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LoyalACFan
12-21-2013, 01:31 PM
We REALLY need more animations.

Personally, I'm OK with the fight mechanics as they are. It's easy, yeah, but let's face it, with the expanding fanbase they're never going to make it all that challenging. But seriously, if we're relying on canned kill animations, there needs to be more than a dozen of them. Combat was the one thing I think AC3 did better than AC4; combat in 4 got boring pretty quick because you'd seen it all after three or four fights. It didn't help that most of the animations were recycled from AC3, including ALL of the fist, axe, and musket ones and about a third of the sword ones.

Aside from just having more of them in general, they need to stop reusing them from character to character. It was ridiculous how much they reused between AC1 and 2; Ezio barely had ANY new animations. I know it's easier on the devs to recycle assets like that, but some of Edward's sword moves look really silly after having been ported over from Connor's tomahawk. Even sillier that Adewale, a gigantic tank of a man who hacks people to pieces with a machete like they're made of paper, uses his hidden blades exactly like Edward, who looks like a bloody weed in comparison.

I'm hoping this will change in the future, because it's really starting to get on my nerves. Characters who are totally different in size and style shouldn't fight exactly like one another, and should use more than a handful of moves.

dxsxhxcx
12-21-2013, 01:40 PM
IMO they should also make them shorter, sometimes I can stop what I'm doing to watch the character kill an enemy...

EchoFiveKilo
12-21-2013, 01:41 PM
I think AC3 did an excellent job with combat....there were so many combat animations (some even go unnoticed) like:

-'Escape from grab' animations
-Different kill animations for every weapon type as well as numerous double kill animations (for each weapon type also)
-Rope dart counter kill animations AND double kill animations
-Pistol counter kills AND double kills
-Snare/other tool kills
-Contextual kills (wall kills, edge of rooftop kills) AND mini cutscene kills e.g Haytham Barfight (slamming bottles, smashing into tables or Connor vs Haytham fight)
-Break defence animations
-Disarm animations
-Stealth AND high profile kills
-Kill animations for enemies that are lying on ground
-Blend with civilians kill animations

And probably more that I missed..I was excited to buy AC4 to see new combat but watching videos I continually saw MANY not just a few recycled animations. Very disappointing. I hope ACV can bring back the fun and awesomeness factor of AC3s combat. I think AC4 spent so much time on their naval combat that the actual hand to hand (the fun part of AC) combat went downhill.

ProletariatPleb
12-21-2013, 01:43 PM
IMO they should also make them shorter, sometimes I can stop what I'm doing to watch the character kill an enemy...
This. Enough with stabbing the same dude 10 times for "hurr so brutal! cinematic!"

ze_topazio
12-21-2013, 01:48 PM
Yeah, sometimes while playing AC3/4 i felt like i was playing Devil May Cry or something instead, do to how many times the enemy needs to be slashed, in previous games combat was direct to the point, kill the guy as fast as possible.

LoyalACFan
12-21-2013, 01:49 PM
This. Enough with stabbing the same dude 10 times for "hurr so brutal! cinematic!"

I've talked about this in another thread. I agree, but they could keep the lengthy ones to use for the final kill in a fight. Instead of just having a cinematic kill cam, they could have a whole set of "finisher" animations reserved for the final enemy. That way you get the dramatic kills without having to watch all the enemies stand idly by while you disembowel their friends.

EchoFiveKilo
12-21-2013, 01:51 PM
This. Enough with stabbing the same dude 10 times for "hurr so brutal! cinematic!"

But in making them shorter, the animation will just be a simple boring stab which will then make way for AC complainers to say "omg kill animation so boring". I do agree with making them shorter than AC4's but the cinematic aspect is what makes AC combat fun. Simple hacking and slashing where there were like 2 animations are thankfully gone.

ProletariatPleb
12-21-2013, 01:53 PM
I've talked about this in another thread. I agree, but they could keep the lengthy ones to use for the final kill in a fight. Instead of just having a cinematic kill cam, they could have a whole set of "finisher" animations reserved for the final enemy. That way you get the dramatic kills without having to watch all the enemies stand idly by while you disembowel their friends.
That's actually a pretty good idea.


