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NeoMorph WTH
12-02-2013, 08:09 PM
While AC4 is a really cool looking marvel you have to admit that the AI is a bit... DUMB... yet at other times you can whistle from one part and then move to another and they only start to come towards you when the AI kicks in... and then they move to where you are now. Laggy is an understatement.

And what about those fields you couldn't hide squat in... I mean... WHY NOT MAKE THEM MORE DENSE. Losing soldier in those fields is crazy and every time I do it I feel like I am cheating somehow.

Don't get me wrong... I love the game (except for the footchase sequences where a fit young man can't even catch up with an old man... ffs - are the old dodderers on ancient viagra or something), but just think the AI seems a little simplified. I just hope that the new Watch Dogs AI isn't as dumb.

Gi1t
12-02-2013, 08:14 PM
Answer=Yes. XD

AI in AC has been moronic since day 1.

shobhit7777777
12-02-2013, 08:24 PM
The AI is dumb....always has been. Its kinda become a core pillar.

AssassinHMS
12-02-2013, 08:30 PM
Agreed, but hey, if enemy AI was smarter, then stealth would require more thought and planning, which is great. But then it would be nothing but a waste of time, since you can kill them all without breaking a sweat. Point is, you need a dumb enemy AI to place stealth closer to combat’s difficulty level, or else there is no real point in using stealth (it’s like a bear hiding from ants…it’s pathetic). But you’re right. I think AC5 needs to have smarter enemy AI, not telepathic as AC3 but not mentally challenged as in AC4. Problem is, that will require more from the player, while I suspect combat never will, which, ultimately, renders stealth pointless.

It's the choice between feeling "badass" (somehow) and having both an immersive and intense experience. Tough choice I guess...

Gi1t
12-02-2013, 08:41 PM
Agreed, but hey, if enemy AI was smarter, then stealth would require more thought and planning, which is great. But then it would be nothing but a waste of time, since you can kill them all without breaking a sweat. Point is, you need a dumb enemy AI to place stealth closer to combat’s difficulty level, or else there is no real point in using stealth (it’s like a bear hiding from ants…it’s pathetic). But you’re right. I think AC5 needs to have smarter enemy AI, not telepathic as AC3 but not mentally challenged as in AC4. Problem is, that will require more from the player, while I suspect combat never will, which, ultimately, renders stealth pointless.

It's the choice between feeling "badass" (somehow) and having both an immersive and intense experience. Tough choice I guess...

True, even in an intense experience, sometimes pat of creating a great AI system is programming good artificial stupidity that the player can take advantage of. And sometimes an AI needs to become smarter and more curious in order to be fooled.

Always one of the most frustrating things when an AI proves to be problematic to deal with not because it's smart, but because it's too stupid to react to something clever you're doing. I hope the AC development team never mistakes that inability to react to something for challenging AI.

AssassinHMS
12-02-2013, 08:55 PM
True, even in an intense experience, sometimes pat of creating a great AI system is programming good artificial stupidity that the player can take advantage of. And sometimes an AI needs to become smarter and more curious in order to be fooled.

Always one of the most frustrating things when an AI proves to be problematic to deal with not because it's smart, but because it's too stupid to react to something clever you're doing. I hope the AC development team never mistakes that inability to react to something for challenging AI.

Yep, without a real and more challenging combat system, stealth will be pointless unless it is as devoid of challenge or, in other words, filled with "dumb" enemies and stripped off of any fun or tension. Anyway, it is bad for the game and for the experience.

Could you give me an example of a situation where the enemy AI isn’t smart enough to react to a player’s clever strategy, just so that I can have a better idea?

Gi1t
12-02-2013, 09:12 PM
Yep, without a real and more challenging combat system, stealth will be pointless unless it is as devoid of challenge or, in other words, filled with "dumb" enemies and stripped off of any fun or tension. Anyway, it is bad for the game and for the experience.

Could you give me an example of a situation where the enemy AI isn’t smart enough to react to a player’s clever strategy, just so that I can have a better idea?

For example, in a situation where something you do makes a really loud noise that SHOULD make a great distraction, but the guard's AI isn't programmed to do anything but stand there and detect you if you walk into their line of sight. Something like that. The guard's AI is actually more of a problem because of something that's lacking from their programming rather than being a problem because of something they do actively. (I'm not specifically mentioning an AC game here, I'm just talking along those lines.) :)

lothario-da-be
12-02-2013, 09:44 PM
Sometimes i wonder of ac would still feel like ac if the ai is good and when the combat/stealth will be a challenge.

