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Mcfly616
12-06-2013, 09:50 PM
I just heard that Ubisoft has sent out surveys to fans, asking if they would like a Pirates game without the AC bits. Being a loyal Ubisoft customer for over a decade, I was surprised not to find one in my email. So this is just me letting my voice be heard.

First off, I have to admit that while I've owned countless games from Ubisoft (Tom Clancy games, Far Cry etc etc) I never got into Assassin's Creed. For years a Pirate videogame has been on my wishlist. When I first saw the Next Gen gameplay for Black Flag, my hopes sky-rocketed. Then I heard that the core conflict between the Assassins and Templars took sort of a backseat to the world of Pirating. I was sold.

It's a fantastic and beautiful game that fulfilled mostly everything I could've wanted from a game set in the golden age of piracy. However, the present day "Abstergo" bits are utterly jarring. I made a point to my good friend (a die-hard AC fan since the very first game), that the game would be so much better without any of the "sci fi" bits where we are actually playing the game through the memories of a dead ancestor. I said, this game could've been twice as good had it simply been called "Black Flag" and just let us live and play as pirates without pulling us out of the immersive world in order to throw us into boring corporate offices. It should've just been a "period piece" I had said to my friend. And then my friend responded: "I feel that way about every single Assassin's Creed game."


So, Ubisoft.....I'm throwing my hat in favor of a Pirate game series that is completely unrelated to AC (and all it's sci fi features). And if you actually do it, I'll be throwing my money at you as well.


P.s. wouldn't mind having a customizable protagonist as well. Maybe explore some Pirate mythology/legends (I.e. Krakens, ghost ships, curses) and incorporate that into the game. Ofcourse it should still be presented realistically and not in a Hollywoodized swashbuckling manner. I do love how you incorporated actual historical events and characters into Black Flag. I'd be in favor of either approach.....just make a pure Pirate game.

FrankieSatt
12-06-2013, 10:14 PM
I didn't get any survey asking about that.

I will say though that I would support this 100%. A historical game focused solely on pirates and the pirate theme, no Assassin's Creed, no Animus, no Present Day.... just PIRATES and 100% focus on that.

This should have been done and separated with Black Flag but after that disaster it really needs to be done now.

Shahkulu101
12-06-2013, 10:20 PM
I didn't get any survey asking about that.

I will say though that I would support this 100%. A historical game focused solely on pirates and the pirate theme, no Assassin's Creed, no Animus, no Present Day.... just PIRATES and 100% focus on that.

This should have been done and separated with Black Flag but after that disaster it really needs to be done now.

It wasn't a disaster, it was a critical success and a hit with fans.

Mcfly616
12-06-2013, 10:46 PM
Black Flag is my dark horse for GotY, right now. But, the game would've been my favorite for GOTY (by far) if there were no Animus, present day, digitized cutscenes, and just the overall "sci-fi-ness" of it all. Those are some of the reasons I never got into the AC series, and after experiencing them first-hand I have to say that I feel vindicated in doing so. Ubisoft does open world games within historical eras so damn well....they don't need to make the narrative so convoluted with the sci fi memories back and forth from present day. I definitely would've got into the series 7 years ago had they just went down the ancestral family tree of assassins that lived in one historical era after the other. I read hard sci fi literature. I don't need the little present day bits to spoon feed the narrative.


I understand AC is a beloved series. I just think if Black Flag was simply called as such (and didn't have AC IV attached to it, as well as some of the features that come with that series) it would be getting much more critical acclaim. Let's be honest, hating on established series is the cool thing to do around the internet nowadays (CoD haters, Halo haters, Mass Effect haters....haters everywhere)....and critics tend to lean towards original titles (see: The Last of Us). It's not fair, but it's true.

Kagurra
12-06-2013, 10:54 PM
Look, I loved Black Flag. One of my favorite AC games. But the thing is, I feel like they just hit something successful that people liked, and now they're all full of themselves and immediately want to run out and start another franchise on it. That's not a good thing. Everybody will know it was just the spawn of a successful AC game, and nothing more.

Mcfly616
12-06-2013, 11:17 PM
Yeah.....but the reason it may become a separate series is because some people feel Black Flag was actually held back by the Assassin's Creed Title. Hell, it didn't feel like Assassin's Creed to me. Part of the reason I bought it.


Here's where I learned about the email (for those of you that didn't get it either). http://kotaku.com/ubisoft-survey-ponders-an-assassins-creed-free-pirate-1478035897

Sushiglutton
12-06-2013, 11:21 PM
First off I think that only a tiny, tiny fraction of the ten million+ fanbase got to do the survey, so you shouldn't be sad about that :) (I've never done one either). Secondly I would also like another pirate game. There's a lot of potential still like multiplayer, seamless diving, more varied ship archetypes (looking at you legendary ships), better combat system. And like you I think it would be nice to not have to deal with the sci-fi fluff for once.

LoyalACFan
12-06-2013, 11:21 PM
Let's be honest, hating on established series is the cool thing to do around the internet nowadays (CoD haters, Halo haters, Mass Effect haters....haters everywhere)....and critics tend to lean towards original titles (see: The Last of Us). It's not fair, but it's true.

