PDA

View Full Version : Should we have more enemies that use tools in combat?



SixKeys
06-09-2013, 04:11 PM
One way to make combat even a tad more challenging would be if there were enemies that are able to use certain tools just like the assassin. In ACR you had guards that could throw bombs at you. Supposedly the grenadiers in AC3 do this too, but I can honestly say I don't remember encountering such an occurrence even once in my AC3 playthroughs. I think the guards that do this do it much less frequently than in ACR.

Enemies should be able to use smoke bombs and regular bombs. Getting caught in a smoke bomb would have the same effect on the assassin as it does on the guards: you're stuck coughing for a few seconds, during which time you are vulnerable to attacks. Regular bombs should take away a bigger chunk of your health than they currently do, to pose a legitimate concern. Some elite enemies could even use tools like the rope dart, throwing knives or poison. You would have to watch their movements carefully (similar to the firing lines or captains with pistols) to anticipate what their next move is going to be.

For example you would see a guard reaching for a blowpipe from his belt, loading it with poison darts, lifting the pipe to his lips and getting ready to fire. You would have to kill him before he could fire the dart at you. If you did get poisoned, you wouldn't die instantly, but the screen would get a blurry effect like in one of the Boston Brawlers missions, making the rest of the fight more challenging. Only after beating all enemies you would be cured of the effect (maybe you'd have to loot their bodies for an antidote).

Thoughts?

Megas_Doux
06-09-2013, 04:23 PM
I agree with you 1000000000000%!!!!

But the truth is that most AC fanbase is utter ridiculous, I still remember many people complaining about "how hard" is to complete some of the ac2´s tombs, the infamous Hotaku article of how "impossible" is to chase lee, the "bad decision" of removing medicines in AC3 and, ANDDDDDDDD "AC3 GUARDS ARE ALWAYS CHASING ME"


Hard to please everyone.....

stingray110
06-09-2013, 04:25 PM
I like this idea. Combat is far too easy and it would be great to actually have a challenge since we haven't faced one since the first game with only the Crusaders being mildly challenging. I also think it would be interesting if enemies could disarm you or use traps by decieving you. For example in the frontier they could pretend to run away but have someone crouching ontop of a branch ready to throw a rope dart which pulls you up. You then proceed to use your bow, pistol and hidden blade to get out of the situation. Just an idea.

Shahkulu101
06-09-2013, 04:27 PM
Sounds a good idea. It can add challenge and perhaps...*gasp* the possibility to die. One problem though, Ubi never have been good at AI when it comes to AC so we could encounter some problems. We may be bombarded with objects coming at all angles, getting rope darted and hit with bombs simutaneously and what not, which would be a bit of a pain. If pulled of correctly though, yes I like your conceot.

Hans684
06-09-2013, 04:36 PM
Agree with SixKeys & stingray110, But not all that to just guards. They should make templar-assassin guard that hunts you. With more special weapons/tools only for them.

SixKeys
06-09-2013, 04:50 PM
Sounds a good idea. It can add challenge and perhaps...*gasp* the possibility to die. One problem though, Ubi never have been good at AI when it comes to AC so we could encounter some problems. We may be bombarded with objects coming at all angles, getting rope darted and hit with bombs simutaneously and what not, which would be a bit of a pain. If pulled of correctly though, yes I like your conceot.

Obviously there should be a limit to how many times enemies can use tools in a battle and not every enemy should have tools at their disposal. Consider the archetypes we currently have though: we have firing lines which counts as a special move (only certain enemies are able to form firing lines and it takes time for them to reload), we have captains with pistols (easy to avoid, but you have to watch their movements) and we have grenadiers with bombs. That's three different archetypes that are commonly encountered in almost every enemy group and they work quite well. They offer some extra challenge while not turning the combat into chaos because the amout of times they can use their special moves is limited. In future games you could have for example two "captain" archetypes: one with a regular pistol and one with a blowpipe, or you could just replace the pistol guy with a blowpipe guy as the pistol really isn't a big deal currently (doesn't cause much damage and easy to avoid).

