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View Full Version : The Return of Darkness to AC



Wolfmeister1010
12-14-2013, 07:13 PM
ACB was one of my favorite ACs. There is one main reason why. It was dark. It sort of felt like AC1. It was dark in the sense that the city was dirty and gloomy, the music was woeful and ominous, the followers of Romulus were dark and scary, it jus sort of FELT dark, like AC1. Games like AC2 and AC4 were amazing, but both were pretty light hearted. Even though AC4 is the gritty true look of pirate life, it still felt pretty lighthearted for the most part. Although the story might have been gritty, the Caribbean just can not (and should not) fee dark and gritty.

Games like Dishonored and Witcher are awesome, because they EMBRACE the darkness! Not only into their storyline, but into the environment. For example, the city of Dunwall in Dishonored was dank, dirty, filled with rats. I feel that the next AC should take an effort to really make the locations darker. That is why I REALLY want the next AC to take place in Victorian London. London during that time was basically a mirror of Dunwall. (Dunwall was modeled after Victorian London) It had opulent rich areas, but the city overall was dark, gritty, and ominous, with fog rippling through the streets at night. The only cities in Ac that FELT ominous were Rome before renovation and Acre.

They really need to work on making the environment more gritty. I want to see more beggars again. Not minstrels. Not kids. Beggars. I want to see rats eating corpses, and crows picking at dead people and animals. I want the fog and mist that is possible with next gen to ALWAYS be there at night. I want the streets to actually be dark. I want to see groups of huddled people suffering from sickness. I want to see citizens getting into drunken brawls and shooting each other. I want to see a thief struggling with a woman. Even in the richer parts of the cities, there should be a gritty undertone.

This is something that places like the burnt district in NY tries to do and failed.

Just imagine walking down a dark, foggy London night, with the alley completely dark except for a streetlamp that lights a small part of the road. THIS is what the cities need to be like.

I remember playing Revelations and being annoyed that there were still beggars after I renovated all of Istanbul. But now I realize that the more sickness and beggars, the better.


Darkness and grittiness NEEDS to return to AC in the environment. The next gen will allow the dev team to make the scenes of true city life all the more realistic and dark. Ubi needs to take a lesson from Dishonored

pirate1802
12-14-2013, 07:20 PM
Depends, if it fits the story then yes, but I'm not dying for it to return. AC itself has a quite dark premise if you think about it. AC IV started off as a dandy adventure but ended up being quite unsettling. On the other hand I didn't find ACB dark or gritty.. it was just too.. cartoony to be dark and gritty? For truly dark and gritty atmosphere in an AC game, visit Acre. Nothing ever has beat that. You can smell the evil and ominousness in the air. Now THAT is dark.

What I meant was, if the setting fits the story they want to tell, then by all eans, like you said, London, chasing Jack the Ripper etc. But it should not be something the devs think about.. Right, we HAVE to do this! Because all other games are doing it!

Wolfmeister1010
12-14-2013, 07:26 PM
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/331/d/b/misty_london_by_yowsie-d3sb9cg.jpg

AssassinHMS
12-14-2013, 07:28 PM
Completely agree! Darkness is perfect for AC. Stealth could also benefit from a tense and dark environment.

Wolfmeister1010
12-14-2013, 07:29 PM
http://www.freehdwallpapers.in/download/london-in-dark-1920x1200.jpg

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120422053027/dishonoredvideogame/images/7/76/Dunwall.jpg

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121127064905/dishonoredvideogame/images/4/4d/Dunwall_Clock_Tower.png

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121008160841/dishonored/de/images/7/76/Dunwall.jpg

Kagurra
12-14-2013, 07:51 PM
I want both. At night it should be like that sometimes. But in AC games I love playing in the day time. The lighting is really good and it livens things up. In AC3 I played with the hack "daytime always on" half of the time. It makes sense anyways considering you could argue that the time is passing realistically and that's why it hasn't turned night. I was going to do this in AC4, but it turns out that using that time of day slider disables saving. Why? It didn't in AC3 and is purely aesthetic in the most possible way. Unless harder ships come out at night or some BS, I don't see a reason besides laziness this happened.

So.. A good mixture of both ideally.

lothario-da-be
12-14-2013, 08:03 PM
I actually prefer a more colorfull location like India for example, but with a darker story like ac1. Perfect combination. The contrast between the the lively location and the dark/ mature story could be realy nice imo.

Wolfmeister1010
12-14-2013, 08:10 PM
I want both. At night it should be like that sometimes. But in AC games I love playing in the day time. The lighting is really good and it livens things up. In AC3 I played with the hack "daytime always on" half of the time. It makes sense anyways considering you could argue that the time is passing realistically and that's why it hasn't turned night. I was going to do this in AC4, but it turns out that using that time of day slider disables saving. Why? It didn't in AC3 and is purely aesthetic in the most possible way. Unless harder ships come out at night or some BS, I don't see a reason besides laziness this happened.

So.. A good mixture of both ideally.
I dont think it should ALWAYS be sad and dank.the day times shouod be fun and vibrant like you said. But your point prives mine. I liked playing during the day too, because the nighttimes have always been pretty boring. Making the nights ominous and the like would really help.

ze_topazio
12-14-2013, 08:11 PM
Victorian London at night full of fog, smoke and steam with a murderer on every corner is kind of 500% cliche.

lothario-da-be
12-14-2013, 08:12 PM
I dont think it should ALWAYS be sad and dank.the day times shouod be fun and vibrant like you said. But your point prives mine. I liked playing during the day too, because the nighttimes have always been pretty boring. Making the nights ominous and the like would really help.
This, i usualy hate nights in games. I RDR i always keep saving untill its day again.

lothario-da-be
12-14-2013, 08:14 PM
Victorian London at night full of fog, smoke and steam with a murderer on every corner is kind of 500% cliche.
True, but aren't Pirates a cliche too?

Fatal-Feit
12-14-2013, 08:20 PM
ACB was the least dark and gritty of the franchise, IMO. And I don't think AC needs to embrace the darkness if the story doesn't demand it, although it would be cool. But if the next setting is set in London, why the hell not?

