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View Full Version : Will Double Counters make a return in AC4's combat?



EchoFiveKilo
09-13-2013, 10:52 PM
Double counters were easily one of the most fun and awesome aspects of AC3's combat - yes, you might say it was easy, but the animations + choreography were absolutely awesome! And since Edward has new hidden blade animations and dual swords, I think it would make for some awesome kills.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXTc9NAaqbQ

EchoFiveKilo
09-13-2013, 10:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y6SsGODcGw

AC2_alex
09-14-2013, 12:31 AM
I hope so!

Assassin_M
09-14-2013, 12:35 AM
Yes, they return...pay attention to all the combat animations in the trailers

pyrotechnick777
09-14-2013, 12:54 AM
I think that the double counters animation could work in a sync-kill situation in the multiplayer (Solo wolfpack that is). It gets boring watching the same sync-kill animation over and over.

AdamPearce
09-14-2013, 01:17 AM
They sould add QTE with slow mo, would be awesome + fun to play. But they would have to change it each tme, otherwise it would get the wolfkilling effect.

EchoFiveKilo
09-14-2013, 01:25 AM
They sould add QTE with slow mo, would be awesome + fun to play. But they would have to change it each tme, otherwise it would get the wolfkilling effect.

I think it would be alright since it adds more interaction in the double kills - theres also those rare moments in AC3 where, if there are 2 remaining enemies in a fight, and they both attack you triggering the double counter, it has certain parts in the double counter where it slows down into slo mo, it looks so awesome but it happens very very rarely.

pyrotechnick777
09-14-2013, 04:53 AM
They sould add QTE with slow mo, would be awesome + fun to play. But they would have to change it each tme, otherwise it would get the wolfkilling effect.
I know it's not the same game but God of War had semi-random QTEs for common enemies and QTEs would make the double counters more interactive.
They could implement the QTEs and then as an unlockable cheat/hack make the QTEs automatic so that there is no need to press buttons, just enjoy the finishing animation.

LoyalACFan
09-14-2013, 06:51 AM
No QTE's, please... :nonchalance: I feel like there should be a little more challenge/skill put into the double kills since as they are they're easier than single ones, but QTE's are never the answer.

Locopells
09-14-2013, 09:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y6SsGODcGw

Never seen the one where he hits one of them in the balls before...

pacmanate
09-14-2013, 01:02 PM
Never seen the one where he hits one of them in the balls before...

I haven't seen a lot of those

Azurefeatherfly
09-14-2013, 03:48 PM
These Double Counters should be cut completely.

They are immersion breaking cut-scenes that last for way too long.

Sushiglutton
09-14-2013, 04:04 PM
These Double Counters should be cut completely.

They are immersion breaking cut-scenes that last for way too long.

*High-five!*

The choreography is nice and all, but I agree with Azure, they are just too long and it ruins the pacing. Also that the camera angle shifts is confusing and makes it feel like you are watching rather than playing even more. I can understand the philosophy that they want all players to be able to easily pull off cool looking moves given how broad the fanbase is. Double counters is just one step too far imo.

They don't have to remove it all together. Make them shorter and perhaps give the player the decision to choose which category of double counter to execute. For example when two enemies attack you need to tap counter and one other face-button. The second button determines which kind of double counter that will be performed. For example B+Y will be a counter involving the pistols, B+A will involve a kick and so on.

It would still be easy, just a bit more interactive.

itsamea-mario
09-14-2013, 05:20 PM
Yes.
why wouldn't they?
are you stupid?

lothario-da-be
09-14-2013, 09:45 PM
They better make a return! They were awesome. I hope they happen more ofthen in ac4, they rarely appeared in ac3.Almost only when fighting Jaegers.

EchoFiveKilo
09-14-2013, 09:51 PM
They better make a return! They were awesome. I hope they happen more ofthen in ac4, they rarely appeared in ac3.Almost only when fighting Jaegers.

I can make them happen frequently in combat, the trick is to not kill every single person straight away. For example if there are 3 riflemen, counter/block the first one, but only disarm/throw him, or dont attack him at all. The other 2 will then attack you at the same time triggering a double counter. You need at least 3 enemies (2 of the same type, example: 2 Jaegers, or at least an officer, and a Jaeger, since they need to be using the same weapon type) Since they happen fairly rarely without doing this, I thought those awesome double counters were underutilised, hence alot of people in this thread saying they've never seen a lot of the double counters.

