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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:56 AM
Ok so every damn day now theres some new person talking about realism, well today its me and just a few points that i feel to be corrected in the patch.

a) Russian built aircraft very rarely had both Radio Transmitters and Receivers, Bombers always had both but due to russian technology and the weight of radios they limited fighter types to carrying just receivers, the Lead plane would be the only one in the flight with a transmitter to tell the rest of flight what to do. I do not see this modelled into any part of the game. The only time russian fighters had both Radio transmit and receivers was when they flew lend lease aircraft or much later in the war 1944 onwards i think.

b) During the start of the campaign and certainly right the way up to mid 1942 the German pilots were far superior to their russian counterparts (go read black cross red star vol II) for example JG 54 flew 600 sorties throughout January 1942 and confirmed 60+ air kills for the loss of a single 109 of which the pilot bailed out.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 08:56 AM
Ok so every damn day now theres some new person talking about realism, well today its me and just a few points that i feel to be corrected in the patch.

a) Russian built aircraft very rarely had both Radio Transmitters and Receivers, Bombers always had both but due to russian technology and the weight of radios they limited fighter types to carrying just receivers, the Lead plane would be the only one in the flight with a transmitter to tell the rest of flight what to do. I do not see this modelled into any part of the game. The only time russian fighters had both Radio transmit and receivers was when they flew lend lease aircraft or much later in the war 1944 onwards i think.

b) During the start of the campaign and certainly right the way up to mid 1942 the German pilots were far superior to their russian counterparts (go read black cross red star vol II) for example JG 54 flew 600 sorties throughout January 1942 and confirmed 60+ air kills for the loss of a single 109 of which the pilot bailed out.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 10:00 AM
Let's flip it around, Class.

At the end of the war, certainly in the last year, it was hard to find a LW plane left to kill. US planes didn't wear camo because they owned the sky. And the LW pilots had very little training and no experience.

If you read Chuck Yeager's memoirs, you will recall it was not uncommon for him and other Allied pilots to get on the six of a LW fighter and the German pilot bailed out before a shot was ever fired.

Is that in the model?

Gee, how come you forgot about that part?

S!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ttt

tttiger

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 10:15 AM
Another flip: Ilmari Juutilanen describes a very peculiar russian tactic (at least early in the war). Whenever the russian wingleader fired so did the others in the flight, regardless of position. And as soon they saw finnish fighters they all went into a spanish circle. Or that the russian reargunners often tried to hide behind an armourplate instead of firing back. That isnt modeled either /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 10:31 AM
Tell ya what:

I won't use my radio in 1941 if you promise to bail out every time an Allied plane comes within 1,000 meters of you in 1945/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Personally, I favor modelling the taran. AI Russian planes can chew up the tails of German planes with their props as much as they want to, bail out and fly again.

What's an Ilmari?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ttt



tttiger

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."



Message Edited on 07/17/0311:32PM by tttiger

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 12:02 PM
tttiger wrote:
- Tell ya what:
-
- I won't use my radio in 1941 if you promise to bail
- out every time an Allied plane comes within 1,000
- meters of you in 1945.

That's up to the pilot isn't it? I doubt this was a common Luftwaffe tactic. The russian pilot hardly had a choice wether to use the radio or not as there wasn't any./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Personally, I favor modelling the taran. AI Russian
- planes can chew up the tails of German planes with
- their props as much as they want to, bail out and
- fly again.

IIRC, only one pilot survived performing the taran and he was declared a hero, although he got killed on his second attempt. So much for bailing out and fly again.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dorarote6.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 02:43 PM
Well german pilots bailing out at the first sign of danger would make the game very boring (late in the war), thats probably why they did'nt model that in game, but its also very boring to see a squadron of Ace 109 jockeys get taken down a bunch of newby I 16 jocks in campaign mode, thats also very boring

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 02:59 PM
Classic,

You can of course cater the skill levels during the campaign to suit. A little han-draulics can make all the difference to your gameplay. IL2 is just like Flanker 1 and 2 in that simulators coming out of Russia are more like a home cooked meal that you have to prepare yourself. As opposed to say one of the old Jane's titles where its launch > go (the TV dinners of the flight sim world).

With regard to radios, there has to be some compromises for gameplay - the radio is one of them.

Out of interest I asked Oleg some time ago about the radio nav as modelled in the sim. The reply:

This indicator is of the full system RPK-10. Usually this indicator also name as RPK-10.
Wide use begins in 1943 for figters.
For bombers like DB-3F, IL-4, Pe-8, Pe-2, Ar-2, Er-2, SB even before the war.

So the such radio stations were placed in each bomber location airfield.

For fighters - all in PVO (AA defence) has such indicators.

IL-2 - from 1943, but usually only leader's planes (Like in the beginning of the war the situation was with onboard radio stations)

In 1944 all new IL-2s were completed with RPK-10.

By my own research:

South front 1941-43 such stations had 10-40% of airfields

Central front 1941 had all airfields
Central front 1942-43 - about 50-60% of all airfields or special stations (like civil befor the war and which used Germans for navigation of bombers behind the front line for bombing raids. Yes they used Russian stations for naviagtion in that case, as well as Russian bombers used German stations for long range raids )

Central front 1943-45 - all airfields or special stations were equipled with this system.

