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View Full Version : Crouching In ACV: Once And For All Petition



Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 04:16 AM
There are many people who think that ubisoft is just a money-obsessed company and nothing more. While They obviously think about business, I still think that they could listen to their fans if we all band together and voice ourselves enough. I think it is worth a try.

One of the most controversial topics here is about crouching. Some people think that the system is fine the way it is. But others think that in the next AC, there needs to be some sort of upgrade to the whole system. Before you think "oh its another one of these threads" just understand that this is supposed to take all the opinions spread out across the threads and put them together into one thread dedicated to the topic. With a simple poll, we can show ubisoft what our beliefs are, and they can see what their fans want. And God willing, they will listen to us. There is still almost a year until AC5 is released, so at least another 9-10 months before it enters its final build.


There have been a few ideas thrown around for a crouching system. Voice in the poll your general opinion of whether there should be SOME upgrade to the crouching system or not, but go into greater detail with posts below. Here are some of the ideas I have seen. Please feel free to add your own ideas.

1. Stay the same, but put back in the "crouching between stalking zones or a few sec after leaving them" feature back in the game.

2. Add a button to crouch, plain and simple.

3. No button, but in restricted areas, automatically take crouching cover behind low walls like Tomb Raider.

4. A "reduced noise" feature where you don't completely CROUCH, but move more quietly and stealthily. Basically like GTA 5. Some say this is more realistic than pure crouching.


Voice your opinion. Participate in the polls. It is time to see if ubisoft truly cares about its fans. It says in the support section that "fan suggested ideas have been used before in our games", so if that is true, then they should definitely at least consider the opinions of the forums users; the biggest fans of all.

If you view this thread, please take the time to at least vote in the poll. Whatever your opinion is, your opinion is valued.

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 04:20 AM
I voted yes, but I'm not sure what that "yes" is. Something should be done, regardless if it's a button, contextual, on a timer, whatever.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 04:23 AM
I voted yes, but I'm not sure what that "yes" is. Something should be done, regardless if it's a button, contextual, on a timer, whatever.

Aye. It means that something should be done to upgrade it, like one of the ideas below. If you want it to stay the same as AC4, then vote no.

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 04:33 AM
I agree with you Wolf my friend. The crouching needs to be improved for AC5. I voted yes. :)

Fatal-Feit
12-16-2013, 04:38 AM
And take out the 'grey' blending PoS and bring back the dynamic stealth in AC:3, please.

@Topic:

5. If crouch IS added, don't force the players to crouch when they're in a bush if they don't want to.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 04:39 AM
Wow! Already 7 voters! Keep up everyone and we might just convince ubi! I am so happy that you all are contributing! I thought many of you would just be annoyed that I made another crouch thread. Thanks you all eo much for your help!


Darby! If you are reading this, you might just get your renewed crouching system yet!!

Shahkulu101
12-16-2013, 04:40 AM
Yeah, needs development. Wasn't bad in AC4, just looked ridiculous that he'd stand up between stalking zones. It's a little conspicuous to come popping out of bushes.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 04:40 AM
I agree with you Wolf my friend. The crouching needs to be improved for AC5. I voted yes. :)

You are so damn sweet :)

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 04:48 AM
You are so damn sweet :)
You are as well! *hugs* :)

Fatal-Feit
12-16-2013, 04:50 AM
You are as well! *hugs* :)

And suddenly I'm imagining two Connors hugging.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 04:51 AM
You are as well! *hugs* :)

Btw, temporary off topic: you are native American?? Are you of Mohawk Heritage as well? That is so cool! I saw you say it in another thread! You must feel a certain connection to AC3's native characters lol (take that as least racistly as you can)

Shahkulu101
12-16-2013, 04:53 AM
Btw, temporary off topic: you are native American?? Are you of Mohawk Heritage as well? That is so cool! I saw you say it in another thread! You must feel a certain connection to AC3's native characters lol (take that as least racistly as you can)

You didn't realise haha

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 04:55 AM
And suddenly I'm imagining two Connors hugging.
Haha interesting imagination you have! :)


Btw, temporary off topic: you are native American?? Are you of Mohawk Heritage as well? That is so cool! I saw you say it in another thread! You must feel a certain connection to AC3's native characters lol (take that as least racistly as you can)
Yes I am of Mohawk heritage to be more precise I am - 1/2 Native Mohawk & Blackfoot. Yes I feel a certain connection and I take that dearly because AC3 means a lot to me. Thank you it means a lot to me, my friend! :)

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 05:08 AM
Haha interesting imagination you have! :)


Yes I am of Mohawk heritage to be more precise I am - 1/2 Native Mohawk & Blackfoot. Yes I feel a certain connection and I take that dearly because AC3 means a lot to me. Thank you it means a lot to me, my friend! :)

Did you just change your profile pic?? Love it!!

Btw, that is so cool. Most people who have native heritage are like "yeah I am 1/24th cherokkee indian so I am awesome" but you are the real thing!

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 05:15 AM
Did you just change your profile pic?? Love it!!

Btw, that is so cool. Most people who have native heritage are like "yeah I am 1/24th cherokkee indian so I am awesome" but you are the real thing!
Yeah I just did, Connor just decided to be in the festive mood for Christmas. :)

Yeah there are a lot of people who claim that, it's annoying. Thank you so much, I wish Connor were real because he'd be the perfect man to marry! Haha, I'll stop there. :)

Fatal-Feit
12-16-2013, 05:28 AM
Yeah I just did, Connor just decided to be in the festive mood for Christmas. :)

Yeah there are a lot of people who claim that, it's annoying. Thank you so much, I wish Connor were real because he'd be the perfect man to marry! Haha, I'll stop there. :)

Lol

If Connor was real, I'd without a doubt, gladly marry him. And I'm a man. Not that I don't already have a small crush on him.