EchoFiveKilo
09-14-2013, 09:54 PM
I haven't seen a lot of those

What I liked about AC3's combat is that each double counter happens dependent on your position and the enemies positioning. You can tell the devs put a lot of thought behind the combat system that wasnt recognised. The single kills moves and disarms you perform, as well as stance, are dependent on the type of block you perform (yes there are multiple ways that Connor blocks)

For example, the first kill in the Double Kill Montage video needs two Jaegers to be standing in front of you, like a triangle, you at the bottom and the two jaegers in front of you.

Another example, the dropkick one at 3:33 needs you to be sandwiched between two jaegers, one in front, and another at the back, etc. I hope this makes sense, go try it! Just experiment by moving around alot during fights.

poptartz20
09-14-2013, 10:06 PM
The double counters were great! and wow.. I've only seen about half of those by doing it myself! I wonder how many they actually used! ah... once again poor AC3 so many good things about it in a clouded cluster-eff of other things that it got over shadowed by! It's literally a diamond in the rough!

Also on another note. ..I don't like the idea of having to push multiple buttons just to pull off a double assassination... when did this become street fighter? up,down,over A+B? Same thing for just regular assassinations or the running ones It just happens and had a natural sense to it! In a real fight the same thing would happen-- (a trained fighter obviously) if anything they could be "shorter" by like 2 secs. but honestly I like them as are!

dxsxhxcx
09-14-2013, 10:18 PM
just take your time before kill everyone and you'll have the opportunity to trigger a fair amount of double counters, I agree with Sushiglutton, I don't think they need to be removed, but the animation should be shorter and the camera angle shouldn't change...

ladyleonhart
09-14-2013, 10:22 PM
I love the double counter animations in ACIII! :D Then, I don't think they're too long or break immersion at all. So, to me, they're just perfect. xD They just look so cool and make the combat look much more interesting and I think it's what we can expect from an Assassin. Then, I can't wait to see Edward utilise these in ACIV. ;) It's going to be great! xD

EchoFiveKilo
09-14-2013, 10:26 PM
just take your time before kill everyone and you'll have the opportunity to trigger a fair amount of double counters, I agree with Sushiglutton, I don't think they need to be removed, but the animation should be shorter and the camera angle shouldn't change...

I personally disagree. The animations, length and camera angle are fine as they are, I can guarantee you that the double counters will not look as good without the cinematic camera, as they personally add more immersion and intensity to the fights - if the entire fights were just a camera up at say rooftop level as they are in normal fights, it wouldnt be as interesting.

For e.g, I've seen those moments where in the middle of a double counter, where the camera zooms out because the enemy formed a firing line in the distance, the double counters looked very bland when not zoomed in. I wouldn't want them to waste all that mocap without the camera angles. The cinematic camera, as well as the slight camera shake whenever Connor makes a brutal hit on the character adds a lot of immersion.

Sushiglutton
09-14-2013, 10:35 PM
The double counters were great! and wow.. I've only seen about half of those by doing it myself! I wonder how many they actually used! ah... once again poor AC3 so many good things about it in a clouded cluster-eff of other things that it got over shadowed by! It's literally a diamond in the rough!

Also on another note. ..I don't like the idea of having to push multiple buttons just to pull off a double assassination... when did this become street fighter? up,down,over A+B? Same thing for just regular assassinations or the running ones It just happens and had a natural sense to it! In a real fight the same thing would happen-- (a trained fighter obviously) if anything they could be "shorter" by like 2 secs. but honestly I like them as are!

I mean it's a matter of taste how much interactivity players like. One extreme is that you tap a button in the beginning of the fight and then the game kills everyone on screen for you. The other extreme is that you decide every single detail of your characters moves with very complex input sequences. To me the double counter is too close to the former. I feel like a spectator rather than a participant, which is very problematic as the interactive aspect is what makes games unique imo. I don't want streetfighter either, but a slightly more complex and interacttive system would be more enjoyable for me.