It would be cool if we played Jack the Ripper and played a fictional version of his story. Perhaps he's really an assassin who, in the night, hunts down Templars and steals their organs for whichever AC relatable reasons.

ze_topazio
12-14-2013, 08:21 PM
True, but aren't Pirates a cliche too?

Pirates with eye patches, peglegs and parrots on the shoulder yes.

Rugterwyper32
12-14-2013, 08:26 PM
My answer is something in between both. I'd prefer either a mix of both kinds of cities, or, based on these other posts:


I want both. At night it should be like that sometimes. But in AC games I love playing in the day time. The lighting is really good and it livens things up. In AC3 I played with the hack "daytime always on" half of the time. It makes sense anyways considering you could argue that the time is passing realistically and that's why it hasn't turned night. I was going to do this in AC4, but it turns out that using that time of day slider disables saving. Why? It didn't in AC3 and is purely aesthetic in the most possible way. Unless harder ships come out at night or some BS, I don't see a reason besides laziness this happened.

So.. A good mixture of both ideally.

Agreed with this. In a way, I feel cities at night in this series have always felt a bit too bright. I'd imagine cities at night should overall feel more ominous and dangerous.


I actually prefer a more colorfull location like India for example, but with a darker story like ac1. Perfect combination. The contrast between the the lively location and the dark/ mature story could be realy nice imo.

This is another option I really like. The contrast between a dark storyline and a bright, lively setting would be a lot of fun. Something bright and happy in the surface, but you know there's a lot more than meets the eye.

Oh, and also...


Victorian London at night full of fog, smoke and steam with a murderer on every corner is kind of 500% cliche.

Agreed. I honestly just don't want Victorian London. I gave them a free pass with pirates because the idea of an AC game dealing with pirates breaks the cliche and it's taking something you wouldn't think fits with such a game yet somehow works. But when it comes to England, I don't want anything 18th/19th century by this point. Give me Elizabethan England or during the rule of the House of Plantagenet, the creation of the Magna Carta and the First Barons' War. Now that would be fun times.

Megas_Doux
12-14-2013, 08:48 PM
ACB was the least dark and gritty of the franchise, IMO. And I don't think AC needs to embrace the darkness if the story doesn't demand it, although it would be cool. But if the next setting is set in London, why the hell not?

It would be cool if we played Jack the Ripper and played a fictional version of his story. Perhaps he's really an assassin who, in the night, hunts down Templars and steals their organs for whichever AC relatable reasons.

This!!!!

ACB is, in fact THE most cartoonish and "childish" game in the series! In terms of story AC I and AC III take that spot. However I think the "darkest" non subterranean city is , other that Acre of course, Forli. By the way, It might be just me, but I find Boston at night to be gritty as well.


PD I agree with Rugter, I would love England, but I prefer other eras the Victorian one.

Kagurra
12-14-2013, 09:06 PM
This!!!!

ACB is, in fact THE most cartoonish and "childish" game in the series! In terms of story AC I and AC III take that spot. However I think the "darkest" non subterranean city is , other that Acre of course, Forli. By the way, It might be just me, but I find Boston at night to be gritty as well.


PD I agree with Rugter, I would love England, but I prefer other eras the Victorian one.

Acre was amazing. I loved it so much. Forli... on the other hand, I didn't enjoy.

Rugterwyper32
12-14-2013, 09:13 PM
Acre was amazing. I loved it so much. Forli... on the other hand, I didn't enjoy.

Acre was my favorite city in AC1. The contrasting atmosphere compared to the other cities and the overall griminess was amazing. Dark and awesome. Plus it had the most actual historic targets of any city of the game (even though it didn't fit with the real dates or ages of some) and it had some landmarks that can't even be considered real (like that amazing cathedral).

DarktheMagister
12-14-2013, 09:17 PM
It'll really depend on the location truthfully. Some places just weren't dark and gloomy.

ACfan443
12-14-2013, 10:01 PM
I agree that a return to a grittier, darker atmosphere would make for a more immersive and enthralling world, however ACB's city isn't the best example to use in that sense, nor is its ambient music. It was darker than AC2, but not dark as a standalone game per se. Heck, 'City of Rome' was akin to Dreams of Venice and Home in Florence from AC2, which were both pretty melodic and rosy tracks. It was only during certain missions that it exhibited a more ominous and eerie ambience. What's more, its lighting and cartooney colour scheme detracted from any grittiness it attempted to achieve. It can't hold a candle to how AC1 truly captured the kind of atmosphere you're describing, roaming through Acre is enough to realise this. Acre, Masyaf, Jerusalem and Damascus embodied grittiness and visual fidelity, their ability to induce a sense of fear and thrill is unparalleled compared to the cities of AC1's successors. That being said, I still think ACB is a good game and its city is fantastic in its own right.

I'd love a game set in Victorian London, I don't particularly care if being dark makes it 'clichéd' - that's what the period was like. It wouldn't exactly be a cheery environment with people like Jack the Ripper roaming the streets. With that being said, my main concern for the setting is the time frame, I'd prefer to go further back in time than progress closer and closer to the modern era.

I-Like-Pie45
12-14-2013, 10:06 PM
Lets have a dark n gritty game where the Mongols kicked the Hashashin's butts (true story) and destroyed Baghdad - which was the Middle East's center of enlightenment prior to the Mongols destroying their great library and killing all their scholars which turned rivers black with ink and red with blood

Megas_Doux
12-14-2013, 10:15 PM
Acre was my favorite city in AC1. The contrasting atmosphere compared to the other cities and the overall griminess was amazing. Dark and awesome. Plus it had the most actual historic targets of any city of the game (even though it didn't fit with the real dates or ages of some) and it had some landmarks that can't even be considered real (like that amazing cathedral).

That´s the thing with AC I, it took enough liberties within its historical accuracy to deliver a GREAT setting! I am sure Acre did not look that grey and "European" as seen in the game, nor it had a huge gothic cathedral, but in the end, it did not matter, because the atmosphere was really good!

