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View Full Version : Stealth and Assassin's Creed, and how to make it work.



Clockwork78
08-24-2013, 09:40 PM
I apologize if this thread was made before, but I have to share some of my thoughts on the series' stealth in general, and why it will never be quite as viable, even in the upcoming Black Flag:
Simply put, there are much more convenient approaches. Stealth will never be as viable as combat, until the difficult gets ramped up. Until I feel like sometimes, I need to run away from combat rather than just stay put and fight off the dozens of enemies. Combat can be fun, no doubt. But that does not mean stealth should take the back burner. Stealth needs to evolve, become deeper, while the AI needs to become more intelligent and stronger. It's just hard to find any incentive to do any stealth, when with a press of a button, a whole squad will fall to your feet in their own blood, from your 4 bullets.

ArabianFrost
08-24-2013, 09:41 PM
Hahaha. You remind me of mysekf when I first started.

My first post was also about stealth. I like you.

nomotog
08-24-2013, 10:33 PM
I don't really need any incentive to do stealth. Stealth is fun. Just give me the option to be stealthy and I will jump at it. Also I thought stealth mostly worked in AC?

Clockwork78
08-24-2013, 10:43 PM
Not quite my man, not quite. When you know if things get to the worst of the worst, you can always just slash everything in sight, it removes the tension from stealth, and it's not as viable when you got that many more convenient ways and options around. Also, stealth is not quite as evolved as the rest of the games, I mean, we just finally got the long awaited ability to crouch.

nomotog
08-24-2013, 11:04 PM
Not quite my man, not quite. When you know if things get to the worst of the worst, you can always just slash everything in sight, it removes the tension from stealth, and it's not as viable when you got that many more convenient ways and options around. Also, stealth is not quite as evolved as the rest of the games, I mean, we just finally got the long awaited ability to crouch.

Being able to slash your way out I guess removes some... well all the tension. I never felt tense when I did a stealth assassination, but I am cool with that. It depends on the task a lot of the time, but I find stealth can some times be the quickest way to dispatch a target. Like in the assassination contracts. If your stealthy, you can get it done with a single shot, but if you do open combat, you will have a swarm of guards on top of you. Sure you can kill swarms of guards, but it takes longer then a well timed poison dart and you don't feel as talented. I think the overall stealth is rather evolved, you know you have stealth attacks, distractions, blending, alternative routs, escape tools. It doesn't have couch because it's based around social stealth.

Oh I am also talking about things pre AC3 mostly.

Jexx21
08-24-2013, 11:41 PM
In Deus Ex: Human Revolution, combat was easier than stealth was. Yet Human Revolution is commonly played as a stealth game.

Yea, sorry, I don't agree that combat needs to be harder to promote stealth, because it simply doesn't. My tension is Stealth games results from the "I don't want to get detected because I don't want to get detected" feeling, not the "I don't want to get detected because if I am they'll kill me" feeling.

Also, there is no crouching option. Manual crouching doesn't make sense in an AC game anyway, it's not a part of social stealth. It should be contextual and should happen when we're leaning up against a waist-high object, Heck, even AC3 had this in the Battle of Bunker Hill mission.

Suggest some improvements to stealth besides "make combat harder" because that's not an improvement to stealth, that's an improvement to Combat.

shobhit7777777
08-25-2013, 12:05 AM
In Deus Ex: Human Revolution, combat was easier than stealth was. Yet Human Revolution is commonly played as a stealth game.

Yea, sorry, I don't agree that combat needs to be harder to promote stealth, because it simply doesn't. My tension is Stealth games results from the "I don't want to get detected because I don't want to get detected" feeling, not the "I don't want to get detected because if I am they'll kill me" feeling.

Also, there is no crouching option. Manual crouching doesn't make sense in an AC game anyway, it's not a part of social stealth. It should be contextual and should happen when we're leaning up against a waist-high object, Heck, even AC3 had this in the Battle of Bunker Hill mission.

Suggest some improvements to stealth besides "make combat harder" because that's not an improvement to stealth, that's an improvement to Combat.

I agree with this

Except for the crouching part

For me, stealth is a personal preference....I don't GAF if Ezio can slaughter through 30 guards and doesn't NEED to sneak about...its about a personal preference and a personal statement. While I certainly can slice and dice my way through a game...I like to do things in a more fiendish manner and I feel stealth paves the way for it.