I personally disagree. The animations, length and camera angle are fine as they are, I can guarantee you that the double counters will not look as good without the cinematic camera, as they personally add more immersion and intensity to the fights - if the entire fights were just a camera up at say rooftop level as they are in normal fights, it wouldnt be as interesting.

For e.g, I've seen those moments where in the middle of a double counter, where the camera zooms out because the enemy formed a firing line in the distance, the double counters looked very bland when not zoomed in. I wouldn't want them to waste all that mocap without the camera angles. The cinematic camera, as well as the slight camera shake whenever Connor makes a brutal hit on the character adds a lot of immersion.


Interesting, to me the cinematic camera is very immersion breaking. I agree it's stylish and it makes the action look better, but it completely takes me out of the moment.

Azurefeatherfly
09-14-2013, 11:23 PM
The player presses a single button input, and as a result the game uses the Player-controlled character to randomly output a cut-scene anywhere from 3-5 seconds. During that time the player is not doing anything whatsoever in regards to the act of "playing the game".

Why should the player engage in a cutscene that does not involve the player playing.

Single counters require two buttons at least in AC3, logic follows that double counters would require a little more effort.



Combat is one of three pillar mechanics, a core of the gameplay for the entire franchise.

Where is the depth deserving of a core mechanic when the game randomly picks a cut-scene at the press of a single button? Why does a "gameplay mechanic" not involve the player to "play" during it?

adventurewomen
09-14-2013, 11:36 PM
I love the roll then Tomahawk in the back animation!

I defiantly missed the double counters though, I would like for them to make a return in the future. :)

AssassinHMS
09-15-2013, 12:11 AM
Double counters were easily one of the most fun and awesome aspects of AC3's combat - yes, you might say it was easy, but the animations + choreography were absolutely awesome! And since Edward has new hidden blade animations and dual swords, I think it would make for some awesome kills.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXTc9NAaqbQ


Ah yes, this brutality and disregard for human life really fits Connorís personality, but I guess extreme violence and gore are core elements of what assassinís creed seems to be.

As for double counters, I donít want to see them in future AC games since an assassin isnít a sadistic killing machine and these choreographies are too unrealistic, even for Hollywood standards. Not to mention that all this unnecessary, brutal bloodshed is against the creed. It doesnít require any skill or major brain activity from the player and defeats the whole purpose of stealth.

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 12:14 AM
Ah yes, this brutality and disregard for human life really fits Connor’s personality, but I guess extreme violence and gore are core elements of what assassin’s creed seems to be.
http://i.imgur.com/mcHjHov.gif
Pacifist Creed.

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 12:19 AM
As for double counters, I don’t want to see them in future AC games since an assassin isn’t a sadistic killing machine and these choreographies are too unrealistic, even for Hollywood standards. Not to mention that all this unnecessary, brutal bloodshed is against the creed. It doesn’t require any skill or major brain activity from the player and defeats the whole purpose of stealth.
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/162/7/9/hippie_eddie_by_arthorde-d68mp5d.png

AssassinHMS
09-15-2013, 12:24 AM
http://i.imgur.com/mcHjHov.gif
Pacifist Creed.

http://estergomes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/graveyard.jpg
"Assassin's Creed"




And I bet none of them were even Templars...

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 12:32 AM
http://estergomes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/graveyard.jpg
"Assassin's Creed"




And I bet none of them were even Templars...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lRpY9BNhL98/UB8sVjzgIUI/AAAAAAAAAEg/g2xUK2BAL-A/s1600/raised_eyebrow.jpg

ladyleonhart
09-15-2013, 12:38 AM
Ah yes, this brutality and disregard for human life really fits Connor’s personality, but I guess extreme violence and gore are core elements of what assassin’s creed seems to be.

As for double counters, I don’t want to see them in future AC games since an assassin isn’t a sadistic killing machine and these choreographies are too unrealistic, even for Hollywood standards. Not to mention that all this unnecessary, brutal bloodshed is against the creed. It doesn’t require any skill or major brain activity from the player and defeats the whole purpose of stealth.