Which is a problem that I have with AC3, I was wandering in north Boston during a rainstorm at night, and let me tell you, it looked very nice The brick Georgian buildings, a carriage passing by, the lively port full of merchants and ships, the stone fort contrasting with the trees and fog, plus the menacing look of the hooded guy with a bow made beautifully eerie and appealing....The problems?????? Lack of background music and that the whole map is just to scarced and kinda "hard" to traverse, which is historically correct, I know.

If only Ubi had not been THAT accurate , AC3´s cities would be way more enjoyable!!!!!

Wolfmeister1010
12-14-2013, 10:16 PM
Victorian London at night full of fog, smoke and steam with a murderer on every corner is kind of 500% cliche.

No. It is history. Most of London at that time was filled with disease, poverty, theft, crime, murder, and yes, even fog.

pacmanate
12-14-2013, 11:49 PM
I would only REALLY want darkness if they implemented a system where if you were in shadow it would be harder for enemies to see you.

Wolfmeister1010
12-15-2013, 12:08 AM
I would only REALLY want darkness if they implemented a system where if you were in shadow it would be harder for enemies to see you.

I think they should implemement a sound and darkness system for stealth, like Thief.

pacmanate
12-15-2013, 12:12 AM
I think they should implemement a sound and darkness system for stealth, like Thief.

Thats the other thing, sound. I was gonna put that in the other post but I was eating pizza and forgot.

I really think for AC to move forward they need a sound and "darkness" system. Otherwise literally the only things they change each year is a few new moves and a new protag/setting.

Wolfmeister1010
12-15-2013, 12:26 AM
Thats the other thing, sound. I was gonna put that in the other post but I was eating pizza and forgot.

I really think for AC to move forward they need a sound and "darkness" system. Otherwise literally the only things they change each year is a few new moves and a new protag/setting.

agreed. Crouching would also add tons of new stealth stuff as well. Like lower cover and cover assassinations and stuff.

pacmanate
12-15-2013, 12:29 AM
agreed. Crouching would also add tons of new stealth stuff as well. Like lower cover and cover assassinations and stuff.

Crouching would but I wouldn't want AC to have a shooter based 3rd person cover system. I think having a dark setting like London and implementing a darkness system would give rise to better stealth mechanics.

The sound thing needs to be in there, its a must. I find it stupid how in AC4 you can run behind guards and they don't hear you. I know they did that to make stealth more viable, but I want it to be challenging.

Wolfmeister1010
12-15-2013, 12:55 AM
Crouching would but I wouldn't want AC to have a shooter based 3rd person cover system. I think having a dark setting like London and implementing a darkness system would give rise to better stealth mechanics.

The sound thing needs to be in there, its a must. I find it stupid how in AC4 you can run behind guards and they don't hear you. I know they did that to make stealth more viable, but I want it to be challenging.

It doesnt have to be like 3rd person shooter. It could be like Tombraider. Where if you crouch near a low wall, you automatically "take cover" agaianst it.

AssassinHMS
12-15-2013, 01:14 AM
Great ideas!! I couldn't agree more, AC would really benefit from a darkness/shadow stealth system!

I also like the sound idea. Perhaps, if the player is wearing armor while carrying many weapons, he will be heavier and will make more noise which increases the chances of being detected. On the other hand, assassins who carry less are more nimble, agile and light on their feet.






Edit: Pacmanate, Ubisoft can't make stealth more challenging without making combat more challenging as well, or else all the balance is lost. If one approach (in this case stealth) requires thought and skill while another (combat) is easy as hell, what is the point in using stealth? That's why I say combat needs to learn its place and stop doing stealth and escape's job and ruin all the tension, thrill and fear. Anyway, I agree with you, both stealth and (especially) combat need to be more challenging.

killzab
12-15-2013, 01:25 AM
Great ideas!! I couldn't agree more, AC would really benefit from a darkness/shadow stealth system!

I also like the sound idea. Perhaps, if the player is wearing armor while carrying many weapons, he will be heavier and will make more noise which increases the chances of being detected. On the other hand, assassins who carry less are more nimble, agile and light on their feet.






Edit: Pacmanate, Ubisoft can't make stealth more challenging without making combat more challenging as well, or else all the balance would be lost. If one approach (in this case stealth) requires thought and skill and another (combat) is easy as hell, then what is the point in using stealth? That's why I say combat needs to learn its place and stop doing stealth and escape's job and ruin all the tension, thrill and fear. Anyway, I agree with you, both stealth and (especially) combat need to be more challenging.

Nah, your ideas aren't casual enough, Ubi won't do it.

pacmanate
12-15-2013, 01:36 AM
Nah, your ideas aren't casual enough, Ubi won't do it.

Ha.

They really need too, otherwise it will become more CoD like. So far every year we are getting the same "new" stuff. New protag, new setting, new weapons. So does CoD.

They need to start implementing new systems instead of just tweaking the old.

AssassinHMS
12-15-2013, 01:41 AM
Nah, your ideas aren't casual enough, Ubi won't do it.

Yeah, you're right....I wouldn't mind this, if AC was like Angry Birds. Problem is, Assassin's Creed isn't meant to be a casual game. I mean, look at what casualty made to the core and to the formula. It's proof enough that AC won't succeed as just another casual game, because AC is, in its concept, hardcore. The only thing that keeps AC selling till this day is the History lore and, in terms of gameplay, the naval. But how long can they keep naval refreshing and appealing? How long can they keep selling games under AC’s name without improving the core (which inevitably makes the game more challenging)?

Sushiglutton
12-15-2013, 02:00 AM
There are soooo many games that are dark and gritty. It's understandable as it's much easier to make it look good (this is especially true if you do the post apocalyptic trick of letting the world be deserted and broken). One of Ubi's strength, since the sands of time days, is that they are great at building more vibrant and colorful worlds. I think they should keep doing this style primarily. Then obv in a yearly franchise variation is always welcome. They can (and do) also use the day/night cycle+ weather effects to create very different moods within the same city, which is the best way of all.

In AC3 they tried for a darker/browner/dirtier tone and I was no fan of that tbh. Can also have something to do with the Swedish weather in November :).