But in making them shorter, the animation will just be a simple boring stab which will then make way for AC complainers to say "omg kill animation so boring". I do agree with making them shorter than AC4's but the cinematic aspect is what makes AC combat fun. Simple hacking and slashing where there were like 2 animations are thankfully gone.
There is a difference. In AC it just feels like a chain of animations, it doesn't seem like what it should be - solid combat mechanics reinforced by good animations.

LoyalACFan
12-21-2013, 01:54 PM
That's actually a pretty good idea.

I've been known to have them on rare occasion.

MIA SILENT
12-21-2013, 01:57 PM
I want to see 3-4 enemies attack in rapid succession and us having to press the counter button in rapid succession to deflect them. Pressing counter once when 2 enemies attack should be a thing of the past.

LoyalACFan
12-21-2013, 02:00 PM
But in making them shorter, the animation will just be a simple boring stab which will then make way for AC complainers to say "omg kill animation so boring". I do agree with making them shorter than AC4's but the cinematic aspect is what makes AC combat fun. Simple hacking and slashing where there were like 2 animations are thankfully gone.

But AC3/AC4 already have a bunch that are okay for the heat of combat. For instance, Connor's combat roll followed by a stab in the back with the tomahawk, or the hidden blade one where he just shoves it in their throat, kicks their leg out from under them and pushes them down. Short, sweet, and to the point. Unlike Edward's sword animations, i.e. the one where he knocks their sword away, grabs their arm, twists it backward, pushes them forward, punches them in the face with his pommel, stabs them in the neck, and lets them slide slowly off the end of it... while their compatriots do jack sh*t. Animations like that could be used for the "finisher" type moves I suggested above, but in the middle of a fight they're just silly.

dxsxhxcx
12-21-2013, 02:00 PM
But in making them shorter, the animation will just be a simple boring stab which will then make way for AC complainers to say "omg kill animation so boring". I do agree with making them shorter than AC4's but the cinematic aspect is what makes AC combat fun. Simple hacking and slashing where there were like 2 animations are thankfully gone.

the fun about the combat should be the combat itself (what's also suffering due to the lack of improvement on this area) and not the cinematic experience it might provide

LoyalACFan
12-21-2013, 02:01 PM
I want to see 3-4 enemies attack in rapid succession and us having to press the counter button in rapid succession to deflect them. Pressing counter once when 2 enemies attack should be a thing of the past.

It basically already is, I've only had enemies attack two at a time ONCE in AC4, except the times I deliberately prolonged fights just to see if I could trigger it.

oliacr
12-21-2013, 02:06 PM
I don't have any problems with the combat, I think we need a bit more animations and just that, the rest are pretty good

MIA SILENT
12-21-2013, 02:09 PM
It basically already is, I've only had enemies attack two at a time ONCE in AC4, except the times I deliberately prolonged fights just to see if I could trigger it.

True, but I have a feeling that after the bad reception to AC4' combat they're going to bring the double-kills back. I have no idea why they even near enough got rid of them. Also, I don't want them to be in some cinematic set piece like in AC3.

EchoFiveKilo
12-21-2013, 02:11 PM
But AC3/AC4 already have a bunch that are okay for the heat of combat. For instance, Connor's combat roll followed by a stab in the back with the tomahawk, or the hidden blade one where he just shoves it in their throat, kicks their leg out from under them and pushes them down. Short, sweet, and to the point. Unlike Edward's sword animations, i.e. the one where he knocks their sword away, grabs their arm, twists it backward, pushes them forward, punches them in the face with his pommel, stabs them in the neck, and lets them slide slowly off the end of it... while their compatriots do jack sh*t. Animations like that could be used for the "finisher" type moves I suggested above, but in the middle of a fight they're just silly.

Thats what I meant though, AC3 (save for a few moves) got it right when it came to speed. There were only a few 'lengthy' moves that wouldnt make sense when surrounded by enemies. But alot of Connors hidden blade and tomahawk moves were very fast and fluid which would make sense e.g the tomahawk roll. It would be very unexpected in a real fight and he does it to the side of the enemy exploiting a weak point. Just one of the reasons why AC3 combat was good; looked great, but from a practical standpoint, also made sense.