Making combat harder to enforce stealth is not the right way to go because:

1. Not everyone likes stealthing around
2. Assassin's have been master combatants throughout the games...going back on it just seems wrong
3. Its cooler to sneak by when you have the power to obliterate whoever you are sneaking by

Assassin_M
08-25-2013, 12:07 AM
Making combat harder to enforce stealth is not the right way to go because:

1. Not everyone likes stealthing around
2. Assassin's have been master combatants throughout the games...going back on it just seems wrong
3. Its cooler to sneak by when you have the power to obliterate whoever you are sneaking by
This

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 12:13 AM
I'm sorry, but in Deus Ex, both methods are as equally viable. Stealth requires more patience, but in return, you're awarded more XP if you do it right. Combat is more convenient, but you receive less XP for it. It all works out because naturally, a stealthy player would need more augments to counter balance his inability to use the same arsenal of weaponry.
And it's not about making combat impossible, it's about making it as viable as stealth. There would still be options, but you wouldn't be actually handicapping yourself when you go stealthy.

Assassin_M
08-25-2013, 12:14 AM
I'm sorry, but in Deus Ex, both methods are as equally viable. Stealth requires more patience, but in return, you're awarded more XP if you do it right. Combat is more convenient, but you receive less XP for it. It all works out because naturally, a stealthy player would need more augments to counter balance his inability to use the same arsenal of weaponry.
And it's not about making combat impossible, it's about making it as viable as stealth. There would still be options, but you wouldn't be actually handicapping yourself when you go stealthy.
But nothing is harder than the other...combat and stealth are equally applicable...

Jexx21
08-25-2013, 12:18 AM
A game like Assassin's Creed shouldn't support one playstyle over the other, at least not too much.

Some of the assassination contracts give you more money if you don't get detected before you take out the target. Although, even that isn't a pure-stealth requirement, because that also means that your assassination can be flashy (air assassinations, headshot kills, etc.).

ACfan443
08-25-2013, 12:19 AM
Making combat harder to enforce stealth is not the right way to go because:

1. Not everyone likes stealthing around
2. Assassin's have been master combatants throughout the games...going back on it just seems wrong
3. Its cooler to sneak by when you have the power to obliterate whoever you are sneaking by

Slightly off topic, but I'd like it to be more challenging though, it's been watered down so much since AC1 that now it's as little as holding down a button before pressing another

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 12:21 AM
Not really, M. Slashing and hacking away at people is always more convenient and easier than trying to avoid detection, partially because the stealth mechanics are fairly very simplistic, and because there is almost no challenge to combat.

Jexx21
08-25-2013, 12:22 AM
there's almost no challenge in stealth either though.

itsamea-mario
08-25-2013, 12:22 AM
Hahaha. You remind me of mysekf when I first started.

My first post was also about stealth. I like you.

You fool, you damn blind fool!

Assassin_M
08-25-2013, 12:23 AM
Not really, M. Slashing and hacking away at people is always more convenient and easier than trying to avoid detection, partially because the stealth mechanics are fairly very simplistic, and because there is almost no challenge to combat.
Which is exactly what I just said...if combat NEEDS to be harder for stealth to actually be viable, we`re basically killing a playstyle...both combat and stealth have little to no challenge, although Stealth always has the tension edge

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 12:25 AM
By amping up the challenge, you aren't quite killing combat, no. They're just both equally as viable, then. Of course, stealth would need to evolve and we'd need things like better AI, to counter act things.

Assassin_M
08-25-2013, 12:26 AM
By amping up the challenge, you aren't quite killing combat, no. They're just both equally as viable, then. Of course, stealth would need to evolve and we'd need things like better AI, to counter act things.
If you put it that way then, I want combat challenging, but it should be just as viable as stealth. It shouldn't be like Thief for example..

Jexx21
08-25-2013, 12:28 AM
stealth may even be easier than combat is because it takes less time. :/

at least, for me it always did.

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 12:29 AM
If you put it that way then, I want combat challenging, but it should be just as viable as stealth. It shouldn't be like Thief for example..
I agree. Both need to be equally viable for stealth to ever have any real weight behind it.
Jexx@ not quite. Trying to stay undetected is harder than just fighting everything, mostly because AC's combat became a matter of holding a button down.

ACfan443
08-25-2013, 12:30 AM
You fool, you damn blind fool!