BoBwUzHeRe1138
12-15-2013, 05:48 AM
I think it should only return if it fits the time period AND location.

For instance -- it'd be cool to see two distinct cities: one where the people are relatively content, atmosphere is bright and mostly happy with things working behind the scenes that are darker (Templar business n' all that) but then have another city, same game, that's dark, gritty, with people living in squander and filth. Would make for a stark contrast which could fit into a theme depending on the story. Pretty sure you could find that in any time period more or less. I appreciate both: I really love how pretty and beautiful Venice is but I also really enjoy how dark and grimy Acre was.

pirate1802
12-15-2013, 05:53 AM
There are soooo many games that are dark and gritty. It's understandable as it's much easier to make it look good (this is especially true if you do the post apocalyptic trick of letting the world be deserted and broken). One of Ubi's strength, since the sands of time days, is that they are great at building more vibrant and colorful worlds. I think they should keep doing this style primarily. Then obv in a yearly franchise variation is always welcome. They can (and do) also use the day/night cycle+ weather effects to create very different moods within the same city, which is the best way of all.

In AC3 they tried for a darker/browner/dirtier tone and I was no fan of that tbh. Can also have something to do with the Swedish weather in November :).

Agreed. Dark and gritty is kind of becoming overused lately. So I'm not holding my breath for AC to do it too. AC's strength lies elsewhere and AC IV showed in clearly. If the story demands it, why the hell not? But I'm not going all you have to do this!!! Because its so exciting (its not) and the in thing these days!!

LoyalACFan
12-15-2013, 07:05 AM
I'm not going to vote one way or another, because I think a balance is necessary. Dark and grimy cities are awesome, but a whole game full of them would get a bit tiresome, especially for a series that isn't bound to a "dungeony" type of scenery. Would be a waste if they focused entirely on creating such an atmosphere.

Personally, I think AC1 exemplified the variety they could have regarding "bright and happy" versus "dreary and hellish." Acre was just about the filthiest and most depressing city I've explored in video games, and it was great, but when I got tired of it, I could always return to sunny Damascus.

Kagurra
12-15-2013, 07:06 AM
I'm not going to vote one way or another, because I think a balance is necessary. Dark and grimy cities are awesome, but a whole game full of them would get a bit tiresome, especially for a series that isn't bound to a "dungeony" type of scenery. Would be a waste if they focused entirely on creating such an atmosphere.

Personally, I think AC1 exemplified the variety they could have regarding "bright and happy" versus "dreary and hellish." Acre was just about the filthiest and most depressing city I've explored in video games, and it was great, but when I got tired of it, I could always return to sunny Damascus.

Thiiiiiiiiss

SixKeys
12-15-2013, 07:55 AM
I disagree that dark and gritty necessarily means better. I don't think I would have enjoyed AC4 half as much if they had diluted its colorful world and made all the characters moody and serious. AC3 was an attempt at dark and gritty, and that's where it failed IMO. I also disagree that ACB was dark and gritty in any way.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
12-15-2013, 08:52 AM
I disagree that dark and gritty necessarily means better. I don't think I would have enjoyed AC4 half as much if they had diluted its colorful world and made all the characters moody and serious. AC3 was an attempt at dark and gritty, and that's where it failed IMO. I also disagree that ACB was dark and gritty in any way.

I suppose if you compare the city itself to Venice or Florence it doesn't look as "clean" but it's not really grimy and depressing either. Part of that could also be chalked up to how AC2's graphics were really plastic-y and shiny and they got rid of that in ACB.

EchoFiveKilo
12-15-2013, 08:53 AM
I think AC3 got night time mixed with rain right to a degree. I always thought all out combat in an open street at night, with rain was always the best atmosphere to fight in. It always looked awesome when Connor would pull of double kills in the moonlight, at night in the rain!

BoBwUzHeRe1138
12-15-2013, 09:18 AM
I think AC3 got night time mixed with rain right to a degree. I always thought all out combat in an open street at night, with rain was always the best atmosphere to fight in. It always looked awesome when Connor would pull of double kills in the moonlight, at night in the rain!

Yeah that was one improvement AC3 brought. AC3 actually brought a bunch of refinements and improvements such as updating the parkour animations, making the fighting slightly more complicated than it was in ACB/ACR, adding in more atmospheric elements like rain and snow, the fluid low profile assassinations where you keep walking after stabbing, more dynamic blending, etc. but unfortunately these advancements were in a game where the cities didn't make the most of the updated parkour (Boston and NY were pretty boring cities) and also had a lot of strange changes as well. For instance, AC3 also has one of the worst "hive mind" guards in the series. They always know where I'm at and if I hop out of a hay stack, they'll come running back to me. I know this happens somewhat in AC2/ACB/ACR but not to the same extent. Add in that there are WAY more guards on rooftops (instead of one patrolling, we have like 3 and if you kill one, the others will turn around and be alerted), more guards in the streets (enough that when trying to escape, every corner you round will inevitably lead to a line of soldiers attempting to gun you down and some of the central aspects and defining elements of AC were let down: parkour and exploration because of the boring city design and all the guards on roofs, fleeing and blending in due to the hive mind guards and the sheer number of guards in the cities, etc.

I hope AC4 improved upon that. I know the dynamic blending has more or less been scrapped: BOOOO. But I know they kept the weather and stuff, parkour will obviously be the same, combat will probably be relatively similar to 3, etc. I just hope they got rid of hive mind guards entirely and some of the silly things.

Sigv4rd
12-15-2013, 09:43 AM
Boston on a snowy night was magnificent!

pacmanate
12-15-2013, 09:45 AM
I miss snow :(

pirate1802
12-15-2013, 09:52 AM
Boston on a snowy night was magnificent!

About the only thing I liked in AC3's cities over other games..

Also liked that snow indicated a passage of time. Other ACs, the cities at start are pretty much the same as at the end. You can't know that 10 years or so have passed since the beginning of the game. The snow indicated that yeah.. its been a few years since I started the game.

