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Timex62
02-17-2004, 07:32 AM
It was my honor and privaledge to care for one of the first Tuskeegee airmen last night. Due to reasons of confidentiality I can not give out any personal information but I can act as a go between if you would like to contact him. One thing I can say is he told me he flew 73 combat missions and downed "about 14 a/c". He loves to talk about his service and I think he would be a great resource. Please let me know how he may contact you and I will also relay any questions you may have to him.

Close to the Edge

Timex62
02-17-2004, 07:32 AM
It was my honor and privaledge to care for one of the first Tuskeegee airmen last night. Due to reasons of confidentiality I can not give out any personal information but I can act as a go between if you would like to contact him. One thing I can say is he told me he flew 73 combat missions and downed "about 14 a/c". He loves to talk about his service and I think he would be a great resource. Please let me know how he may contact you and I will also relay any questions you may have to him.

Close to the Edge

SuspectSquirrel
02-17-2004, 07:43 AM
Wow this is cool, where are you Bearcat!



Thank you,
Mr. Squirrel

Rajvosa
02-17-2004, 07:48 AM
About 14 kills? No Tuskegee aviator scored that many kills. Or am I wrong? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
That would certainly make him one of the better known American pilots.

http://stu.wccnet.org/~ecrnovrs/inp150/finalp/sarajevo1/images/sarajevo.jpg

T_O_A_D
02-17-2004, 08:04 AM
Not 14 kills officially, I think is correct. He may beleive or know of 14 but was only able to confirm less.
I made an edit I ment not 14 kills sorry Correct Lee Archer has the highest confirmed kills. Lee can probably think of more he thought he got too but wasn't able to confirm.
I just watched the movie and the interview with lee on History channel. Last week.

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[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Tue February 17 2004 at 07:28 AM.]

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Tue February 17 2004 at 07:30 AM.]

Zyzbot
02-17-2004, 08:17 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
No 14 kills officially I think is correct. He may beleive or know of 14 but was only able to confirm less.


___________________________________________

Check this link. It lists aces by country and lists their kills. Should be easy to find him on this list:

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html

Zyzbot
02-17-2004, 08:20 AM
here is another link specific to the Tuskegee airmen and lists their kills:


http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_tusk.html

Rajvosa
02-17-2004, 08:25 AM
Top scoring pilot- Lee Archer 4,5 kills. He got his 5th kill confirmed eventually, long after the war. Very nice treatment, huh?

Anyway, this guy that claims 14 kills is, well, probably a wee bit confused.

http://stu.wccnet.org/~ecrnovrs/inp150/finalp/sarajevo1/images/sarajevo.jpg

Bearcat99
02-17-2004, 08:30 AM
The Tuskegee Airmen got more kills than they were given credit for. Dont forget this was America in the 40s. Black men were still being hung,castrated,shot, burned at the stake in this country..... with impunity and basically no recourse I might add. It was bad. Thats why I can say with a great deal of pride that even though we have a way to go still...as a nation we have come a h@ll of a lot closer to the ideals that we espoused so eloquently in our founding documents.
Many TA kill claims were rejected for various reasons....whatever was good at the moment. The only one who actually got past that and became an "official" Ace from the 332nd FG was Lee Archer of the 302nd FS. But I can gaurantee you that there were many many more. An ace is what...5 kills...and towards the end they were counting ground targets too??!! Yeah....... more than one ace came out of the 332nd..think about it. Plus you must remember...many TA went on to fly in Korea and Vietnam. Chappie James, I think Spanky Roberts stayed in too, in fact his daughter is a news anchor in New York I think... for FOX I believe...LOL...shes a cutie too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. I know Lee Archer served after the war and several others. Thier contribution to this country didnt end at the end of WW2 and in many cases still echos down today in succeeding generations.
See guys this is why I sometimes get so..... maybe some would say oversensitive about things of a racial nature..it isnt hostility but I am just sensitive to it because everyday there are reminders...and as a nation and as a world we HAVE to be aware ...else how can we change things? I remember how it was when I was a kid and I remember the hushed, somber stories of how it was before that...which wasnt very long ago. The Tuskegee Aiormen's contributions should have been common knowlege in American history...like The Black Sheep, or The Wolfpack, or Doolittles Raiders or The Memphis Belle..... but it took a few disgruntled vets who realized they were dieing out and only they and thiers were AWARE...and a HBO movie to bring what should have been common knowlege to the forfront of our imaginations. And it shouldnt be saved for February either.....this is something that all Americans should be proud of and for warbird enthusaists... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Hey man... I have no love for Nazi ideology...... but Bubi,Rall Gerd,Kittel.... were GREAT pilots!!! Willi Messerschmitt was a great engineer!!! Kurt Tank??!!! A frickin GENIUS man!!!! I can acknowlege that in its place because I love this stuff..... Thank God it is HISTORY and not current events.
Thanks Timex
Thanks Timex... Check your PT.