Actually, I think I just came up with an even better idea. They should bring back the stalkers from ACR and arm them with poison. They wouldn't just rush out at you with a knife, they would hide in the crowd and try to poison you. Imagine entering a blend group thinking you're safe and suddenly your vision gets all blurry and you hear whispers. You realize you've just been poisoned and you have a limited amount of time to use Eagle Vision to find your poisoner, kill him and acquire an antidote.

What do you guys think? Do you think this would get annoying or would it be a fun addition?

MasterAssasin84
06-09-2013, 04:54 PM
One way to make combat even a tad more challenging would be if there were enemies that are able to use certain tools just like the assassin. In ACR you had guards that could throw bombs at you. Supposedly the grenadiers in AC3 do this too, but I can honestly say I don't remember encountering such an occurrence even once in my AC3 playthroughs. I think the guards that do this do it much less frequently than in ACR.

Enemies should be able to use smoke bombs and regular bombs. Getting caught in a smoke bomb would have the same effect on the assassin as it does on the guards: you're stuck coughing for a few seconds, during which time you are vulnerable to attacks. Regular bombs should take away a bigger chunk of your health than they currently do, to pose a legitimate concern. Some elite enemies could even use tools like the rope dart, throwing knives or poison. You would have to watch their movements carefully (similar to the firing lines or captains with pistols) to anticipate what their next move is going to be.

For example you would see a guard reaching for a blowpipe from his belt, loading it with poison darts, lifting the pipe to his lips and getting ready to fire. You would have to kill him before he could fire the dart at you. If you did get poisoned, you wouldn't die instantly, but the screen would get a blurry effect like in one of the Boston Brawlers missions, making the rest of the fight more challenging. Only after beating all enemies you would be cured of the effect (maybe you'd have to loot their bodies for an antidote).

Thoughts?

Yes agreed we should ! i want a challenge, its ok being labelled a Master Assassin but the AI of the enemies is that of a cheese role !

" Could it be that you are every bit as Deadly as the Legends say ? ' or am i in charge of of an Army of drunks swinging sticks ?

Yes Captain Leandros your army are a bunch drunks swinging twigs ! ,

To be considered a Master Assassin we should be able to measure our skill against other skilled opponants who can handle a blade just like the would be protaganist,

I want a challenge !

ProletariatPleb
06-09-2013, 04:56 PM
With the current fanbase? Some people find the combat as it is "hard' -_-

SixKeys
06-09-2013, 04:59 PM
With the current fanbase? Some people find the combat as it is "hard' -_-

Those people are a minority and I think Ubi knows this too. Every time a new game comes out all the professional reviewers complain about how the combat is still too easy. Here on the forums we occasionally get people like you describe, but the overwhelming majority (even casuals) thinks the combat could use more challenge.

Shahkulu101
06-09-2013, 05:07 PM
Love the stalkers idea aswell, those guys scared the hell out of me but could be disposed easily. With your poisoned idea it could work brilliantly as a fun random event which includes challenge and skill to complete aswell as adding to the feel and atmosphere of an Assassins enviroment.

MasterAssasin84
06-09-2013, 05:09 PM
With the current fanbase? Some people find the combat as it is "hard' -_-

This ! i mean dodge, counter, disarm ( Low profile - High Profile ) its quite shocking actualy.

ProletariatPleb
06-09-2013, 05:09 PM
Those people are a minority and I think Ubi knows this too. Every time a new game comes out all the professional reviewers complain about how the combat is still too easy. Here on the forums we occasionally get people like you describe, but the overwhelming majority (even casuals) thinks the combat could use more challenge.
Well you know my take on that, I want it to be insanely tough so.......... yeah the idea could work...assuming they don't make it even easier.

Sushiglutton
06-09-2013, 05:53 PM
Yes and no for me :). Overall I like the idea of enemies having tools to spice up the combat and add more layers/challenge. But I think it would be immersion breaking if, say a redcoat, used a smokebomb in the middle of combat. Exotic tools like that (and stuff like ropedart etc) should only be used by templar elites, or perhaps natives if it suits the era. That the assassin has access to tools that regular soldiers don't have is fine by me.