EchoFiveKilo
12-15-2013, 11:15 AM
Yeah that was one improvement AC3 brought. AC3 actually brought a bunch of refinements and improvements such as updating the parkour animations, making the fighting slightly more complicated than it was in ACB/ACR, adding in more atmospheric elements like rain and snow, the fluid low profile assassinations where you keep walking after stabbing, more dynamic blending, etc. but unfortunately these advancements were in a game where the cities didn't make the most of the updated parkour (Boston and NY were pretty boring cities) and also had a lot of strange changes as well. For instance, AC3 also has one of the worst "hive mind" guards in the series. They always know where I'm at and if I hop out of a hay stack, they'll come running back to me. I know this happens somewhat in AC2/ACB/ACR but not to the same extent. Add in that there are WAY more guards on rooftops (instead of one patrolling, we have like 3 and if you kill one, the others will turn around and be alerted), more guards in the streets (enough that when trying to escape, every corner you round will inevitably lead to a line of soldiers attempting to gun you down and some of the central aspects and defining elements of AC were let down: parkour and exploration because of the boring city design and all the guards on roofs, fleeing and blending in due to the hive mind guards and the sheer number of guards in the cities, etc.

I hope AC4 improved upon that. I know the dynamic blending has more or less been scrapped: BOOOO. But I know they kept the weather and stuff, parkour will obviously be the same, combat will probably be relatively similar to 3, etc. I just hope they got rid of hive mind guards entirely and some of the silly things.

Agreed! I sometimes just run through the market place where there are lots of tables, and places where there are lots of fences (like where they keep the pigs and horses) holding A so that I can see the awesome vaulting animations, or running through the 'passthroughs' where Connor vaults or dives over a table. The combat was absolutely awesome and the animations and choreography were perfect, I've never seen better combat animations in a game (other than Ghost Recon Future Soldier, which is also a ubi game). As much as I admire the detail in Boston and NY they did feel kind of bland I have to admit. Also the perfect hidden blade stab while maintaining walking was also superb, the dynamic blending was nice too.

But yes I did hate the hive mind AI and how the guards always seem to knew where you are. I also hated the semi automatic muskets when they fire at you when youre on a rooftop or the ridiculously fast reload times they had in some situations.

Charles_Phipps
12-15-2013, 02:53 PM
I think darker and grittier is rather a double edged sword.

Dishonored is wonderful because it's dark.
So is the Witcher.

People HATED the relative downbeat nature of AC3. They, instead, loved Ezio as the dashing romantic hero versus the purely evil Templars.

AssassinHMS
12-15-2013, 04:08 PM
I agree that a balance is good but, for the next AC game I would like something darker, not consistently dark, but mostly dark with a few breaks just to breathe a little and enjoy the brief colorful environment.

However, I think a colorful and happy environment doesn’t completely suit AC. It’s nice when the assassin is passing for a nobleman in an extravagant party but even there, there needs to be some darkness, some mystery, sadness and corruption behind the smiles of the guests. A good AC game isn’t a dark one, it is one that makes sure darkness is everywhere, whether right in front of you (like in Acre or Forli) or behind a vibrant and apparently colorful city.
For example, Brotherhood was somewhat dark. Not the city itself (although, in a way, it kind of was) but the not so apparent city, the city under the city, the Romulus lairs, the greed and corruption stained in blood, some of the Leonardo’s war machines missions, etc.
Also, AC needs darkness. For example there is no tension or fear while assassinating someone in a sunny beach filled with palm trees and golden sand. Darkness and fear is what motivates the player to think, to be careful, to use stealth and escape along with a challenging combat system.
Regardless, AC needs to feel dark. Venice for example, while bright and vibrant, felt dark due to the music, to the mysteries, the conspiracies, etc.
So I agree that a mix of colorful and dark cities is the best, but all of them should be dark on their core nevertheless.

monteiro416
12-15-2013, 10:03 PM
I feel like most games (unless you're playing Mario or something) tend to be rather on the dark side so AC2 and BF were a nice break from that. I would prefer it to be mostly bright with some darkness only to parallel when the plot gets darker.

Charles_Phipps
12-15-2013, 11:39 PM
Darkness is also relative.

AC3 is the darkest game by far in terms of content and storytelling. Connor's life SUCkS and doesn't get any better.

Ezio, by contrast, lives an AWESOME life and barring family tragedy--continues to do so.

Edward lives an AWESOME life and has a tragic end.

Landruner
12-16-2013, 03:12 AM
ACB is my Assassin's Creed favorite of the all series (That is just my opinion) and the reason why is that it was for me, the only one that could manage with brio darkness and vibrant ambiance at the same time.

It is one of the more adult too:
The scene of the Christ crucifixion is an example and it was regarded by critics as a nice daring attempt from Ubisoft as well as the bordello hold by Ezio's own sister Claudia (I mean how many video games in history came to push those borders of the controversies like Brotherhood did?) ,

Even for the people that paid attention, you have little details such as on the west side of Rome you can hear a couple copulating in one of the house.

(Who could have done that before and get away with such panache as Ubisoft did with that game? It was the time where this series was at its pinnacle, and nothing seemed to stop Ubisoft from going to the deepest points where some rare game went before)

and of course all those darker factors point such as the Darkness of the Romulus Clan, the strange assassination such as the (Templar agent assassinations), the lairs and the tombs...I mean it was a nice festival of mysterious location and situations.

- On the other end, ACB goes far in the derision as well, the parachute, the crossbow, the brotherhood instant kill and the Leonardo's war's machine. Sure ACB is a paradox for some, and some will say it was certainly not their favorite, and I really liked AC2 and I consider it as one of the best too, but this is what I like the most in any video that is this little "I don't know what" that the others do not have and made it so unique to my regard.

Charles_Phipps
12-16-2013, 06:14 AM
ACB is my Assassin's Creed favorite of the all series (That is just my opinion) and the reason why is that it was for me, the only one that could manage with brio darkness and vibrant ambiance at the same time.

It is one of the more adult too:
The scene of the Christ crucifixion is an example and it was regarded by critics as a nice daring attempt from Ubisoft as well as the bordello hold by Ezio's own sister Claudia (I mean how many video games in history came to push those borders of the controversies like Brotherhood did?) ,

Even for the people that paid attention, you have little details such as on the west side of Rome you can hear a couple copulating in one of the house.

(Who could have done that before and get away with such panache as Ubisoft did with that game? It was the time where this series was at its pinnacle, and nothing seemed to stop Ubisoft from going to the deepest points where some rare game went before)

and of course all those darker factors point such as the Darkness of the Romulus Clan, the strange assassination such as the (Templar agent assassinations), the lairs and the tombs...I mean it was a nice festival of mysterious location and situations.

- On the other end, ACB goes far in the derision as well, the parachute, the crossbow, the brotherhood instant kill and the Leonardo's war's machine. Sure ACB is a paradox for some, and some will say it was certainly not their favorite, and I really liked AC2 and I consider it as one of the best too, but this is what I like the most in any video that is this little "I don't know what" that the others do not have and made it so unique to my regard.

...

Brotherhood is like one of the least dark games I've ever played.

It's one step below Mario.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:08 AM
If there is an AC game that is truly dark, gritty and daring, its AC1. If the crucifixion of Christ was daring then how daring was it to suggest that he was merely a trickster? Not only Christ but a whole lot of others? AC1 is the game that is the most daring by suggesting all the established religions are mere elaborate hoaxes. ACB's depiction of debauchery and incest was merely showing things as they were, in real life.

Charles_Phipps
12-16-2013, 07:20 AM
Altair's professed atheism was a pretty big step for controversial gaming choices.

But I wouldn't call it DARK.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:21 AM
The whole game wasn't but Acre was, to me the darkest AC city. Just the feel of death and disease in the air..

pacmanate
12-16-2013, 07:33 AM
The whole game wasn't but Acre was, to me the darkest AC city. Just the feel of death and disease in the air..

Reminds me of Coventry

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:35 AM
Reminds me of Dunwall actually, quite strongly.

roostersrule2
12-16-2013, 09:56 AM
I don't think any game has been dark, AC1 and AC3 are most definitely the darkest but are nothing compared to something like The Witcher.

Sigv4rd
12-16-2013, 10:05 AM
Reminds me of Dunwall actually, quite strongly.

Is it wrong that I kinda want Arcane studios to make an AC game?

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 10:24 AM
Is it wrong that I kinda want Arcane studios to make an AC game?

Their gameplay leaves AC far behind but Dishonored's story made Brotherhood look like a literary masterpiece.

Farlander1991
12-16-2013, 10:50 AM
Acre was my favorite city in AC1. The contrasting atmosphere compared to the other cities and the overall griminess was amazing. Dark and awesome. Plus it had the most actual historic targets of any city of the game (even though it didn't fit with the real dates or ages of some) and it had some landmarks that can't even be considered real (like that amazing cathedral).

The Cathedral was real, there was one built by the Crusaders there, it just most likely would've have had a different architecture style (though, truth be told, it was built in the 12th century which is when the Gothic movement began, and since tons of Crusaders were French or from France - it might've somehow affected the building, but still Romanesque is a more likely style - since Gothic wasn't that established until 13th century).


The Crusader period began for Acre in 1104, some five years after the fall of Jerusalem. Baldwin I, King of Jerusalem, and the Genoese commercial fleet cooperated in laying siege to Acre from land and sea until the city fell to the Crusaders. A new and special model of settlement evolved, characterized by defined and autonomous quarters. The king settled in the northern part of the city, where he built a fortified palace. Genoese, Venetian, and Pisan merchants built autonomous quarters nearby the port. The military orders installed themselves nearby - the Hospitallers in the north of the city to the west of the palace, the Templars in the south-west of the city, and the German Knights close to the eastern wall of the wall. Other important quarters included those of the Patriarch (in which the Church of the Holy Cross, Acre's main cathedral, was built), the French merchants (the Provençal quarter), and the English merchants. Moslem and Jewish merchants also settled in the city.

Many public buildings were erected - fortified buildings, churches, bathhouses, bakeries, courts and hostels for pilgrims and merchants, covered markets - and also private dwellings. During the two centuries of Crusader rule Acre developed into a wealthy and thriving trading city. It symbolized the interchange between the eastern and western cultures better than any other city.

Source. (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1042)

Dev_Anj
12-16-2013, 12:38 PM
The Cathedral was real, there was one built by the Crusaders there, it just most likely would've have had a different architecture style (though, truth be told, it was built in the 12th century which is when the Gothic movement began, and since tons of Crusaders were French or from France - it might've somehow affected the building, but still Romanesque is a more likely style - since Gothic wasn't that established until 13th century).



The main problem with building a Gothic cathedral in Acre would be that Acre was a war torn area at the time which was just getting stabilized, and it would be highly susceptible to damage from siege engines, what with its huge glass stained windows, its tall arches, and such.

The Crusaders did build a lot of structures in Acre after capturing it, that's true.

Farlander1991
12-16-2013, 12:45 PM
The main problem with building a Gothic cathedral in Acre would be that Acre was a war torn area at the time which was just getting stabilized, and it would be highly susceptible to damage from siege engines, what with its huge glass stained windows, its tall arches, and such.

Well, the Cathedral in AC1 does have one tower destroyed totally and if I remember correctly it's not in a very good shape at all (which is why it was tricky to climb it, I remember that you couldn't really have a straight climb, you had to navigate around the walls of the building).

StilleNachT
12-16-2013, 06:26 PM
I think considering the very title of this franchise "Assassins Creed" every install ment should be dark. It should have been akin to something like the league of shadows from Batman, or perhaps with more of the outlook from Theif.

The questionable use the red and white get up (iconic I grant you) after the relevance of the knights templar in AC1 was also a little odd with Ac2 and ACB It was nice that in ACR that was some change to that. I realise those colours were symbolic, but an assassin who supposedly blends into the crowd and vanishes, or salks roof tops, occasionally at night, wouldn't drape himself in bright white. I know in game you can dye your clothes but it always strikes me as funny the bright white is everywhere on advertising.

don't get me wrong, I love the design of the Assassin gear, it's the colour scheme that needed work after AC1.

Most of these games should have used night for most operations, with darkness, grimness and tension being it's bread and butter. I think the motivation for high sales has had it's impact on the story with the sandbox world with thousands of things to do, which in turn has eaten away at what assassins creed was about in the first place.

In AC 2 however Ezio watched his whole family get hanged remember!? A misson has you dispose of the bodies. You don't get darker than that!

I think the darkness was lost in Ac3 somewhat and Ac4 could have had a proper grimness to it. I know the game has a mature label on it but this type of game I think is an R not an M in america and an 18 over here. The typ of story we are dealing with here has no buisness being anything lower. This is garnishing more sales again and this is where the creative medium suffers doe to being a major product and now brand.

All of that aside, Ac4 though, if you look closely, has it's dark side.

What I'm getting bored of most of al though, is the terrible AI guards etc wandering around like mindless drones. Stalking the and taking them down is for the most part, is pathetic.

Espcially when you come to the point where you are knocking out other assassins who wouldn't notice an army landing onshore behind them. Other games, who similar dynamics, have progressed far further than this poor scripting. Take GTA V for example.

The tension and grimness of the game ebb away from the games overal feel and you play, desipite the narrative, when you don't have much to fear from the oposition.

AC franchise now seems sadly to be ultimately floating around gimmicks, like the naval warafre, with story and everything else becoming back ground editions.

It's a shame. Assassins Creed saved UBI soft from being eaten up by EA, as it's sales prevented UBI soft giving in to EA's bidding to own them. A lot of you young uns may not realise this, but it's true. UBI's savour deserves more than this.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 06:35 PM
Depends on the execution, executed right, even talking to someone can feel dark as hell, o executed wrong even a massacre can feel like a walk in the park. AC2, despite having a sad outcome for Ezio, was a very lighthearted adventure. Kinda like AC4. I didnt feel a tinge of darkness moving their bodies. Btw wasnt moving their bodies in ACB?

StilleNachT
12-16-2013, 06:48 PM
No. In brother hood he was middle aged. He lost his family in his early 20's. I can't say I find most of Ezio's storyline light hearted either. At any point!

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 06:52 PM
No you said him moving his family member's bodies. Sure they died in AC2, but he was shown moving them only in ACB's repressed memories right?

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 06:57 PM
No. In brother hood he was middle aged. He lost his family in his early 20's. I can't say I find most of Ezio's storyline light hearted either. At any point!In Brotherhood, Ezio was around his mid-40s that's not middle aged.

In Revelations he was a 50 something now that is a middle aged man. You seem quite young maybe you'll understand when you're older. ;) lol

StilleNachT
12-16-2013, 07:00 PM
Im 35 next year. I've read all the Assassins Novels as well as played the game. 30 - 40 is middle aged now. Is there anything further I can enlighten you on friend?

adventurewomen
12-16-2013, 07:01 PM
Im 35 next year. I've read all the Assassins Novels as well as played the game. 30 - 40 is middle aged now. Is there anything further I can enlighten you on friend?
Haha I was joking. lol! :)

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:01 PM
40ish is middle-aged I'd say.

Shahkulu101
12-16-2013, 07:03 PM
40ish is middle-aged I'd say.

There is no middle age, only birth and death.

pirate1802
12-16-2013, 07:07 PM
There is no middle age, only birth and death.

Thats enough philosophy for me for one day.

pacmanate
12-16-2013, 07:16 PM
Thats enough philosophy for me for one day.

Agreed, that was way too deep.

GreySkellig
12-16-2013, 07:40 PM
Back to the original topic...I'm in favor not of a "gritty repaint" but of a greater degree of contrast and liveliness. Next-gen tech will allow for much more detailed environments and more lively NPC crowds...one way I'd like to see this used is to make the cities more alive and reactive, particularly in terms of rich/poor contrast. I don't want the game to tell me "this is the wealthy district, this is the poor one." I want to see from the environment that there's rats, trash in the street, poorly clothed citizens, beggars on stoops, children running everywhere, back-alley traders--must be a slum. Or there's a big market, a church/temple, priests, merchants, well-dressed families, more sedate crowds, clean streets--ah, the upscale part of town. Right now most AC cities, with the exception of architecture and language, seem like the same labyrinth of rooftops and streets to me.

(What would be really cool is if this cheery/gritty contrast came out in gameplay: nobody gives a hoot if you're climbing rooftops and jumping around in the slums, but citizens are more easily aggravated by being shoved, whereas the rich folks gasp and back away if you get aggressive, but they're quicker to call the guards if you're making a scene scrambling around or pickpocketing. Just a notion.)

Main point, why can't we have both?

Shahkulu101
12-16-2013, 07:53 PM
Agreed, that was way too deep.

I was actually satirizing the pretentiousness of said philosophy.

Hans684
12-16-2013, 10:20 PM
I don't want "darknes" unless there was darknes in the setting and time historicly.

Fatal-Feit
12-16-2013, 10:23 PM
(What would be really cool is if this cheery/gritty contrast came out in gameplay: nobody gives a hoot if you're climbing rooftops and jumping around in the slums, but citizens are more easily aggravated by being shoved, whereas the rich folks gasp and back away if you get aggressive, but they're quicker to call the guards if you're making a scene scrambling around or pickpocketing. Just a notion.)

Main point, why can't we have both?

Interesting. It could add a lot to social stealth. Like, in the day time, citizens can call guards and you'll be easily detected if you're climbing up a tall building or something.

itsamea-mario
12-16-2013, 10:29 PM
I want dark, like real dark, like the lights aren't just off they've been ripped out of the walls and then the windows have been bricked up dark, like super advanced light absorbing black paint all over the walls dark, like neutrino detection chamber dark, like the center of a black hole dark, like the soul of a wall street banker dark.

Killing some templar dude at a charity event, murdering kids in their beds, brutally bludgeoning a man to death, that kind of dark, resorting to torture to get information that could save lives dark, killing a good man, to save more, dark.

