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View Full Version : AC4 took AC1's spot as the best and most favorite AC game for me.



Farlander1991
12-05-2013, 10:38 AM
Yep, I said it. My AC favourite is not the first one anymore. It's the fourth one. Or I guess it's the sixth one, but it's titled 'IV'.

Now, the series may not have went exactly in the direction I'd like it to after the first Assassin's Creed game (which was much more of an 'Assassin Simulator', so to speak), but that doesn't mean that Black Flag is anything less than stellar. And Ubisoft needs to put a pause on the main console releases of the series. Let me elaborate both points.

Each previous Assassin's Creed game has excelled in one or several areas. And what Assassin's Creed IV does is, quite simply, take the best from everything and put it together into one neat 'The Best of AC' package. Let's go through a list.


- (AC1) Open-ended assassination missions? Check.

- (AC1) A grey Assassins vs. Templar conflict in the story? Check.
- (AC2) Mission variety in the campaign? Check.

- (AC2) All aspects of the game neatly (and quickly) introduced and tied to the story? Check.
- (ACB) Side-activities form a loop that help drive the narrative and desired player experience forward? Check.

- (ACB) Tons of said side-activities? Check.
- (ACR) Amazing art direction? Check.
- (AC3) Updated naval system, integrated into the core mechanics and principles of the series? Check.

- (AC3) A personal (from a character perspective) touch to the Assassin vs. Templar conflict? Check.
- (AC1/AC2/AC3) A good combination of the series previous stealth systems? Check.
There are some other, more minor things as well.



There are a lot of really well-designed missions, locations. The story is amazing. Edward is an awesome character. In fact, the cast of characters is great. And the new additions, like underwater sections and whale hunting fit in with the game's core pillars and the narrative/thematic loop.


But, while Assassin's Creed IV gathers everything awesome that there is in the series together, it doesn't really fix the issues that it had.


Combat is still under-developed (though I personally do think that AC4 is the best one of the post-AC1 combat systems).
Social Stealth still doesn't open up to its possible potential.
Optional Objectives are still more about the 'how' rather than the 'what'.
The AI is far from a level that it should be at on the sixth installment.
There are still pointless collectibles that exist solely for a 100% checkmark.
Among some other things, like too few places designed around the parkour possibilities beyond "hold a directional button".


The point is, these all are tied to the very core aspects of Assassin's Creed (well, except Optional Objectives), and it's very hard to properly refocus and refine them when there's a yearly release schedule going on. Assassin's Creed IV got positive reviews and generally speaking good sales, so I suppose we'll be seeing another game next year (that is, besides Liberation HD).


And that saddens me in a way, because Assassin's Creed IV is a perfect opportunity to press the 'pause' button on the franchise. 'Alright, we've gathered the best the series already had, now let's take our time refining all the core elements to move the series forward'.


But, still, I thoroughly enjoy Assassin's Creed IV. I don't know if I'm going to write any kind of in-depth analysis series for it, though.

ProletariatPleb
12-05-2013, 10:42 AM
AC1 and 4 are the only 2 AC games I will ever think of replaying now ._.

Farlander1991
12-05-2013, 10:52 AM
AC1 and 4 are the only 2 AC games I will ever think of replaying now ._.

I wish there was an easy way to replay AC1 assassination missions. I think the other AC games have spoiled me. I recently tried replaying AC1 from the start. As much as I adore AC1's story and philosophy... I couldn't bear myself to finish the prologue. The pacing in the beginning is definitely not the best, at all.

And there's only so many times you can replay those investigation missions before getting to the assassination itself.

ProletariatPleb
12-05-2013, 10:57 AM
I wish there was an easy way to replay AC1 assassination missions. I think the other AC games have spoiled me. I recently tried replaying AC1 from the start. As much as I adore AC1's story and philosophy... I couldn't bear myself to finish the prologue. The pacing in the beginning is definitely not the best, at all.

And there's only so many times you can replay those investigation missions before getting to the assassination itself.
I find it had to replay ANY game if the plot is clear in my mind, RPGs might be the exception because of choices and games that do things dynamically. Everything just becomes predictable otherwise since you've already seen it, I lose interest very quickly then.

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 11:42 AM
Welcome aboard the AC4 fanboy ship :cool:!

You would think when they say something like AC4 being a "best of AC" that it's just marketing BS. I was shocked when it actually turned out to be true (your list is spot on). The mission locations, as you say, are just brilliant for the most part. Well thought out and varied. I think Darby found a really good tone in the story. It's serious and has some heavy moments, but it's also a great adventure tale with a colorful cast.

When it comes to the issues you listed I agree pretty much with that list as well. Combat is the next gameplay pillar in need of a serious renovation. I say "next" as I think stealth was lifted to a fair standard. I realize the AI has been pretty much lobotomized, but at least it's not annoying anymore! When it comes to optional objectives I agree with you in principle. However it was kind of a non-issue for me as I never saw the objectives until the mission was over which was great as I could just play how I wanted without worrying about the facit.

Collectibles are a real issue to me, but it's like that in all modern games pretty much. I guess a design that allows you to sell time saving packs has some merits... I wish they would reconsider though as it cheapens the experience some and taint the gameworld. It's no dealbreaker though. Parkour is weird because on one hand it's a super, super impressive technical feat. No other franchise comes close to having an open world with this level of platform-resolution. On the other hand I really, really would like to be more involved.