People don't automatically hate on franchises if they come out every year, they hate on them if they do the SAME THING every year. Example, COD has by far the most online haters, but it's legitimately been pretty much the same game since COD4. While there were some murmurings of AC becoming like COD after AC4 was announced right after the disappointment of AC3, that has largely gone away after Black Flag was such a success. There's very little inherent critical bias against games simply because they're part of an ongoing series (see: GTA5, Uncharted 3, MGS4). The Last of Us raked in so much praise because it was phenomenal, not because it was a new IP.

Mcfly616
12-06-2013, 11:25 PM
AC isn't exactly about Captaining a ship. They can't have that in every AC game. But it's also far more than a feature that was simply tacked on. It's one of the best parts of the game. In fact, it's probably the best naval warfare gameplay ever. Ubisoft can't exactly abandon it.

Mcfly616
12-06-2013, 11:37 PM
Everybody has their perspectives, likes and dislikes. I personally thought The Last of Us was a linear trudge. I also noticed it being praised far and wide for things that have already been done before (especially the ending.....nothing unique, special or original about it).


However, to say people on the internet don't hate on a game series for the sole reason that they're annually released.....well, thats completely false. I would like to live in a world where you're right. But its not this one. The web is filled with trolls that say "Halo shouldve died with Bungie", even though Halo 4 is arguably the best installment since Combat Evolved. Let Mass Effect die after ME3. There's people that refer to AC as the CoD of open world games. This isn't to say some people don't have valid points....but there's plenty of people out there that merely complain for the sake of complaining.


I'm not arguing over CoD. Every complaint about that series is warranted.

Kagurra
12-06-2013, 11:44 PM
Ubisoft can't exactly abandon it.

Yes they can.

Landruner
12-07-2013, 12:31 AM
Question to the moderators? Why Ubisoft is saying via the press that they made surveys and why most users from this forum did not get e-mail about it or even knowledge of those survey?

For the OP and the Thread I am not surprised that they will do that, I wrote about it countless times over the past week (mostly positively sure of my speculation) and I am not surprised because of the extreme success and almost critical acclaim and praise AC4 black Flag ( Success caused mostly because of tis Pirate Gameplay, and I insist on it just because of the pirate gameplay and not for the Assassin theme and gameplay, and too bad for the ones that want to argue about it)


Now, I may wonder if they expand a Black Flag franchise will they keep some of the AC franchise such as the free running/parkourt type or not?

Megas_Doux
12-07-2013, 01:52 AM
I didn't get any survey asking about that.

I will say though that I would support this 100%. A historical game focused solely on pirates and the pirate theme, no Assassin's Creed, no Animus, no Present Day.... just PIRATES and 100% focus on that.

This should have been done and separated with Black Flag but after that disaster it really needs to be done now.

Disaster?????

AC IV, although not a breaking point in terms of innovation, has the best mission design and stealth in the series since AC I, and I dare to say that, so far, it even beats it in that aspect.

Gameplay wise, I have seen many ones that heavily disliked AC3, praising this game.

FrankieSatt
12-07-2013, 01:58 AM
Disaster?????

AC IV, although not a breaking point in terms of innovation, has the best mission design and stealth in the series since AC I, and I dare to say that, so far, it even beats it in that aspect.

For me, Black Flag was a disaster as far as an Assassin's Creed game. It was nothing more than a Pirate game with very small aspects of anything Assassin's Creed shoved in just so they could use the name to sell the game.

That is my opinion of the game, and will continue to be.

MnemonicSyntax
12-07-2013, 02:04 AM
For me, Black Flag was a disaster as far as an Assassin's Creed game. It was nothing more than a Pirate game with very small aspects of anything Assassin's Creed shoved in just so they could use the name to sell the game.

That is my opinion of the game, and will continue to be.

It's funny though, because they used the naval and being a pirate to sell the game. New players to Creed didn't buy it for Creed. They bought it for pirates.

Landruner
12-07-2013, 03:00 AM
For me, Black Flag was a disaster as far as an Assassin's Creed game. It was nothing more than a Pirate game with very small aspects of anything Assassin's Creed shoved in just so they could use the name to sell the game.

That is my opinion of the game, and will continue to be.

AC4 was not a disaster, but the assassin's parts were, I agree and I understand what you are thinking.

Kagurra
12-07-2013, 03:31 AM
AC4 was not a disaster, but the assassin's parts were, I agree and I understand what you are thinking.

I thought it was alright... Didn't like Kidd's character in either form though.

FrankieSatt
12-07-2013, 04:01 AM
AC4 was not a disaster, but the assassin's parts were, I agree and I understand what you are thinking.

I agree that the Pirate part of the game was good, that was the only thing worth playing in the game.

However, this game does have the name Assassin's Creed on the box and that means something. As an Assassin's Creed game, it's a disaster. As a Pirate Game, it's a decent game. It could have been so much better had they removed the Assassin's Creed and just created a Pirate Game.

xMorgothx2012
12-07-2013, 09:32 AM
I agree that the Pirate part of the game was good, that was the only thing worth playing in the game.