This is so entertaining.

ctuagent15
08-25-2013, 12:41 AM
I've got a serious case of deja vu with this thread, I'm sure Jexx has used Deus ex before as an example about stealth and someone used the some counter argument, but I have to say I do agree with Jexx about stealth.
I play stealthy in an AC game because I want to challenge myself not because the combat is to hard to play any other way and it looks that black flag is giving us more opportunity's to use stealth, its also giving us a reason to use stealth more with more money rewarded for doing the assassination missions stealthily

Farlander1991
08-25-2013, 12:42 AM
I've got a serious case of deja vu with this thread, I'm sure Jaxx has used Deus ex before as an example about stealth and someone used the some counter argument, but I have to say I do agree with Jaxx about stealth.

It was pirate1802 and me :D

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 12:47 AM
It's not just that as much as the stealth itself kind of being dry when it comes to tension. They tried to find a way around that with the mission constraints, and it actually worked to some degree *examples being the mission with the Castelio, I believe it was?* but even then, many people outright ignored them. If the player knows if it all goes down, he has an easy way out, it removes part of the immersion in a stealth based playstyle.

nomotog
08-25-2013, 12:50 AM
there's almost no challenge in stealth either though.

Lack of challenge has been AC's most persistent problem. I also don't see that changing any time soon.

ctuagent15
08-25-2013, 12:52 AM
It was pirate1802 and me :D
Oh sorry I just remember it being used before and because it looked like it was the same word for word I figured it was Jexx that used it before

plentybeef
08-25-2013, 05:01 AM
If one wants stealth, one would only have to turn to hit man blood money and absolution. These are both great examples of combat and stealth

Edit- hit man absolution looked next gen. And I know this forum is for Ac games but crouching made less noise then running or walking fast in "Absolution" who has played Hit Man Absolution?

Edit-


walking while crouched actually makes more noise because when you're crouched your mass is closer together which means a larger force is being made when you walk which results in more noise.

Absolution also didn't look next-gen.

All you have to do is move the left stick slower. But as for hitman absolution you can do the same thing. And it come with a run button but I'm not sure if it measure pressure. This is the implement of the next gen. More sensitive buttons. As for the graphics of Hit Man Absolution. They look close to next gen in cut scenes(basically movie shorts) even the actual game play look close to the real as electronics would allow and this game seems old to me. But that's just me I've seen other games that seen near to next gen graphics. Take Desmond for example in Ac2 he looked fat and out of shape but in the fist he was thin and a little taller. But Ac had a better looking Desmond than Ac 2 and when I seen that I asked in horror could I have seen some next gen graphics, jokingly of course.

@pirate1802- there are more options for stealth. You just have to find them. Like one of the forts in New York that is in the top right of the map, there is a opening in the left side of the fort. That would make it on the right side of the screen when you look at the front. Then you should find two options sabatoge the gun powder or kill the for captain. Killing the fort capitan is by far more interesting

Jexx21
08-25-2013, 05:54 AM
walking while crouched actually makes more noise because when you're crouched your mass is closer together which means a larger force is being made when you walk which results in more noise.

Absolution also didn't look next-gen.

pirate1802
08-25-2013, 06:01 AM
Make stealth more viable by making it more fun, giving us more stealth options, "playgrounds" where it can be applied, allow us to discover hidden ways to complete the missions. Oh the joy when you would discover a hidden entrance to a building in DX:HR and bypass an entire army of guards. Gunning them down would be just as easy if not easier, but I still go the stealth route in that game (except that one time when I was roleplaying as a deranged Jensen and made a point of shooting everyone and their mothers and their dogs) because stealth is so damn fun and much more satisfying. Not because I think oh snap I'll die if I get detected!

Also as people said above, AC is about freedom and you should have it. In a game about freedom of choice, forced stealth is just as bad as forced combat.

roostersrule2
08-25-2013, 06:05 AM
Just give us an objection, we'll make our own stealth.

fightinTXaggie
08-25-2013, 06:17 AM
The problem as I see it is easily solved with adjustable difficulty. As it is, the game is "watered down" so it is not impossible for people who are new to the series. I need the game to be harder (as a 22 year old, experienced gamer who has played a couple AC games before) than my little cousin would (an 11 year old who hasn't had anything bigger than a handheld, who would be completely lost).

If there's an option to set it to easy for him and hard to me, or ideally both a combat and stealth/detection difficulty setting, the game can flow and be a fun experience for both the people that want the pretty environments and story as well as the people who want a challenging game experience.