But, still, I thoroughly enjoy Assassin's Creed IV. I don't know if I'm going to write any kind of in-depth analysis series for it, though.

I think you should wait a bit at least. There's lots of nonsense in the forums this time of year. Your analysis will be buried under outfit requests, "why isn't this piece of pointless equipment in the game", "why did they remove this mechanic from the old games", "this is not a real AC game" etc -threads. I want to discuss social stealth+eaves-dropping/tailing missions with you at some point though :).

ProletariatPleb
12-05-2013, 11:46 AM
^He HATES me!

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 11:48 AM
^He HATES me!

No I don't :(. Why are you saying this, WHY :confused:

Farlander1991
12-05-2013, 12:05 PM
I say "next" as I think stealth was lifted to a fair standard.

Stealth (both social, and standard, and the combination of social and standard in a number of mission) was lifted to a fair standard, but now they have to refine it, I think.


I guess a design that allows you to sell time saving packs has some merits...

Eh... I was really angry when I saw the time saving collectibles, to be honest. It kind of sends the wrong vibe, I think.


Parkour is weird because on one hand it's a super, super impressive technical feat. No other franchise comes close to having an open world with this level of platform-resolution. On the other hand I really, really would like to be more involved.

Well, it varies. I've mentioned in one of the threads that at first I've missed the 'leap and grip' moves from AC2/ACB, but then I thought to myself, they really kinda screw up with the flow. I think parkour should be based on holding and releasing extra buttons rather than pressing a bunch of extra buttons. Like vaulting works in AC4, only, you know, expanded more widely and with bigger purpose (at least in parkour-specific missions, though there's really not much of those in AC4). You still keep paying attention on the screen and do stuff, but you don't fiddle around with the controller or keyboard. Plus, stuff like this won't overcomplicate the open-world navigation (for which, as far as I remember from our previous convos, we've already established that traditional platforming mechanics won't work).

But AC series has really spoiled me. Sometimes I'm playing a game with platforming elements in it, and I'm like, "What do you mean I CAN'T climb that?!" :D

shobhit7777777
12-05-2013, 12:05 PM
I'm not surprised ;)

Its a fantastic game.

I feel that the next AC game should look at the following from 3 AC titles:

1. AC1 - The overall assassination structure
2. ACR - Urban atmosphere civillian density, Missions and activities involving social stealth (Templar Dens), Systemic gameplay tools
3. AC4 - Streamlined design, narrative-gameplay coherence, robust stealth mechanics

One thing I REALLY felt AC4 missed out on was providing ample platform to showcase the social stealth improvements and the robust AI WITHIN the cities.

Blending and sneaking about in the urban environments is great fun yet there are hardly any missions apart from eavesdropping that emphasize this. The game is designed for a MIX of parkour, social stealth and sneaking about....yet it never provides a playground where you can seamlessly enjoy them all.

Think of the Templar Dens in ACR - You could do so much in so many ways. The urban setting and civilians meant that a social stealth approach was allowed...with the presence of free-running and combat always being present.

I plan to do an in-depth analysis of this in a mission design thread....soon.

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 12:22 PM
Stealth (both social, and standard, and the combination of social and standard in a number of mission) was lifted to a fair standard, but now they have to refine it, I think.

Agree :).


Eh... I was really angry when I saw the time saving collectibles, to be honest. It kind of sends the wrong vibe, I think.

It's a bit too Zynga for me too. Like I said, I think it cheapens/taints the experience some.




Well, it varies. I've mentioned in one of the threads that at first I've missed the 'leap and grip' moves from AC2/ACB, but then I thought to myself, they really kinda screw up with the flow. I think parkour should be based on holding and releasing extra buttons rather than pressing a bunch of extra buttons. Like vaulting works in AC4, only, you know, expanded more widely and with bigger purpose (at least in parkour-specific missions, though there's really not much of those in AC4). You still keep paying attention on the screen and do stuff, but you don't fiddle around with the controller or keyboard. Plus, stuff like this won't overcomplicate the open-world navigation (for which, as far as I remember from our previous convos, we've already established that traditional platforming mechanics won't work).

But AC series has really spoiled me. Sometimes I'm playing a game with platforming elements in it, and I'm like, "What do you mean I CAN'T climb that?!" :D

Not sure about the leap-grip, but I do miss the "hold B to grip while falling". Noticed that while replaying AC2. It gives rise to some tense "OMG will I make it"-kind of moments. The automatic stuff in AC3 is just not the same.

Traditional Mario type platforming (judging how long to jump etc) won't work at all. I do think having some, generous, time window for stuff like vault and slide would be good though as tapping is an active action and it feels more like you are doing something. They are alos non essential moves to get around, they only speed things up.

Yeah in other games I feel grounded lol. Like in GTA with all those box-skyscrapers you really can't do anything with. Also treeparkour has made games like The Witcher feel a bit stiff at times.

Farlander1991
12-05-2013, 12:31 PM
It's a bit too Zynga for me too. Like I said, I think it cheapens/taints the experience some.