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 05:42 AM
Lol

If Connor was real, I'd without a doubt, gladly marry him. And I'm a man. Not that I don't already have a small crush on him.
Aww thats sweet though. :)

You remind me of another forum member: RatonhnhakeFan (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1300267-RatonhnhakeFan?tab=friends#friends) he's also as much of a Connor fan as you are! :)

---------------------

Back to the topic on hand, I found that Edward's animations for crouching seemed to be missing animation frames this lead to an transition that was unsmooth and jumpy.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 05:43 AM
Lol

If Connor was real, I'd without a doubt, gladly marry him. And I'm a man. Not that I don't already have a small crush on him.

It is okay to get a mancrush! I dont know why so many of you men are too "manly" to say such things

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 05:46 AM
Aww thats sweet though. :)

You remind me of another forum member: RatonhnhakeFan (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1300267-RatonhnhakeFan?tab=friends#friends) he's also as much of a Connor fan as you are! :)

---------------------



Back to the topic on hand, I found that Edward's animations for crouching seemed to be missing animation frames this lead to an transition that was unsmooth and jumpy.

It could be fixed though. Darby said that the main reason with crouching is that some playtesters would be annoyed because they believe they are invisible when crouched.the detection rules on the game are that the guards can detect you if ANY of your body is visible to them. So some people would be crouched behind a wall, with the slightest bit of their head popping out, and they would be detected.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 05:46 AM
And suddenly I'm imagining two Connors hugging.

Wait what?

Anyway I vote for a combination of 3 and 4. Contextual + some way to make your guy walk as a silent ghost among men, like assassins are supposed to.

SixKeys
12-16-2013, 05:47 AM
Voted no. Most games I've played that have a crouch option, it sucks. In AC it would just look stupid.

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 05:49 AM
It could be fixed though. Darby said that the main reason with crouching is that some playtesters would be annoyed because they believe they are invisible when crouched.the detection rules on the game are that the guards can detect you if ANY of your body is visible to them. So some people would be crouched behind a wall, with the slightest bit of their head popping out, and they would be detected.
Thanks for the information, playtesters should have done their job properly paid attention. Yeah the crouching animations can be easily fixed with a patch.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 05:51 AM
Voted no. Most games I've played that have a crouch option, it sucks. In AC it would just look stupid.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 05:55 AM
it sucks. In AC it would just look stupid.

Look at Stede Bonnet as he ran through the streets crouched. Imagine how awesome Edward would have looked in that same position :p

SixKeys
12-16-2013, 05:57 AM
Look at Stede Bonnet as he ran through the streets crouched. Imagine how awesome Edward would have looked in that same position :p

^^ Exactly.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 06:00 AM
^^ Exactly.

It would look stupid in crowds, sure. But in enemy forts, plantations, and in the wilderness? In restricted areas? No.

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 06:05 AM
Look at Stede Bonnet as he ran through the streets crouched. Imagine how awesome Edward would have looked in that same position :p
Haha!

I remember that Agent.47 in BloodMoney could crouch through crowds that looked stupid.

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 06:42 AM
"I want less control over my akshunn advenchurr game because I can use it to create awkward moments."
http://i.minus.com/ibxycZ7S8aLKL9.jpg

Reminds me of the devs of the ****ty casual abomination reboot they're calling Thief. "Jumping breaks immersion, so it's now a contextual action."
because somehow having a button prompt when you can jump is less immersion breaking.

Wolfmeister1010
12-16-2013, 06:44 AM
"I want less control over my akshunn advenchurr game because I can use it to create awkward moments."
http://i.minus.com/ibxycZ7S8aLKL9.jpg

Reminds me of the devs of the ****ty casual abomination reboot they're calling Thief. "Jumping breaks immersion, so it's now a contextual action."
because somehow having a button prompt when you can jump is less immersion breaking.

THANK you. Giving people more control over their character never hurts

Kagurra
12-16-2013, 06:54 AM
"I want less control over my akshunn advenchurr game because I can use it to create awkward moments."
http://i.minus.com/ibxycZ7S8aLKL9.jpg

Reminds me of the devs of the ****ty casual abomination reboot they're calling Thief. "Jumping breaks immersion, so it's now a contextual action."
because somehow having a button prompt when you can jump is less immersion breaking.

I knowww... I was so excited for Thief, and then I saw gameplay. Ugh. Looks like nothing special at all.

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 06:59 AM
I knowww... I was so excited for Thief, and then I saw gameplay. Ugh. Looks like nothing special at all.
Oh don't get me started on Thief, the best stealth franchise to ever exist, miles ahead in technology than even most of today's games...just thrown to the dogs :mad:...besides it would be offtopic.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:04 AM
It would look stupid in crowds, sure. But in enemy forts, plantations, and in the wilderness? In restricted areas? No.

Which is why I say yes to contextual couch and maybe a silent walk button. It would give you all the above situations you desire, without looking stupid like pointed out above.

pacmanate
12-16-2013, 07:32 AM
Yes it does need to be in, but only if there is a sound system, otherwise it kind of makes no sense to crouch other than hide a little bit.

Kagurra
12-16-2013, 07:39 AM
Yes it does need to be in, but only if there is a sound system, otherwise it kind of makes no sense to crouch other than hide a little bit.

Running right up on dudes is a bit silly. It makes sense if you're in a crowded street, but otherwise, not so much.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:42 AM
Which is why, I said they'd better invest in a sound system than a crouch system. Without that, crouching would be for aesthetic values at best.

pacmanate
12-16-2013, 07:46 AM
Running right up on dudes is a bit silly. It makes sense if you're in a crowded street, but otherwise, not so much.