Secondly there should always be the possibility to dodge any kind of attack imo. Enemies trhowing a smokebomb that incapacitates you for a few seconds with no chance of fighting back, is the kind of stuff that really annoys me in games. It just feels cheap to die like that.

LoyalACFan
06-09-2013, 06:19 PM
Yes and no for me :). Overall I like the idea of enemies having tools to spice up the combat and add more layers/challenge. But I think it would be immersion breaking if, say a redcoat, used a smokebomb in the middle of combat. Exotic tools like that (and stuff like ropedart etc) should only be used by templar elites, or perhaps natives if it suits the era. That the assassin has access to tools that regular soldiers don't have is fine by me.

This. I don't want the enemies to have access to all kinds of insane rare weaponry that only the Assassin should have. TBH I have mixed feelings about having a humongous arsenal even for the Assassin, and I would hate to see such exotic tools in the hands of guards who realistically would have no business having them in that period in history.

IMO the best thing to add to combat would be a super-difficult archetype (I'm talking almost impossible to beat) who only show up in restricted areas or protecting main assassination targets. That way they could keep combat simple and relatively easy until those guys show up to inspire an epic AC1-style escape scene.

pacmanate
06-09-2013, 06:38 PM
A lot of the AC fanbase suck at gaming from what I've gathered.

AC2_alex
06-09-2013, 06:57 PM
This is another instance to me where the AC team could learn a lot from the Arkham games. Just add a variety of enemy types. For example, maybe one guard you need to knock him off balance with a rope dart first. Make the player use all the items at their disposal. This will make you FEEL like an Assassin, having complete mastery over all his tools.

SixKeys
06-09-2013, 07:06 PM
Yes and no for me :). Overall I like the idea of enemies having tools to spice up the combat and add more layers/challenge. But I think it would be immersion breaking if, say a redcoat, used a smokebomb in the middle of combat. Exotic tools like that (and stuff like ropedart etc) should only be used by templar elites, or perhaps natives if it suits the era. That the assassin has access to tools that regular soldiers don't have is fine by me.

Secondly there should always be the possibility to dodge any kind of attack imo. Enemies trhowing a smokebomb that incapacitates you for a few seconds with no chance of fighting back, is the kind of stuff that really annoys me in games. It just feels cheap to die like that.

Smoke bombs really aren't that exotic. In fact it's kind of silly how only the assassins have had them throughout the centuries and none of the Templars have ever armed themselves with similar weapons. In ACR you weren't the only one with bombs which made sense (especially considering the city was littered with random bomb-crafting stations). Why, in the 18th century, are we still the only person on the whole continent who has something as simple as smoke bombs?

Like I said before, I'm talking about elite enemies. So no, basic enemies (like redcoats) wouldn't have special tools, but elite guards could and IMO should have.

As for always being able to dodge any attack, I disagree. That's exactly what makes the combat so easy. We have a crapton of tools at our disposal so we already have an unfair advantage over the enemies, and on top of that we are magically able to evade gunfire and bombs while our enemies can't. Special tools would be a way to level the playing field.

In general I think smoke bomb effects currently last way too long. It's just ridiculous that you're able to kill 5 guys in one smoke cloud. The effect should be minimal where it gives you just enough breathing space to regain your foothold and enough time to kill maybe 3 enemies max. If enemies were able to use smoke bombs on us, the effect should only last for a couple of seconds, just like in AC1 where some of the guards could kick you and you'd fall on the floor for a few seconds. Enough to incapacitate you and allow for one free hit from an enemy while you're vulnerable, but not enough to get killed in one hit.


This. I don't want the enemies to have access to all kinds of insane rare weaponry that only the Assassin should have. TBH I have mixed feelings about having a humongous arsenal even for the Assassin, and I would hate to see such exotic tools in the hands of guards who realistically would have no business having them in that period in history.