I don't really mind such practices in multiplayer, because sometimes there can't be enough time and it really doesn't make you better at playing the game (I would argue that it's better not to pay to get stuff so you would gain experience), plus there are possible social elements like "I want to play with my friends but I couldn't for a month or two and now they're too far ahead". But when it seeps into single-player, it feels like they're saying, "Hey, just so you know, some of our content or systems aren't really worth your time..." :(


Not sure about the leap-grip, but I do miss the "hold B to grip while falling".

Well, that's still present in AC3/AC4 during the non-safe jumps (which are the only jumps the 'hold B to grip while falling' mattered for in previous AC games anyway). You just hold the high profile button instead. I even learned how to make side-jumps like I had in previous AC games too :) (you know, when you jump to the side parallel to the surface you're climbing and then grip that same surface).


Traditional Mario type platforming (judging how long to jump etc) won't work at all.

Well, even UBi's PoP platforming (which is closer to AC in sense that a lot of jumps are adapted depending on the situations) won't work I feel.

SixKeys
12-05-2013, 02:48 PM
Not having finished the game, I can't rate where it falls on my AC favorites list just yet. I definitely agree with most of Farlander's points. I love the variety in mission structure and the freedom to complete missions the way we want (no more instant desynch in most missions, yay!).

I've never been that hung up on the combat as I just button-mash my way through it. AI is a bigger concern for me. The enemies are about as stupid as AC2 guards, but OTOH making them stupider than in AC3 improved the stealth in this game, so it's kind of a double-edged sword. Clearly they still haven't found the right balance. I wish we could have enemies as smart as in The Last of Us.

My biggest concerns with AC4 so far are:

-Story/characters. They're just not....very good. So much missed potential with such iconic characters. I disagree about the grey morality of AC1 being back, I really haven't sensed any of that in this game so far. I'll probably write up a longer post about the story once I've finished the whole campaign, so I won't go into more detail now.

-Replayability. This mostly has to do with the cities. In AC2 there were a ton of assassination contracts that would keep you going back from one city to the other. In AC4 there are only 30 in total, about 6 in each major city. If you do all of Havana's contracts in one go, there's no reason to ever go back there again. It's such a beautiful city with such great freerunning possibilities and atmosphere. I want to keep going back there, but as I've already collected everything in that location, there's absolutely nothing to do. Same with Nassau. On the one hand, I'm enjoying myself so much that I don't want the game to end, on the other I can't really see myself starting it over as soon as I finish it, unlike most of the other AC games. That's because the other games gave me the desire to keep revisiting the various locations. As beautiful as they are, there's only so many times you want to visit all the similar-looking sandbanks and jungles in AC4.

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 03:24 PM
Well, that's still present in AC3/AC4 during the non-safe jumps (which are the only jumps the 'hold B to grip while falling' mattered for in previous AC games anyway). You just hold the high profile button instead. I even learned how to make side-jumps like I had in previous AC games too :) (you know, when you jump to the side parallel to the surface you're climbing and then grip that same surface).

Wow had no idea of these features, thanks!


Well, even UBi's PoP platforming (which is closer to AC in sense that a lot of jumps are adapted depending on the situations) won't work I feel.

Yeah jumping is probably best to let the game handle. Like for example when you are messing around in the ship riggings it would be messy as hell to have manual jumps.

One thing I noticed when I replayed Sands of Time earlier this year is that the rope swinging mechanic in that game still feels real good. Maybe that could be something to add :).



Not having finished the game, I can't rate where it falls on my AC favorites list just yet. I definitely agree with most of Farlander's points. I love the variety in mission structure and the freedom to complete missions the way we want (no more instant desynch in most missions, yay!).

I've never been that hung up on the combat as I just button-mash my way through it. AI is a bigger concern for me. The enemies are about as stupid as AC2 guards, but OTOH making them stupider than in AC3 improved the stealth in this game, so it's kind of a double-edged sword. Clearly they still haven't found the right balance. I wish we could have enemies as smart as in The Last of Us.

My biggest concerns with AC4 so far are:

-Story/characters. They're just not....very good. So much missed potential with such iconic characters. I disagree about the grey morality of AC1 being back, I really haven't sensed any of that in this game so far. I'll probably write up a longer post about the story once I've finished the whole campaign, so I won't go into more detail now.

-Replayability. This mostly has to do with the cities. In AC2 there were a ton of assassination contracts that would keep you going back from one city to the other. In AC4 there are only 30 in total, about 6 in each major city. If you do all of Havana's contracts in one go, there's no reason to ever go back there again. It's such a beautiful city with such great freerunning possibilities and atmosphere. I want to keep going back there, but as I've already collected everything in that location, there's absolutely nothing to do. Same with Nassau. On the one hand, I'm enjoying myself so much that I don't want the game to end, on the other I can't really see myself starting it over as soon as I finish it, unlike most of the other AC games. That's because the other games gave me the desire to keep revisiting the various locations. As beautiful as they are, there's only so many times you want to visit all the similar-looking sandbanks and jungles in AC4.


One sort of flawed balance thing is that there are several staged crew-recruiting mini-missions in Havanna (like a hanging, big brawl, a small stealth section etc), but the game is a little too nice when it comes to replenish your crew at sea. So frequently you will not notice these activities which is a bit of a shame.

