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delta762
02-10-2004, 08:57 AM
is there a way to turn on labels like in lomac to spot the enemy better? the camo sure does work good in this game and i cant ever find the enemy until they are shooting at me! any ideas?

delta762
02-10-2004, 08:57 AM
is there a way to turn on labels like in lomac to spot the enemy better? the camo sure does work good in this game and i cant ever find the enemy until they are shooting at me! any ideas?

02-10-2004, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by delta762:
is there a way to turn on labels like in lomac to spot the enemy better? the camo sure does work good in this game and i cant ever find the enemy until they are shooting at me! any ideas?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Icons? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ELEM
02-10-2004, 09:00 AM
Do you mean icons? Select "Icons On" in Difficulty settings. Never use them myself.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-10-2004, 09:04 AM
Online, get a wingman with better vision than yours and good SA then just fly formation until you have contact.

Hell, it works for me!



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 09:25 AM
Practice spotting the enemy:
Donā't use externals.
Donā't use Padlock.
Donā't use icons.
Just get better at spotting the dots.
Crutches impede your learning process.

Just my 2c.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

Lunix
02-10-2004, 09:33 AM
Speaking of spotting the enemy is it just me or are Yak 3's and I16's invisible against the ground?

http://members.shaw.ca/corn/il2sig2.jpg

[Gypsy]
02-10-2004, 09:50 AM
The more I fly FR the more I can see those "dots", "silver flashes", etc, before they see me... besides, it's a hell-of-a-wakeup to get blasted by someone you never saw (or heard now).. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

"Gypsy"

310th FS/380th BG Opps Officer
CO 310th FS Bravo Wing

http://imageshack.us/files/Gypsy%20Sig3.jpg

repco
02-10-2004, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lunix:
Speaking of spotting the enemy is it just me or are Yak 3's and I16's invisible against the ground?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not just you Lunix. I used to play offline without icons, but I gave up after a bit - the AI have superb eyesight: they can differentiate friend/foe from several km & I don't think they can be surprised, unless they've broken from the fight and are heading home (at cruise speed - lol!). But I really gave up when I encountered the AI Yaks flying wide circles at ground level as a form of defence. Too slow to catch them I needed to climb, then cut them off, but as soon as I got off the tail of one I could no longer see it. I suppose I could learn padlock, but I've never liked the fact that my head follows the green triangle. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

p1ngu666
02-10-2004, 12:45 PM
yeah, at certain distances some planes will disapear. happened with p51 at a cetain angle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.pingu666.etglobalsolution.co.uk/sig/mysig3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 12:52 PM
Gemini, you are correct in principle about icons, but you're ignoring some realities about our monitors and in the FB graphics engine.

One does NOT see what a trained WWII pilot would see in the sim...especially if you're using resolutions higher than 800x600.

Not just with dots, but also the lowest detail level of plane shapes....they routinely and seemingly randomly appear and disappear, often while you're actively looking straight at them.

Icons, to my way of viewing are a necessary evil for producing the correct *simulation* of visual acuity. No icons is simply "full difficulty", not "full realism"; it is MORE difficult than it ought to be to see.

faustnik
02-10-2004, 01:13 PM
Icons are more important for teamwork than they are for IDing enemy a/c. It's very hard to stay with your wingie or schwarm without at least limited friendly icons.

The much maligned padlock is also useful for tracking contacts as they melt into the surface terrain.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Gemini, you are correct in principle about icons, but you're ignoring some realities about our monitors and in the FB graphics engine.

One does NOT see what a trained WWII pilot would see in the sim...especially if you're using resolutions higher than 800x600.

Not just with dots, but also the lowest detail level of plane shapes....they routinely and seemingly randomly appear and disappear, often while you're actively looking straight at them.

Icons, to my way of viewing are a necessary evil for producing the correct *simulation* of visual acuity. No icons is simply "full difficulty", not "full realism"; it is MORE difficult than it ought to be to see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Stiglr Iā'm not ignoring any realities. Donā't read into what I said. I was speaking of practice not playing. Donā't get on the Full Realism debate wagon just yet. I will debate it with you if you want but in this case thereā's no need.

If you practice spotting those ā˜dotsā' youā'll get better at seeing them even at a glance of the hat switch. Btw, with my 1280x960 resolution on my 17ā" monitor those ā˜dotsā' still disappear and reappear.