IMO the best thing to add to combat would be a super-difficult archetype (I'm talking almost impossible to beat) who only show up in restricted areas or protecting main assassination targets. That way they could keep combat simple and relatively easy until those guys show up to inspire an epic AC1-style escape scene.

Again, many of the weapons at our disposal aren't that exotic. Things like the rope dart, sure, but not smoke bombs and throwing knives.

I would agree about super-difficult archetype if Ubi hadn't already tried that multiple times. In AC1 it was the Templar knights who were tough up until you learned the counter-attack move. In ACR it was the Janissaries who you could beat just by button-mashing them to death, and in AC3 it was the Jägers who could be shot down or rope-darted. Face it, Ubi just isn't very good at creating tough archetypes. Having enemies with special tools would at least be a step in the right direction to balance the ridiculous arsenal the player has at their disposal.

Sushiglutton
06-09-2013, 07:42 PM
Smoke bombs really aren't that exotic. In fact it's kind of silly how only the assassins have had them throughout the centuries and none of the Templars have ever armed themselves with similar weapons. In ACR you weren't the only one with bombs which made sense (especially considering the city was littered with random bomb-crafting stations). Why, in the 18th century, are we still the only person on the whole continent who has something as simple as smoke bombs?

Like I said before, I'm talking about elite enemies. So no, basic enemies (like redcoats) wouldn't have special tools, but elite guards could and IMO should have.

As for always being able to dodge any attack, I disagree. That's exactly what makes the combat so easy. We have a crapton of tools at our disposal so we already have an unfair advantage over the enemies, and on top of that we are magically able to evade gunfire and bombs while our enemies can't. Special tools would be a way to level the playing field.

In general I think smoke bomb effects currently last way too long. It's just ridiculous that you're able to kill 5 guys in one smoke cloud. The effect should be minimal where it gives you just enough breathing space to regain your foothold and enough time to kill maybe 3 enemies max. If enemies were able to use smoke bombs on us, the effect should only last for a couple of seconds, just like in AC1 where some of the guards could kick you and you'd fall on the floor for a few seconds. Enough to incapacitate you and allow for one free hit from an enemy while you're vulnerable, but not enough to get killed in one hit.


Never heard of smoke bombs being used by a western army as early as the events of AC3. I could be wrong about that ofc, but I have no memory of reading about it. In that sense it is an exotic tool. That AC:R was littered with bombcrafting stations, shops with parachutes and that you can loot ropedarts from guards in AC3 are examples of unelegant and lazy solutions to game design problems imo. I think those solutions are the problem not that guards can't carry those tools (with some exceptions in AC:R). If you by elite guards mean templars (aka not elite guards in the regular army) then we agree on that part :).

Being able to dodge all attacks doesn't make combat easy per se. You can still balance things like time windows and complexity of dodge input. In a game like Bayonetta I don't think there are any attacks you can't theoretically dodge, yet the game can be very hard because it's so fast. Guards throwing a smoke bomb and then chop you down without you being able to do a thing about it (if you were low on health) would be terrible imo. Don't get what's fun about that at all. It's just random, cheap and punishing without offering any interesting gameplay to compensate.

LoyalACFan
06-09-2013, 08:32 PM
Again, many of the weapons at our disposal aren't that exotic. Things like the rope dart, sure, but not smoke bombs and throwing knives.

Smoke bombs didn't even exist until the 1800s. I wouldn't mind some elite Templar guy having them, since they've been around much longer in the AC canon, but just guards? Nah. Things would get silly real quick.


I would agree about super-difficult archetype if Ubi hadn't already tried that multiple times. In AC1 it was the Templar knights who were tough up until you learned the counter-attack move. In ACR it was the Janissaries who you could beat just by button-mashing them to death, and in AC3 it was the Jägers who could be shot down or rope-darted. Face it, Ubi just isn't very good at creating tough archetypes. Having enemies with special tools would at least be a step in the right direction to balance the ridiculous arsenal the player has at their disposal.