However, this game does have the name Assassin's Creed on the box and that means something. As an Assassin's Creed game, it's a disaster. As a Pirate Game, it's a decent game. It could have been so much better had they removed the Assassin's Creed and just created a Pirate Game.

Exactly how I feel about this. They should have had the courage to make Black Flag its own thing. They obviously had something good on their hands.

pirate1802
12-07-2013, 10:53 AM
This should have been done and separated with Black Flag but after that disaster it really needs to be done now.

Lol.

I had my reservations before that the game will be a pirate game but after playing it I simply can't take people claiming that seriously. Disaster? Most of the missions take place on land, stealth and freedom is hugely emphasized. Mission design is a joy the assassinations for most part were as sandboxey as it can get. Just because the protag isn't an Assassin till the last few sequences and you use the ship to travel to different parts and have a bunch of optional naval stuff it becomes a pirate game? Riiiight. :rolleyes: I know different opinions and all, but I think I'm allowed to give my opinions on opinions lol. The naval stuff is what gives AC4 a different flavour. Take that away and watch people complain how every AC game is the same now. Which they were talking about anyway. I hope they included something different like this in every game now.

Anyway, yes they should totally make a pirate franchise out of it. I hope they don't use naval in the next game because then it'd lose its novelty factor. But they should detach it instead and make a brand new pirate franchise. Use their awesome ship combat mechanics to the max without being hindered by the assassin, scifi stuff and people complaining. The Devils of the Caribbean. Nothing is sacred and everyone is committed. Btw Mcfly would I be correct in assuming you're the same one from BSN?

ze_topazio
12-07-2013, 12:02 PM
One of the main aspects of this series is integrating the series story in the time period and location, in that aspect, it was a success, giving us the golden age of piracy and not letting us be a pirate would have been a waste, however it would be strange for a pure Assassin to become a pirate, so employing a pirate to do Assassin work and watch him gradually integrating in to the order was the right decision, so the Assassin aspect was also a success, it offered us a different perspective in the conflict, something that wouldn't have been possible with a traditional Assassin, if you look at Ezio and Connor, they were mentored in to understanding and embracing the order beliefs, because they were accept in to the order, but Edward was scorned by the Assassins and so he did it without any help, he himself came to understand and embrace the order beliefs, besides, ever since Altair changed the order the Assassins stopped being that monk like warriors anyways, so all kinds of Assassins are possible, even a ice cream seller by the day, badass Assassin by the night.

Rithrius
12-07-2013, 12:57 PM
I would have agreed with this IF they had not made AC4 already. If Ubisoft makes a pirate game now, people are just gonna rip on them for using game elements from AC to make an entirely different game which will essentially be alot like AC4.

Then again, that's exactly what they've been doing to Assassin's Creed since Brotherhood, so whatever.

Nasta_
12-07-2013, 02:13 PM
I remember the first time I was taken out of the Animus after playing Edward I was disappointed. I had completely forgotten I was playing an AC game, and was happy with how I felt about it. I wanted a new pirate game, it had been 10 years since the last one I've played, and still sometimes play, was released. And a lot of AC4 reminds me of it.
Of course I also wanted a new AC game, and although I think the Pirates setting may be my favourite setting, I have great hope for the future. As I'm also quite interested in Feudal Japan, Ancient Egypt or anything in between, both in time period and geographical location. But a pirate game franchise with the quality and depth of AC4? I'd definitely be interested. The only reason I went as far as to get the Black Chest edition was due to the Pirate setting and finally a soundtrack that was released with it, and of course the great extras.
If I'd be willing to spent that much money again on a future instalment of an AC game? I don't know, strongly depends on the setting and extras coming with it. It it was the same price as the Freedom edition I would probably do it.

In short;
I'm looking forward to new AC games, preferably not another pirate setting.
I'm also looking forward to more pirate games, especially with the freedom, depth and immersion that AC4 has delivered. Though also a less arcade version of sailing, and a multiplayer version with ships. And the most favourite feature that the 2003 Bethesda released Pirates of the Caribbean game had; having a fleet. An actual fleet, not one you don't see, but to have several AI vessels following your main, assisting you and being ordered by you.

DarktheMagister
12-07-2013, 02:45 PM
It felt like an AC game to me.

pirate1802
12-07-2013, 03:04 PM
And the most favourite feature that the 2003 Bethesda released Pirates of the Caribbean game had; having a fleet. An actual fleet, not one you don't see, but to have several AI vessels following your main, assisting you and being ordered by you.

That would be great. I kinda assumed that when I saw the option of adding ships to my fleet. It would certainly be an evolution of the AC4 system, and bin in a lot of tactical opportunities, battle plans etc.

Nasta_
12-07-2013, 03:28 PM
It felt like an AC game to me.It did to me too, but it was also a pirate game. Something the previous AC games did not have, a setting that was in it's own a game.
That would be great. I kinda assumed that when I saw the option of adding ships to my fleet. It would certainly be an evolution of the AC4 system, and bin in a lot of tactical opportunities, battle plans etc.Exactly, I thought the same thing when they were mentioning fleet. Instead we got another mini-game which was weak and takes away immersion..A simple pirate commanding an entire fleet you never see, as if you're a naval commodore. Having a fleet at your location makes more sense. Direct control, making a strong pirate fleet causing havoc where it goes. Yet to have a huge fleet you never see or group up with to take forts? Weird...

flamesium
12-07-2013, 04:34 PM
They were smart to leverage the AC brand to help make this a success, but now they've proven that this is a thing that people actually want, it would be foolish to ignore it.