Landruner
12-02-2013, 10:03 PM
Like mentioned in some previous other threads - They just needed to make 3 to 4 different AI for each situation, and it should have resolved the problem.

Examples for AC4 BF:

AI1: - Free Roaming: Casual AI like it is in the AC's games with the different archetypes for the Foes (Examples AC4's Collecting stuff, exploring cities, messing around)
AI2: - Blending AI reserved for the missions that require blending stealth (Examples the AC's tailing, stealing, infiltration, assassination)
AI3: - Restricted Area that requires environmental stealth skills ( Example the AC4's Plantations)
AI4: - Reserved for the foes on the ships ( AI for Special fighters, Level is variant with difficulty of the ship)

That is simple and it will have make everybody happy, I am sure

AssassinHMS
12-02-2013, 10:11 PM
For example, in a situation where something you do makes a really loud noise that SHOULD make a great distraction, but the guard's AI isn't programmed to do anything but stand there and detect you if you walk into their line of sight. Something like that. The guard's AI is actually more of a problem because of something that's lacking from their programming rather than being a problem because of something they do actively. (I'm not specifically mentioning an AC game here, I'm just talking along those lines.) :)

Ah, ok. I understand now. That is my point as well. That is what makes stealth interesting while also encouraging the player to think and to plan his actions. The more creativity you put into it, the easier your job as an assassin will be. Of course this only makes sense if combat is more challenging and a bit harder as well (although difficulty levels could take care of the later)
In the end, Assassin’s Creed can only have strong core mechanics if all of them are deep and challenging. This means that, while combat remains this bad and easy, both stealth and navigation can’t really improve and AC, will remain what it is now, some other game with poor and extremely underdeveloped core mechanics plus Assassins and Templars.





Sometimes i wonder of ac would still feel like ac if the ai is good and when the combat/stealth will be a challenge.
Believe me, it would feel a lot more like AC. After all, this is what was initially planned.
Imagine, stealth with purpose, where you feel the tension and the excitement. Every time you get detected, your blood pumps, and you can either face your enemies (real enemies, not ants) or run for your life, climb walls, roll and slide with an interactive and improved navigation system. Note that, challenge doesn’t mean difficulty. While fighting many enemies at once is a lot more challenging and discouraged, you can always use navigation, in the form of escape (after all what is escape for if you’re fighting ants? Nothing but a wasted mechanic so, no wonder it became so underdeveloped and simplistic). Escaping becomes breathtaking and combat becomes intense and thrilling. You can still feel “badass” when fighting less opponentsat once (up to 4), but more than that and you have to think like an assassin and put your skills up to the test.
The original purpose of AC is to put the player in the shoes of an assassin while making a fun, thrilling and exciting experience. Ubisoft turned it into a casual experience that doesn’t require your brain or your skills and that doesn’t offer much else than cheap violence and action sequences plus Hollywood explosions.
This is the original AC so yeah, this would definitely feel like AC.

MIA SILENT
12-02-2013, 10:34 PM
The AI is dumb....always has been. Its kinda become a core pillar.

I see what you did there. And I like it.

Landruner
12-02-2013, 11:00 PM
For example, in a situation where something you do makes a really loud noise that SHOULD make a great distraction, but the guard's AI isn't programmed to do anything but stand there and detect you if you walk into their line of sight. Something like that. The guard's AI is actually more of a problem because of something that's lacking from their programming rather than being a problem because of something they do actively. (I'm not specifically mentioning an AC game here, I'm just talking along those lines.) :)

I jump in the conversation you have with HMS - Yep, I see your point there - The AI was dumb, but it is actually a handicap since some where standing there doing nothing even if you whistled at them. I don't know how many times it happen to me that even from a hay stack in a chart I could get the dude a few meter from to get closer and investigate that damned pile of hay where I was hidden. I previously wrote and I think you are thinking the same like HMS does - Some different type of AI for each situation will have been a better use and make a lot of people happy.

I repost the example I previously posted

Examples for AC4 BF:

AI1: - Free Roaming: Casual AI like it is in the AC's games with the different archetypes for the Foes (Examples AC4's Collecting stuff, exploring cities, messing around)

AI2: - Blending AI reserved for the missions that require blending stealth (Examples the AC's tailing, stealing, infiltration, assassination)
Guards and foes are more attentive to the way you behave and you have to keep a low profile (Like AC1 concept, or the Hitman series)

AI3: - Restricted Area that requires environmental stealth skills ( Example the AC4's Plantations)
Guards are foes are really smart, and can detect you based on the noise you make, can detect if one guard is gone missing, they investigate after suspicion and won't quit until they find you
Example (Thief, dishonored series)

AI4: - Reserved for the foes on the ships ( AI for Special fighters, Level is variant with difficulty of the ship)


To the OP of this thread - AI = All Idiot?