Just because they haven't done it so far doesn't mean they never can. If they just make an archetype that's pretty much invulnerable to everything short of gunshots (not including the instakill Counter+Triangle move) and even then, takes two or three shots to die, that would be fine. The chase sequences we all remember so fondly from AC1 were inspired not because combat was difficult, but because it took forever to kill more than half a dozen guys. If only we had an enemy who took more than three seconds to dispatch, the chases might be fun again.

lothario-da-be
06-09-2013, 08:34 PM
I would love it when enemies use a lot tools, it makes combat more dynamic.

SixKeys
06-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Being able to dodge all attacks doesn't make combat easy per se. You can still balance things like time windows and complexity of dodge input. In a game like Bayonetta I don't think there are any attacks you can't theoretically dodge, yet the game can be very hard because it's so fast. Guards throwing a smoke bomb and then chop you down without you being able to do a thing about it (if you were low on health) would be terrible imo. Don't get what's fun about that at all. It's just random, cheap and punishing without offering any interesting gameplay to compensate.

It wouldn't be any more random than guards that already form firing lines or aim at you with pistols. In AC3 it's all about keeping track of the enemies' movements and cutting them down before they have a chance to surprise you. That's how combat should be, IMO. It was especially fun in the Desmond missions where you didn't have triangles above the guards' heads warning you about their next move. You had to keep an eye out for the guy backing up and slowly aiming his gun at you while fighting off his companion. What I'm suggesting would work just the same. Just replace the pistol-wielding guy with blowpipe-wielding guy. In my scenario, if you got caught in a smoke bomb and got killed, it would be because you failed to pay attention to your surroundings, not because of a random happenstance.



Just because they haven't done it so far doesn't mean they never can. If they just make an archetype that's pretty much invulnerable to everything short of gunshots (not including the instakill Counter+Triangle move) and even then, takes two or three shots to die, that would be fine. The chase sequences we all remember so fondly from AC1 were inspired not because combat was difficult, but because it took forever to kill more than half a dozen guys. If only we had an enemy who took more than three seconds to dispatch, the chases might be fun again.

In principle I agree with you that it would be great to have some proper elite enemies in AC. The problem is that Ubisoft sees archetypes as an easy answer to avoid addressing the flaws of the combat system. So they keep on creating archetypes that on the surface appear tough, but as soon as the player discovers the proper counter-attack for each type, they can all be taken down easily. I think in ACR the Janissaries actually backed out of smoke clouds when you threw a smoke bomb. We need more enemies that are resistant to certain techniques. It would make sense that someone who is himself a master at using a particular type of weapon (like smoke bombs) would be more resistant to its effects.

LoyalACFan
06-09-2013, 10:35 PM
In principle I agree with you that it would be great to have some proper elite enemies in AC. The problem is that Ubisoft sees archetypes as an easy answer to avoid addressing the flaws of the combat system. So they keep on creating archetypes that on the surface appear tough, but as soon as the player discovers the proper counter-attack for each type, they can all be taken down easily. I think in ACR the Janissaries actually backed out of smoke clouds when you threw a smoke bomb. We need more enemies that are resistant to certain techniques. It would make sense that someone who is himself a master at using a particular type of weapon (like smoke bombs) would be more resistant to its effects.

You're absolutely right about their history of making archetypes who have a single very obvious weakness, but what I'm getting at is that they need an archetype who doesn't have a weakness per se. Who can only be killed by a hidden blade to the back or a gunshot to the head. Personally, I don't think they need to focus on making combat harder, since, as part of the fantasy of being a Master Assassin, it should be pretty easy to fight off regular enemies. Regardless of the complete lack of challenge, I still think AC3's combat was the best of the series, since none of the other games were any harder but the fighting was slow and boring. However, I do miss those massive chase scenes from AC1, and having such quick, easy combat basically renders them obsolete. That's why I think a nearly invincible archetype should appear to guard important targets/restricted zones. Because let's face facts, they're never going to make combat hard enough to warrant running away from, so during certain missions (and maybe when you're fully notorious in free roam) they should make direct confrontation impractical by introducing super-tough enemies.