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[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Tue February 17 2004 at 07:47 AM.]

SUPERAEREO
02-17-2004, 09:01 AM
Hear, hear Gentlemen!!!

Nice post Bearcat, the voice of the heart and the voice of reason working together as usual.

I salute you!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Rajvosa
02-17-2004, 09:06 AM
Thumbs up for the Bear-man! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://stu.wccnet.org/~ecrnovrs/inp150/finalp/sarajevo1/images/sarajevo.jpg

Airhead_777_AVG
02-17-2004, 09:34 AM
If the man said he got 14 kills...he got 14 kills. He's an American hero in my book and we all owe him more than we could ever possibly repay. At the VERY least we owe him the benefit of the doubt. Nice post Bear...keep beating that drum!

http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig03.gif

Franzen
02-17-2004, 10:07 AM
You know, I often wondered how the kills were counted and confirmed. Honestly I can imagine a system in that time, with that technology, that could monitor such things. He claims 14 and I would give him the benefit of the doubt. For the service he has made to his country, for his beliefs, and even for people(not all) that condemned him for his race, I don't think any living man or woman has the right to question his claims. Besides, it's not like he said 400 or something like that. Please give this man the repect he deserves and honour him as a true hero. BTW, this was directed at no one and I'm not critisizing anyone. We just need a little perspective sometimes.
Bearcat, thanks for your thoughts. This is the kind of thing we sometimes need to make a safe landing, a little heart and soul. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

jung0l
02-17-2004, 10:40 AM
excellant post, as usual, Bearcat...couldn't have said it any better brah.

(4 step pound)
S!

heywooood
02-17-2004, 10:54 AM
Love the 99th. More truth in our free society
is needed. I live in San Diego and so have spent many hours in the Air & Space museum here.
It has many excellent displays - one of which is a small display case with 5 or 6 P51 mustang
models in 1/48 scale with red noses and tails
with assorted pilot artifacts etc..The models were built by surviving members of the 99th.
My son recently worked up a report for his high school history class - The subject Benjamin O. Davis. An extaordinary American.
So are all citizens willing to put themselves
in harms way for the sake of their Nation and their way of life. But more so for these men who felt so strongly about their country,their
duty, and their honor - but wondered "how does my country feel about me?" I love the courage of those men and I hope someday the truth will be known and the proper credit given as it is most deserved.