MnemonicSyntax
12-05-2013, 03:27 PM
Agreed. I think that when you took over a ship if you didn't get any crew members, that'd be great.

SixKeys
12-05-2013, 03:27 PM
One sort of flawed balance thing is that there are several staged crew-recruiting mini-missions in Havanna (like a hanging, big brawl, a small stealth section etc), but the game is a little too nice when it comes to replenish your crew at sea. So frequently you will not notice these activities which is a bit of a shame.

Definitely. I completely forgot about about the crew recruiting missions until a little while ago since I always kept picking up sailors at sea. I had to intentionally get myself into a few big battles and lose some crew members so I could get the "Siren Song" achievement.

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 03:29 PM
Yeah, I can see the logic of you recruiting the other ships crew (and this is historically accurate as well), but I agree it would benefit the experience if this was removed, tuned down a bit.

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 03:29 PM
Agreed. I think that when you took over a ship if you didn't get any crew members, that'd be great.

Yeah, I can see the logic of you recruiting the other ships crew (and this is historically accurate as well), but I agree it would benefit the experience if this was removed, tuned down a bit.

Farlander1991
12-05-2013, 04:01 PM
I disagree about the grey morality of AC1 being back, I really haven't sensed any of that in this game so far.

I'm not saying it's on the level of AC1/AC3, but it's there, at times even subtly so.


In AC2 there were a ton of assassination contracts that would keep you going back from one city to the other.

Well, AC2 also has 30 contracts. Florence and Venice have 8, Tuscany and Forli - 7. I wouldn't say that there's THAT big of a difference in that regard, or that AC2 is any better, as I'd usually complete the contracts in AC2 as soon as they appeared (which is usually when you're doing a sequence in that city), so the result was no different than what's happening now with Havana.

And I've decided to do side-quests only when they 'officially' open through the story, so I've returned to Havana more than a few times for missions, but, yeah, unless it's your chosen play style you can complete almost everything from the get go (with the exception of the Templar Hunt).

MnemonicSyntax
12-05-2013, 04:05 PM
Here's a question for you guys, you ever try right or left shoulder leaning and using ranged weapon? When I left lean, and use either blowgun (either darts) or the pistols, the reticule works fine, but if I right shoulder lean, the blowgun reticule goes into the wall (either dart) but the pistols work correctly.

Does this happen to you guys?

Sushiglutton
12-05-2013, 05:14 PM
Here's a question for you guys, you ever try right or left shoulder leaning and using ranged weapon? When I left lean, and use either blowgun (either darts) or the pistols, the reticule works fine, but if I right shoulder lean, the blowgun reticule goes into the wall (either dart) but the pistols work correctly.

Does this happen to you guys?

Yeah I have the same issue. Hopefully this will get corrected for the next game.

egriffin09
12-05-2013, 05:22 PM
-Replayability. This mostly has to do with the cities. In AC2 there were a ton of assassination contracts that would keep you going back from one city to the other. In AC4 there are only 30 in total.

AC 2 only had about 30 assassination contracts as well, but the difference between AC 2 and AC4 assassination contracts is that AC4's contracts became open a few hours into the game. Where as some of AC 2's assassination contracts were still becoming open up until the end of the game. Which made it seem like alot more because you couldn't do them all at once like half-way through the game like in AC IV.

I don't know how you play AC, but personally, I did like 1 assassination contract here, do other stuff (forts, collecting, boarding, etc) in between some main missions, 2 contracts, there and so on. I basically spread assassination contracts out throughout between doing all the other side content and main missions, so I won't do them all at once. I still have 10 left that are picked up from pigeon coops on the island locations.

I'm still playing AC IV, even though I haven't played in the last couple days, been busy. I do agree that there is only so many time you can visit those sandbanks, and islands with taverns and games. But when I beat the other AC games, I didn't replay them right away. usually within 2-3 months.

I just have a feeling when I replay AC 4 a few months down the road, I will be like "Wow, I forgot how good this game is" A thought I haven't had since AC 2 tbh.

Landruner
12-05-2013, 05:51 PM
AC1 and 4 are the only 2 AC games I will ever think of replaying now ._.

HahHAHhaahaha!!!! LOL!!!!;):p:rolleyes:!!!!
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTK8YQ-DUP9X7pQgveOoyd8UJYNrQIAdgm8Y-hJdw6sBBxmR4vKDfFzOgnc (https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdwallpapersview.com%2F funny-monkey.html&h=0&w=0&sz=1&tbnid=amGErEB8x4ZoNM&tbnh=177&tbnw=284&zoom=1&docid=nzcayuLF1DiyAM&ei=JrCgUsyLI5LmkAePpIDIAg&ved=0CAIQsCUoAA)

Landruner
12-05-2013, 05:55 PM
Here's a question for you guys, you ever try right or left shoulder leaning and using ranged weapon? When I left lean, and use either blowgun (either darts) or the pistols, the reticule works fine, but if I right shoulder lean, the blowgun reticule goes into the wall (either dart) but the pistols work correctly.

Does this happen to you guys?

Yep it happened to me when I tried to do that, I saw what you mean and describe above.