Whether or not they continue to use the AC brand for it is kind of a moot point. If they have the demand and resources to be able to continue 'The Pirate Games' and 'The Assassin Games' as two distinct franchises, then they should do it. They would be much better off alternating between 'Pirate Game' and 'Proper AC Game' than they would trying to shove ship combat into AC every year.

Personally I think they should take AC proper back closer to what it was (city-based stab 'em up) and spin 'Black Flag' off as it's own thing which is only loosely connected to the AC main story / world if at all. The era they're getting to (French Rev, Napoleonic Wars etc) gives them plenty of opportunity to run two loosely connected stories parallel to each other if that's the way they want to go.

Nasta_
12-07-2013, 06:22 PM
I must say that I do feel now that the open world is as much part of AC now as the cities are, but I loved getting into Havana and finally feeling like I was in a proper cultural city again. Something I felt like I hadn't experienced in AC3 and Revelations and Brotherhood just gave us one real city. Of course with some expansion, but the essence of the different cities was gone. I'm very glad that AC4 brought that back with truly different cultural cities again.
What I feel AC3 introduced with the wilderness was great and truly innovative for the franchise, I am definitely glad it's still there in AC4. But AC4 managed to balance the two, have those. Even though in AC4 I sometimes missed being able to climb cliffs, I understand that that was a thing Connor could do, and wasn't fit for Edward. I'm assuming eventually a new assassin will come about that isn't able to run through the tree tops any more.
I hope that AC5 or whatever is next does the same.

SamBushen24
12-07-2013, 06:28 PM
One thing they must include is CO-OP!! IT MUST HAVE CO-OP. The ability to sail around on one shoptogether or on your own ships. I don't want multiplayer, like ship deathmatch, I want a co-op drop in drop out system.

Kagurra
12-07-2013, 07:38 PM
One of the main aspects of this series is integrating the series story in the time period and location, in that aspect, it was a success, giving us the golden age of piracy and not letting us be a pirate would have been a waste, however it would be strange for a pure Assassin to become a pirate, so employing a pirate to do Assassin work and watch him gradually integrating in to the order was the right decision, so the Assassin aspect was also a success, it offered us a different perspective in the conflict, something that wouldn't have been possible with a traditional Assassin, if you look at Ezio and Connor, they were mentored in to understanding and embracing the order beliefs, because they were accept in to the order, but Edward was scorned by the Assassins and so he did it without any help, he himself came to understand and embrace the order beliefs, besides, ever since Altair changed the order the Assassins stopped being that monk like warriors anyways, so all kinds of Assassins are possible, even a ice cream seller by the day, badass Assassin by the night.

This.

AssassinHMS
12-07-2013, 08:15 PM
One of the main aspects of this series is integrating the series story in the time period and location, in that aspect, it was a success, giving us the golden age of piracy and not letting us be a pirate would have been a waste, however it would be strange for a pure Assassin to become a pirate, so employing a pirate to do Assassin work and watch him gradually integrating in to the order was the right decision, so the Assassin aspect was also a success, it offered us a different perspective in the conflict, something that wouldn't have been possible with a traditional Assassin, if you look at Ezio and Connor, they were mentored in to understanding and embracing the order beliefs, because they were accept in to the order, but Edward was scorned by the Assassins and so he did it without any help, he himself came to understand and embrace the order beliefs, besides, ever since Altair changed the order the Assassins stopped being that monk like warriors anyways, so all kinds of Assassins are possible, even a ice cream seller by the day, badass Assassin by the night.

Although I agree with that, I have to say Black Flag, in many points, was handled very badly (just like most AC games).



besides, ever since Altair changed the order the Assassins stopped being that monk like warriors anyways, so all kinds of Assassins are possible, even a ice cream seller by the day, badass Assassin by the night.
That is all nice and dandy but, the moment ice creams become more important than the assassin part, the game loses all the potential as an Assassin’s Creed game. If, pretty much, the whole game revolves around selling ice creams and the ice cream mechanics are MUCH better than the assassin related mechanics, it just becomes unacceptable.
History is supposed to be the background of the game. It should influence the story and the gameplay but it shouldn’t take hold of it. The story should focus more on the Assassin/Templar conflict than on the selling ice creams part and so should gameplay. The core mechanics are a disgrace. Stealth is miserable (The first Thief, released back in 1998, has much better stealth and enemy AI than Assassin’s Creed), combat isn’t actual combat and it ruins both stealth’s and escape’s roles and navigation is completely automatic. On the other hand, the ice cream part is great. It is well developed, it is deep and it is immense. This is wrong because this isn’t an ice-cream game with assassins, this is an Assassin’s Creed game (with ice-creams), it's wrong for fans and wrong for the franchise. Where are investigations? What is the point of stealth or escaping? Why are enemies ants, not to mention dumb (AI)? Why is the assassin’s creed part of the game so underwhelming, underdeveloped, inferior (in many ways when compared to AC1), forgotten, ignored and whatnot?

This is the problem. One of the main aspects of AC is being AC and this isn’t actually AC, it’s some other game that tries to have an excuse for being called AC.
After 6 main games, how can the core mechanics be so underdeveloped and miserable when compared to other franchises or to other mechanics that aren't supposed to be core ones? Why is it that I can hardly see the actual Assassin’s Creed concept in these games? Where is the actual franchise in this franchise? Oh yeah, it’s been partially eaten and covered in ice-cream.

Shahkulu101
12-07-2013, 08:38 PM
Although I agree with that, I have to say Black Flag, in many points, was handed very badly (just like most AC games).



That is all nice and dandy but, the moment ice creams become more important than the assassin part, the game loses all the potential as an Assassin’s Creed game. If, pretty much, the whole game revolves around selling ice creams and the ice cream mechanics are the MUCH better than the assassin related mechanics, it just becomes unacceptable.
History is supposed to be the background of the game. It should influence the story and the gameplay but it shouldn’t take hold of it. The story should focus more on the Assassin/Templar conflict than on the selling ice creams part and so should gameplay. The core mechanics are a disgrace. Stealth is miserable (The first Thief, released back in 1998, has much better stealth and enemy AI than Assassin’s Creed), combat isn’t actual combat and it ruins both stealth’s and escape’s roles and navigation is completely automatic. On the other hand, the ice cream part is great. It is well developed, it is deep and it is immense. This is wrong because this isn’t an ice-cream game with assassins, this is an Assassin’s Creed game (with ice-creams), it's wrong for fans and wrong for the franchise. Where are investigations? What is the point of stealth or escaping? Why are enemies ants, not to mention dumb (AI)? Why is the assassin’s creed part of the game so underwhelming, underdeveloped, inferior (in many ways when compared to AC1), forgotten, ignored and whatnot?

This is the problem. One of the main aspects of AC is being AC and this isn’t actually AC, it’s some other game that tries to have an excuse for being called AC.
After 6 main games, how can the core mechanics be so underdeveloped and miserable when compared to other franchises or to other mechanics that aren't supposed to be core ones? Why is it that I can hardly see the actual Assassin’s Creed concept in these games? Where is the actual franchise in this franchise? Oh yeah, it’s been partially eaten and covered in ice-cream.

I agreed with this until you said ACIV AC parts were bad when compared to AC1, that is just wrong. For one, there are more open-ended assassinations, around the mid 40-50 mark when counting assassination contracts. Also, in the open-ended assassination missions there are more options that you can use to benefit your stealth approach, more routes to find and takeout your target, more assassination techniques to eliminate your target with too. You can use the blowpipe for to non-leathily take out a guard, swiftly scurry past and hide - getting closer to your target. Perhaps you want to create a commotion to draw attention away from yourself? Then find a dense stalking zone and berserk dart your targets guards, watch as the guards fight amongst themselves and leave unnoticed as your target dies by his own brethren. You can even whistle from a Corner or bench to attract them or, if you please, shoot them in the head and scurry away. NONE of this was available in AC1. So, from the actual gameplay perspective AC4 trumps AC1 considerably in the stealth department - even if it's still hugely underdeveloped.

Have you played ACIV?

pirate1802
12-07-2013, 08:47 PM
The ice cream stuff isn't more important than the assassin stuff, that is what the marketing would have you believe. Which is why I said before, before playing the game I'd have believed these arguments but once having played it, I simply can't. and the game doesn't revolve around selling ice creams. It revolves around an ice cream seller who spends some of his time selling ice creams and other times killing people. Some people sure wear rosy glasses while thinking about AC1. I mean that game had so much better stealth, combat was exciting.. obviously. And those awesome investigation missions, how exciting and innovative they were!

You can hardly see the actual Assassins Creed concept because your concept of what it is to be an Assassins Creed game is too narrow I think.. And comparing Thief that is a hardcore stealth game to AC which never was a dedicated stealth game is off, I'm sorry. Might wanna compare AC to something closer like Deus Ex.


Have you played ACIV?

I was wondering the same.

AssassinHMS
12-07-2013, 08:49 PM
I agreed with this until you said ACIV AC parts were bad when compared to AC1, that is just wrong. For one, there are more open-ended assassinations, around the mid 40-50 mark when counting assassination contracts. Also, in the open-ended assassination missions there are more options that you can use to benefit your stealth approach, more routes to find and takeout your target, more assassination techniques to eliminate your target with too. You can use the blowpipe for to non-leathily take out a guard, swiftly scurry past and hide - getting closer to your target. Perhaps you want to create a commotion to draw attention away from yourself? Then find a dense stalking zone and berserk dart your targets guards, watch as the guards fight amongst themselves and leave unnoticed as your target dies by his own brethren. You can even whistle from a Corner or bench to attract them or, if you please, shoot them in the head and scurry away. NONE of this was available in AC1. So, from the actual gameplay perspective AC4 trumps AC1 considerably in the stealth department - even if it's still hugely underdeveloped.

Have you played ACIV?