99th Obsidian
02-17-2004, 11:04 AM
History is what makes FB more than a sim or game. It creates a positive feedback loop. Watch a story on History Channel or a WWII movie, read a book, create a similar mission in FB. I'm reading McGee's autobiography now and it really makes me appreciate their sacrifice. The TA pioneers help pave the way so I could persue a non-traditional career that affords me the hardware and software to persue simming as a pastime. I have a much greater appreciation of my Fathers and Uncles role in the War. Life is short, wish I had shared my interest in FB with my Uncle before he died. He was a P-40 pilot. Sure FB-&gt;History-&gt;Personal/family enlightenment may be a bit of a stretch but its about whatever motivates you. Glad to be a "virtual" Tuskegee Airmen.

http://www.geocities.com/ken_holbert/tuskegee_airmen.html

http://www.geocities.com/ken_holbert/obsidian99thsig.jpg

Curly_109
02-17-2004, 02:31 PM
In my opinion, even a one confirmed (1!) kill is good for figher pilot (for real) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif... especcialy if not vs. bomber or similar cargo A/C.
Always wonder how the german pilots scored so much (I mean over 100!!! --some of them,over 200 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif... well you know it's not comparable to any other allied fighter pilots--), obviusly it's not because they are "über", not because they have better planez, but how?
Maybe better education, discipline... it's real mystery for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

tenmmike
02-17-2004, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Curly_109:
In my opinion, even a one confirmed (1!) kill is good for figher pilot (for real) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif... especcialy if not vs. bomber or similar cargo A/C.
Always wonder how the german pilots scored so much (I mean over 100!!! --some of them,over 200 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif... well you know it's not comparable to any other allied fighter pilots--), obviusly it's not because they are "über", not because they have better planez, but how?
Maybe better education, discipline... it's real mystery for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> pretty well traind and some were lead by some great pilots/leaders who kinew how to break ther new guys in ..there is a reason jg-52 had so many great pilots ..plus they flew tell they died (mostly)....lets hope BEARCAT can report more to us if he gets to talk to the man

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_50cal.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

Korolov
02-17-2004, 02:44 PM
I think in the case of the LW experten, its the fact most of them got their kills on the east front against inexperienced VVS pilots. Look at how few 100+ kill aces were on the west front, for example.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

tenmmike
02-17-2004, 02:47 PM
lets not hijack this thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_50cal.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

woofiedog
02-17-2004, 03:07 PM
A chance of a life time. I'll be waiting to read the outcome of your visit. Have a great time. Good Luck! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tsisqua
02-17-2004, 03:47 PM
~S~ Bearcat! I couldn't be happier for ya, you are probably going to have some stories for us. Also, after reading your post, I hope that everyone is paying attention to the fact that you seem to love your country as much as anyone else that lives here. That's difficult for people to understand that live outside the US, how guys like you and I could be patriots. It all goes back to those documents that you refered to: that the founding fathers of the US drew up so long ago . . . Though we are not quite there yet, you are correct; We are certainly closer than we were when I was a kid, as peaceful demonstrators were killed and families brutalized.

I am proud of the African Americans that showed the entire nation what true courage really is. These pilots flew into the face of danger, knowing full well that there would be no glory, no big parades, and seldom would they be recognized for the heroism that was required to do the job. They simply were defending their homeland, and those documents that were the hope of a better day for us all.

SALUTE!

Tsisqua

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Galvladi

NTESLA
02-17-2004, 05:22 PM
This is a good example to teach all of us, American, European, Asian, Australian, African...we are all human beings. I sometimes feel that tragedy is only for a select few, no, it is a tragedy to our species... we live all on this tiny dot in a vast universe...think of that, all that we have known and admired or hated lived on this tiny piece of rock. When things like abuse, brutality, hatred, etc. happen we should all contribute to educate others and move forward as a species for the benefit for all those who live on this tiny blue dot.

