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GH_Klingstroem
08-25-2004, 04:51 AM
Ok I cant back this up now so actually I shouldny say anything my self. Im a pure Lw fighter so dont know much about the western planes... still I would like people to post, in short words, what they still think should be fixed, maybe as a bug. Or maybe just asking someone in here who might know better... I have four things:

1. When getting a fuel leak in the Fw190, u will lose 2 liters a second, or 1.98... thats far more than any other plane! Any good reason for this?!

2. Spitfires high altitude performance is too good! too fast high up after what I have heard from lots of sources...

3. P51 turns too good at low alt.. seems like it turns far to good if you look at its laminar flow wing and its high wingloading. And maybe it should be a bit faster as well. Once again, ur opinions?!

4. Fw190-a8 is much more thirsty than then ohther 190s!! Maybe she is the only correct one or the only wrong one... either way, it should be fixed...

again. No point of teling me I am whining. Im not saying that I am right. If someone in here can prove me wrong then everthing is as it should... But I think im not too far off here... Cheers all!

GH_Klingstroem
08-25-2004, 04:51 AM
Ok I cant back this up now so actually I shouldny say anything my self. Im a pure Lw fighter so dont know much about the western planes... still I would like people to post, in short words, what they still think should be fixed, maybe as a bug. Or maybe just asking someone in here who might know better... I have four things:

1. When getting a fuel leak in the Fw190, u will lose 2 liters a second, or 1.98... thats far more than any other plane! Any good reason for this?!

2. Spitfires high altitude performance is too good! too fast high up after what I have heard from lots of sources...

3. P51 turns too good at low alt.. seems like it turns far to good if you look at its laminar flow wing and its high wingloading. And maybe it should be a bit faster as well. Once again, ur opinions?!

4. Fw190-a8 is much more thirsty than then ohther 190s!! Maybe she is the only correct one or the only wrong one... either way, it should be fixed...

again. No point of teling me I am whining. Im not saying that I am right. If someone in here can prove me wrong then everthing is as it should... But I think im not too far off here... Cheers all!

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-25-2004, 05:16 AM
hmmm

must try harder.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

Jasko76
08-25-2004, 05:27 AM
I can agree with you on point 4! She IS much thirstier than other Fw 190s. When flying a mission in A8 one must always remember to bring more fuel than with other As.

Regards,

Jasko
http://www.yumodel.co.yu/history_of_yugoslav_aviation/slike/bf109g6.jpg

I rulez - You not!

Zayets
08-25-2004, 05:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Im a pure Lw fighter so dont know much about the western planes... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And how FW190,Bf109,He111,Bf110 and few others are not Western planes?Just a remark,not like it is useful in this context.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

F19_Ob
08-25-2004, 05:30 AM
Its very difficult to have exactly correct performance in FB.
Many WW2pilots and real testpilots generally mean that there is a difference between factory specs and testcondition specs and the actual performance during combatconditions.
So its unlikely we will have a definitive answer to the performance issue.


2. I have heard the opposit aswell about the spitfire, and some historians nowaday try to point at the performance was similar with some marks of spits and 109's at certain altitudes and speeds. I have seen this opinion also from both german and brittish pilots, although I cant produce any source here.
------------------------------

3 P51 can turn well with a good pilot. but I have outturned p51's in the 109 aswell.
The planes have similar 'initial' turn, although the 109 is better in slow speeds, especially scissoring. The p51 can follow some moves slow on the deck, but the 109 will get the upper hand as the battle proggresses.
109's also have better accelleration and this along with its good slow-speed handling makes it 'better' in 'prolonged' dogfights with p51d.

In all cases where somewhat equal planes try to outturn one-another, the initially best positioned will likely win. That would be the case also if two 109's would battle eachother.
What I mean is, that the one that have, even slightest angle on his opponent, and a favorable speed in that moment, have a good chanse to outturn his foe. even if the foe is slightly better in turn.
So in general one can say that 'initially' they are equal, but in prolonged slowspeed dogfights the 109 likely gets the upper hand.
( but note that there are so many situations wich may alter the outcome)


The general idea that I have understood so far, is that many planes were closer in performance to their counterparts than is seen in the statistics. = performance during combatconditions.

a few thoughts.