Also Jaegers and higher level enemies in AC3 would regularly try to disrupt you mid combat animation for the lengthy animations ie the musket animation where you strike them, strike them again with the rifle butt, then jump up in the air and bring it down on their head - that one 90% of the time gets interrupted by a Jaeger or officer, sometimes even the grunts - which at least adds realism, the only immersion breaking thing was that the enemy would do his death animation regardless, lol.

But try to see it this way, if you were in a fight with Connor and see multiple bodies lying around, and seeing him beat the sh%t out of your friends...you would probably be hesitant to attack him too.

SixKeys
12-21-2013, 02:18 PM
Combat has never been that interesting to me. The only thing that bugs me is the unnecessarily long kill animations and the way enemies still stand stupidly in line waiting for their turn. It looks more ridiculous in AC4 than ever. LoyalACFan's idea about saving the fancy animations for the last enemy sounds good. Maybe have it so that kill animations start out simple but the more kills you chain, the more brutal they get. This would mean more enemies attacking simultaneously, more skill needed to finish them off at the same time and the better you do, the better the kill animations would be. Imagine a situation like the training sims in Brotherhood where you could keep chaining attacks to your heart's content and the kills keep getting smoother and more cinematic.

pacmanate
12-21-2013, 02:25 PM
i hate how you can slash an enemy 4 times. Leave him for a while, slash him 4 more times, slash him more etc etc.

BASICALLY, I don't understand why they have set the damage to "Has to be a 5 combo in a row to kill" or whatever.

Also combat is too easy. Its just smash attack, or break defense smash attack. It's just boring.

ProletariatPleb
12-21-2013, 02:27 PM
i hate how you can slash an enemy 4 times. Leave him for a while, slash him 4 more times, slash him more etc etc.
Yeah, they should have some sort of predefined health multiplier, it doesn't have to be a visible bar over their heads but c'mon right now it's just....absurd.

pirate1802
12-21-2013, 03:54 PM
I want to see 3-4 enemies attack in rapid succession and us having to press the counter button in rapid succession to deflect them. Pressing counter once when 2 enemies attack should be a thing of the past.

Agreed. Counter kills, while looking cool, make combat way too easy. People said there were rarely any double counter kills in AC4 but really, whats the point of two enemies attacking at once when that makes your job even easier than those two attacking separately?

Imo, flashy counter kills should only be available when enemies are already low on health. Take away the 9000 times slashing kill animations and double counters should only deflect their attacks (or kill them if they are low on health.)

LoyalACFan
12-21-2013, 03:56 PM
People said there were rarely any double counter kills in AC4 but really, whats the point of two enemies attacking at once when that makes your job even easier than those two attacking separately?

I want multiple enemies to attack at once. Not necessarily for the easy one-button kill from AC3, but at least that would look better than them standing there doing nothing.

MnemonicSyntax
12-21-2013, 04:34 PM
The thing I hate about combat is that every character is "classed" for a specific combat set. Brutes you have to first break defense, then attack. Not everyone attacks the same way, you shouldn't be able to look at someone based on their clothing and know their attack pattern.

Also, with the double kills (not the counter kills, the double kills) you can actually keep chaining that, as long as you have the tool for it (not having to reload bullets, or if you have enough rope darts) though when you do the double tool kills, it actually doesn't "use" a rope dart from your inventory. I was killed 7 enemies chained together like this, using the first one to counter and then double tool killing the rest.

Perk89
12-21-2013, 07:18 PM
i think there is plenty of animations, the issue is the frequency with which we see them. For instance, how many of you know you could break someone's neck by running horizontally along a fence while holding onto his neck?

I saw that for the first time yesterday with Adewale.

Double counter kill animations are so rare in this game that I didn't even know they were in this game until after I completed the game entirely-every side quest, locale, everything-and came to this forum and saw others complaining that it wasn't in the game-turns out it is-the opportunity for it is just insanely rare.

As for the difficulty, I think it's fine. Series wouldn't be very plausible if our elite assassin had difficulty dispatching enemies in combat. It'd be like the original AC again. Infuriating with nobody really convinced Altair was all that good of a fighter.