We all gain from what we can gather from this fine hero and gentleman.

http://fluxout.homestead.com/files/Thx-32x.jpg

"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

Bearcat99
02-17-2004, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tenmmike:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Curly_109:
In my opinion, even a one confirmed (1!) kill is good for figher pilot (for real) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif... especcialy if not vs. bomber or similar cargo A/C.
Always wonder how the german pilots scored so much (I mean over 100!!! --some of them,over 200 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif... well you know it's not comparable to any other allied fighter pilots--), obviusly it's not because they are "über", not because they have better planez, but how?
Maybe better education, discipline... it's real mystery for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> pretty well traind and some were lead by some great pilots/leaders who kinew how to break ther new guys in ..there is a reason jg-52 had so many great pilots ..plus they flew tell they died (mostly)....lets hope BEARCAT can report more to us if he gets to talk to the man

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_50cal.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am reading a book on JG-52 now.... a good read... I just hve so many books on my plate its easy to gert side tracked.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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Franzen
02-18-2004, 10:06 AM
Let's not forget, by the time the American pilots had entered the war the Luftwaffe pilots had already been flying for a long time and against inexperienced pilots. The numbers are bound to add up if you survived 7 years as a fighter pilot.

Fritz Franzen

Copperhead310th
02-18-2004, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
You know, I often wondered how the kills were counted and confirmed. Honestly I can imagine a system in that time, with that technology, that could monitor such things. He claims 14 and I would give him the benefit of the doubt. For the service he has made to his country, for his beliefs, and even for people(not all) that condemned him for his race, I don't think any living man or woman has the right to question his claims. Besides, it's not like he said 400 or something like that. Please give this man the repect he deserves and honour him as a true hero. BTW, this was directed at no one and I'm not critisizing anyone. We just need a little perspective sometimes.
Bearcat, thanks for your thoughts. This is the kind of thing we sometimes need to make a safe landing, a little heart and soul. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FYI for Fritz

USAAF World War II Aerial Victory Credits

Individual fighter pilots in single-seat aircraft earned almost all of the World War II aerial victory credits that were awarded during World War II. When two or more of its fighter pilots shared an aerial victory, the U.S. Army Air Forces (USAAF) usually divided credit among them in accordance with the British system in World War I. For example, if two fighter pilots destroyed an enemy aircraft, each of them earned half a credit (.50). There was an exception. Each member of a night fighter crew earned one full credit for each enemy aircraft his crew destroyed. Thus, two or three credits were sometimes recorded for the destruction of a single enemy airplane, and an accurate number of aircraft destroyed cannot be obtained by simply adding victory credits.
Gunners on bombers such as B-17 Flying Fortresses and B-24 Liberators destroyed enormous numbers of enemy aircraft, but the Army Air Forces quickly abandoned the attempt to systematically award aerial victory credits to them. The average bomber had ten machine guns and six gunnery positions, and the average bomber formation contained many aircraft. If a formation shot down an enemy airplane, witnesses could not determine exactly which bomber, much less which gunner, destroyed the airplane.


Because no single list of USAAF victory credits could be prepared during or at the end of World War II, many different lists, each compiled according to rules adopted in a theater or by a numbered air force, remained after the fighting ended. Air Force historians later integrated these victory records into a single list following a carefully prepared set of criteria. The United States Air Force (USAF) counted World War II aerial victory credits only for USAAF flyers, or Allied aviators who belonged to USAAF units. The action had to occur between December 7, 1941 and September 2, 1945. Only fighter pilots or members of night fighter crews were eligible. The enemy aircraft had to be airborne, heavier than air, manned, and armed. Destruction involved shooting an enemy aircraft down, causing the pilot to bail out, intentionally ramming the airplane to make it crash, or maneuvering it into the ground or water. If the enemy airplane landed, despite its degree of damage, it was not counted as destroyed.


An eyewitness in another aircraft or gun camera film confirmed aerial victory credit claims. USAAF officials then awarded credit, usually through the issuance of numbered air force general orders. An aerial victory credit board, of which there were several during the war, also documented credits. In 1957, the Department of the Air Force assigned responsibility for verifying aerial victory credits, including those of World War II, to the USAF Historical Division, predecessor of the Air Force Historical Research Agency.