Connor does not disregard human life at all. He only does that if you make him. ;)

Honestly, if you want to use stealth, then you could just avoid implementing them. Then, everyone's happy. :)

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 12:41 AM
Connor does not disregard human life at all. He only does that if you make him. ;)

No no, Connor is the only Assassin who kills people and disregards human life. He's terrible, unlike the chivalrous Ezio and Altair who didn't spill a single drop of blood. their killing animations consisted of stroking breasts and throwing flowers at their enemies.

/sarcasm

EchoFiveKilo
09-15-2013, 12:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Vvoe7Dj0o

For people who havent seen these, theyre pretty cool too.

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 12:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Vvoe7Dj0o

For people who havent seen these, theyre pretty cool too.
Oh oh stop, that's terrible..how inhumane..my little heart can't bear to watch

I-Like-Pie45
09-15-2013, 12:56 AM
how did you ever get through the last of us, M?

like the scene where Desmond tries to bond with Ellie only for her to carve him and Dante up with a machete... what a psychopathic sadistic brat she is, killing an unarmed well-meaning man like that.

ladyleonhart
09-15-2013, 12:58 AM
No no, Connor is the only Assassin who kills people and disregards human life. He's terrible, unlike the chivalrous Ezio and Altair who didn't spill a single drop of blood. their killing animations consisted of stroking breasts and throwing flowers at their enemies.


You know you're definitely right. How could I forget about Ezio and Altair. All they wanted to do was spread the joy and love and then... they fell in love...

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/046/d/9/happy_valentine_s_day__yaoi__by_angels_leaf-d5v0hkr.jpg

Source: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/046/d/9/happy_valentine_s_day__yaoi__by_angels_leaf-d5v0hkr.jpg



/sarcasm

Lol, I did notice. :P

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 12:59 AM
how did you ever get through the last of us, M?

like the scene where Desmond tries to bond with Ellie only for her to carve him and Dante up with a machete... what a psychopathic sadistic brat she is, killing an unarmed well-meaning man like that.
oh my gosh, don't tell me what happened. I had the kiddie edition, Ellie actually hits Desmond with the softest, fluffiest of things and then she forgives him and they get married and have many kids.

Killing is terrible.

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 01:01 AM
You know you're definitely right. How could I forget about Ezio and Altair. All they wanted to do was spread the joy and love and then... they fell in love...

-SNIP-

Source: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/046/d/9/happy_valentine_s_day__yaoi__by_angels_leaf-d5v0hkr.jpg

That's exactly what happened



Lol, I did notice. :P
Just making sure :P

ladyleonhart
09-15-2013, 01:02 AM
how did you ever get through the last of us, M?

like the scene where Desmond tries to bond with Ellie only for her to carve him and Dante up with a machete... what a psychopathic sadistic brat she is, killing an unarmed well-meaning man like that.

The more I hear about TLoU, the more I'm glad that I changed my mind. o_0

SixKeys
09-15-2013, 01:04 AM
The more I hear about TLoU, the more I'm glad that I changed my mind. o_0

I do hope your sarcasm detector is on.

ladyleonhart
09-15-2013, 01:05 AM
I do hope your sarcasm detector is on.

Should it be on at this particular moment...? :confused:

adventurewomen
09-15-2013, 01:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Vvoe7Dj0o

For people who havent seen these, theyre pretty cool too.
This is one of the reasons why I love Connor, this is badass!

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 01:14 AM
Should it be on at this particular moment...? :confused:
It ALWAYS should be:p

ladyleonhart
09-15-2013, 01:19 AM
It ALWAYS should be:p

Always...? :nonchalance:

You're being sarcastic, right now? Aren't you? :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
09-15-2013, 01:21 AM
Always...? :nonchalance:

You're being sarcastic, right now? Aren't you? :rolleyes:
maybe:p

Not always, of course...just most of the time you're around here xD

Ureh
09-15-2013, 03:58 AM
I like the ones where he stacks them on top/next to each other then kills them in one stroke. Musket and heavy weapon iirc.