No, in video game industry AI stands for Artificial Idiot(s) ;)

NeoMorph WTH
12-03-2013, 01:57 PM
Why they don't use the AI from Far Cry 3 which was loads better is beyond me. That game rocked and yet even though quite good, could be fooled.

It's how in AC4 you can stand up right next to an enemy and then duck down in an almost bare patch of plants where you couldn't hide a mouse that the enemy scratches your head and you go "WHAT... I AM RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU"

*stabbystabbykillthedumbguardtoincreasethehumanint elligenceaverage*

EDIT: This forum randomly inserts spaces and line feeds. Whoever deals with the forum must be one of the AC guards.

Landruner
12-03-2013, 02:47 PM
Why they don't use the AI from Far Cry 3 which was loads better is beyond me. That game rocked and yet even though quite good, could be fooled.

It's how in AC4 you can stand up right next to an enemy and then duck down in an almost bare patch of plants where you couldn't hide a mouse that the enemy scratches your head and you go "WHAT... I AM RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU"

*stabbystabbykillthedumbguardtoincreasethehumanint elligenceaverage*

EDIT: This forum randomly inserts spaces and line feeds. Whoever deals with the forum must be one of the AC guards.

I enjoyed Far Cry 3 for its AI (if you happened to be seen by the foes it is your damned own fault, not because the AI is dumb and they won't quit to come after you) and I was hoping since they were using some stealth strategic points from Far Cry 3 that the AI and corresponding stealth was going to follow for AC4 (At least they said that AI was going to be the best of the AC franchise). I got mislaid in my perspectives and completely forgot to convert them into an AC's game translator with its AC's parameters and hype.

PedroAntonio2
12-03-2013, 02:55 PM
I will run naked in the streets the day Ubisoft makes AC AI smart like Splinter Cell. I mean....I played MGS Collection months ago and even MGS 2 that released milleniuns agos has a much better AI than ACIV. I was playing ACIV and there were two guards talking about how cruel was their commander, I killed the guy behind the other guard and he just kept talking about something, without his dead friend replying his questions. I remember in MGS 2 the guards talking about something, you took down one of them, the other guard would notice that his friend isn't replying his questions, then he would start looking for his friend.

PedroAntonio2
12-03-2013, 02:59 PM
Far Cry 3 AI is the best. If you shoot someone with a Sniper, the other enemies will go in your direction trying to find the shooter. I love this little details....AC AI is ridiculous, you kill one of the guards, the other enemies will investigate the body, then they will go away like '' OK, who cares...our friend just died, let's go back.'' and in ACIV you run behind them like crazy and they don't even hear you! I know they did this to improve Stealth, but....damn, I heard that FC3 developsers were helping Montreal in ACIV, but they should've used FC3 AI.

Landruner
12-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Far Cry 3 AI is the best. If you shoot someone with a Sniper, the other enemies will go in your direction trying to find the shooter. I love this little details....AC AI is ridiculous, you kill one of the guards, the other enemies will investigate the body, then they will go away like '' OK, who cares...our friend just died, let's go back.'' and in ACIV you run behind them like crazy and they don't even hear you! I know they did this to improve Stealth, but....damn, I heard that FC3 developsers were helping Montreal in ACIV, but they should've used FC3 AI.

Ah!!!... Far Cry 3, remember when you are in the jungle and the territory is still occupied, just using you gun for hunting was attracting the patrols around and they were starting investigating... While approaching a camp if a sniper was seeing you, guards were sent on your direction and looking for you. I never experienced a survival mod with the need and fear to stay alive in any other game like I could experienced with Far Cry 3.

SixKeys
12-03-2013, 09:58 PM
My funniest experience with AC4's AI so far was when I accidentally killed someone pretty much in plain sight of another guard during a plantation raid. I dived into a bush and got ready to take him down as he approached. Of course, as soon as I dove out of sight, he was all "durrr, where did he go??". I whistled to get him to take a few steps closer. He looked around, looked straight at the bush he just saw me disappear into, and went: "I've got better things to do with my time", then turned to leave. I whistled again, he looked around again, took one step closer to the bush, then said the same thing. I guess he just really didn't care about the guy I just murdered. :p

Shahkulu101
12-03-2013, 10:06 PM
How is it so dumb? Isn't it 2013 - it's really quite shocking when you think about it.

persona523
12-03-2013, 10:29 PM
AGREE AI is quite dump

They can easily drown or die in the water just push them

here is some of my gameplay :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RgltcZumT0