STDlyMcStudpants
12-05-2013, 06:06 PM
It's close to replacing AC3..... but im only 27% done and it already passed AC 1 and the ezio trilogy for me.
But like AC3 I feel like it couldve been a much better game without the AC name attached to it.....
I wouldn't have minded if the Assassins Creed Trilogy ended with AC 3 and Ubi launches a new history only ip.
Because as an AC game AC IV isn't good but as a game in general its outstanding. GOTY for me.

Edit: Then again..I guess it's a good thing the past 2 games haven't fit the mold, it allows more room for creativity not keeping devs in a bubble of what AC should be...but OH how I miss social stealth.
The AC IV world just isn't set up for it.... it's more ah this is a city, we cant place a bush so lets place 3 people here kind of thing..just doesnt feel right.

AssassinHMS
12-05-2013, 06:40 PM
But like AC3 I feel like it couldve been a much better game without the AC name attached to it.....
Because as an AC game AC IV isn't good but as a game in general its outstanding. GOTY for me.I definitely have to agree with this. These are interesting points.


I too think that AC4 (as well as AC3, to an extent) wouldíve been better without the AC name slapped in the cover.
But why is it that Assassinís Creed feels like a burden in AC games? Why does Ubisoft feel the need to include AC in AC and add some assassins to justify it?
I would guess itís because the name ďACĒ sells. Problem is, AC sells for what it is not. Does it sell due to the innovative navigation system? It used to, but now, instead of improving, it became automatic and a lot worse. Does AC sell due to a deep and significant stealth system? Ahahah. Or does AC sell due to an innovative, refined and fun combat system? Never heard of that feature.

Yup, AC sells (in terms of gameplay) due to what it is not, an Uncharted game full of cheap violence, mindless fun and with naval, plus assassins. So, if the Assassinís Creed part (the core mechanics, the essence, the concept) is such a burden to Ubisoft (given that they run away from all of that and almost ignore such existence), why do they feel the need to add the words ďACĒ to the title and to justify it somehow? Perhaps to poke fun at Patrice.

Shahkulu101
12-05-2013, 06:46 PM
I definitely have to agree with this. These are interesting points.


I too think that AC4 (as well as AC3, to an extent) would’ve been better without the AC name slapped in the cover.
But why is it that Assassin’s Creed feels like a burden in AC games? Why does Ubisoft feel the need to include AC in AC and add some assassins to justify it?
I would guess it’s because the name “AC” sells. Problem is, AC sells for what it is not. Does it sell due to the innovative navigation system? It used to, but now, instead of improving, it became automatic and a lot worse. Does AC sell due to a deep and significant stealth system? Ahahah. Or does AC sell due to an innovative, refined and fun combat system? Never heard of that feature.

Yup, AC sells (in terms of gameplay) due to what it is not, an Uncharted game full of cheap violence, mindless fun and with naval, plus assassins. So, if the Assassin’s Creed part (the core mechanics, the essence, the concept) is such a burden to Ubisoft (given that they run away from all of that and almost ignore such existence), why do they feel the need to add the words “AC” to the title and to justify it somehow? Perhaps to poke fun at Patrice.

Oh Patrice, the guy who gave up on the Assassin simulator concept and brought us the historical GTA that was AC2. Really don't know why he's worshipped as a god by the people who proclaim themselves 'true' fans of the series when he's the one that decided to mix up the formula.

AssassinHMS
12-05-2013, 06:53 PM
Oh Patrice, the guy who gave up on the Assassin simulator concept and brought us the historical GTA that was AC2. Really don't know why he's worshipped as a god by the people who proclaim themselves 'true' fans of the series when he's the one that decided to mix up the formula.

Did he give up on his own or was he "forced" to? Then why would he leave after AC2? And why would there have been all that fuss if it was so easy for him to give up on his franchises?

Shahkulu101
12-05-2013, 07:05 PM
Did he give up on his own or was he "forced" to? Then why would he leave after AC2? And why would there have been all that fuss if it was so easy for him to give up on his franchises?

AC2 was his project to make, he was the creative director so decided to change the concept of AC games considerably from the first AC game. He left because he was losing control of his projects and would be forced to make them yearly - not because ubi was forcing him to make his games differently, his style of AC games that HE created happend to sell well. He wasn't forced to give up on his actual ideas, development on AC2 began as AC1 was being made, so there was no reception for Ubisoft to judge by. So why would they force him to change the concept, did they telepathically know AC1 wouldn't be received well to the general gaming audience.

STDlyMcStudpants
12-05-2013, 07:10 PM
I definitely have to agree with this. These are interesting points.


I too think that AC4 (as well as AC3, to an extent) wouldíve been better without the AC name slapped in the cover.
But why is it that Assassinís Creed feels like a burden in AC games? Why does Ubisoft feel the need to include AC in AC and add some assassins to justify it?
.

I wouldn't say the AC name is a burden...just that a game built on cities and social stealth is now a game that gives you smoke bombs and the option to throw money when there is never anyone around.
Yes I hate beggars in the streets, but they made the city feel alive...I mean even ac3 had children run up to you and ask for money. In AC IV everyone stays out of your way on the side of the streets.
Yes they are a nuisance when youre trying to run away, but isn't that what made the first 4 games so magical? Isn't that why we choose the roof tops over the street?
I'm just saying if you arent going to stick to foundation, don't call it AC.
Make a new IP with the AC engine. (Kind of lke watch_dogs which tbh if it does well enough i believe will end up taking ACs place this gen like how AC took prince of persias place)
But that name does give you an excuse to be a mass murderer lol.
If the game were just called Black Flag, id feel more like a criminal t an a hero killing everyone lol

SixKeys
12-05-2013, 07:12 PM
I'm not saying it's on the level of AC1/AC3, but it's there, at times even subtly so.