Why is why a sound system needs to go along side it...

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 08:00 AM
*******, this is what I was saying yesterday all day, and I felt like a ****** for not supporting a crouch button alone. :/

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 08:04 AM
Why is why a sound system needs to go along side it...
I have no idea what that sentence means.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 08:05 AM
Which* is why..

Btw Sid yesterday I listened to those dancers in Nassau, they were assuring me how well they were informed on all "****"ry matters lawl

pacmanate
12-16-2013, 09:12 AM
I have no idea what that sentence means.

I just woke up when I wrote that :p

phoenix-force411
12-16-2013, 09:13 AM
Although I think the button to display the current location's side activities and stuff is helpful, it really is a useless feature and best saved for the pause screen. Let's just say it takes too much space for its own use. Crouching button should have been that button.

DinoSteve1
12-16-2013, 09:32 AM
It has to be option number 2. Add a button to crouch, plain and simple. I don't understand why this bother some people, if you don't want to crouch than don;t, why ruin it for those that do want the option.

Sushiglutton
12-16-2013, 12:01 PM
Voted "yes", but like I said in the other thread I don't think it's important as I did a while back. Stalking zones, hiding spots, corner cover and hanging from roofs allready provide a lot of ways to stay out of site. I also feel like AC has more fast paced, agile stealth than most stealth games.

As for implementing a sound detection system: Please don't! It's perfectly fine (mandatory even) that guards react to stuff like gunshots. But I'd prefer if they never hear the assassin move. What can be heard is much less clear to the player than what can be seen (unless it's specific actions, like explosives). It just muddles the detection rules. I think stealth games are better the clearer the rules are. For examle I really enjoyed Mark of the Ninja. A big part of why that game was so fun was its distinct ruleset.

Implementing a sound detection system just so they can add a counter in the form of crouching would be horrible imo.

Farlander1991
12-16-2013, 12:06 PM
Implementing a sound detection system just so they can add a counter in the form of crouching would be horrible imo.

By Odin's beard, is this a design principle/decision that we agree on?! O_O WOW! Didn't expect that!

...

J/k. I think there are quite a few things we agree on. ... ... ... Just can't remember any at the moment, but I'm sure there were, we don't spend all the time arguing, do we? :p

Sushiglutton
12-16-2013, 12:19 PM
By Odin's beard, is this a design principle/decision that we agree on?! O_O WOW! Didn't expect that!

...

J/k. I think there are quite a few things we agree on. ... ... ... Just can't remember any at the moment, but I'm sure there were, we don't spend all the time arguing, do we? :p

I think we agree on most things tbh, but it's no fun just padding each others backs :). So typically we pick out the one thing we disagree on and go to town.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 12:53 PM
Like every self-respecting forumer should!

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 01:35 PM
AC needs a crouch button, it's much better than contextual, it allows the player to silently approach targets and it makes navigation less automatic. Seriously, why force the player to crouch in specific spots when you can have the option to completely control the action? Besides, contextual crouch doesnít allow the assassin to crouch for the actual reason that people crouch (to make less noise). Everything that contextual crouch does, a crouch button does better while adding more control and more purpose.



Reminds me of the devs of the ****ty casual abomination reboot they're calling Thief. "Jumping breaks immersion, so it's now a contextual action."
because somehow having a button prompt when you can jump is less immersion breaking.
Yeah, I hated that they got rid of the jump button...but I still don't think it will be such a casual abomination. Sure, it has focus mode, Stephen Russell doesn't voice Garret, the style and presentation of the game are very different from the originals (which were darker and more charismatic) but at least, it still has supernatural elements (as shown in one of the latest trailers), a dark theme and some interesting features. I mean, it is nowhere as brilliant as the others but hey, compared to most games out there, it is far from casual. The whole gaming industry is pretty ****y now, Thief is simply another victim, just like AC. Still, compared to the fakeness that is this franchise, the Thief reboot is still pretty sweet.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 02:17 PM
Voted for "no". I find that numbers 1, 2 and 4 of the suggestions are simply franchise killers, while number 3 will end up being either scripted or messy. I also do not understand the obsession of the some of the people, who want to turn Assassin's Creed into something that it is not and that was never meant to be.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 02:25 PM
Voted for "no". I find that numbers 1, 2 and 4 of the suggestions are simply franchise killers, while number 3 will end up being either scripted or messy. I also do not understand the obsession of the some of the people, who want to turn Assassin's Creed into something that it is not and that was never meant to be.

*claps*

Farlander1991
12-16-2013, 02:32 PM
*waits for posts explaining what Assassin's Creed was always CLEARLY meant to be without a shadow of a doubt and grabs some popcorn*

thekyle0
12-16-2013, 02:33 PM
Seriously? Crouching is controversial? Not the systemic decline of quality? Not the rampant bugs? What about the exploitative amount of DLC and preorder bonuses they cut out of the actual game? or gameplay designed for the most casual of casuals?

AC has so many damn problems, and hoods and crouching are the least of them.

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 02:38 PM
Seriously? Crouching is controversial? Not the systemic decline of quality? Not the rampant bugs? What about the exploitative amount of DLC and preorder bonuses they cut out of the actual game? or gameplay designed for the most casual of casuals?