Those are the good parts. I was talking about the navigation (which is much worse than AC1), about the lack of investigations, about the enemy AI (AC4's enemy AI is dumb), etc. That line of mine was sort of a summarized analysis. You know, the assassin's creed part (all those things that I said before, not just stealth or the core mechanics by themselves but all that is part of AC, overall). It summarized all that I said before, although I recon there were improvements like the ones you mentioned.

AssassinHMS
12-07-2013, 09:06 PM
The ice cream stuff isn't more important than the assassin stuff, that is what the marketing would have you believe.
So youíre saying the assassinís creed core mechanics are better, or at least, as well developed as the mechanics around the ice cream? Are you saying the emphasis on ice-cream isnít bigger than all the effort put into the AC part? And are you saying that the assassins stuff is so important that it is, pretty much, the same thing since AC1?



I mean that game had so much better stealth, combat was exciting.. obviously. And those awesoe investigation missions, how exciting and innovative they were!
Címon, do you really believe investigations are to blame? Canít you see that what was boring was how underdeveloped they were? The concept of investigations has a lot of potential. Iíve shown that in several posts of mine. Have you ever seen my ideas on investigations (such as spying on peopleís lives in free-roam, tail, eavesdrop and pickpocket random NPCís that are in fact Templars or people that work for them?
And yeah, AC1ís stealth isnít better than AC4 BF if you compare them without looking at all the factors but put time as one of them, and you will see just how bad AC4ís stealth is compared to what it should be by now. The same can be said about investigations. They had potencial, the developers shouldnít have quit on them without even making an effort to develop them right (that is not fair and it is what makes people say they are boring when in fact they arenít). If all the rest of AC was as underdeveloped as investigations I would like to see if you wouldnít find all of it boring. And navigation was awesome in AC1 and take a look at it now.


You can hardly see the actual Assassins Creed concept because your concept of what it is to be an Assassins Creed game is too narrow I think.. And comparing Thief that is a hardcore stealth game to AC which never was a dedicated stealth game is off, I'm sorry. Might wanna compare A to something closer like Deus Ex.
Not at all, Iím simply taking on ACís pillars and concepts which are part of ACís identity. Remove them and you remove AC. You have to build on them, improve them but never replace them.
ACís core pillars are stealth, navigation and combat. If they arenít good or developed, neither is AC. That is just how it is, whether I compare it to Thief or to Angry Birds.

Shahkulu101
12-07-2013, 09:12 PM
The ice cream stuff isn't more important than the assassin stuff, that is what the marketing would have you believe. Which is why I said before, before playing the game I'd have believed these arguments but once having played it, I simply can't. and the game doesn't revolve around selling ice creams. It revolves around an ice cream seller who spends some of his time selling ice creams and other times killing people. Some people sure wear rosy glasses while thinking about AC1. I mean that game had so much better stealth, combat was exciting.. obviously. And those awesome investigation missions, how exciting and innovative they were!

You can hardly see the actual Assassins Creed concept because your concept of what it is to be an Assassins Creed game is too narrow I think.. And comparing Thief that is a hardcore stealth game to AC which never was a dedicated stealth game is off, I'm sorry. Might wanna compare AC to something closer like Deus Ex.



I was wondering the same.

I'm still wondering...

AssassinHMS
12-07-2013, 09:21 PM
I'm still wondering...

Then wonder NO MORE!!
I never bought AC BF. I am not interested in pirates and I care more about feeling like an assassin. I want a reason to use stealth, to escape from enemies. I want to feel tension and thrill. I want deep stealth mechanics (crouch, shadow/light stealth, improved social stealth, etc.) I want a challenging and fun combat system and I want an interactive navigation system. These are things that I can't get with AC4 BF. I also have other reasons (the least being I said I wouldn’t buy it, a long time ago in a thread of mine where I predicted what AC4 BF would be (and I was, if not all, then for the most part, right). Although I never played it, I watched a lot of videos about it and the only thing I haven't seen are the cutscenes, so I know what I'm talking about.

pirate1802
12-07-2013, 09:48 PM
Ofcourse, people seem to think the naval stuff is so well developed and polished because it is new. While I can see how it is as rudimentary as the land-based systems since AC1. People think its been emphasized because obviously it is a new thing. People think the naval was where all the efforts went, but if they actually played the game they'd see how much effort was put to ensure freedom. I agreed what you're saying about the mechanics not being as developed as it should have been after 6 years, but saying they are inferior than AC1 is.. I don't know how to feel about it. How is navigation much worse now, for example?

And regarding that comparison, AC's core mechanics is stealth. parkour and combat. All of them were atleast more developed than past ACs. Not as developed as they should have been by now, yet still improvements were made. Comparing to to a game whose pillars are like stealth, stealth and stealth is not fai. If a game depends in its entirety over stealth then naturally it would be more developed. That is why I said the comparison was off. Might as well compare Borderlands to Battlefield then.

ze_topazio
12-07-2013, 10:08 PM
I'm eating ice cream as we speak.