Well, AC2 also has 30 contracts. Florence and Venice have 8, Tuscany and Forli - 7. I wouldn't say that there's THAT big of a difference in that regard, or that AC2 is any better, as I'd usually complete the contracts in AC2 as soon as they appeared (which is usually when you're doing a sequence in that city), so the result was no different than what's happening now with Havana.

And I've decided to do side-quests only when they 'officially' open through the story, so I've returned to Havana more than a few times for missions, but, yeah, unless it's your chosen play style you can complete almost everything from the get go (with the exception of the Templar Hunt).

Really? It felt like AC2 had more. Maybe because I usually did 1-2 contracts at a time. I think AC4 feels different because you can check at any time exactly what and how many things you're still missing in each location. "6 contracts", "15 chests", "3 secrets" etc. Why even tell us the number of 'secrets' when they're all marked on your map anyway? Wouldn't it be more fun to simply tell us "there are X number of secrets on this island, find them for full synchronization", like the treasure maps.

SixKeys
12-05-2013, 07:14 PM
Did he give up on his own or was he "forced" to? Then why would he leave after AC2? And why would there have been all that fuss if it was so easy for him to give up on his franchises?

In one interview he said that he left ACB because even though AC was his "baby", he was getting sick of it after 3 games one after the other. Basically he wanted to move on to other projects while Ubi wanted to continue milking AC. So no, he wasn't forced, he quit of his own volition.

Shahkulu101
12-05-2013, 07:19 PM
Imagine they stuck to the 3 games, 3 ancestors project. It may have been a little more respectable if that were the case.

Then again, if it weren't for BH releasing just after I played AC2 at a friends, I'd have probably forgot about the series and wouldn't be a gamer today.

AssassinHMS
12-05-2013, 07:26 PM
AC2 was his project to make, he was the creative director so decided to change the concept of AC games considerably from the first AC game. He left because he was losing control of his projects and would be forced to make them yearly - not because ubi was forcing him to make his games differently, his style of AC games that HE created happend to sell well. He wasn't forced to give up on his actual ideas, development on AC2 began as AC1 was being made, so there was no reception for Ubisoft to judge by. So why would they force him to change the concept, did they telepathically know AC1 wouldn't be received well to the general gaming audience.


AC1 was released in 2007 and AC2 in 2009. They don't start doing the actual game right from the beginning, so there was more than enough time for them to scan the reception and make, if so desired, big changes. Now, I won't say I know he was forced, but it does seem strange for him to give up, on his own, on the franchise he, himself created. For the record, I consider AC2 a great AC game, in terms of feel, location, atmosphere and overall concept. What I didn’t like at all was the removal of open ended assassinations, the lack of focus on developing the core mechanics plus the absence of investigations (like every other AC game so far) and the more self-centered story. So I don’t know if Patrice was pressured to let go of these aspects but, if you look closely, you can see that AC2 is a response to AC1’s reception. The variety in missions, the lack of the (so called boring) investigations, a bigger and more diverse open world, more action, better pace and less animus involvement, etc.
So yeah, AC2 was, in a way, a direct response to AC1. I personally think Patrice was pressured into giving up on AC’s core and concept but, if you have proof of otherwise, I’ll gladly hear it. Anyway, I won’t touch this Patrice issue much more since it is inconclusive, but there is no denying to the veracity of the rest of my original post.

AssassinHMS
12-05-2013, 07:34 PM
In one interview he said that he left ACB because even though AC was his "baby", he was getting sick of it after 3 games one after the other. Basically he wanted to move on to other projects while Ubi wanted to continue milking AC. So no, he wasn't forced, he quit of his own volition.

Yes, I am aware of that. I know he quit willingly, I'm just saying it's strange that he changed AC's concept (plus ignoring the core mechanics in need for development) from AC1 to AC2 on his own. That is what I meant when saying he was pressured, not to leave, but to ditch the AC concept (open ended missions, investigations, core mechanics,etc.).

shobhit7777777
12-05-2013, 07:38 PM
Yes, I am aware of that. I know he quit willingly, I'm just saying it's strange that he changed AC's concept (plus ignoring the core mechanics in need for development) from AC1 to AC2 on his own. That is what I meant when saying he was pressured, not to leave, but to ditch the AC concept (open ended missions, investigations, core mechanics,etc.).

Come to think of it...the only thing dropped from AC1 is the mission structure....which TBF was the single biggest complaint against AC1. AC2 was an improvement in every single way....even though I feel that investigations should make a comeback.

Landruner
12-05-2013, 07:39 PM
Oh Patrice, the guy who gave up on the Assassin simulator concept and brought us the historical GTA that was AC2. Really don't know why he's worshipped as a god by the people who proclaim themselves 'true' fans of the series when he's the one that decided to mix up the formula.

Come on Dude Seriously?! Patrice's original concept was not a simulator concept neither for AC1 or even for AC2, that Ubisoft that screwed his original concept during the conception of the first one.