AC has so many damn problems, and hoods and crouching are the least of them.
None of those are going anywhere with the current fanbase and that changing is neigh impossible...soo yeah.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 02:47 PM
It has to be option number 2. Add a button to crouch, plain and simple. I don't understand why this bother some people, if you don't want to crouch than don;t, why ruin it for those that do want the option.
The implementation of such a radical change in the gameplay mechanics is not as simple as "do it or if you don't like it, don't".
Bringing crouching to an AC game will require fundamental changes in the mission design. That is because, at its current state, Assassin's Creed missions are built around the low and high profile mechanics. Right now, there is not a single mission in all 6 games in which you could use crouching as a means for better stealth. Crouching could only be as good as a visual animation to increase the immersion of the gameplay. However, it could not have any practical value.
Should the developers decide to ram a third profile - that of crouching - among the 2 previous profiles (high and low), the next AC game will have to be changed drastically to its very core, so that its mission design supports the new mechanic. By then, the classic stealth sequences we know from the previous AC games will have been greatly altered.
Therefore, the question "crouching or not" is far more important than most people in this thread realise. Because, what we truly need to talk about is whether we want a different stealth system - and thus a different approach in stealth - or we want the developer team to keep emphasising in the existing system and continue giving us AC2 and AC4-like Assassination and Stealth missions.

My personal view on the subject is that crouching does not make a game stealthy (or even stealthier), neither is it necessary to deliver a stealth experience. Back in 1999, the crouching mechanic could have been a great innovation, but, nowadays the elements that made the Assassin's Creed franchise stand out of all the rest action stealth franchises do not come from obsolete and recycled mechanics we find in every single game. What made Assassin's Creed (especially AC1, 2, BH and 4) great was the creation, the support and the evolution of stealth and combat systems which are interonnected, fluid and captivating. I want the developer team to keep working and building on that system to make it flawless and challenging. I wouldn't like them to spend precious developing time on changing the existing system or trying to figure out a way to put in it something that does not organically belong there.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 02:48 PM
Seriously? Crouching is controversial? Not the systemic decline of quality? Not the rampant bugs? What about the exploitative amount of DLC and preorder bonuses they cut out of the actual game? or gameplay designed for the most casual of casuals?
No, those aren't controversial, they are clearly good things. People like their yearly crap.


AC has so many damn problems, and hoods and crouching are the least of them.
There is only one problem, the audience they're targeting. These aren't problems to them, hence the problem.




None of those are going anywhere with the current fanbase and that changing is neigh impossible...soo yeah.
Sad truth.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 02:52 PM
*waits for posts explaining what Assassin's Creed was always CLEARLY meant to be without a shadow of a doubt and grabs some popcorn*
I will unfortunately disappoint you, since there is not going to be such a post (not from me at least :P).
What I have to say, however, is that in many cases you cannot say what something is with certainty, but you can safely say what something is not. This is a common truth in many social and physical phenomena.

Farlander1991
12-16-2013, 02:54 PM
I will unfortunately disappoint you, since there is not going to be such a post (not from me at least :P).

Well, I didn't mean you :p (why would I mean you since you wrote that post in the first place and my reply implied a reply to that post? :p )

shobhit7777777
12-16-2013, 02:55 PM
This is a hard question to answer

Assassin's Creed is a game designed for social stealth, rooted in urban camouflage and blending, its AI behaviour is geared towards a more urban stealth experience and yet the bulk of "Stealth" gameplay and mechanics that we've seen incorporated are geared towards something out of Splinter Cell or Farcry.

This puts me and the devs in a quandary.

If they decide to continue to focus on the more traditional stealth, then yes....we need crouching. However, do I WANT them to focus on bush hiding? Nope.

The franchise won't need crouching or bush-hiding or corner covers if the mission design team at Ubi decides to go for the original concept of social stealth in favour of a more MGS type sneaking experience.

However, this seems highly unlikely since the terms "Stealth" - for the developers- has become synonymous with hiding in foliage. Therefore, I have no option but to vote Yes. If you want to do classic sneaking right....you need crouch.
if you're doing classic stealth - you need enhanced AI detection in terms of sound and sight.

I don't see the above happening.

The least I can hope for is a contextual cover system which accomodates low walls.

The best I can hope for is missions set in urban, crowded areas to make the social stealth approach viable and interesting.

Ultimately the devs have to decide what game they want to make.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 02:58 PM
No, those aren't controversial, they are clearly good things. People like their yearly crap.
I do not agree with this particular statement. As a fan since 2009, I feel that Assassin's Creed 4, despite all the crap I had read about it in these forums during 2013, stands out as probably the best or the best after AC2.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 02:59 PM
Well, I didn't mean you :p (why would I mean you since you wrote that post in the first place and my reply implied a reply to that post? :p )

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that someone would ask me and I would have to answer something completely ridiculous about the mission of AC on Earth :P .

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 03:03 PM
I do not agree with this particular statement. As a fan since 2009, I feel that Assassin's Creed 4, despite all the crap I had read about it in these forums during 2013, stands out as probably the best or the best after AC2.
Only took them 3 games right? That was the point.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 03:08 PM
If they decide to continue to focus on the more traditional stealth, then yes....we need crouching. However, do I WANT them to focus on bush hiding? Nope.

The franchise won't need crouching or bush-hiding or corner covers if the mission design team at Ubi decides to go for the original concept of social stealth in favour of a more MGS type sneaking experience.

However, this seems highly unlikely...
Exactly, that is the questioning at hand. I do not agree with you on the point of social stealth though. I believe that even when social stealth is out of the equation, Assassin's Creed does not need crouching. [SPOILERS FOR AC4:] Think of the mission where you pursue the double of Torres in Havanna. There is literally not a single NPC on the streets. However, it was a very good and rich stealth mission: target locating, tailing, infiltration, target locating, assassination, boss fight. [END OF SPOILER] That is a great example of a mission to show that Assassin's Creed utilises its mechanics wonderfully in both social and contextual stealth.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 03:14 PM
Only took them 3 games right? That was the point.

