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View Full Version : Oleg - The prop wash dust is the coolest d*mn thing I've ever seen come out of a computer.



XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:59 AM
I'm sorry but that's just cool as heck. The dust on the grass fields and the water spray from the props.

The greatness is in the little things.

I absolutely LOVE the new landing/flap operations too. You have to try and make a correct landing approach now~!! GREAT~! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Great work. ---- and most of all.... the wallet is happy.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:59 AM
I'm sorry but that's just cool as heck. The dust on the grass fields and the water spray from the props.

The greatness is in the little things.

I absolutely LOVE the new landing/flap operations too. You have to try and make a correct landing approach now~!! GREAT~! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Great work. ---- and most of all.... the wallet is happy.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 01:12 AM
Thats cause Propwash is cool.

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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 01:16 AM
I say screw the propwash eye-candy crap and fix the friggin' planes and sounds!!

sry - I haven't vented in awhile now.

adlabs6
08-15-2003, 01:42 AM
I thought that dust was great too. Fun to sit in the middle of the pack in a campaign now, watching each go ahead of me. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 01:46 AM
It does add atmosphere to see the dust flying as the planes lined up in front kick up some dust. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Bridge flying is very cool now too, make a track and have a look at the waves as you climb away.

Outstanding /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 01:52 AM
the dust actually adds some to the gameplay, believe it or not. online, i usually fly on the deck, so close i can reach out and touch the ground. the other players can't see me as they are usually so high. then i sneak behind my enemy and bam! they're dead. unfortunately, now they'll see my propwash from a mile away, so i guess i'll have to use real tactics now



Message Edited on 08/14/0307:56PM by Timmothias

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:41 AM
Over snow the propwash is white.

What detail /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious


http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/usp266.jpg

Hunter82
08-15-2003, 04:39 AM
get real close on a bogey or a friendly just off to the left or right and enjoy the ride /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 04:46 AM
is there turbulance???????
if so thats awsome!!!!!!
also yes i aggre with the original poster it the little things that make this game soooooo cool and we just got a few more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Hunter82 wrote:
- get real close on a bogey or a friendly just off to
- the left or right and enjoy the ride /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 04:57 AM
I was in an online DF last night, and had a P40 on my tail I managed to cause him to overshoot and as he went inches over my cockpit my plane was rocked by the turbulance.

Also had another incident quite a few miles from base I was shot up by 2 P47's I was smoking badly cockpit full of holes, when my engine burst in flames, I cut the thtrottle and was about to bail when the flames went out and I was able to struggle home and made a good landing got out wounded and the flames started up again destroying my plane.

This sim is always delivering new suprises even after playing it and IL2 for 2 years.

JG4_Tiger

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 05:53 AM
I like to fly reeeall low over the enemy airfield, infront of taxing planes or ones taking off, to give htem a little turbulence and some prowpwash. It just pi*ses them off, buts its fun and i even made someone crash once http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 06:05 AM
surlybirch wrote:
- I'm sorry but that's just cool as heck. The dust on
- the grass fields and the water spray from the props.

surlybirch,

Too bad you have never played Falcon 4.0, when it came out in 1998 it had this effect and still does to this day. Just imagine instead of in a prop your in an F16 doing 700kts +, talk about kicking up some dust! I'm glad Oleg and his crew made it happen in FB, now if someone could just model a sonic boom on a flyby view - that is something i have never seen or heard before in a sim.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0adci/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/image1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 06:58 AM
Yep,

Oleg added the dust trails to test requirements for the new Med & North Africa Theater......:-)

Do217P

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 07:10 AM
I noticed something neat--when the ai planes are lined up on the runway to takeoff, they will all turn their planes sideways to see ahead of them in the cockpit. Cool detail!!

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michapma
08-15-2003, 07:42 AM
Weather_Man, that's awesome. Gotta check that out!

The propwash is great for mission start, now it's easier especially for the number 2 position, who doesn't always have time to orient sideways on takeoff before it's his go. The dust lets him know when it's safe. Only problem is it makes my fps drop about 5&ndash;7. I like the taxiing better now too, I can rotate without going forward better, and take-offs are much smoother (talking Ishak here).

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

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Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 09:12 AM
LW_Cobra wrote:
- now if someone could just model a sonic boom on
- a flyby view - that is something i have never seen
- or heard before in a sim.

Lo-Mac will have this effect. There was a movie in which this effect was noticeable.

I'm sure Oleg would do this, but unfortunately no super-sonic flight for us /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 09:27 AM
Yeah, right!