Ubisoft has put in a lot of work into making Assassins some of the best warriors in the fictional universe, and they've earned that rep around the gamerverse.

MnemonicSyntax
12-21-2013, 07:24 PM
Even though double counter kills are rare, you can do double tool kills anytime you like as long as after your first counter kill there is a low level class enemy nearby to start the sequence.

So that kinda makes up for the double counter kill thing.

Perk89
12-21-2013, 07:28 PM
Even though double counter kills are rare, you can do double tool kills anytime you like as long as after your first counter kill there is a low level class enemy nearby to start the sequence.

So that kinda makes up for the double counter kill thing.

Didn't know this. Lot of things i didn't know in AC4, but it's better than a 6 sequence tutorial I suppose.

MnemonicSyntax
12-21-2013, 07:35 PM
Didn't know this. Lot of things i didn't know in AC4, but it's better than a 6 sequence tutorial I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiepNyZQFQs

You can chain them, too, again as long as the next person in the sequence is a low level enemy, and you're not, as you can see in the video, interrupted.

DarktheMagister
12-21-2013, 07:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiepNyZQFQs

You can chain them, too, again as long as the next person in the sequence is a low level enemy, and you're not, as you can see in the video, interrupted.

I've never seen that type of gun kill! What button combo is that?

MnemonicSyntax
12-21-2013, 08:00 PM
I've never seen that type of gun kill! What button combo is that?

After completing one counter kill, and then target a low level enemy and hold Y or Triangle. You can do it again, if you have bullets/rope darts and you again target a low level enemy, such as a Soldier or an Agile.

Perk89
12-21-2013, 11:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiepNyZQFQs

You can chain them, too, again as long as the next person in the sequence is a low level enemy, and you're not, as you can see in the video, interrupted.

That's awesome. Looking forward to my next playthrough. Waiting for all the pre order bonus DLC collection to crank it up.

Novagium
12-22-2013, 12:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiepNyZQFQs

You can chain them, too, again as long as the next person in the sequence is a low level enemy, and you're not, as you can see in the video, interrupted.

This is awesome. I'm gonna go back and incorporate this into every fight I get into.

aL_____eX
12-22-2013, 01:02 AM
When I realized how easy it is to do the double counter tool kills, I really could have kicked myself. especially when you're in a 5-6 man combat it's just the coolest way to get through it. Take out one guy, double kill 2 more, take out the next, double kill the others. And while fighting, trying to switch between pistols and rope darts. That's some real crazy finger acrobatics with the unhandy PS3 controller, but it's worth the trouble.

Thanks to the one who made me aware of this! Combat is so enjoyable since then!

MnemonicSyntax
12-22-2013, 01:03 AM
You're welcome :D

adventurewomen
12-22-2013, 03:51 AM
We REALLY need more animations.

Personally, I'm OK with the fight mechanics as they are. It's easy, yeah, but let's face it, with the expanding fanbase they're never going to make it all that challenging. But seriously, if we're relying on canned kill animations, there needs to be more than a dozen of them. Combat was the one thing I think AC3 did better than AC4; combat in 4 got boring pretty quick because you'd seen it all after three or four fights. It didn't help that most of the animations were recycled from AC3, including ALL of the fist, axe, and musket ones and about a third of the sword ones.

Aside from just having more of them in general, they need to stop reusing them from character to character. It was ridiculous how much they reused between AC1 and 2; Ezio barely had ANY new animations. I know it's easier on the devs to recycle assets like that, but some of Edward's sword moves look really silly after having been ported over from Connor's tomahawk. Even sillier that Adewale, a gigantic tank of a man who hacks people to pieces with a machete like they're made of paper, uses his hidden blades exactly like Edward, who looks like a bloody weed in comparison.

I'm hoping this will change in the future, because it's really starting to get on my nerves. Characters who are totally different in size and style shouldn't fight exactly like one another, and should use more than a handful of moves.
I agree with you I've noticed the same issues - the animations have been reused for other characters it's annoying! Yeah AC3 had better combat than AC4. I got really bored of Edward's duel swords, the animations got boring for those in combat.