AssassinHMS
12-07-2013, 10:19 PM
Ofcourse, people seem to think the naval stuff is so well developed and polished because it is new. While I can see how it is as rudimentary as the land-based systems since AC1. People think its been emphasized because obviously it is a new thing. People think the naval was where all the efforts went, but if they actually played the game they'd see how much effort was put to ensure freedom. I agreed what you're saying about the mechanics not being as developed as it should have been after 6 years, but saying they are inferior than AC1 is.. I don't know how to feel about it. How is navigation much worse now, for example?

And regarding that comparison, AC's core mechanics is stealth. parkour and combat. All of them were atleast more developed than past ACs. Not as developed as they should have been by now, yet still improvements were made. Comparing to to a game whose pillars are like stealth, stealth and stealth is not fai. If a game depends in its entirety over stealth then naturally it would be more developed. That is why I said the comparison was off. Might as well compare Borderlands to Battlefield then.

Ok, I can agree with most of what you said but I still want to point out a few things. Naval is well developed for what it is (some could even say overdeveloped perhaps) and not simply because it is new. On the other hand, core mechanics aren’t. They have been forgotten for a long time now. Stealth finally had a little meaningful improvement but it is far from deserving the name “core mechanic”. This is why naval is more developed than stealth. If you put them side by side they may seem more or less at the same level, but if you consider their relevance given this is an Assassin’s Creed game, stealth is nothing but a tiny ant. And it isn’t just a problem of being underdeveloped, stealth has no actual point and neither does navigation in the form of escape. This is because combat does both their jobs. In order to use stealth, I have to pretend that there is a point to hide from ants and escape is just a dumb excuse. The way I see it, combat isn’t meant to be all-powerful, the player isn’t meant to be able to defeat more than 5 enemies, because that hurts the other core mechanics (and even combat itself). Not only they are pointless, there is no thrill or passion, or sense of danger, or fun, or immersion. This happens because the game puts the player above the rules, above the experience and not immersed in it. I’m not an extremist as so many people try to make me look. I’m simply fighting for balance. I want combat, I want stealth and I want navigation, the only difference is I want each one of them to have their place, their reason, their feel. I don’t want AC to be like Thief, but I do want all of the core mechanics developed and challenging (which doesn’t mean that the game is difficult or that the player will die many times). Social stealth is also lacking and it has so much potential, just like investigations.
There are also other aspects that belong to AC’s personality (other than the core mechanics) that are lacking and hurt the experience, but I’ve already discussed that many times in other threads.

As for navigation being worse, well, now it resumes to holding down a button and watch the game do everything (even if it isn’t what you wanted it to do). We must be the ones to say when and where we want the assassin to jump, to slide, to roll, to crouch, to climb, etc. The player must have control over the experience in order to feel in the shoes of an assassin. In this sense, navigation was a lot better back in AC1 than the automatic animated clip that it is today.

SamBushen24
12-07-2013, 10:32 PM
My god you lot take threads way off topic...

HiddenKiller612
12-08-2013, 01:00 AM
Then wonder NO MORE!!
I never bought AC BF. I am not interested in pirates and I care more about feeling like an assassin. I want a reason to use stealth, to escape from enemies. I want to feel tension and thrill. I want deep stealth mechanics (crouch, shadow/light stealth, improved social stealth, etc.) I want a challenging and fun combat system and I want an interactive navigation system. These are things that I can't get with AC4 BF. I also have other reasons (the least being I said I wouldnít buy it, a long time ago in a thread of mine where I predicted what AC4 BF would be (and I was, if not all, then for the most part, right). Although I never played it, I watched a lot of videos about it and the only thing I haven't seen are the cutscenes, so I know what I'm talking about.
Funny how you can form an opinion on a game you've never even played. I also feel that if you expect to gain everything, you'll end up disapointed and with nothing.

AssassinHMS
12-08-2013, 01:09 AM
Funny how you can form an opinion on a game you've never even played. I also feel that if you expect to gain everything, you'll end up disapointed and with nothing.

You mustn't have read all of the spoiler, or else I have another spoiler for you. I'm not expecting everything, unless an AC game with solid and balcanced core mechanics is too much for Ubisoft to handle.

MnemonicSyntax
12-08-2013, 05:08 AM
Lol.

I had my reservations before that the game will be a pirate game but after playing it I simply can't take people claiming that seriously. Disaster? Most of the missions take place on land, stealth and freedom is hugely emphasized. Mission design is a joy the assassinations for most part were as sandboxey as it can get. Just because the protag isn't an Assassin till the last few sequences and you use the ship to travel to different parts and have a bunch of optional naval stuff it becomes a pirate game? Riiiight. :rolleyes: I know different opinions and all, but I think I'm allowed to give my opinions on opinions lol. The naval stuff is what gives AC4 a different flavour. Take that away and watch people complain how every AC game is the same now. Which they were talking about anyway. I hope they included something different like this in every game now.

Anyway, yes they should totally make a pirate franchise out of it. I hope they don't use naval in the next game because then it'd lose its novelty factor. But they should detach it instead and make a brand new pirate franchise. Use their awesome ship combat mechanics to the max without being hindered by the assassin, scifi stuff and people complaining. The Devils of the Caribbean. Nothing is sacred and everyone is committed. Btw Mcfly would I be correct in assuming you're the same one from BSN?

Agreed. Assassins can have main jobs and still be Assassins on the side.