They give us a new eye-candy which eats FPS, again, like the FB isn't resource demanding enough!

At the same time they screw up all the early war german FM's.

I cannot believe that before the patch the E model FM's were so way off (wrong) that this complete turnaround for the worse is "the correct FM".

There is NO way the Mig-3 could out-turn the F2 IRL which is very easy now in FB.

Lets's face it: PATCH SUCKS BIG TIME!!!

AND THE GERMANS GOT SCREWED AGAIN.

And I don't want to listen to no "give some data to back up your FM story"--Maddox HAS ALL THE DATA.

So i ask you all, especially Vengeanze who is so keen on defending the new patch: How come that Maddox, who has all the data could change the FM's so drastically between patches??! The DATA DOESN'T CHANGE! The numbers are ALWAYS the same-so how is it possible that the FM's are CONSTANTLY changed??

ANSWER ME THAT!!

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 09:51 AM
Robi_15_JG52 wrote:
- Yeah, right!
-
- They give us a new eye-candy which eats FPS, again,
- like the FB isn't resource demanding enough!
-
- At the same time they screw up all the early war
- german FM's.
-
- I cannot believe that before the patch the E model
- FM's were so way off (wrong) that this complete
- turnaround for the worse is "the correct FM".
-
- There is NO way the Mig-3 could out-turn the F2 IRL
- which is very easy now in FB.
-
- Lets's face it: PATCH SUCKS BIG TIME!!!
-
- AND THE GERMANS GOT SCREWED AGAIN.
-
- And I don't want to listen to no "give some data to
- back up your FM story"--Maddox HAS ALL THE DATA.
-
- So i ask you all, especially Vengeanze who is so
- keen on defending the new patch: How come that
- Maddox, who has all the data could change the FM's
- so drastically between patches??! The DATA DOESN'T
- CHANGE! The numbers are ALWAYS the same-so how is it
- possible that the FM's are CONSTANTLY changed??
-
- ANSWER ME THAT!!



I will give you my answer if you tell me how you know that the FM are off in this patch.
You're a vet? You got tons of documents and charts?
Books?


The FM/DM is constantly corrected to be as close to rl as possible.
From what I've read the patch gave us the most real simulator accesable to the public.

I'm very grateful that Mr. Oleg takes his time to time after time try to perfect the FM/DM.

If you feel so screwed then go back to CFS2 where flaps didn't have lift.

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 09:52 AM
LW_Cobra wrote:
- Too bad you have never played Falcon 4.0, when it
- came out in 1998 it had this effect and still does
- to this day. Just imagine instead of in a prop your
- in an F16 doing 700kts +, talk about kicking up some
- dust! I'm glad Oleg and his crew made it happen in
- FB, now if someone could just model a sonic boom on
- a flyby view - that is something i have never seen
- or heard before in a sim.

You ask, Lo-Mac delivers!

Watch this video:

http://www.pcarena.com/previews/lomac/beta/preview.html

You'll notice that the sonic boom is not there in the begining, because the MiG-29 is not supersonic yet. Then, at a later fly-by, you have two sonic booms because you hear the one of the Foxbat too. And then in the end, a magnificent supersonic fly-by wih boom and all.

The sonic booms are there, but there is also complete silence when you are in FRONT of supersonic planes.... - Rotate behind them and you hear the noise!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 09:56 AM
Yup Weather_Man, noticed that too. Wasn't to sure at that first, but they actually turn. Pretty cool huh? I wonder if there is more stuff like this to be discovered. With or without bugs, this sim still rocks.

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 09:59 AM
I think, the dust clouds are overdone and have to be reduced

++ 88.IAP_Manuc ++

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:07 AM
I think the best is a low fly over water. The wake and water spray kicks arse!!!

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:10 AM
Robi_15_JG52, you seem to have no clue about the process of programming the FM/DM.

If you've followed Isegrim and others heated debate about WHICH numbers are correct then you might understand the complexity.

First, what data should be used?

German or russian or english or american testflight data?

or

German or russian or english or american performance data of planes in service (differs from new planes due to varying maintenance during the war, etc)?

or

Should they use data provided by veterans?

or

Maybe data from the Internet where most of you "specialists" have found it?

or

maybe a mix of all the above?



Then after deciding on the data you need to program it for different altitudes and different affecting damages etc.
And this has to be done for somewhere around 120 different planes.

While doing this there's alot of other things that needs to be worked on like graphics, sound, netcode, AI, skins, etc etc.


Considering the above I can understand and accept that 1C:Maddox Games didn't get everything right at once.

BUT I'm very grateful that Mr. Maddox, in contrast to MS, takes his time to perfecting the game.



Btw I see you're a new user Robi. Welcome to these boards!

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 10:22 AM
As LW_Cobra wrote, Falcon 4.0 was already doing this in 1998, only above water (it was the days when all of us had seen the Clint Eastwood flying the Firefox above water...).

Regardless, very very nice seeing this (and many other things) in IL2. Many many thanks Oleg!!!!


Now I know that this is a bit out of the original subject...as I see there is lots of people with F4.0 knowledge:

How's LOMAC ? --> Better than F4.0 ?
How's the Graphics? -> Better than F4.0 ?/ Better than IL2FB ?
How's the AI? -> Better than F4.0 ?/ Better than IL2FB ?
How's the Filight Model? -> Better than F4.0 ?/ Better than IL2FB ?

Zayets
08-15-2003, 10:49 AM
Nope , he's not a newbie , he got more than 10 posts.
Patch is good for me , actually even unpatched I would still play the game. Bothering for me are "minor things". I would like ,for example , to change the gunsight in some planes. I love the ones on P-40 , Hurri , P-47. Also german ones. Russian ones have that thick green lines on La,P-39. I hate that. But I understood they will remain like that. I hate aalso the fact that I can't see "the sacred 6" on the Jug without glancing downward. I still hate ship AAA for the amount of lead they pour on you , well , this is in QMB. I don't like the fact that below 20% throttle , Cobra engine sounds the same even with throttle on idle,but maybe is my sound card , who knows.I hate also the resources this sim takes , but maybe we entered a new era , who knows.BUT! I'm very pleased with the patch , no big change for me as I liked unpatched version as well.I'm not an Oleg fanboy , but I think he does the thing right and I like him when is doing that. And also because he's stubborn enough not to give up his ideas , see FW windshield (I think also the FOV is very limited , but that's another story).
In a word , good work Oleg & team!

And Ven , flaps do have lift in CFS2. Ways to reproduce it:
1.Start CFS2 via start menu or a shortcut on your desktop
2.Pick no matter plane and take off. If you're in a hurry , press E to automatically start the engine.
3.Flaps down , increase throttle , pull stick a bit and you are airborne.
4.Circle a bit over the runway.
5.Reduce throttle and align for final.
6.Flaps down a notch , you will notice a change in your nose attitude.
7.Flaps full down , and you will see how you will slow down with lift.

CFS2 was a good sim for its days. Sometimes I fire it up , just to forget about the things I don't like in FB. Helps every time , after 15 minutes I quit CFS2 and start FB again.


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 11:01 AM
Thanks for the welcome Vengeanze but I'm not a new user.
I just have new name since i lost (forgot) the pass of the old one, which was Robi_15JG52, and the Ubi help service in getting forgotten passwords didn't help.

So, I had to create a new account.
In fact, I've been here a LONG time, before RBJ and all the new comers. i just didn't post much.

About the data you mention: I AM NOT SAYING I AM AN EXPERT. I AM NOT AN "INTERNET" EXPERT OR ANY SUCH THING.

I base my points on flying the air sims for ages, including WW2, EAW and the IL since the release.

But, more than that I base my points on OLEG'S DATA.
As i have already explained, i don't understand how the FM's could be changed with EVERY patch so drastically. You say the FM's are getting better every time. I dissaprove.

E series, for example: before the patch, with manual pitch, they climebed like hell, and had dive speeds close to 700 kph. Now, with the auto-pitch they are dogs, can't climb, can't fly fast.

Damn, even Mig3 is as fast as F4! And turns better!
It also turns better than F2! And that is just NOT possible, no matter which data you use.

So, it isn't possible the FM got "more accurate" when the performance is DEGRADED SO MUCH. Now, if the performance was degaded slightly, I could accept that as "being better FM, closer to reality".
But these changes are just too big, making the user question the previous FM's of the planes.

Same thing goes for Russian planes, only in the opposite direction.
For example, Mig3 was a dog before, with puny weapons, now it is fast, turns marvelously, and the armament is MUCh deadlier. Now I don't dare go HTH with it in Emil (and HTH are ALWAYS a bad idea), but I am making an example here. Those MiG's machineguns tear the engine right off the Emil.

and the russian 7.62mms are lethal as before, while german 7.9mms are puny as before. And that simply isn't possible. How come 7.62 have HEAP ammo and 7.9mms only AP ammo?

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 11:14 AM
"Nope , he's not a newbie , he got more than 10 posts."

Good attempt at sarcasm,Zayets, but I assure you its not needed here. Just read my answer. Ppl like you (kids, whether by age or by mental condition) are the EXACT reason I dont post here. No insult intended, that's just how I feel about this forum, which is sad since it an official one, and I'm not alone in this thinking-but none of that matters now, I just wanted to raise some questions about the FM's in patch.

Pppl, if you check some other boards, you will find out the othe users don't have much respect for this community, just because there are so many immature ppl here.

michapma
08-15-2003, 11:55 AM
Has anybody checked how the propwash looks when it's raining?

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:06 PM
I know nothing about planes so I trust that Oleg with his many sources and devotion to realism model everything as close to rl as possible.

When adjusting FM there might be some planes that will loose in performance.
This might be because it was overmodeled in earlier version.

I recognize your extensive experience with flightsims but IL-2:FB is different with it's complicated FM and CEM.
Maybe you should give it another try and check with others on how to fly your fav-plane.

Also please know that the way we fly this sim isn't very lifelike in some aspects.
For instance, there were rarely any turn and burn fights.

(read this article (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html) on the subject)

If we flew in accordance with history I'm sure the balance between the different planes would be very much like in rl.

But I have to add a disclaimer as I have no idea how a WW2 plane flies.


Edit: Added the link.

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

Message Edited on 08/15/0301:13PM by Vengeanze

michapma
08-15-2003, 12:14 PM
Robi,

I understand what you're talking about concerning the opinion of other boards about this board. However, the reasons for this kind of opinion has nothing to do with the kind of casual remark that Zayets made in jest, you will find that every day in any of those other boards. It has to do rather with a specific other kind of behavior, and that's too bad but that's how it is. I understand you don't appreciate Zayets's post, but I think it was rather meant as a bit of humor and not the kind of immature jab you seem to have taken it for.

In any case I can't say that your use of the CAPS lock and ranting was much more "grown up." Since you've been around so long and have such a developed taste for forum behavior I should think you ought to know that it brings nothing positive. You also tried to hijack a fun thread. (Ven bit, too.)

That aside, I hope you can enjoy the sim for what it is.I haven't been flying for as long as you have and I love the realistic and historic challenges too, but I do try to take the flight models with a grain of salt. The IL-2/FB flight and damage models have been a huge step forward. The fact that you have spent so much time studying them that you know all this even for a few aircraft within a few days of the patch release implies that you agree. (In fact your arguments haven't convinced me about anything except that you don't find it to be right.) I think a move toward more involved models (flight and damage as well as graphical) with fewer planes, which Oleg has hinted at for a further sim, is another step in the direction we and many others like.

With your taste for realistic combat and flight and your knowledge of aircraft, maybe you can make a positive contribution, at the forum of your choosing.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

Zayets
08-15-2003, 12:19 PM
Robi_15_JG52 wrote:

- Good attempt at sarcasm,Zayets, but I assure you its
- not needed here.

Sheesh man! Was this sarcasm coz I don't feel it like that. For me a newbie is "New user" , and I can assure you here's not a drop of sarcasm as it wasn't in the previous post!

-Just read my answer.

Funny stuff , I was on your side regarding the issue.

- Ppl like you
- kids, whether by age or by mental condition) are
- the EXACT reason I dont post here.

I am a kid , that's true , everyone in this forum is a kid "by age or by mental condition" - end quote.

-No insult intended,

Muhahahahahaaha!!! Read above your quote! None taken. BTW , I never feel insulted , I take it as a lesson.

- Pppl, if you check some other boards, you will find
- out the othe users don't have much respect for this
- community, just because there are so many immature
- ppl here.

Who keeps you here?You're not forced to stay.And yep, yer 100% correct: so many immature ppl here! (please note here a drop of sarcasm , I thought it will spice it up).




Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:21 PM
Chap, does that mean you bite too? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

michapma
08-15-2003, 12:26 PM
I bite when feeling frisky. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif Besides, there was a lot more propwash in my post. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-tongue.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 12:54 PM
Point taken Michampa and Zayets.

It was NOT my intent to hijack the thread and I do apologize to all, especially Surlybirch, who thought I was doing that.

next, my use of caps Lock is NOT intended as shouting but only to make a firm statement (like using a bold text).
I wanted to be absolutely clear that I NEVER claimed to be an expert, just stating my points on the experience with the flight sims.