Rickin10
08-25-2013, 10:40 AM
As much as I'd love to see stealth improve, Ubisoft simply have no reason to implement it. Why put time and effort into programming complex AI and smart level design when the vast majority of players don't give a ****. The mass market loves lots of action and explosions while stealth is boring and slow.

Aphex_Tim
08-25-2013, 10:56 AM
For me it's usually a sense of morality; even though it's a video game and the enemies are not real.
It rarely feels right to me to slaughter thirty or so soldiers simply to get to one target. I much prefer a stealthy and non-lethal approach.
It's also a reason for me to run away when guards become hostile, instead of simply killing them all.

So indeed, it's all personal preference!

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 11:03 AM
For the person that said make stealth more rewarding@ that's also a very viable approach. And don't just give binary reasons like money, money means little in AC because of how easy it is to gain it. Give us things like secret items, hidden paths, all kinds of rewarding thing.

D.I.D.
08-25-2013, 11:13 AM
I think making combat harder is part of it, but a bigger one is AI. I forget who it was that did all the intensive testing of the AI in AC3 to reveal how it works, but thanks to them we know that the AI was making some big reactions that were not reliant upon a simulation of hearing nor on line-of-sight.

We've become quite spoiled in production quality. We used to take it as read that a sandbox game could not look as good as its linear FPS competitors, but now we expect the sandbox world to look just as good because the programmers have become so clever at squeezing more from the systems. By the same token, I'm sure the team knows it needs to improve the AI, but to some extent their hands are tied. Really good AI consumes a lot of processing power, and the next gen will allow for an explosion in better AI and physics. However, it's not enough for the next gen to arrive; we need the current gen to die, too.

ze_topazio
08-25-2013, 01:21 PM
The problem as I see it is easily solved with adjustable difficulty. As it is, the game is "watered down" so it is not impossible for people who are new to the series. I need the game to be harder (as a 22 year old, experienced gamer who has played a couple AC games before) than my little cousin would (an 11 year old who hasn't had anything bigger than a handheld, who would be completely lost).

If there's an option to set it to easy for him and hard to me, or ideally both a combat and stealth/detection difficulty setting, the game can flow and be a fun experience for both the people that want the pretty environments and story as well as the people who want a challenging game experience.

Your 11 year old cousin shouldn't be playing this games, in the box says for ages 18 and above. :rolleyes::cool:

Anyway your cousin would just have to adapt, in the 8, 16 and to a certain extent 32/64 bit generations when games were marketed mostly as being entertainment for kids, most games were hard as a sin, yet kids had no problem playing them.

Hans684
08-25-2013, 04:28 PM
All we need is to be able go full Hitman with clothes, then we have a form of stealth that works better instead of forcing "Splinter Cell stealth" little by little in each new game.

Clockwork78
08-25-2013, 05:46 PM
Yeah, kids just adjust really. They shouldn't be playing it either, as Ze said. Too complex? get a game that matches his age group.

fightinTXaggie
08-25-2013, 07:31 PM
Yeah, kids just adjust really. They shouldn't be playing it either, as Ze said. Too complex? get a game that matches his age group.

I was just trying to put out an example. The only games we ever let him play are Halo split screen with us (his parents are fine with it) or Burnout. My point is that the option to make it a challenging game for those who want it or to make it an easy game for those that want to live the scenery/story would be the best option, as it allows both sides to have what they want.

I personally haven't had any gripes with any of the actual gameplay, even though it is easy. My only gripe I've ever had with the series was what seemed a lack of content in a huge world and random constraints in AC3. Allowing difficulty adjustments lets me play that, while allowing you to play your challenging game at the same time.

David2010549
08-25-2013, 08:55 PM
I think making combat harder is part of it, but a bigger one is AI. I forget who it was that did all the intensive testing of the AI in AC3 to reveal how it works, but thanks to them we know that the AI was making some big reactions that were not reliant upon a simulation of hearing nor on line-of-sight. .

Was it me? This was my thread: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/774486-Assassin-s-Creed-III-A-Complete-Guide-to-Fort-AI-Mechanics

I don't mean to self-promote (though I think people should watch my video in that thread), I'm curious if anyone else is doing this.

