, missions were flown at heights of 25,000ft. With the Luftwaffe almost always interceptiing from over 28,000ft plus.

As for the Pacific a standard raid by the IJNAF over Guadalcanal occurred at 25,000ft. G4M's and A6M escorts would slow climb to 29,000ft on the long approach south. Once they reached Russell Island they would go into a shallow dive to build up speed, arriving over Guadalcanal at a bombing height of 25,000ft. Which was why the P-39's/400's hardly ever gained a intercept - they just couldn't get up there. And why the F4F's often found it so difficult to catch the Japanese if inadequate warning had been received.

The IJAAF had an official bombing height of 24,000ft, which they rigidly stuck to over Malaya, Burma and China.

The IJNAF conducted very high bombing raids over Darwin in 1942/43. Often as high as 27,000ft, more regularly at 24,000ft.

It's only in the naval battles that sub-20,000ft bombing raids flew, usually at around 15,000ft to 17,000ft. Bothe the USN and the IJNAF operated at this height.

Even the USAAF over New Guinea and China regularly flew as often over 25,000ft as they did at lower altitudes.

VF-3Thunderboy
09-02-2004, 05:09 PM
The whole point of high start altitudes is because most flight simmers DOGFIGHT, and with altitude, you can maintain manuvering speed IE: over 240 KTS, for a longer period of time.

Wildcats at Guadalcanal regularly hiked it up to 24,000 ft. (Marion Carl recommended 30,000 ft!)
Boyington in his 214 Blacksheep would also start around 24,000 ft. But Ive read that some pilots went to 30-32,000 at times.
The Marianas Turkey shoot had 3 decks, 15-20 and 25,000 ft.So high altitude dogfights are historicly accurate.

But mainly Most if not all pilots in CFS2 with 1% planes I flew with LOVED flying at high start altitudes because suprise suprise, you can actually FLY the airplane in a 3 DIMENSIONAL environment. But its really about airspeed and manuverability for a longer period of time. And then you get that great vertical manuvering, when you really start to fly the sim! You CANNOT do vertical manuvers when your blowin dust.

When you blow dust, or water mist, you cant go DOWN, and rarely go UP. You can only go sideways.Most CFS2 pilots did not understand this,even with the4 more advanced 1% planes,and some goofy silly sillys actually would argue with me AGAINST altititude, for a year or so. No wonder M$ quit the combat sim!

If they include a way to do High altitude starts in this sim, they will truly be gods! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-02-2004, 06:21 PM
FB altitude limit is largely a Myth. Fuel mix continues to need adjusting until you can climb no more. Aircraft performance continously and sharply drops as you climb above 10km and keep climbing until you can climb no longer. If we are having difficulty dogfighting at high altitudes, excellent, we are simming history.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Freycinet
09-03-2004, 02:24 AM
removing the glass ceiling, does that mean that more female executives will be in PF? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

sugaki
09-03-2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>FB altitude limit is largely a Myth. Fuel mix continues to need adjusting until you can climb no more. Aircraft performance continously and sharply drops as you climb above 10km and keep climbing until you can climb no longer. If we are having difficulty dogfighting at high altitudes, _excellent,_ we are simming history.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it is not a myth. In real life, you reach critical altittude when your plane is at such a high altittude that it cannot adequately get enough air/fuel mix for your engine. When you reach that point your engine will stall until you go lower. In FB, at a certain point it simply doesn't let you climb further--hence a glass ceiling.

Aircraft performance does deteriorate at high altittudes in FB, that's not the point of contention. Nevertheless in FB at a certain point you reach some inexplicable threshold where your engine's still kicking but your plane refuses to climb further. I'm guessing a table-based threshold in the game engine.

LEXX_Luthor
09-03-2004, 06:26 PM
The engine stalling or kicking may not be modded, but won't that make a high altitude engine modding issue and not high altitude FM issue?

I have taken CR.42 up where I needed 30% fuel mix in the game...is that realistic? If I could have gotten it higher I would have to go even lower (in game). I think you are suggesting that if you go higher the fuel mix could not be effectively adjusted any more...like TB~3 has no fuel mix control and so is limited to about 4km altitude where you start smoking--AI does not have this. High altitude FM is modded and so is engine but maybe its not all there yet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Jason Bourne
09-03-2004, 09:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:
In FB, at a certain point it simply doesn't let you climb further--hence a glass ceiling.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont think so, ive got a track some where of me zoom climbing to around 41km up, which equates to about 25 miles up, and so dont go telling me that there is a glass cieling on the game, unless its at 42k+

...there followed one of those moments in history, the sort when the entire earth seemed to stop its spin, hearts paused, and even the people who'd been screaming their loyalty to a man already dead would remember only silence.

LEXX_Luthor
09-03-2004, 10:20 PM
Not talking about Zoom Climb in rocket plane lol.


edit...silliness aside...actually there are some problems. AI heavy bombers cannot maintain altitude above 7 kilometers. There was a post long ago talking about this, and it made sense, but forgot what that was about.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Fri September 03 2004 at 10:13 PM.]