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Wed August 25 2004 at 04:55 AM.]

GH_Klingstroem
08-25-2004, 06:16 AM
zayet, most people in here exept you would understand that western means american\british planes...

Zayets
08-25-2004, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
zayet, most people in here exept you would understand that western means american\british planes...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-25-2004, 06:48 AM
LMAO Zayets http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif That sure put you in your place didnt it Mwuahahahahah

Oh and FYI Klingon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif Germany is frequently considered to be part of Western Civilisation !!

Oh Oh I just thought maybe he means COWBOY planes ?!?

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

Zayets
08-25-2004, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
LMAO Zayets http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif That sure put you in your place didnt it Mwuahahahahah

Oh and FYI Klingon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif Germany is frequently considered to be part of Western Civilisation !!

Oh Oh I just thought maybe he means COWBOY planes ?!?

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes,tail between my legs an a shameful retreat for me like a dog kicked in the balls.

Zayets out

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/Zayets/sigP47.jpg

Slush69
08-25-2004, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Ok I cant back this up

(...)

If someone in here can prove me wrong then everthing is as it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know: it's actually the other way around. If you think something's wrong, it's up to you to prove it.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

panther3485
08-25-2004, 08:13 AM
Hi there!

When I read the words 'western planes', I assumed that GH_Klingstroem meant planes used by the WESTERN ALLIED NATIONS OF WW2 (primarily, Britain and the USA).

The only other footnote I can think of to add, at present, is that Spitfires built with mid and late production Merlins could have their engines optimized for low altitude, mid altitude or high altitude. This could give rise to considerable differences in the figures for high altitude performance. Not wanting to confuse the issue, but it is an important variable when considering the many marks and sub-types.

Best regards to all,
panther3485

arcadeace
08-25-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
You know: it's actually the other way around. If you think something's wrong, it's up to you to prove it.

cheers/slush
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/sonar.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-25-2004, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panther3485:
When I read the words 'western planes', I assumed that GH_Klingstroem meant planes used by the WESTERN ALLIED NATIONS OF WW2 (primarily, Britain and the USA).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well maybe he should have said that then in the first place hmmmm?

also as others have pointed out its never a good idea to start a post with

'Ok I cant back this up now so actually I shouldny say anything my self.'

and then proceed to spew on about what you think is wrong with the various flight models! Perhaps he should have followed his own advice?

This was a flagrant luft whine executed in a rather poor and un-profesional manner.

My comment 'could do better' stands.

Also there are already far more eminantly qualified individuals doing a much better job of rubbishing Olegs work and I suggest the origional poster leaves them to it, or adds his thoughts to one of their inumerable threads !

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

F19_Ob
08-25-2004, 08:57 AM
hmmm...It can sometimes be very difficult to put the words in a manner that would please the board, especially if english isnt ones main language.
It seems clear to me anyway that mr Klingstroem is asking questions and for our opinions. ( he got opinionshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif)....Anyway, It should be ok to ask for that without data to back everything up.
However I'll add that I'm in favor of collecting data and qustion them.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

panther3485
08-25-2004, 09:10 AM
Hiya tHeBaLrOgRoCkS,

Thanks for your input and for 'setting me straight' about the quality of GH_Klingstroem's post. Actually, I didn't intend to imply anything good or bad about what he said, or the intent behind his post and you may well be right about that. I haven't read many of his posts before so I don't yet have much of a feel for 'where he's coming from' or what sort of guy he is.

In fact, if his post and the intentions behind it really WERE as bad as you say, then he can be taken down on those points alone. There's no need to pick on him because he's perhaps not expressing himself very well.

Once again, I'm not saying his post was good or bad, or yours was good or bad... just my view of what he meant when he said 'western planes'.

Not everyone is equally good at expressing themselves in written English (in fact for some participants, it's not their native language) so I guess I tend to err on the side of generosity when I read and interpret someone else's post, to see if I can work out what they are really trying to say.

Of course, in time when I've got to read a lot of posts from any particular person, I gradually manage to work out what really 'makes him tick'. In a few cases, I come to the conclusion that an individual no longer deserves generous interpretation or 'the benefit of the doubt' - the conclusion you appear to have come to with GH_Klingstroem.