Yeah, you are right in this one, Sid. But, I believe we shouldn't blame annualisation for that. Revelations was developed for 2 years and was released on 2011, 3 was developed for 3 years and was released a year later, 4 was developed for 2 years and was released a year later. Same time periods, different results. There is a reason for that and we should focus on trying to find that one out, rather than having annualisation as a scapegoat.
Do not take my statement personally, of course, man. It's just a personal belief open for judgement. You know I respect you and your opinions.

thekyle0
12-16-2013, 03:15 PM
I understand the target audience is part of the problem, but at some point you have to acknowledge that the developers and publisher are just as responsible as the mouth-breathers.

Farlander1991
12-16-2013, 03:18 PM
Yeah, you are right in this one, Sid. But, I believe we shouldn't blame annualisation for that. Revelations was developed for 2 years and was released on 2011, 3 was developed for 3 years and was released a year later, 4 was developed for 2 years and was released a year later. Same time periods, different results. There is a reason for that and we should focus on trying to find that one out, rather than having annualisation as a scapegoat.
Do not take my statement personally, of course, man. It's just a personal belief open for judgement. You know I respect you and your opinions.

Revelations was developed for 11 months. It was supposed to be a 3DS game called Lost Legacy, but then the 3DS game was cancelled and after a bit of time Revelations development started.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 03:18 PM
*stops using mouth to breath*

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 03:20 PM
I understand the target audience is part of the problem, but at some point you have to acknowledge that the developers and publisher are just as responsible as the mouth-breathers.
Well that was the point, they're targeting the lowest common denominator, it's not gonna change. I'm blaming them not the audience as such.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 03:24 PM
Well that was the point, they're targeting the lowest common denominator, it's not gonna change. I'm blaming them not the audience as such.

Precisely!

Sushiglutton
12-16-2013, 03:28 PM
Well that was the point, they're targeting the lowest common denominator, it's not gonna change. I'm blaming them not the audience as such.

I haven't given up on a difficulty setting though. It could happen! Even if the vast majority are casuals I bet there's still over a million of more experienced gamers. That's a fairly large group of people who are understimulated by the current level of challenge. It's not impossible that this will be adressed at some point.

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 03:41 PM
*claps*

Indeed.


*waits for posts explaining what Assassin's Creed was always CLEARLY meant to be without a shadow of a doubt and grabs some popcorn*

Don't forget the comparison to AC1 in all it's glory of stealth, navigation and combat used as an example!

ProletariatPleb
12-16-2013, 03:49 PM
combat used as an example!
Don't see the problem.

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 03:50 PM
Don't see the problem.

It was more in reference to the "3 core pillars" that have magically existed since AC1.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 03:57 PM
Don't see the problem.

I don't see the problem with navigation either. At least AC1's navigation wasn't automatic or boring/casual as it is now. Oh, and stealth has evolved so much after 6 games being claimed to be a core pillar.

Edit: It's not like social stealth worked better in AC1 or anything. What a franchise this is...ahah

thekyle0
12-16-2013, 04:58 PM
*stops using mouth to breath*
Let me give you a hand there my poor, simple pirate1802.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouth+breather


Don't forget the comparison to AC1 in all it's glory of stealth, navigation and combat used as an example!
The reason AC1 and AC2 get a break is because it was the last time they actually tried. Since then there has been no apparent trace of sincerity outside of Ubisoft's bloated PR-hype machine. They get away with it because Lenny just doesn't know the difference. He just wants to believe crouching and hoods are the only thing keeping this franchise from being perfect.

For those running to google that was an Of Mice and Men slam.

AherasSTRG
12-16-2013, 05:17 PM
Let me give you a hand there my poor, simple pirate1802.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouth+breather


The reason AC1 and AC2 get a break is because it was the last time they actually tried. Since then there has been no apparent trace of sincerity outside of Ubisoft's bloated PR-hype machine. They get away with it because Lenny just doesn't know the difference. He just wants to believe crouching and hoods are the only thing keeping this franchise from being perfect.

For those running to google that was an Of Mice and Men slam.
I keep thinking AC4 was a top-notch game. :rolleyes:

thekyle0
12-16-2013, 05:29 PM
I keep thinking AC4 was a top-notch game. :rolleyes:

Haha, of course. How about that shoot-the-friendly-standing-right-in-front-of-you AI? or the attack-me-one-at-a-time-when-completely-surrounded combat system? Truly revolutionary.

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 05:35 PM
Let me give you a hand there my poor, simple pirate1802.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mouth+breather


The reason AC1 and AC2 get a break is because it was the last time they actually tried. Since then there has been no apparent trace of sincerity outside of Ubisoft's bloated PR-hype machine. They get away with it because Lenny just doesn't know the difference. He just wants to believe crouching and hoods are the only thing keeping this franchise from being perfect.

For those running to google that was an Of Mice and Men slam.

That's not what I was referring to at all. People like AssassinHMS state what "Assassin's Creed was meant to be" yet use the first one as the "best example" for the 3 core pillars.

People have this idea of what Assassin's Creed is supposed to be, yet it's not what we received.


Haha, of course. How about that shoot-the-friendly-standing-right-in-front-of-you AI? or the attack-me-one-at-a-time-when-completely-surrounded combat system? Truly revolutionary.

They don't attack one at a time. In 4, they interrupt attacks quite often.

This video proves that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiepNyZQFQs

Shahkulu101
12-16-2013, 05:39 PM
Self righteous, entitled hardcore players scoffing at casuals thread.

Bastiaen
12-16-2013, 05:53 PM
I really don't care about this feature. I don't see how this will add something to the game. Want crouching? Play Splinter Cell.

I do, however remember in one of the original AC1 demos, how amazing Altair looked as he stealthily crouched behind a rooftop archer before assassinating him. All this brings to the series is aesthetics. It's non essential, but I would welcome it if this were to happen.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 06:35 PM
I really don't care about this feature. I don't see how this will add something to the game. Want crouching? Play Splinter Cell.