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Fri September 03 2004 at 10:13 PM.]

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Fri September 03 2004 at 10:13 PM.]

k5054
09-04-2004, 03:53 AM
Seems to be some problem as to what the deiling is. At a high enough altitude, in a real piston/prop plane, all the power availble is used to overcome drag, there's nothing left to climb with. As height increases engine power reduces (above supercharger full throttle height) and the drag related to lift increases too. (Profile drag actually goes down). All these effects come from the air density. The enigne is not stalling and spluttering, it's still turning out several hundred HP. It just takes all those HP to keep the plane in the air.

What I want to know is did Oleg et al ever take a normal commercial flight at 30,000ft or more in daytime? Where did they see that dark blue sky with the stars in it? Even in the evening the ground goes dark first. My problem with high alt in FM is entirely with visibility, I can't see anything up there. In RL, sometimes planes can be seen many miles away either from catching the sun or standing out as dark dots on a light background. Not in this game.

stansdds
09-04-2004, 01:34 PM
Makes sense, the higher the altitude, the less dense the air and the less "hazy" it would appear.

RedDeth
09-04-2004, 01:48 PM
there are serious problems with american planes. many american fighters can make it up to 40,000 ft . some P-38s and P-47s and i think some P-51s.

this needs to be addressed as american planes could always fly above the ceiling of jap planes and thumb their nose at em.

japanese probly had 100 to 200 fighters of very limited production that could even get close to that altitude. where as a huge chunk of our planes could. this needs addressing in P.F.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

OldMan____
09-04-2004, 03:06 PM
COme on..like if any of you will be climbing to more than 10.000 meters online. 10km.. are 33.000 feet. The 28.000 feet stated in above post is just 8400 meters, something not very far from what you can fight today.

If increasing Alt limit degradates precision in FM at lower altidutes.. it worths not.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Snootles
09-04-2004, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Where did they see that dark blue sky with the stars in it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. At 9000m the sky should be even brighter than at sea level. Maybe at 18000m it would start getting dark...

LEXX_Luthor
09-04-2004, 05:15 PM
No, as far as I know the real sky (not sun) is darker and more blue the higher you go from sea level, but not the Extreme of blue over the FB. That is waaaay too deep blue. I love the way FB sky gets more blue starting from 2km and gets a deeper blue every kilometer higher, but it should not be so blue at 8km. The drop in colour and brightness and is too fast for altitude gain.

Anyway the FB stars are not real. As far as I know only LOMAC has correct star positions, star brightness, and star colours. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif and is the only reason I bought the JetSim (certainly not to play it with ATI 9200). LOMAC stars are important because the best pilots knew their stars and they could navigate at night with no instruments and no equipment if they had to.

But the FB moon Rules! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

FB moon very small, tiny and looks like the realistic 1/2 degree moon diameter. LOMAC has huge giant arcade gaming moon.


...and LOMAC still doesn't have real Flyable jets.

http://www.sweptwings.co.uk/images/ns_mystere_3as_small.jpg
~ http://www.sweptwings.co.uk/

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

flyingbullseye
09-05-2004, 10:08 PM
As far as visual I would agree with K5054 on this one. Looking down it has a periscope look to it. IF anyone has flown at 30,000 ft you don't get that you can see for miles and miles. In my opinion I also don't see much if any performance drop in many of the planes and none what so ever in any of the russian planes at high altitudes. I thought historically they didn't do well about 15,000 ft?

BfHeFwMe
09-07-2004, 09:13 PM
It's all pointless if the AI take to diving for the deck on every encounter. Have fun up there all by your lonesome. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Fliger747
09-08-2004, 03:36 PM
OK guyz, I have a LOT of time flying ABOVE 40,000'! I've even limped non-turbo/supercharged planes into the 20's. MIXTURE for any piston powered aircraft becomes critical, near the operational ceiling (100fpm climb) and the 'combat' cieling (500 fpm climb) the mixture control actually becomes the 'throttle'. This is a very delicate operation in reality and I don't expect it to be modeled here.

More to the point for most simmers is the flying qualities of the aircraft become very delicate. You have a high TRUE airspeed and a LOW INDICATED airspeed. The manuver margin between stall and 'cruise' might be just a few knots! Any manuver capability is quite minimal and usally results in descent. Aircraft at HIGH alitude are a lot of WORK to fly manually a there is very little aerodynamic dampening, in the thin air it just wants to roll, pitch and wallow, it feels as if the controls are connected with rubber bands!

"Dogfights" as such were more a matter of straight flight (and flight) and persuit, really BIG, slow circles in the sky and then eventually descent to lower altitude. What altitude was usefull for was safety in cruise and potential energy. It was hard for an enemy to ge up to where you were already, and easy for you (one time deal) to swoop down from your sanctury at just the right time.