During compilation of the World War II listing, historians prepared data cards for each aerial victory. Each card identified the individual who contributed to the victory, his serial number, his unit, the theater, the credit fraction or number, and the date of the credit. The cards listed documentary sources and sometimes the names of the other pilots who shared the victory. From these cards, the historians produced a series of computer printouts, and checked them against other sources, such as files from the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis.
A few victory credits board reports are lost. For example, XIX Tactical Air Command Victory Credits Board Report Numbers 71, 79, 80, and 81 have not been located, although references to them exist. Discovery of these missing reports might confirm some claims that by established standards could not be counted in this listing.


Each line of the World War II list contains the following information: name, rank, serial number, service, unit, theater, number of credits, and date. Abbreviations for the categories are:
Rank: FO, flight officer; 2LT, second lieutenant; 1LT, first lieutenant; CPT, captain; MAJ, major; LTC, lieutenant colonel; COL, colonel.
Service: AAF, Army Air Forces; PHIL, Philippine Air Force; RCAF, Royal Canadian Air Force; CAF, Chinese Air Force; POL, Polish Air Force.
Unit: AF, Air Force; AIR DV, Air Division; BMR DV, Bombardment Division; BMR SQ, Bombardment Squadron; CDO SQ, Commando Squadron; CDO GP, Commando Group; FPR SQ, Fighter Squadron (Provisional); FTR CM, Fighter Command; FTR GP, Fighter Group; FTR SQ, Fighter Squadron; FTR WG, Fighter Wing; NFR SQ, Night Fighter Squadron; PRN SQ, Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron; PRV GP, Provisional Group; PRV SQ, Provisional Squadron; PUR SQ, Pursuit Squadron; RCN SQ, Reconnaissance Squadron; TRN SQ, Training Squadron; WRN SQ, Weather Reconnaissance Squadron. On May 15, 1942, the Army Air Forces redesignated virtually all of its pursuit units as fighter units. In this list, all pursuit squadrons are listed as fighter squadrons with the exception of the 3d Pursuit Squadron, which for a time coexisted with the 3d Fighter Squadron.
Theater: AL, Alaska; CBI, China-Burma-India; CP, Central Pacific; ETO, European Theater of Operations; ICE, Iceland; MTO, Mediterranean Theater of Operations; SWP, Southwest Pacific.


All Seventh Air Force credits are designated as "Central Pacific" theater although some Seventh Air Force activities took place in the Western Pacific. All Fifth and Thirteenth Air Force credits are designated as "Southwest Pacific" theater, although some of the operations of these air forces took place in the South Pacific.


The Army Air Forces awarded close to 15,800 aerial victory credits during World War II. Approximately 690 American pilots scored at least 5 aerial victory credits during the war.

Source: USAF Historical Reaseach Agency
Maxwell AFB, Montgomery, Alabama

As far as for the technical ability thier where gun cameras in a good deal of US fighters from 1943 on. Not sure if i'm right there on the year but it was about mid war i think.

One last thing.
These numbers are for the US Army Air forces. & does not include numbers for the US Navy Pilots.

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron)

dugong
02-28-2004, 01:04 PM
Regarding Lee Archer -

From Wings of Fame The Journal of Modern Air Combat, Volume 1, pg. 74:

".......The men of the 332nd FG demonstrated again and again that being black was no impediment to being a fighter pilot. To a degree, the top brass knew the Med as an area of secondary importance - in the tenor of the times, a reason for stationing the Negro combat group there. At times, black P-51 pilots battled discrimination and the Third Reich at the same time: top-scoring pilot Lee Archer had his fifth kill snatched away so as not to be recognized, at the time, as an ace."

So, I guess that unfortunately reflected the times. At least he got his kill. Thanks for so much Mr. Archer!

Sorry for any typos - crying baby right here . . . .

p1ngu666
02-28-2004, 01:53 PM
bit sad. i like what they achived, because alot of ppl where against em.
&lt;?&gt;lose many bombers? &lt;tuskegee&gt; none http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.
&lt;?&gt;thatll be me being owned
&lt;tuskegee&gt;yet again i belive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

also they proved racism is wrong... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg