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View Full Version : Well that explains my aiming troubles...



Mitlov47
02-26-2004, 09:07 PM
I've got a Logitech Wingman Extreme joystick, and I'd been having a lot of trouble targeting in the game. The nose would buck back and forth a lot when I was doing fine maneuvers. I always figured it was because I sucked.

Turns out, it isn't that! (Okay, I still suck, but not as badly). I had joystick-twist set to work the rudders. What I didn't know was that the default setting for the Yaw controls are 100% rudder power with ANY input. So I was giving it max rudder left, then max rudder right, etc. Now that I reset the hardware controls so that 20% twist gives 20% rudder, I'm all of a sudden ten times better as a pilot! Imagine that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

So if anyone is having trouble with odd aircraft handling out there, and you're using joystick twist to work the rudder, check the settings. Make sure those percentage slider things go progressively up, instead of all of them bing set at 100%.

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I fly the I-16 because it's like a Welsh Corgi with razor-sharp teeth.

Mitlov47
02-26-2004, 09:07 PM
I've got a Logitech Wingman Extreme joystick, and I'd been having a lot of trouble targeting in the game. The nose would buck back and forth a lot when I was doing fine maneuvers. I always figured it was because I sucked.

Turns out, it isn't that! (Okay, I still suck, but not as badly). I had joystick-twist set to work the rudders. What I didn't know was that the default setting for the Yaw controls are 100% rudder power with ANY input. So I was giving it max rudder left, then max rudder right, etc. Now that I reset the hardware controls so that 20% twist gives 20% rudder, I'm all of a sudden ten times better as a pilot! Imagine that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

So if anyone is having trouble with odd aircraft handling out there, and you're using joystick twist to work the rudder, check the settings. Make sure those percentage slider things go progressively up, instead of all of them bing set at 100%.

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I fly the I-16 because it's like a Welsh Corgi with razor-sharp teeth.

Bull_dog_
02-26-2004, 09:28 PM
I had the exact same thing happen to me lol

I have since switched to a saitek x-45 and I'll never go back...if you can scrape together the money it is worth the investment.

diomedes33
02-26-2004, 09:53 PM
Had a problem along the same lines a while ago. Accidently bound my left rudder trim to the same key I use to fire my guns.

I'd be flying straight and level and after awhile I would be fighting my rudder. Took me three days to figure out what was going on.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Mitlov47
02-26-2004, 11:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
I had the exact same thing happen to me lol

I have since switched to a saitek x-45 and I'll never go back...if you can scrape together the money it is worth the investment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know the Logitech Wingman Extreme isn't exactly the best joystick on the market. HOWEVER, it is for all intents and purposes ambidextrous. And I'm left-handed, so 98% of the joysticks on the market (including the Saitek X-45) don't work for me.

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I fly the I-16 because it's like a Welsh Corgi with razor-sharp teeth.

antifreeze
02-27-2004, 03:41 AM
&gt;What I didn't know was that the default setting for the Yaw controls are 100% rudder power with
&gt;ANY input. So I was giving it max rudder left, then max rudder right, etc.

That is wrong. It does not mean 'max left and max right' is set when all the sliders at 100%. You think the sliders work this way because the joystick sucks so much. Once you actually have a joystick that works properly, it is easy to work out what the sliders actually do; you are barking up the wrong tree because your raw data from the stick is so poor and the stick movement is so limited.
In the case of an accurate joystick (Eg. a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold) the sliders and other profile settings hardly need to be touched at all. Dump the Logitech. You will instantly be twice as good at flying and shooting and you'll enjoy the game a lot more.

BTW EMitton, Saiteks Cyborg 3D Gold is completely ambidextrous; I use two at the same time for FB... one set-up for my left hand and set-up one for my right.

http://forgotten.battles.pulpo.co.uk/il2logo.gif

[This message was edited by antifreeze on Fri February 27 2004 at 02:57 AM.]

HansKnappstick
02-27-2004, 03:45 AM
If he says he had, then probably he had.

It happened also to me that all the yaw settings were at 100%.

Resetting them to linear didn't make an ace of me though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

antifreeze
02-27-2004, 03:50 AM
sorry, hansknappstick. I have now edited my above post so that it didn't look as if I was trying to contradict the facts given. My fault for not concentrating. More clearly, what I meant to say was that having the sliders all at 100% does not mean that you apply 'max' rudder, even if you rotate your stick just a fraction.
I did write a good description of the profile screen, including exactly what the sliders do, on this forum, but it got lost in the transfer. I'm not going to explain it again though; too difficult to make everything crystal clear.

http://forgotten.battles.pulpo.co.uk/il2logo.gif

[This message was edited by antifreeze on Fri February 27 2004 at 03:45 AM.]

HansKnappstick
02-27-2004, 04:03 AM
You are right.

Joystick (including twist?) controls the _forces_ the virtual pilot applies to his controls. So if you twis your handle by 10% of the max value, the virtual pedals feel 10% of the maximal force applied to them.

The yaw control settings perform an additional correction to that, i.e. if it says 10% at the first point, and you twist your handle by 10%, what your "alter ego" applies to his pedals is 1% of his max strength.

Usually, people have some kind of steadily growing correction, so that small handle movements are neglected and large handle movements act with the full authority on the control surfaces of the aircraft.

The problem is, out of a sudden the correction gets constant, i.e. 100%, then if you twist the handle just a little, you get, instead of your expected 1%, a 10%... Actually it felt as if it was 150% in my case !!! This can be very annoying and destroy your flying.

CaptainGelo
02-27-2004, 04:11 AM
where can u change it from 100 to 10?

never changed anything, but have no problems killing thingshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/p38abig.jpg

antifreeze
02-27-2004, 04:21 AM
yep, that's not a bad description, HansKnappstick.

There are two problems with using the logitech with FB. Firstly the movement of the stick is very limited. Eg. the Siatek moves twice as far as the logitech. That means you can be twice as accurate with it regarding your movements. So its easier, for instance, to balance planes on the edge of their flight envelopes without stalling.
Secondly, the *raw* data of the logitech jumps all over the place, whereas in the Saitek it is smooth and accurate. Look at the red box on the FB profile screen. That's the raw data from the joystick; I bet with the logitech the red box doesn't follow your movements very accurately when you move the stick. I used to believe that the profile would fix that, but it doesn't. You have to dampen the inaccurate data so much that the controls just get sluggish.
(BTW, the green box is the data that the game uses after deadzone, filter and slider settings have been applied).

Oleg86: From the FB menu choose 'hardware setup' then 'input'. There are 3 sets of sliders to adjust the sensitivity of your joystick for each axis. Deadzone is for when your stick doesn't centre properly or has a bit of 'wobble' in the centre position. And Filter is how much you let FB interpret and 'soften' your movements/stick data.

http://forgotten.battles.pulpo.co.uk/il2logo.gif

[This message was edited by antifreeze on Fri February 27 2004 at 04:20 AM.]

Lithium1970
02-27-2004, 05:05 AM
EMitton:
You have the same stick as I, what are yours settings in?

I am asking because I encounter the same problems.

F19_Orheim
02-27-2004, 05:22 AM
Well this is a bit of OT, but I can't refrain myself...

Hmm In my own humble opinion there is a lot of talk about how much better pilot you will get if you buy this or that joystick for a lot of dough. I have been playing sims for quite many years now and I consider myself quite a decent pilot. I have always bought Logitechs cos they do the job and they are not that expensive.
Many times have I been on the verge of buying a X-45 or CH pedals or whatever, but have come to my senses and used my money on stuff that for me has been more important: graphic cards, CPU:s, RAM:s, overall upgrading my rig etc etc.

However I have ONE thing that cost a lot of dough and that I am happy to have bought, and I know it has improved my pilotskills in terms of the very important Situation Awareness, and that is a Track IR, the first version.

I don't want to tell people what they should spend their money on, but if you have put aside some dough to buy a new 100$ joystick, think again and consider the TrackIR device instead. I assure you, this will improve your skill as a dogfigter more than a new "a hole lot of cash"-joystick.

Sorry for interrupting.

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

Mitlov47
02-27-2004, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lithium1970:
EMitton:
You have the same stick as I, what are yours settings in?

I am asking because I encounter the same problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I greatly improved control of my Logitech using the following settings

Roll: (default at 10/20/30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100)
I set it to 0/11/22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/100.

Pitch: (default at 10/20/30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100)
I set it to 0/11/22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/100.

Yaw: (default at 100/100/100/100/etc)
I set it to I set it to 0/11/22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/100.

This helps keep the random twitching of the red "raw input" square under control. It also dramatically helps with overapplication of rudder. My targeting ability skyrocketed with just a couple hours of play. If you don't have the dough to replace the Logitech (which I'm considering doing), these settings will at least make the game much more playable.

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I-16: the killer corgi.

Mitlov47
02-27-2004, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by antifreeze:
BTW EMitton, Saiteks Cyborg 3D Gold is completely ambidextrous; I use two at the same time for FB... one set-up for my left hand and set-up one for my right.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will look into getting one then. I was not familiar with this model. The day I bought IL-2, the Logitech Wingman Extreme was the only ambidextrous joystick at CompUSA, so I took it. I'm sure there are better sticks out there, but it's treated me pretty decently--I never had any problems with other games I play (Mechwarrior 4, Starlancer).

I'm seriously considering getting the Saitek, but I'm a bit strapped for cash at the moment...dang it.

---------------------------
I-16: the killer corgi.

flyingskid2
02-27-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EMitton:
I set it to 0/11/22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/100.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not using a good curve. That's mainly just shifting the sensitivity outward. And it's now ramping up even faster than the default. 11/22/33/etc is faster ramp up than 10/20/30/etc. And you've maxed out your sensitivity on the 9th setting (99~=100) so you're using less travel to get full response.

The idea of using parabolic curve is to have slow ramp up on initial travel and faster ramp up on the end of travel. Your new setting doesn't have a slower ramp up anywhere in its travel.

If you think it improved your gunnery, then you should just go back to the default 10/20/30/etc and just increase your deadzone. Same effect.

ucanfly
02-27-2004, 02:33 PM
I have to concur on the Logitech Extreme not being very smooth. I had A Didital Extreme USB a couple years ago and noticed it was very jumpy (almost impossible to shoot down bandits in IL2 demo), and then the Rudder axis would suddenly go haywire (noisy) after 6 mos. I got 2 more LOgitechs (thinking they were defective or something and then gave up.

I switched to Saitek Cyborg Gold (even though I thought it looked kinda funky) and it was a revelation! The stick was soooooo much smoother than the LOgitech it was unbelievable! I haven't looked back since (still have the same stick).