I jumped in the P-39 in the original IL-2 (probably the hardest plane to fly back then) and practiced on FR difficulty then I was free to join any server with any difficulty. I donā't practice offline anymore and I basically stick to my server with my server settings * FR + PL (to even out systems) + friendly icons only * now but setting the tone early was important (for me anyways). I think itā's better to learn in the most difficult manner otherwise itā's always an uphill climb. Just remember Iā'm here to help with advice (which is more than I can say for some) not here to brag or criticize others way of playing (although I do kid sometimes ā"Wonder Women viewā").

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

faustnik
02-10-2004, 01:21 PM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/wonderwomanplane.jpg

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

LilHorse
02-10-2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Gemini, you are correct in principle about icons, but you're ignoring some realities about our monitors and in the FB graphics engine.

One does NOT see what a trained WWII pilot would see in the sim...especially if you're using resolutions higher than 800x600.

Not just with dots, but also the lowest detail level of plane shapes....they routinely and seemingly randomly appear and disappear, often while you're actively looking straight at them.

Icons, to my way of viewing are a necessary evil for producing the correct *simulation* of visual acuity. No icons is simply "full difficulty", not "full realism"; it is MORE difficult than it ought to be to see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stiglr! I'm surprised at you! Never thought I'd see you write that.

Personally, I don't like icons or PL or externals or cockpit off. Maybe it is a little harder to spot and ID planes but I rarely have a problem doing it. You learn little tricks to ID. And also when you need to you can use the gunsight view, which I don't feel is an undue advantage since it has already been determined here that that view co-responds to a 1:1 view as per monitor/cockpit. You just can't look around very well in that mode. So then you just switch back to a wider view once you have ID'd the planes.

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 01:31 PM
I can see the 'dots' better in extended view for some reason. Which works well because I like to stay in extended view.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/wonderwomanplane.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Watch out, some people in this forum are touchy.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

JG14_Josf
02-10-2004, 01:42 PM
Target aquisition and tracking are skills that real pilots must learn.

It may be coincidence that IL2/FB requires the players to learn these skills too.

Then again maybe more of Oleg's genius is showing in this regard.

Then again the players can also just turn on icons, padlock and all the other computer aids that make such realistic skill development mute.

Fortunately; Icons, padlock, no cockpit, etc. can be turned off for those of us who find the competition to be desirable.

JR_Greenhorn
02-10-2004, 01:48 PM
For a player new to Il-2, I think turning the icons on is helpful in gaining a "feel" for distances. When I first started flying in FB, I used icons to learn how close I had to get to enemy planes to be within a 500 meter shooting distance. However, I found leaving the icons on encourages following aircraft around until the distance is closed. After getting used to shooting distances, turing the icons of encouraged learning proper attack tactics and techniques.

Disclaimer: The preceding post is my two cents, however I am an offline player and therefore not entitled to an opinion.

LilHorse
02-10-2004, 01:56 PM
Also, having enemy icons enabled (online anyway) removes the element of surprise, which is a realistic feature of not having them. And that's what I strive for. If I can help it I don't want you to see me coming. I wanna dive in, blast you and zoom away.

For those of you who have seen the statistic too many times, avert your eyes. For those who haven't, about 80% of air-to-air kills in WWII happened by bounce. Most pilots were shot up before they even knew what had happened to them

Surprise: it's unfair, it's mean and it's realistic. And that's the way I like it.

faustnik
02-10-2004, 01:58 PM
A good training tool for me was to use dark skins on enemy a/c with a winter map. After doing this for while, it really seemed to help me spot and track enemy a/c. Must be something in learning and predicting how an a/c moves.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 02:03 PM
I canā't stand enemy icons on. Itā's like a giant neon sign that reads ā"Here I am, look at me!!ā". Itā's far removed from realism IMO. I like a good chase against an enemy with no icons.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

JR_Greenhorn
02-10-2004, 02:05 PM
I think the discussion in this thread is lost between those that are thinking of training aids (for good habits or for bad), and those who are thinking of finding settings to fly with permamently.

I feel there is a difference between the two.
Does anyone else?

BaldieJr
02-10-2004, 02:43 PM
After walking a tight-rope, a 4-inch board is cake.

Can ya smell what I'm cookin? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 02:45 PM
Lil Horse wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Stiglr! I'm surprised at you! Never thought I'd see you write (an endorsement of icons).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've written that many times. I'm not a "full difficulty, hairshirt, all switches up" guy. To me, "Full difficulty" is about as poor a simulation as "Full arcade", just for vastly different reasons. I go for "Full Realism Simulation" and, given the graphics/monitor challenges, that includes a well-crafted icon system. Having planes disappear into tree canopies at 150 meters, or banking planes with "blessed camoflage" turn into invisible single-pixel lines while you watch is even more unrealistic than a small hint of red or blue simulating the little hints of metal that would allow real eyes to track the object in real life.

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 02:50 PM
About what Gemini says about "practicing" seeing dots:

That's a different issue than whether the dot *can be seen* in the first place.

Dots don't "disappear and reappear" while you look right at them (provided a cloud or fog or other obstruction doesn't enter the picture). Even if you take you eye off a con for a second, and then look back for it, it will JUMP RIGHT OUT at you, because your brain is telegraphing where it is likely to be. I have practiced this looking from real aircraft and cannot be convinced it isn't true. But this won't happen in the sim if the dot is "there one second and gone the next", due to some graphics anamoly.

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
After walking a tight-rope, a 4-inch board is cake.

Can ya smell what I'm cookin? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Dat's what I'm cooking too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Lil Horse wrote:
I've written that many times. I'm not a "full difficulty, hairshirt, all switches up" guy. To me, "Full difficulty" is about as poor a simulation as "Full arcade", just for vastly different reasons. I go for "Full Realism Simulation" and, given the graphics/monitor challenges, that includes a well-crafted icon system. Having planes disappear into tree canopies at 150 meters, or banking planes with "blessed camoflage" turn into invisible single-pixel lines while you watch is even more unrealistic than a small hint of red or blue simulating the little hints of metal that would allow real eyes to track the object in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's where Internal Padlock comes into play. You can lock your virtual pilots eyes on anything that he can see from the cockpit. No need for icons with that IMO.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

drapis
02-10-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
Stiglr! I'm surprised at you! Never thought I'd see you write that.

Personally, I don't like icons or PL or externals or cockpit off. Maybe it is a little harder to spot and ID planes but I rarely have a problem doing it. You learn little tricks to ID. And also when you need to you can use the gunsight view, which I don't feel is an undue advantage since it has already been determined here that that view co-responds to a 1:1 view as per monitor/cockpit. You just can't look around very well in that mode. So then you just switch back to a wider view once you have ID'd the planes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

don't forget that some people may have a little less powerfull hardware than you ...

icons on are necessary evil for me. without them I'm not able to ID planes at 300+ metres, which is not what I'd call realism...

bad luck for me, for sure, but there are still ppl playing with similar configurations...

Killing for peace is like whoring for virginity.

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 04:08 PM
Gemini wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's where Internal Padlock comes into play. You can lock your virtual pilots eyes on anything that he can see from the cockpit. No need for icons with that IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't work if your brain is telling you "the con should be about *there*" and your eyes are telling you "Where? I don't see nuthin'".

As for the software padlock, it should be a choice as to whether you decide to track it yourself or you let the software do it for you. Furthermore, this also doesn't account for other bogies in your view that can or can't be seen because of graphics problems.

I don't need software help to keep a bogie in view once I acquire it. Where I need help is when the sim stops displaying a dot (or just doesn't display it), when it has not actually been obscured.

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 04:12 PM
LilHorse wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And also when you need to you can use the gunsight view, which I don't feel is an undue advantage since it has already been determined here that that view co-responds to a 1:1 view as per monitor/cockpit<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is patently FALSE. When you zoom in, you are LESS likely to see a dot than you are in zoomed OUT view. And the further away the "dot" is when you invoke a closer view, the more likely this is to happen. This is one of the most blatant failings of the graphics system.

Try it yourself. Cruise around in no icon in the most zoomed out, 90 degree view. When you spot a dot way off, zoom in to Normal View. The dot will likely disappear. Zoom back out: there it is again (hopefully). Same thing happens if you're in Normal and want to check out a dot in Gunsight view. Pay more attention and the dot is HARDER to see (if it's visible at all). Ridiculous.

Your explanation for why the gunsight view is valid to use as a "fixated view" is spot on, though.

BpGemini
02-10-2004, 04:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Gemini wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's where Internal Padlock comes into play. You can lock your virtual pilots eyes on anything that he can see from the cockpit. No need for icons with that IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't work if your brain is telling you "the con should be about *there*" and your eyes are telling you "Where? I don't see nuthin'".

As for the software padlock, it should be a choice as to whether you decide to track it yourself or you let the software do it for you. Furthermore, this also doesn't account for other bogies in your view that can or can't be seen because of graphics problems.

I don't need software help to keep a bogie in view once I acquire it. Where I need help is when the sim stops displaying a dot (or just doesn't display it), when it has not actually been obscured.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You can toggle between bogies. As far as dots are concerned, they come and go sometimes but once you get a glimpse you have a general direction to head or keep an eye out for and once he's close enough to shoot you he shouldn't be a dot anymore. Even well before that and his general direction is know and PL is in range.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

Xnomad
02-10-2004, 04:42 PM
I stopped using Icons when I got Track IR. I was good with the hat switch but it was too easy to lose a pixel whilst tracking in a 109 cockpit with my thumb. I upgraded to a 19" monitor with a really sweet dot pitch which did help a little but it's only really better for IDing planes and not spotting the pixel.

Still the element of surprise is too important for me to have an icon showing me where the bogie is.

I prefer servers like Virtual Pilots' Finnish Gulf server where there is a lot of water, there you can pick out the dots quite easily (except sometimes I lose it in the piss stain of the later 109 canopies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif)

In real life planes could camoflauge themselves with the ground and lose their pursuers I've read this in quite a few accounts. However it happens a bit too easily in FB. Rata's Yaks and P-39s are a real biatch to find amongst the green sometimes.

Usually I'll spot the bombers first and that annoys me as I have a no bomber policy because the AI gunners have a thing for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif but that's another story.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 04:51 PM
Xnomad wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Still the element of surprise is too important for me to have an icon showing me where the bogie is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is another false assumption. The presence of icons does not in and of itself ruin the element of surprise. I can and do bounce cons unaware in all environments. People who don't check 6 can always be bounced.

If you're talking the standard, 10km, full length icons, I agree with you. But a short distance, 3-character "Yak" "109" or similar icon with no range counter doesn't make that much difference to the unware or the person with lazy search habits. It does however, make much more of a difference close in, when planeshapes (not dots, mind you, but plane SHAPES) disappear into the graphics engine.

Ketalar
02-10-2004, 05:05 PM
I scan the skies for tracers. They're visible from far away, and by looking at the color and grouping you can figure out which side is firing. A good way to find a fight, then just maneuver into position. (I usually get shot down just as I get "in position", but that's another issue...)

BfHeFwMe
02-10-2004, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
About what Gemini says about "practicing" seeing dots:

That's a different issue than whether the dot *can be seen* in the first place.

Dots don't "disappear and reappear" while you look right at them (provided a cloud or fog or other obstruction doesn't enter the picture). Even if you take you eye off a con for a second, and then look back for it, it will JUMP RIGHT OUT at you, because your brain is telegraphing where it is likely to be. I have practiced this looking from real aircraft and cannot be convinced it isn't true. But this won't happen in the sim if the dot is "there one second and gone the next", due to some graphics anamoly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, pretty easy spotting those civil aircraft all painted up bright and white with the anti collision lights flashing and nav lights on, slowing down for the patterns, isn't it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

EPP-Gibbs
02-10-2004, 05:27 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this...but, clean your monitor screen! Dots made of dust, fluff, sneezings, coffee, etc, can prevent you from spotting the real contacts.

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

XyZspineZyX
02-10-2004, 05:36 PM
Another good point: how likely are you to notice tracer streams, STARE at the area, and then see nothing? The human eye is really good at picking objects out of backgrounds when they have a visual cue to home in on.

As for planes with collision lights and all...well, I can recall picking a white plane out over the grey/whitish clutter of Los Angeles from several thousand feet above, so go figure. And at the range I saw it at, in daylight, the lights made no difference whatsoever.