Vengeanze, I did read that article some time ago, and this is the part all of the users should read:

"This article has given you some information about the performance of IL2 aircraft, and discussed the comparison between them and their real world counterparts. There can be little doubt, that flight simulations in general still have a long way to go before we can make meaningful comparisons with reality,..."

It IS true that FB comes VERY close, but, again, I cannot understand such big changes in FM between patches.

Also, many "whiners" as you call them would shut up if Oleg would present the materials to which he makes the changes. i am also aware that he's got to obey the copiright, and that makes a problem even bigger.


I liked his post about the FW's cockpit visibility. I sure did silence all the ppl that thought it was unrealistic, didn't it.

Now, why doesn't he do the same about FM's, at least share some info that is NOT copyrighted. It would surely help make useful debates (not arguments like it has so far on this board) and help to make this great game even better.


To summarize, you don't have to be an expert, just read some of the books about WW2 and you will see that current MiG3 performance in NOT correct. same goes for the E anf F.


On the other part, FW is as it should be now...I can't understand why, while some AC are being updated more accurately (like the said FW and P47), some are degraded without any reason?

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 01:52 PM
Robi,

from what I understand there is a good reason for the drastic changes of the FM in every patch.

The reason is that this sim does not use the method of table look-ups. This method is quite simple in comparison: you have a set of general rules which are forming the engine core. Then for every plane in the sim you have a set of tables which determine the behavior of the plane in a given situation. For example: player rolls plane, table for roll rate is read out; or player gives the stick input for a horizontal turn, turn rate is being read out.

If FB would work in this way, it would indeed be difficult to understand why there are so big changes with the patches.

But for IL-2 and FB 1C:Maddox Games has chosen a different approach, one which is unmesuarable more difficult to master. They have created a dynamic environment of physical laws, in which every plane is an object which consits of a set of physical data, weight, lift, wingload etc.

The big problem now is, this approach can never be exact. Sure, the physical laws of aerodynamics are known, but there is no computer on this planet which can calculate the motion of an airplane through the air in real time. This means that for the sim the programmers need to find good shortcuts, formulas which can be calculated in real time and give good guesses, so to speak, under most circumstances.

And this set of formulas is what is being tweaked all the time. Because the system is dynamic in nature, with every tweak there is a risk that the results of the calculations will be far off the mark with a certain plane under certain circumstances.

I'm sure that in the current version we see the result of literally countless hours of work. And, speaking only for me, I'm very, very grateful for this, because this work was necessary to give us this certain feel of flying a plane and not just moving the landscape around the plane, which got us all addicted since we first tried out the demo of IL-2.

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 02:51 PM
Copperhead's FB Dictionary:
Luft~Chicken- SEE Robi_15_JG52

Prime example of a crybaby Luftwhiner.
And just how the sam h-ll do you think the Germans got screwed? HAVE YOU ACTUALLY FLOWN A P-47 IN FB? And you think you Luft~waffle fan boys got screwed? lol hahahhaa
gimme a break. US Guys have got it way worse. and i'll tell you the same thing we get told-Sorry pal but dem's the breaks. LIVE WITH IT.

As for the patch....it's an open beta. which means it's still a work in progress. the new "eyecandy" is great and i have hardly noticed any drop in frame rate. (and i'm on a gforce 2 mx 400 card) Sure so far it seems like we've traded off some old bugs for new bugs. Like the sound dropping to almost nothing while playing online. but it's been reported and it will be fixed. As for the p-47...it's a heavily armord Brewster.

Now go fly your crappy F2 and Shudddup. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Robi_15_JG52wrote:
- Yeah, right!
They give us a new eye-candy which eats FPS, again,
- like the FB isn't resource demanding enough!
-
- At the same time they screw up all the early war
- german FM's.
-
- I cannot believe that before the patch the E model
- FM's were so way off (wrong) that this complete
- turnaround for the worse is "the correct FM".
-
- There is NO way the Mig-3 could out-turn the F2 IRL
- which is very easy now in FB.
-
- Lets's face it: PATCH SUCKS BIG TIME!!!
-
- AND THE GERMANS GOT SCREWED AGAIN.
-


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Message Edited on 08/15/0308:59AM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
08-15-2003, 03:09 PM
I absolutely love the dust effect! The only one more thing I could wish for is grass runway with grass bending from prop wash! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Just briliant Oleg&Co!

michapma
08-15-2003, 03:54 PM
Guys, I have put some effort into expressing my thoughts on Robi's question (yes Ven, I bit hard), but in order not to hijack this thread any further I've started a new thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zaxcv


Let's go make some propwash! /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>