I do, however remember in one of the original AC1 demos, how amazing Altair looked as he stealthily crouched behind a rooftop archer before assassinating him. All this brings to the series is aesthetics. It's non essential, but I would welcome it if this were to happen.

That was and still is, the best assassination I have ever seen in AC. Back then, it almost looked like stealth would be deep and fun.
Anyway, crouch has a real and crucial function. Do you know why people crouch when they sneak up on someone? Because, when you crouch, you absorb the weight with your knees, you engage every muscle of your body which means you exert less force with each footstep making you walk almost soundlessly. That is why Altair crouched on that demo when he was nearing the target. That is why every other stealth game out there has crouch.

Do you think you can casually walk right behind someone and you wonít get detected? Or worse, run and jump right behind a guard like in AC4BFF. The core mechanics are hugely underdeveloped and they all need to become deeper. Crouch makes stealth deeper. Sure, it has no place in social stealth but I donít see anyone complaining about an assassin hiding in bushes and AC1ís demo proves that AC isnít only about social stealth.
The concept of AC puts the player in the shoes of the assassin (like some developers said a long time ago in some interview). That means one of ACís goals is to make the player think like an assassin so that he can feel like one. What an assassin does, is to use stealth (any kind of stealth) in order to get to the target and proceed to escape. That is the Assassinís motto (infiltration, assassination, escape) and, in order to do this, they investigate first.
Ac1ís demo showed Altair crouching, which is necessary when an assassin wants to approach someone silently and not simply because it looks cool (for aesthetic purposes).

GreySkellig
12-16-2013, 07:21 PM
I voted yes, because I think a crouch button would improve both the mechanical stealth and the assassin roleplay of the series.

That said, I'm with Shahkulu...the AC franchise is enormous, and has a pretty wide fanbase. Asking for improvements is one thing, but a lot of the hardcores on this forum act as if there's some holy and immutable definition of what AC was always destined to be. If you don't love the direction the series has taken (as I don't) then petition and hope for better, but don't make out as if you, the true heirs of AC, have somehow been robbed of your birthright by the series' increasingly mainstream approach. Hardcore stealth is a niche genre. You love it, I love it, but it's already a crowded market and Ubisoft is going to cater to action-adventure fans. The more mainstream a franchise gets (with some exceptions), the less it tends to focus on hardcore elements and instead plays up the action. It's unfortunate, but it sells games.

Reading these forums is growing more and more like watching a bunch of folks raging that CoD doesn't play more like Arma. If you want a more stealth-heavy emphasis, there's always Dishonored, Hitman, Metal Gear (shudder), the upcoming Thief, and Ubi's own Splinter Cell...or heck, maybe one of these days Ubisoft will ramp up the realism and difficulty. But until then, the main thing the hardcore groaning accomplishes is to make these forums look to Ubisoft like an isolated handful of ultra-fans who don't share the same tastes as the broader market. Which...we kind of are.

tl/dr: Crouching is cool, elitism is not.

STDlyMcStudpants
12-16-2013, 07:31 PM
No. What I want to see done is an AC that perfects its current systems before adding more. The series needs help with character development, combat, and mission design. That's all they should focus on for now.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 07:56 PM
I voted yes, because I think a crouch button would improve both the mechanical stealth and the assassin roleplay of the series.

That said, I'm with Shahkulu...the AC franchise is enormous, and has a pretty wide fanbase. Asking for improvements is one thing, but a lot of the hardcores on this forum act as if there's some holy and immutable definition of what AC was always destined to be. If you don't love the direction the series has taken (as I don't) then petition and hope for better, but don't make out as if you, the true heirs of AC, have somehow been robbed of your birthright by the series' increasingly mainstream approach. Hardcore stealth is a niche genre. You love it, I love it, but it's already a crowded market and Ubisoft is going to cater to action-adventure fans. The more mainstream a franchise gets (with some exceptions), the less it tends to focus on hardcore elements and instead plays up the action. It's unfortunate, but it sells games.

Reading these forums is growing more and more like watching a bunch of folks raging that CoD doesn't play more like Arma. If you want a more stealth-heavy emphasis, there's always Dishonored, Hitman, Metal Gear (shudder), the upcoming Thief, and Ubi's own Splinter Cell...or heck, maybe one of these days Ubisoft will ramp up the realism and difficulty. But until then, the main thing the hardcore groaning accomplishes is to make these forums look to Ubisoft like an isolated handful of ultra-fans who don't share the same tastes as the broader market. Which...we kind of are.

tl/dr: Crouching is cool, elitism is not.

Elitism?? We are just asking for balance and for the recognition of the actual franchise. Yes, the actual franchise, the core mechanics not the additions (like naval and whatnot), the mystery, the conspiracies, the puzzles and the atmosphere.

Extremists are those who don't want balance, who want combat to be all-powerful and take all the challenge, all the fun, all the tension and excitement from stealth, escape and combat itself.
Look at what this casualty has done to AC, the core is miserable while even the additions are well developed, there is no tension, fear or fun.

All we want is an AC game that actually puts you in the shoes of an assassin and that has deep and balanced core mechanics. Too much to ask? Probably, since this franchise is overwhelmed with people who only want mindless fun, explosion, cheap action and who donít actually care about playing as an assassin (investigating, thinking, planning, sneaking, assassinating and escaping). All they want is to feel badass and watch some historical characters, no fear, no immersion, no mystery, no thought, just action and adventure at the expense of the franchise. And we are the extremists? The elitists? But go ahead and tell that there is no definition of AC or that it is just historical tourism with Assassins thrown into it plus naval and Hulk like superpowers.

DinoSteve1
12-16-2013, 08:07 PM
tbh the core of AC is the templer vs Assassin fight, everything else is ********, as long as it has Templers vs Assassins you can call it Assassins Creed.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 08:18 PM
tbh the core of AC is the templer vs Assassin fight, everything else is ********, as long as it has Templers vs Assassins you can call it Assassins Creed.

Apparently. Well, nothing is true and everything is permitted when money is involved, I guess.

itsamea-mario
12-16-2013, 08:28 PM
Is there something special about you that makes your petition the final and therefore most important?

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 08:45 PM
Elitism?? We are just asking for balance and for the recognition of the actual franchise. Yes, the actual franchise, the core mechanics not the additions (like naval and whatnot), the mystery, the conspiracies, the puzzles and the atmosphere.

Extremists are those who don't want balance, who want combat to be all-powerful and take all the challenge, all the fun, all the tension and excitement from stealth, escape and combat itself.
Look at what this casualty has done to AC, the core is miserable while even the additions are well developed, there is no tension, fear or fun.

All we want is an AC game that actually puts you in the shoes of an assassin and that has deep and balanced core mechanics. Too much to ask? Probably, since this franchise is overwhelmed with people who only want mindless fun, explosion, cheap action and who don’t actually care about playing as an assassin (investigating, thinking, planning, sneaking, assassinating and escaping). All they want is to feel badass and watch some historical characters, no fear, no immersion, no mystery, no thought, just action and adventure at the expense of the franchise. And we are the extremists? The elitists? But go ahead and tell that there is no definition of AC or that it is just historical tourism with Assassins thrown into it plus naval and Hulk like superpowers.

You say "we" but time and again, people don't want your hardcore "realistic" AC.

You want things to have different carry weights, which in turn affects how fast you can walk/run/swim, (Skyrim) a liight/shadow system for stealth, (Thief) cloaks to hide crossbows, canes to hide swords, combat that only allows you to "deal with four or less" enemies otherwise you have to run and hide (navigation and stealth), you want to force people to run away, and you don't want people to use hidden blades in regular combat either, and you keep saying how Assassin's Creed has "changed" for the mainstream "dumb dumbs" yet... it hasn't it's been the same way since day one, only improved on different aspects.

You can still leave piles of bodies on the ground, navigation was crap and stealth didn't exist.

Just because you don't want the naval, explosions etc. doesn't make it any less Assassin's Creed. Ezio blew TONS of things up on a consistent basis.

Running and hiding isn't fun. I can do that in real life. I cannot take down a load of people with fluid counter kills and combos. I cannot sail a ship. I cannot swing from a rope.

The definition of Assassin's Creed is what Ubisoft deems it to be, regardless of what you think it should be. I've keep telling you this, but you keep thinking you're the solution. Your ideas will kill the franchise, but hey, games are all about realism, right?

And remember folks, he hasn't even played 4 yet. Some of his issues have been resolved in 4 alone.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 09:01 PM
You say "we" but time and again, people don't want your hardcore "realistic" AC.

You want things to have different carry weights, which in turn affects how fast you can walk/run/swim, (Skyrim) a liight/shadow system for stealth, (Thief) cloaks to hide crossbows, canes to hide swords, combat that only allows you to "deal with four or less" enemies otherwise you have to run and hide (navigation and stealth), you want to force people to run away, and you don't want people to use hidden blades in regular combat either, and you keep saying how Assassin's Creed has "changed" for the mainstream "dumb dumbs" yet... it hasn't it's been the same way since day one, only improved on different aspects.

You can still leave piles of bodies on the ground, navigation was crap and stealth didn't exist.

Just because you don't want the naval, explosions etc. doesn't make it any less Assassin's Creed. Ezio blew TONS of things up on a consistent basis.

Running and hiding isn't fun. I can do that in real life. I cannot take down a load of people with fluid counter kills and combos. I cannot sail a ship. I cannot swing from a rope.

The definition of Assassin's Creed is what Ubisoft deems it to be, regardless of what you think it should be. I've keep telling you this, but you keep thinking you're the solution. Your ideas will kill the franchise, but hey, games are all about realism, right?

And remember folks, he hasn't even played 4 yet. Some of his issues have been resolved in 4 alone.

Stop blabbering. This isn't even hardcore but it sure isn't the super casual mess that it is now. And don’t bring other conversations from other threads to this one in an attempt to change subject.

Oh, and please, stop claiming no one wants what I want. Lots and lots of people want this and I'm not in a league of my own, I'm in the same page of many other elements of this Forum such as sidspyker24 or Landruner.
So next time, find a real excuse.

itsamea-mario
12-16-2013, 09:03 PM
I want a realistic AC, just saying.



Just ya know, when i think "Assassin" i don't think of some bloke wiping out 100 guys like it's nothing..

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 09:04 PM
It doesn't change the fact you think your answer is the end all to be all. It's not. Bottom line.

Which is why I brought other threads into this, because you keep saying the same thing. Your ideas are just ideas. Get off your high horse son.

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 09:05 PM
I want a realistic AC, just saying.



Just ya know, when i think "Assassin" i don't think of some bloke wiping out 100 guys like it's nothing..

Because close quarters combat where such a thing is totally improbable, right? :)

itsamea-mario
12-16-2013, 09:09 PM
http://rationaloptimist.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/high-horse.jpg

Yeah, i totally hear about all those times some guy took on 30 guys in the open and just cut through them all.

Kagurra
12-16-2013, 09:17 PM
http://rationaloptimist.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/high-horse.jpg

Yeah, i totally hear about all those times some guy took on 30 guys in the open and just cut through them all.