AssassinHMS
12-16-2013, 10:49 PM
I want dark, like real dark, like the lights aren't just off they've been ripped out of the walls and then the windows have been bricked up dark, like super advanced light absorbing black paint all over the walls dark, like neutrino detection chamber dark, like the center of a black hole dark, like the soul of a wall street banker dark.

Killing some templar dude at a charity event, murdering kids in their beds, brutally bludgeoning a man to death, that kind of dark, resorting to torture to get information that could save lives dark, killing a good man, to save more, dark.

If handled properly that could be awesome. But that would require a drastic change of mind from Ubisoft:
- If the assassin is overpowered, killing a children, a “good man” or any other dark deed to achieve the greater good, will seem unnecessary and futile. The only way for that to be reasonable is if both the story and the gameplay are handled in a mature and realistic way. If the assassin is just another overpowered idealist that is closer to God than to a human, then such difficult and controversial choices won’t make sense. If the gameplay doesn’t treat you like an assassin and, instead treats you like a child who wants to play as Hulk, then the darkness of the story becomes a nonsense. The only way to pull that off, is if they make an assassin who is a human being (rational, selfish, that isn’t a one-man-army and who isn’t just another simple-minded, self-nominated hero that fights for some pretty cause).
- This also means that the assassin would actually behave like an assassin. Tough choices like the ones you presented are only justified if the situation is tougher. Fear, doubt and weakness must be part of the atmosphere to make the situation feel difficult and make the player understand the protagonist by being placed in his shoes. This will create tense and highly volatile situations that will require from the player though, focus and cold blood. This tense and dark environment will complement the story and emphasize the importance of stealth and navigation.

It wouldn’t be easy to pull that off but I would really like what you suggested.

Landruner
12-16-2013, 11:03 PM
...

Brotherhood is like one of the least dark games I've ever played.

It's one step below Mario.

Missing trolling on Youtube for posting irrelevant pieces of comparison(s) like that? LOL! I did not say it was the darkest, You have no darkness in any AC not like some game such as (Thief or dishonored caliber) - I mentioned that some content were the most adult than the rest of the series, and to me the balance between the darkness and the burlesque was interesting - I tried to explain it the best I could in my previous post obviously, you did not read it.

SixKeys
12-16-2013, 11:09 PM
Back to the original topic...I'm in favor not of a "gritty repaint" but of a greater degree of contrast and liveliness. Next-gen tech will allow for much more detailed environments and more lively NPC crowds...one way I'd like to see this used is to make the cities more alive and reactive, particularly in terms of rich/poor contrast. I don't want the game to tell me "this is the wealthy district, this is the poor one." I want to see from the environment that there's rats, trash in the street, poorly clothed citizens, beggars on stoops, children running everywhere, back-alley traders--must be a slum. Or there's a big market, a church/temple, priests, merchants, well-dressed families, more sedate crowds, clean streets--ah, the upscale part of town. Right now most AC cities, with the exception of architecture and language, seem like the same labyrinth of rooftops and streets to me.

AC1 was good about showing the distinction between the rich and poor districts. Sure, they were labeled as such on the map, but if you played without the HUD, you could still easily recognize the transition from a poor area to a rich one and vice versa. With current technology they could just add in some more details of the kind you mentioned.



(What would be really cool is if this cheery/gritty contrast came out in gameplay: nobody gives a hoot if you're climbing rooftops and jumping around in the slums, but citizens are more easily aggravated by being shoved, whereas the rich folks gasp and back away if you get aggressive, but they're quicker to call the guards if you're making a scene scrambling around or pickpocketing. Just a notion.)

Main point, why can't we have both?

This sounds like an awesome idea. Too bad it would probably be very difficult to implement in practice.

StilleNachT
12-17-2013, 12:50 PM
40 years young! Hey I have to say that it's only 6 years away for me *gulp*. BTW I think your right about brotherhood showing the repressed memory of Ezio handling his families bodies. I think in the novel of AC2 it tells that part of the story as it happens, and perhaps that's what has confused me. Unless I'm wrong again.

Fine details aside, I still think Ezio's entire story line had suitable grim in full attendence. The Brogias for exmaple weren't exactly Disney. What about when he watches his uncle mario for exmaple get shot. Not many happy points for dear old Ezio.


Connor loses his mum to be fair, but that still seems more Disney tragic storyline fodder (like the beginning of Finding Nemo for exmaple) than harsh edgy story telling.

Charles_Phipps
12-17-2013, 05:22 PM
Missing trolling on Youtube for posting irrelevant pieces of comparison(s) like that? LOL! I did not say it was the darkest, You have no darkness in any AC not like some game such as (Thief or dishonored caliber) - I mentioned that some content were the most adult than the rest of the series, and to me the balance between the darkness and the burlesque was interesting - I tried to explain it the best I could in my previous post obviously, you did not read it.

Allow me to rephrase.

I'd like my Assassin's Creed games to be lacking in darkness in terms of violence and grittiness while having plenty of psychological darkness. I don't want to play through rape, torture, and people starving in the streets but I do want to deal with people suffering through oppression as well as dealing with personal loss. I think Assassin's Creed 3 and 4 is about my preferred level of darkness with both having a lot of personal gut punches but shying over the most visceral elements. I really didn't like the Subject Zero audio diaries, though, because of the inclusion of nazism as well as torture.

They just made me uncomfortable and I skipped them.

Bastiaen
12-17-2013, 05:38 PM
The games have alternated in the series between dark and light. It's dark's turn (I'm happy about that). Hoping for London. Didn't care about London until I went there this summer. Now I understand.
AC1: Dark, gloomy, atmospheric
AC2: Colorful, beautiful, atmospheric
ACB: Dark, gloomy, atmostpheric
ACR: Bright, colorful, atmospheric
AC3: Dark (most of the time) gloomy, atmospheric (Frontier can be bright, colorful and beautiful).
AC4: Bright, colorful (most of the time. Jungles are dark and atmospheric). Atmospheric.
AC5?

StilleNachT
12-17-2013, 06:31 PM
Im not sure that sequence you have put together was a genuine rythm by the makers of AC Bastiaen, but saying that I hope I'm wrong and your right. If you are the next installment will be right up my street!(so to speak);)