Why it wasn't present in each fighter?
Simply because onboard receivers (complete system RPK-10) wasn't possible to produce in a great amount. Main manufactures in Ukraine and Riga was damaged or captured.

Question for you - is the UK licence for GE's Groups 1 to 10 and >5700kg like here in Australia?

Cheers, Ham

S T U R M O V I K - T E C H N I K A
http://www.il2center.com/technika/

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 10:19 PM
this game will never be moddeled real enough for some ppl

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 10:37 PM
tttiger wrote:

- What's an Ilmari??


Top scoring Finnish ace maybe?

biography (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace01.htm)


How many times was he hit? (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=46825&messageid=1000708788)


Finnish Air Force remembers him still. (http://ilmavoimat.fi/karlsto/kar_en.pl?s=komentaja_en.htm)


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 11:14 PM
Knock it off you knuckleheads. Now get out there and wash your plane. It's filthy!

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 11:52 PM
tttiger wrote:
- Let's flip it around, Class.
-
- At the end of the war, certainly in the last year,
- it was hard to find a LW plane left to kill. US
- planes didn't wear camo because they owned the sky.
- And the LW pilots had very little training and no
- experience.
------------------------

I remember reading that thet they let them be unpainted because of the small gain in speed 10-15 km/h.
but mostly because of the placebo effect and boost of morale ( I have it in one of my books,somewhere. But at the moment im to ill to search for it. perhaps some one else could shed som light on this matter? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I think some of the english forces tried it too.Afterwards?

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 12:00 AM
If the plane visible has no camoflague, it is American.
If the plane visible has camoflague, it is British.
If the plane is not visible, it is Luftwaffe.

Saying circling German ground troops later in the war according to a rumour. Best taken with a grain of salt, as there was probably a very good reason why Papagei-Staffel had bright red under sides on their planes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 12:20 AM
tttiger wrote:
What's an Ilmari??
--------------------
Yes "little" Finnlands topscoring ace.

His book "Double fighter knight"

Really should be read.Its only late in history that it was ok to releese this kind of material. It wasnt easy for many of the veteran pilots after the war with new sovjetfriendly regim.

Along side england finland was the only counry in europe that wasnt ocupied.Battle of finland is much less studied
than the ones we normally know . But now there is projects in finland that tries to make finnish history more visible.

hopefully it will result in many more books .


IM still a bit stunned about the fact that battle of finland is modeled in FB(that wont happen agin)

and there must be many "Finn whiners" out there who are jumping with joy every day, and veiting for p├┬Ąts.


Here is a link if u are interrested, the best ive found yet and also covers fb and simulation:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 07:19 AM
Classicaero wrote:
- Ok so every damn day now theres some new person
- talking about realism, well today its me and just a
- few points that i feel to be corrected in the patch.
-
- a) Russian built aircraft very rarely had both Radio
- Transmitters and Receivers, Bombers always had both
- but due to russian technology and the weight of
- radios they limited fighter types to carrying just
- receivers, the Lead plane would be the only one in
- the flight with a transmitter to tell the rest of
- flight what to do. I do not see this modelled into
- any part of the game. The only time russian fighters
- had both Radio transmit and receivers was when they
- flew lend lease aircraft or much later in the war
- 1944 onwards i think.
-
- b) During the start of the campaign and certainly
- right the way up to mid 1942 the German pilots were
- far superior to their russian counterparts (go read
- black cross red star vol II) for example JG 54 flew
- 600 sorties throughout January 1942 and confirmed
- 60+ air kills for the loss of a single 109 of which
- the pilot bailed out.
-
This was a questions since the earliest day from release of the original Il-2 and, maybe even before. But, do ask yourself this: will the game be playable if the AI is modelled correctly?



1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 02:44 PM
Classicaero wrote:
- Ok so every damn day now theres some new person
- talking about realism, well today its me and just a
- few points that i feel to be corrected in the patch.
-
- a) Russian built aircraft very rarely had both Radio
- Transmitters and Receivers, Bombers always had both
- but due to russian technology and the weight of
- radios they limited fighter types to carrying just
- receivers, the Lead plane would be the only one in
- the flight with a transmitter to tell the rest of
- flight what to do. I do not see this modelled into
- any part of the game. The only time russian fighters
- had both Radio transmit and receivers was when they
- flew lend lease aircraft or much later in the war
- 1944 onwards i think.
-
- b) During the start of the campaign and certainly
- right the way up to mid 1942 the German pilots were
- far superior to their russian counterparts (go read
- black cross red star vol II) for example JG 54 flew
- 600 sorties throughout January 1942 and confirmed
- 60+ air kills for the loss of a single 109 of which
- the pilot bailed out.

I've found the solution to the above, I usually use german and russian language when flying and since I don't understand a word russian I'm simulating a no-radio aircraft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
And flying the russian side I don't fire my guns until late in the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 05:55 PM
Classicaero has a valid point. This should be modeled somehow expecially in campaign mode. This was one reason for the LW kill ratio. I don't know what could be done for online play, but it should be implemented in offline play definately.

http://www.migman.com/about/pics/MiG-15.jpg


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