Now if he had some visible cuts and was bloodied up, and looked like he took that "last stand" so to say as you see in some movies, then taking on that very large number of enemies would be interesting and way more realistic.

To add this into actual gameplay, let's say for the next game which they've said will be way more next-gen like, add in visible character wounds, and if your health drops beyond a certain point you can't regen it. Instead you need to find a secluded place (I guess you don't need to if there are no more dudes left in the area) and bandage yourself. Then it'll slowly regenerate after that. Boom, magical idea. Give me money please Ubi.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 09:24 PM
It doesn't change the fact you think your answer is the end all to be all. It's not. Bottom line.

Which is why I brought other threads into this, because you keep saying the same thing. Your ideas are just ideas. Get off your high horse son.


This high horse you speak of is called ground, you're simply beneath it.

MnemonicSyntax
12-16-2013, 09:46 PM
Wow. So arrogant. Not only are you conceited, you're convinced.

Well, when the next AC isn't as real as you want it to be, cry some moar!


Now if he had some visible cuts and was bloodied up, and looked like he took that "last stand" so to say as you see in some movies, then taking on that very large number of enemies would be interesting and way more realistic.

To add this into actual gameplay, let's say for the next game which they've said will be way more next-gen like, add in visible character wounds, and if your health drops beyond a certain point you can't regen it. Instead you need to find a secluded place (I guess you don't need to if there are no more dudes left in the area) and bandage yourself. Then it'll slowly regenerate after that. Boom, magical idea. Give me money please Ubi.

This has been a thing since Fable. Shouldn't require next gen at all. In fact, that was two gens ago.

Fatal-Feit
12-16-2013, 10:14 PM
Is it that goofy looking for an Assassin to crouch behind a short wall, fence, bush, crates, or a table? It adds to the stealth. I fail to see the point in not having the option to crouch.

Landruner
12-16-2013, 11:08 PM
Crouching option as long as they caliber the AI corresponding to the fact of not being seeing (or almost not being seen) while crouching in consequence and accordingly of course.

Kagurra
12-17-2013, 12:08 AM
This has been a thing since Fable. Shouldn't require next gen at all. In fact, that was two gens ago.

Right, but I mean rather detailed version with bleeding wounds, not bloody wounds. Tears in clothing, etc. They'd obviously have to make some tweaks to the combat itself for this to make more sense.

SixKeys
12-17-2013, 12:46 AM
Right, but I mean rather detailed version with bleeding wounds, not bloody wounds. Tears in clothing, etc. They'd obviously have to make some tweaks to the combat itself for this to make more sense.

This would be annoying IMO as it would mean our outfits would keep getting more and more worn out. By the end of the game we'd have gotten in so many fights we'd barely have a single thread left hanging on our torso. If you wanted to go back to looking like the default badass assassin, they would have to introduce some magical healing effect for your clothes.

Shahkulu101
12-17-2013, 12:49 AM
This would be annoying IMO as it would mean our outfits would keep getting more and more worn out. By the end of the game we'd have gotten in so many fights we'd barely have a single thread left hanging on our torso. If you wanted to go back to looking like the default badass assassin, they would have to introduce some magical healing effect for your clothes.

Or get it repaired at the tailors - or else get this on your screen: "Warning, your clothes are all worn out. This ancestor was not charged with public indeceny - desynchronisation imminent. "

SixKeys
12-17-2013, 12:51 AM
Or get it repaired at the tailors - or else get this on your screen: "Warning, your clothes are all worn out. This ancestor was not charged with public indeceny - desynchronisation imminent. "

So we'd be forced to run back and forth to the tailor's all the time? As if going back for medicine in AC2-ACR wasn't annoying enough.

Kagurra
12-17-2013, 01:04 AM
So we'd be forced to run back and forth to the tailor's all the time? As if going back for medicine in AC2-ACR wasn't annoying enough.

Just a thought.. I'm sure there's a way to flesh it out. Lets say it could only get damaged to a certain point, and even then it looks alright once the wounds heal. Just looks tattered. It could get repaired once you went to whatever the next game's equivalent to the captain's cabin is. And then in the cheats menu there could be an option you can unlock the ability to make it so it always stays perfect, or is always tattered. Obviously this is just cosmetic and wouldn't disable saving like changing the time of day does in AC4, FOR SOME REASON. Didn't in ac3...

Wolfmeister1010
12-17-2013, 01:49 AM
Thank you all for participating in this thread. It is clear that the vast majority of the fanbase here has voiced their opinion. Now all we can do is hope that ubi follows through.

shobhit7777777
12-17-2013, 06:15 AM
Exactly, that is the questioning at hand. I do not agree with you on the point of social stealth though. I believe that even when social stealth is out of the equation, Assassin's Creed does not need crouching. [SPOILERS FOR AC4:] Think of the mission where you pursue the double of Torres in Havanna. There is literally not a single NPC on the streets. However, it was a very good and rich stealth mission: target locating, tailing, infiltration, target locating, assassination, boss fight. [END OF SPOILER] That is a great example of a mission to show that Assassin's Creed utilises its mechanics wonderfully in both social and contextual stealth.

Precisely - a fun mission in an URBAN setting. With verticality and AI suited for tight geometry. Thats why an absence of crouching did not really prove to be an issue.

Cut to the open, wooded areas, swamps, ruins etc. and crouching becomes necessary/

The majority of "stealth" in AC4 was centered around Edward pulling off a "Snake Eater" and darting from bush to bush....and while this is pulled off well....it could stand to be fleshed out more. However, I feel that the social stealth aspect of the game - showcased majorly (and poorly) in the eavesdropping sections - could be better utilized

AC4 was really well geared towards providing an equally robust and engaging social stealth experience without cutting down on accessibility.