RatonhnhakeFan
09-15-2013, 04:00 AM
To this day I don't really know how to get 2 enemies to attack me at once, let alone 3... :(

Ureh
09-15-2013, 04:40 AM
To this day I don't really know how to get 2 enemies to attack me at once, let alone 3... :(

They occur randomly, I think. Just keep parrying at the right time and Connor does the rest automatically. To perform the pistol/rope dart double kills just press the item button after you disarm someone or in the middle of a kill streak.

poptartz20
09-15-2013, 04:42 AM
To this day I don't really know how to get 2 enemies to attack me at once, let alone 3... :(

It happened to me when I was usually surrounded by enemies and 2 or them attacked me at once in close range. I hit the counter button and it automatically went into the DK animation!

LoyalACFan
09-15-2013, 06:30 AM
It happened to me when I was usually surrounded by enemies and 2 or them attacked me at once in close range. I hit the counter button and it automatically went into the DK animation!

This, and I'll add that it usually happens more frequently when 3-4 Jaegers are around.

EchoFiveKilo
09-16-2013, 10:26 PM
This, and I'll add that it usually happens more frequently when 3-4 Jaegers are around.

Yeah you just need 3 enemies, 2 of the same type.

ladyleonhart
09-16-2013, 10:53 PM
To this day I don't really know how to get 2 enemies to attack me at once, let alone 3... :(

There's the glitch in the northern part of Boston. It's outside the Smith & Co. Brewery near the docks. I discovered its location yesterday and it works every time. Then, you fight patriots and they just keep coming, which makes it really easy to see the double counter kill animations. Additionally, with your notoriety at level three you won't even get Jaegers, which actually increases your chances of implementing double counter kills since all of the enemies you encounter are the same. So all you really need to do is counter when two enemies attack, which is indicated by the two red icons that appear simultaneously above their heads.

adventurewomen
09-16-2013, 10:55 PM
There's the glitch in the northern part of Boston. It's outside the Smith & Co. Brewery near the docks. I discovered its location yesterday and it works every time. Then, you fight patriots and they just keep coming, which makes it really easy to see the double counter kill animations. Additionally, with your notoriety at level three you won't even get Jaegers, which actually increases your chances of implementing double counter kills since all of the enemies you encounter are the same. So all you really need to do is counter when two enemies attack, which is indicated by the two red icons that appear simultaneously above their heads.
I noticed this too, I thought I only had this problem! xD

Good to know that you encountered this problem as well!

ladyleonhart
09-16-2013, 11:17 PM
I noticed this too, I thought I only had this problem! xD

Good to know that you encountered this problem as well!

Lol, I never thought of it as a problem. It's actually quite entertaining. xD

Glad I could help. ;)

Anyway, I thought it might be useful to mention it because it can increase the probability of implementing the double counter kill animations. Also, I think someone actually started a thread before because they wanted to encounter more enemies all at one to increase their kill count or something. So, before, I wasn't really sure about the location of the glitch, but I know it's definitely there now and it works every time. :)

LightRey
09-17-2013, 12:03 AM
There's the glitch in the northern part of Boston. It's outside the Smith & Co. Brewery near the docks. I discovered its location yesterday and it works every time. Then, you fight patriots and they just keep coming, which makes it really easy to see the double counter kill animations. Additionally, with your notoriety at level three you won't even get Jaegers, which actually increases your chances of implementing double counter kills since all of the enemies you encounter are the same. So all you really need to do is counter when two enemies attack, which is indicated by the two red icons that appear simultaneously above their heads.
I love that spot.

EchoFiveKilo
09-17-2013, 12:24 AM
There's the glitch in the northern part of Boston. It's outside the Smith & Co. Brewery near the docks. I discovered its location yesterday and it works every time. Then, you fight patriots and they just keep coming, which makes it really easy to see the double counter kill animations. Additionally, with your notoriety at level three you won't even get Jaegers, which actually increases your chances of implementing double counter kills since all of the enemies you encounter are the same. So all you really need to do is counter when two enemies attack, which is indicated by the two red icons that appear simultaneously above their heads.

I'd like to do that but it does it create problems with frame rate what with all the bodies? Anyway I sort of have a 'circuit' I have in NY and Boston, NY I start at the southern markets and make my way through the groups of patriots that are scattered everywhere. I eventually end up at the middle somewhere then at the NE part of NY. Then I proceed to fast travel to each fort and fight everyone hehe.