Hans684
12-05-2013, 07:42 PM
Yes, I am aware of that. I know he quit willingly, I'm just saying it's strange that he changed AC's concept (plus ignoring the core mechanics in need for development) from AC1 to AC2 on his own. That is what I meant when saying he was pressured, not to leave, but to ditch the AC concept (open ended missions, investigations, core mechanics,etc.).

He also said in an other interview that he consider AC1 the "purest" AC game. For me AC1 is the only AC game that can be looked at as a 'historical Hitman', but that's just an opinion.

Shahkulu101
12-05-2013, 07:43 PM
AC1 was released in 2007 and AC2 in 2009. They don't start doing the actual game right from the beginning, so there was more than enough time for them to scan the reception and make, if so desired, big changes. Now, I won't say I know he was forced, but it does seem strange for him to give up, on his own, on the franchise he, himself created. For the record, I consider AC2 a great AC game, in terms of feel, location, atmosphere and overall concept. What I didn’t like at all was the removal of open ended assassinations, the lack of focus on developing the core mechanics plus the absence of investigations (like every other AC game so far) and the more self-centered story. So I don’t know if Patrice was pressured to let go of these aspects but, if you look closely, you can see that AC2 is a response to AC1’s reception. The variety in missions, the lack of the (so called boring) investigations, a bigger and more diverse open world, more action, better pace and less animus involvement, etc.
So yeah, AC2 was, in a way, a direct response to AC1. I personally think Patrice was pressured into giving up on AC’s core and concept but, if you have proof of otherwise, I’ll gladly hear it. Anyway, I won’t touch this Patrice issue much more since it is inconclusive, but there is no denying to the veracity of the rest of my original post.

Like you said, whether he was forced to give up on the concept or not is all a matter of opinions. So to me, when I look at AC2 and what a brilliant, beautiful game it is, It seems to me that Patrice put his heart and soul into the game - it doesn't feel to me that he was forced to develop concepts that weren't his own - but we all think differently and there is no definitive answer to this question.

Shahkulu101
12-05-2013, 07:46 PM
Come on Dude Seriously?! Patrice's original concept was not a simulator concept neither for AC1 or even for AC2, that Ubisoft that screwed his original concept during the conception of the first one.

And you know Ubisoft screwed up the conception how?

Hans684
12-05-2013, 07:47 PM
But we all think differently and there is no definitive answer to this question.

Except this answer.

MnemonicSyntax
12-05-2013, 08:27 PM
Yeah I have the same issue. Hopefully this will get corrected for the next game.


Yep it happened to me when I tried to do that, I saw what you mean and describe above.

Okay, good. I've reported this as a bug then.

I'm fairly sure it would be easy to resolve, the right shoulder lean script for the blowgun reticule just needs to have it's axis realigned. From the position, I'm willing to bet the coordinates for the left shoulder lean for the blowgun would just need to be reversed for the right, so for example if the left side is (93,44,23) (XYZ coordinates for reticule point of origin), it would just need to have the X or the Y or the XY coordinates flipped, to a negative

AssassinHMS
12-05-2013, 08:52 PM
Come to think of it...the only thing dropped from AC1 is the mission structure....which TBF was the single biggest complaint against AC1. AC2 was an improvement in every single way....even though I feel that investigations should make a comeback.
Precisely! I too think investigations need to make a comeback. There is just so much potential there, but Ubisoft just refuses to give AC a chance. It would be great if AC5 would let us spy on people's lives (investigate), eavesdrop on random conversations, etc.

Imagine an AC game where we can explore the interior of houses and where assassination missions need to be unlocked and are divided into difficulty levels. Now, while in free-roam, by using shadow/light stealth, the player could approach a random group of NPCs, talking to each other, undetected. Then, if the player so desires, he can stick around and eavesdrop on the conversation. This would trigger a random event where, the NPCs would start talking about possessing a treasure or some valuables hidden inside their house. After completing the eavesdropping, the player could tail that NPC and discover the location of said house. In order to avoid detection, as well as a conflict with an innocent person, the player could break in (by entering through an open window or by pickpocketing the NPC's key. Once inside, the player would find the valuables and steal them. In some cases, among the valuables, there could be a letter that would mention the person who gave those valuables to the NPC and the reasons behind it. It could be, for example, that the NPC was working for a Templar and the valuables were in fact a reward for some job. This would lead to an assassination mission (previously locked) where the objective is to eliminate the Templar threat.
Another example of the potential behind investigations would be random NPCs walking the streets that are in fact Templars or people who work for them (from priests to beggars). Imagine you’re wondering around, just exploring the city, when you notice a priest passing nearby. If you look carefully, you will notice a Templar cross and, if you use eagle vision, he will be marked in golden. By tailing the target through the streets, you will eventually arrive at some church. Inside you follow the priest while using crowds and shadows to remain undetected until he leads you to a secluded place and uses a lever which unveils a hidden passage. After he “vanishes”, you pull the same lever and, as the secret door closes behind you, you start to hear the sound of people whispering. As you delve deeper into what appears to be a tomb, you discover that you are in a Templar’s hideout. There you can eavesdrop on the meeting (if you wish), or you can deal with the threat. Those who want to simply walk right in and expose themselves can do so, but will have to face more enemies at once, while those who choose the stealth path, can take down the guards silently, leaving the Templars unprotected. Then, it would only be a matter of interrupting the meeting and make sure none of the Templars escapes.
So, yeah, these are just examples of some random events/side missions that could make investigations shine and combine the best elements of AC (investigations, chasing, tailing, assassinating, planning, etc.)

Hans684
12-05-2013, 10:02 PM
Precisely! I too think investigations need to make a comeback. There is just so much potential there, but Ubisoft just refuses to give AC a chance. It would be great if AC5 would let us spy on people's lives (investigate), eavesdrop on random conversations, etc.

Imagine an AC game where we can explore the interior of houses and where assassination missions need to be unlocked and are divided into difficulty levels. Now, while in free-roam, by using shadow/light stealth, the player could approach a random group of NPCs, talking to each other, undetected. Then, if the player so desires, he can stick around and eavesdrop on the conversation. This would trigger a random event where, the NPCs would start talking about possessing a treasure or some valuables hidden inside their house. After completing the eavesdropping, the player could tail that NPC and discover the location of said house. In order to avoid detection, as well as a conflict with an innocent person, the player could break in (by entering through an open window or by pickpocketing the NPC's key. Once inside, the player would find the valuables and steal them. In some cases, among the valuables, there could be a letter that would mention the person who gave those valuables to the NPC and the reasons behind it. It could be, for example, that the NPC was working for a Templar and the valuables were in fact a reward for some job. This would lead to an assassination mission (previously locked) where the objective is to eliminate the Templar threat.
Another example of the potential behind investigations would be random NPCs walking the streets that are in fact Templars or people who work for them (from priests to beggars). Imagine you’re wondering around, just exploring the city, when you notice a priest passing nearby. If you look carefully, you will notice a Templar cross and, if you use eagle vision, he will be marked in golden. By tailing the target through the streets, you will eventually arrive at some church. Inside you follow the priest while using crowds and shadows to remain undetected until he leads you to a secluded place and uses a lever which unveils a hidden passage. After he “vanishes”, you pull the same lever and, as the secret door closes behind you, you start to hear the sound of people whispering. As you delve deeper into what appears to be a tomb, you discover that you are in a Templar’s hideout. There you can eavesdrop on the meeting (if you wish), or you can deal with the threat. Those who want to simply walk right in and expose themselves can do so, but will have to face more enemies at once, while those who choose the stealth path, can take down the guards silently, leaving the Templars unprotected. Then, it would only be a matter of interrupting the meeting and make sure none of the Templars escapes.
So, yeah, these are just examples of some random events/side missions that could make investigations shine and combine the best elements of AC (investigations, chasing, tailing, assassinating, planning, etc.)


Have to say, it's your best idea so far, but engine needed sounds like a mix of the W_D engine, AC engine with a spark of SC engine.

AssassinHMS
12-06-2013, 12:19 AM
Have to say, it's your best idea so far, but engine needed sounds like a mix of the W_D engine, AC engine with a spark of SC engine.

Perhaps. I don't know much about those engines. Anyway, all I'm doing is use AC's strengths, which is what Ubisoft should've done in the first place instead of giving up on investigations, open ended missions, core mechanics, etc.
These random events would add a lot replay value and immersion as they can happen anywhere and anytime. AC4 did a good thing by adding random events in the sea but the land is still boring given its potential. All AC games so far have lively cities but, in the end, they feel sort of "dead" as there is nothing unexpected that breaks the routine or that spontaneously captures the player's attention. Random events are one way to end this stillness and shake things up.
AC’s multiplayer is full of interesting ideas that, I believe, would be a success in single player. From designing options (such as the ability to customize the character. Imagine being able to choose different hidden blade mechanisms from the standard assassin blade to the rotating Prowler’s hidden blade or even the Priest’s retractable knife) to gameplay ideas. Pursuers for instance. After you kill a target in an assassination mission, there could be people (relatives or friends of the target you killed) that want revenge. They could hunt you themselves or send pursuers that could attack you anytime during free-roam. This would avoid the occasional numbness of wondering around aimlessly between missions, by forcing the player to stay alert for pursuers. There would be many ways to evade the pursuers or to gain the upper hand (just like in Multiplayer) giving the opportunity to stun him. Once stunned we could interrogate the killer and find out who sent him. This could develop into side missions where the hunted becomes the hunter and vice-versa. Once we located the person responsible, we could plan our assassination and, once the deed is done, we could roam the streets safely (other than the occasional thief in the alley).
I’d also like to add that there are some very interesting locations in Multiplayer that could be the setting of breathtaking assassinations. Examples of such locations would be, Siena (I can see myself tracking down the target amidst the red smoke and the cheer of the crowd), Castel Gandolfo or Alhambra.
These are just some ideas that could really push the experience to the next level.
Anyway, I really hope that AC5 lets the player explore the interior of most buildings without any cutscene or loading time. This way we could sneak up and kill targets inside their own houses or explore beautiful palaces or cathedrals and find secret tombs or something that adds the feel of mystery along with conspiracy (the assassin twist).

Landruner
12-06-2013, 02:00 AM
And you know Ubisoft screwed up the conception how?

I know Patrice that is all!