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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 09:18 PM
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89143

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 09:18 PM
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89143

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 09:40 PM
The inaccuracy of some soviet reports is not a new issue.

During the war times, and later on, even many official documents were smoothened up before they were reviewed. Mostly because one man was in charge of promotions and carreer advancements. You had to be in good terms with him, or you might even get shot as being a 'false prophet'... Of course, we are talking about the solitary leaders of the Soviet Union: Stalin and Lenin.

I understand the philosophy behind this type of behaviour, because if the common public was to become aware that grass actually is greener on the other side of the fence, the authorities might even have a full-scale revolution in their hands. Why put the industry develop weapons and ammunition when people need food or agriculture equipment ? Because the interests of the political parties drove the system, not the people.

The idea of communism is good, to some extent. However, the bad thing is that no human can lead a communistic society, mostly because of the negative traits humans have, and the corruptional effect solitary power has on an individual. The best leader for communistic society would be a full-flexible, non-individual artifical intelligence, which is incapable of considering his own advantages or disadvantages.

So, let's make a difference: the communism, developed by Marx and his followers, has little to nothing to do with the Soviet Union. Marx's ideological views run on completely different tracks what did the views of the authorities of the forementioned country.

Of course, we rely here that Oleg and his teams has got their hands on some authentic, non-falsified material, or have been able to seperate fact from fiction. This trait, having an objective view on things, is essential for each individual on this planet, not only game developers or authorities.

-Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 09:46 PM
It seems they've got a big psychological problem on the forum from which you quoted the message.

I find that seeing this type of feelings toward Russia and the former USSR is sad more than a decade after the end of the cold war (how can some still believe the old western propaganda that all russians were brainwashed,that they were fundamentally barbarians with nukes,...? The russians stopped believing the US was gangsters'paradise, a whole nation of KKK members...a long time ago).

For NII-VVS tests, while this particular story may be true, I don't know whether it is or not, their tests have proved more than accurate during WWII (just see how carefully were tested the P-39 or the P-63) and since then.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 09:55 PM
Great replies both of you. Celorfie, that was a nice analysis /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .


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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 10:01 PM
Its still weird how USSR, either despite or because of Stalin, had the most advanced aviation concepts in the 1930s, only to be found flat on back on...22 June. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

But then, who wasn't flat on their back, not prepared to fight a huge WAR (including Germany and Japan). USSR executed the generals who called for 4 engined strategic bomber force. Its like, what if we executed General Doolittle.

Most major Soviet aircraft designers spent several years working in special prisons, working 16 hour days, and watched by guards, including big names like Polikarpov, Tupelov, etc..., Kalinin was shot. You should see the K~7 that he built--almost Zeppelin~esque in size.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 10:15 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- But then, who wasn't flat on their back, not
- prepared to fight a huge WAR (including Germany and
- Japan). USSR executed the generals who called for 4
- engined strategic bomber force. Its like, what if we
- executed General Doolittle.
-

The USSR didn't execute anyone, it was Stalin, Beria, and their NKVD subordinates who did it (there is a difference since most russian military leaders were opposed to that but kept quiet to avoid suffering the same fate).

They considered innovative military thinking as political contestation, and advocating an independent army (I don't know about the generals you refered to but strategic aviation usually goes on par with independent and powerful army) was considered as a threat to Stalin's political power.

General Doolittle wasn't executed, but General Mitchell, who had predicted Pearl Harbor, and called for an independent air arm with long range bombers to support the navy, was judged and expelled from the army for criticizing the military establishment.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 10:18 PM
Yes, correct, Billy Mitchell. I forgothttp://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/kopfpatsch.gif


Thanks!

The two most important Soviet general executed were Tukhachevsky and Alksnis. Tuk was over all military, Alksnis was air force. (I hope I got that right, had to look up the spelling)

Message Edited on 06/19/0309:22PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 11:00 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- The two most important Soviet general executed were
- Tukhachevsky and Alksnis. Tuk was over all military,
- Alksnis was air force. (I hope I got that right, had
- to look up the spelling)
-
Thanks, I knew about Tukhatchevsky but not about the second one.

This man (Tukhatchevsky) was a real military genius (he advocated the massive use of highly mobile armor, the air/ground cooperation, the use of airborne and special forces on the rear of the enemy,... in the early 30's) and was killed along with many of the generation of innovative military leaders that had emerged from the Civil War because Stalin feared Trotsky's influence on the army he had created (and as a consequence on its most influent and talented generals).

We could wonder what would have happened if Trotsky had succeded to Lenin as the latter had wished after realising Stalin was "much too violent" (these are his words), but this is historical fiction...