Sigv4rd
08-25-2013, 09:36 PM
I'm more concerned about social stealth than anything...

plentybeef
08-25-2013, 11:16 PM
The problem as I see it is easily solved with adjustable difficulty. As it is, the game is "watered down" so it is not impossible for people who are new to the series. I need the game to be harder (as a 22 year old, experienced gamer who has played a couple AC games before) than my little cousin would (an 11 year old who hasn't had anything bigger than a handheld, who would be completely lost).

If there's an option to set it to easy for him and hard to me, or ideally both a combat and stealth/detection difficulty setting, the game can flow and be a fun experience for both the people that want the pretty environments and story as well as the people who want a challenging game experience.

Have you played Hit man Absolution. It has the same things even each difficulty makes the enemy's react faster and have different movements, like different routes

Edit- When I was 7 I used to watch my older brother play resident evil. I never knew how to play it but it was scary to me at that young age. But I can see why you let your cousin play games with you. I was a big fan of Tekken 3. Best ps game for life, along with tenchu(ps). Speaking of, I'll have to invest in that game too.

plentybeef
08-25-2013, 11:20 PM
Your 11 year old cousin shouldn't be playing this games, in the box says for ages 18 and above. :rolleyes::cool:

Anyway your cousin would just have to adapt, in the 8, 16 and to a certain extent 32/64 bit generations when games were marketed mostly as being entertainment for kids, most games were hard as a sin, yet kids had no problem playing them.

You must be talking about super ghouls and goblins. That was hard as F***. I was 5 and I first played and I'm now 22 and I still haven't passed that stupid game.

D.I.D.
08-25-2013, 11:56 PM
Was it me? This was my thread: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/774486-Assassin-s-Creed-III-A-Complete-Guide-to-Fort-AI-Mechanics

I don't mean to self-promote (though I think people should watch my video in that thread), I'm curious if anyone else is doing this.

Ah yes, I think it was! Well done, you :)

fightinTXaggie
08-26-2013, 12:18 AM
Have you played Hit man Absolution. It has the same things even each difficulty makes the enemy's react faster and have different movements, like different routes

Never have. Not a big fan of pure stealth games. I play about 80% of Assassin's Creed as a hack and slash when I have the chance. But that's all personal preference.

plentybeef
08-26-2013, 03:17 AM
I know what you mean @fightinTXaggie. I sometimes get the Jagger's after me but its really hard to walk around without getting into a fight. Hit man reminded me of The Ac series. And it's just not full stealth, you can rampage around too.

ToughGuy31
08-26-2013, 06:02 AM
I personally think stealth should be a option. I get that ubi wants to show off their flashy combat, but it just leads to a lot of inconsistency. It just doesn't fit with some of these characters, one mission Connor is calling himself a one man army, the next, he's afraid to get caught by 3 or 4 guards. It's a little weird, and I think stealth could add a layer of depth to the characters, like if Connor would rather not take a life, but would if he had to. It just doesn't make sense to not have stealth as a option.

SixKeys
08-26-2013, 05:12 PM
I know what you mean @fightinTXaggie. I sometimes get the Jagger's after me

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/7460839/Mick+Jagger+mickjaggerpicture2.jpg ?

plentybeef
08-27-2013, 01:12 PM
I personally think stealth should be a option. I get that ubi wants to show off their flashy combat, but it just leads to a lot of inconsistency. It just doesn't fit with some of these characters, one mission Connor is calling himself a one man army, the next, he's afraid to get caught by 3 or 4 guards. It's a little weird, and I think stealth could add a layer of depth to the characters, like if Connor would rather not take a life, but would if he had to. It just doesn't make sense to not have stealth as a option.

But that's the option from the beginning. If you can't see it that's not really ubisoft fault. What they had in the first ac was information that you had to steal or beat up to receive and thus telling you some kind of stealth option and this is what I want back because you could check it with the map. There were no constraint, someone please, feel free to correct me on this. I also felt a fluid of motion as I'd return back to the assassin den and get ready for the assassination. But stealth is always an option and some of the worlds created around that style is supposed to be carried out creatively making a personal impact on the player as he or she find that specific path the sums up a perfect stealth kill. And that be whether a target or a lone guard. I personally would wait and draw a guard to the hay bails and kill from there and the tall brushes.

As for Ac4, we have some really green foliage. This is akin to the hay bails or wells to hind in. Are there wells in Ac4 I can only wonder?

plentybeef
08-27-2013, 01:13 PM
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/7460839/Mick+Jagger+mickjaggerpicture2.jpg ?

They often point like that as well. I would like this picture on a shirt as well. Extra large by chance, if you may.