I'm sure a prequel to Assassin's Creed 2 would be loads of fun: Giovanni Auditore, the banker by day, Assassin at night!

"Press X to approve this loan at 5.7% interest."

Nasta_
12-08-2013, 05:45 AM
Agreed. Assassins can have main jobs and still be Assassins on the side.

I'm sure a prequel to Assassin's Creed 2 would be loads of fun: Giovanni Auditore, the banker by day, Assassin at night!

"Press X to approve this loan at 5.7% interest."

At least then you would've had enough money to buy all the monuments in Revelations.

@AssassinHMS
You have a few good points, and many not so good ones.
I'd like to add to it that, when you take AC1 as the base on which all the AC games should be made, there will never be innovation. Assassin's Creed is no longer AC1, it evolved into AC2, Brotherhood, Revelations, AC3 and AC4. It is true, AC1 had the most Assassin of the AC games, but what if AC1 never existed? Then AC4 would suddenly be just as much as an Assassin game as AC2.
AC is no longer just investigate and assassinate.
AC is historical, somewhat accurate, immersive in the time period, hidden blades, partially covered face, non-linear (open) world and interesting (historical) characters to meet, kill and befriend.

So Ubisoft...adding sea shanties to an AC game set in the golden age of piracy in the Caribbean? Well done and thank you!

AssassinHMS
12-08-2013, 12:59 PM
@AssassinHMS
You have a few good points, and many not so good ones.
I'd like to add to it that, when you take AC1 as the base on which all the AC games should be made, there will never be innovation. Assassin's Creed is no longer AC1, it evolved into AC2, Brotherhood, Revelations, AC3 and AC4. It is true, AC1 had the most Assassin of the AC games, but what if AC1 never existed? Then AC4 would suddenly be just as much as an Assassin game as AC2.
AC is no longer just investigate and assassinate.
AC is historical, somewhat accurate, immersive in the time period, hidden blades, partially covered face, non-linear (open) world and interesting (historical) characters to meet, kill and befriend.

So Ubisoft...adding sea shanties to an AC game set in the golden age of piracy in the Caribbean? Well done and thank you!

Ok. Iím forced to say that is not true. There is a concept for Assassinís Creed. This concept is what defines Assassinís Creed. If AC1 never existed, AC4 would be one of the AC games closer to ACís concept but it would be far from a true Assassinís Creed game, far from the concept. See the difference? This isnít an opinion, this is a real concept, a fact. Assassinís Creed has a definition, an identity and it sure as hell isnít an Uncharted game with mindless action plus assassins. That is what Ubisoft made this franchise to be. They adulterated the concept of AC. If you take anything that belongs into this concept, youíre getting rid of what AC is. For the franchise to evolve, this concept doesnít need to and mustnít be sacrificed. The developers must build upon it, add features to complement it with the time period, location and story, refine the core mechanics, adapt the concept to different time periods and realities, but they must never, ever, get rid of, ignore or forget the concept of Assassinís Creed.
For example, this concept involves the concept of Assassin. The concept of Assassin dictates that Assassins are, among many other things, ďdetectivesĒ. Assassins arenít simply the ones that kill the target, they are the ones that investigate, the ones that find everything about the target, about their life, etc. and they are also the ones that plan how they will strike according to the information they gathered (through open ended missions). This defines an Assassin. Investigations are a big part of AC. How can an Assassin assassinate if he doesnít investigate first? These are the concepts that must be present in every game so that it has the right to be called AC, so that it can be called AC.
People must realize that Assassinís Creed has a definition, a concept and that the evolution of a franchise (keeping a sense of freshness and all) doesnít mean the change of the concept. A concept is a concept and it must be there regardless.

Do you know why so many people think there isnít a concrete definition of AC, that AC can be any historical game with assassins? Because this franchise always treated AC as a cancer that has to be removed bit by bit and replaced with mindless action, Hollywood moments and unrelated mechanics (that hide the core mechanics so that people donít notice how underdeveloped they are).

Because of this, people are so used to see this concept adulterated, forgotten and ignored that they think it is part of the Assassinís Creed concept to ignore itself. Wrong. Absolutely wrong.

MnemonicSyntax
12-08-2013, 03:11 PM
Still think it's funny that a company that has the AC name on their IP and they are running the show and decided which direction it goes is being told they're wrong and not what AC really is.

Thank Jupiter that things change. Otherwise, Super Mario Bros. would just be a 2D 8 Bit sidescroller that you couldn't ever "go back" on with no continues after you lose all your lives.

EDIT: I also realized that one of the things Al Mualim said to Altair, in that Assassins must grow and adapt. Hmm.

GamerGirlxx
01-09-2014, 12:49 AM
I actually disagree (dont hate me haha we're all friends here) I've always liked the mix between sci-fi and historical settings within AC. It just seemed so original and ...cool! haha I mean thats why heyre making a movie right? I think they could make a game off the pirate theme but then wouldnt that just turn into Pirates of the Caribbean? I dunno... it wouldnt hold so much appeal for me. Maybe im just a picky gamer haha. I think fair enough do it if you want Ubisoft but release another game (apparently theyre two planned for this year) that keeps in tune with the series to keep other fans happy.