I don't remember ever having dealt with him before so please, I hope you will forgive my apparent naievety!

Best regards and enjoy your simming/gaming,
panther3485

x6BL_Brando
08-25-2004, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also there are already far more eminantly qualified individuals doing a much better job of rubbishing Olegs work and I suggest the origional poster leaves them to it, or adds his thoughts to one of their inumerable threads ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup - though I think interminable might make a better final adjective http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

carguy_
08-25-2004, 09:22 AM
1 and 2 I think the same.

3.Never seen any data stating that clearly.I am very surprised when being outturned in a Me109 by a Mustang.Looks like I got used to 2.01.

4.A8 and A9 are ver hard planes to fly,not even by bit resembling pilot accounts but pilot accounts are the only that state that FW190 was a superb fighter,BETTER than Me109.I`d rather have Me109F2 than FW190 A8 or 9.Other FW190 I don`t have problems with but I`ve seens ppl shooting up to 4 Spits in one sortie with A8 so I`m little dazzled.

I can add my opinions that are just impressions in camparement to what I heard,read and saw.

1.LW weapons have silly muzzle flash which makes shooting twice harder than for ex.303.

2.LW weapons are serously undermodelled - from silly dispersion of MK108 to silly damage it makes along with MG151/20 and MGFF.

3.LW planes are clearly visible in the background compared to RAF/USAAF planes.At ranges greater than 3km LW is visible as white spots,big blinging shapes while under that range.Allied planes are hard to spot from 500m while below me.

LW planes are vastly crossed by limitations of FBAEP engine - this includes:
- inability to make option to choose which cannons to shoot
- inability to choose loadouts which improve performance and efficiency(bitz rockets)
-inability to model high altitude plane performance correctly(oh yes some allied planes also lose from this)
-inability to model dive performance correctly(like above)
-inability to have an option to remove oil on canopy glass
-inability to model stall characteristics correctly - T&B planes can hold on the propeller far too long.

That`s it for now.I will add something if anything new pops up....That is if this thread won`t get locked hehe.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

h009291
08-25-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

1. When getting a fuel leak in the Fw190, u will lose 2 liters a second, or 1.98... thats far more than any other plane! Any good reason for this?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would kinda depend on how hard you were hit and with what kind of shell. How did you base this fuel leak?

http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg

GH_Klingstroem
08-25-2004, 09:43 AM
Jeeeses you guys are incredible! I started this topic as I had a feeling a few bad things are beeing said about diffrent AC and I wanted to know if more people felt the same problem. The reason why I started it is because I wanted people to post numbers to let me know whats correct and not, because I dont know. Since i dont have any documents about turn radiuses and climbrates etc etc... I feel sorry for people that attack everyone for asking questions. But they probably just dont know better! I guess they have to finish school first!

People like tHeBaLrOgRoCkS have nothing here to do since the only thing they do is to attack people who are unsure about things! Feel sorry for the people around you in real life! Did I offend you in any way?! Yes my english is my second language and I have no problems speaking it. In fact it tends to be better than my first language. which is more than I can say about most people with english as first language who are too lazy to learn other languages. I speak 4 and work as a commercial pilot and am quite tired of beeing attacked when I ask questions in here. I started the post such a defensive way to let people know that I was unsure of some things in the game and hoped people would see that. I hoped ohthers would see that as well... Pls stop the attacking now! Jeeeses

GH_Klingstroem
08-25-2004, 09:46 AM
For h009291.
when I get a fuel leak in the fw190 I start counting the secs till I run out of fuel compared to how much I have left in my tanks... gave me a number of 1.98L per second...

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-25-2004, 09:55 AM
WHOAAAAA now hold on just a dam minit there I aint attacking any ones english french german or otherwise. I am simply implying that this discusion has been held endlessly in previous posts and that a simple application of the SEARCH ENGINE would probably yeald more information and data from previous threads more quickly than lazily just posting a question and expecting an answer. In my experiance (and it seems your own too) these kinda threads just turn into lockable flame wars with in about 8 or nine posts and that is why I made my comments. As to your career ? I could care less m8 I just hope you enjoy it.



Now cork your holes and get back to work

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg