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View Full Version : The P-38 is still undermodelled.



BennyMoore
09-03-2004, 03:06 AM
Right, this is a halfhearted attempt, because I've completely given up on the game and do not care whether or not the P-38 is fixed. Besides, it can't be fully fixed with the current engine.

However, someone decided it would be fun to call me stupid, a liar, and a bad pilot, and also imply that the P-38 was a miserable plane (unforgivable). And he referred to my earlier thread in which I made a mistake in my data. I point out once again that even after the data was corrected, the P-38 is still undermodelled. But no one wanted to hear that. Therefore, rather than giving you my calculations (correct or not), I will simply give you data. If you want to claim that the P-38 is just fine in the game, then you're going to have to ignore this.

Forgive me if it seems incomplete and thrown oddly together, because it is. As I said, I lost interest in the case because I have given up on the game. I now can but sadly hope for a realistic World War Two game, preferably one with the P-38 in it.

Anyway...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-38J
Power Plant: 2 x 1,425 hp V-1710-89/91
Dimensions:
Span 52 0
Length 37 ft 10
Height 9 ft 10
Wing Area Sq.ft. 327.5
Weight
Empty 12,780
Gross 21,600

Speeds
Max mph/ft. 414/25,000
Cruising mph 290
Climb/min./ft. 7/20,000

Service ceiling 44,000 ft
Range st.miles 450

Armament 1x 20mm
4x 0.5 in.
2x 1,600 lb.

P-38L
Power Plant: 2 x 1,475 hp V-1710-111/113
Dimensions (same as J model):
Span 52 0
Length 37 ft 10
Height 9 ft 10
Wing Area Sq.ft. 327.5

Weight
Empty 12,800
Gross 21,600

Speeds (same as J model)
Max mph/ft. 414/25,00
Cruising 290
Climb/min./ft. 7/20,000

Service ceiling 44,000 ft
Range st.miles 450

Armament (same as J model)
1x 20mm
4x 0.5 in.
2x 1,600 lb.
//signed//
JANIE W. SANTOS
Chief, Information Products
Air Force News Agency<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once, when I e-mailed Oleg about a certain gauge in the P-38 J and L cockpits, he recommended me to look for a flight manual. I have since then acquired one (it came on the disk with Jeff Ethell's Roaring Glory video on the P-38). Here I would like to also reinforce my argument with data from Lockheed's P-38 Lighning pilot's handbook.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The airplane is stable at all normal speeds. The airplane
becomes slightly nose-heavy when the flaps
and landing gear are extended.

With power OFF, the airplane stalls at the following
indicated airspeeds at the gross weight noted:
15,000 lb 17,000 lb. 19,000 lb.
Flaps and landing
gear UP 94 mph 100 mph 105 mph
Flaps and landing
gear DOWN 69 mph 74 mph 78 mph
As stalling speed is approached, the center section
stalls first with noticeable shaking of the airplane,
however, the ailerons remain effective.
In either power on or power off stalls with flaps and
landing gear up, the airplane straight forward in a
well controlled stall. With flaps and landing gear
down, there appears to be a slight tendency to spin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note the stall speeds, along with the weights! Make your conclusions. And be a man - be honest about it.

BennyMoore
09-03-2004, 03:06 AM
Right, this is a halfhearted attempt, because I've completely given up on the game and do not care whether or not the P-38 is fixed. Besides, it can't be fully fixed with the current engine.

However, someone decided it would be fun to call me stupid, a liar, and a bad pilot, and also imply that the P-38 was a miserable plane (unforgivable). And he referred to my earlier thread in which I made a mistake in my data. I point out once again that even after the data was corrected, the P-38 is still undermodelled. But no one wanted to hear that. Therefore, rather than giving you my calculations (correct or not), I will simply give you data. If you want to claim that the P-38 is just fine in the game, then you're going to have to ignore this.

Forgive me if it seems incomplete and thrown oddly together, because it is. As I said, I lost interest in the case because I have given up on the game. I now can but sadly hope for a realistic World War Two game, preferably one with the P-38 in it.

Anyway...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-38J
Power Plant: 2 x 1,425 hp V-1710-89/91
Dimensions:
Span 52 0
Length 37 ft 10
Height 9 ft 10
Wing Area Sq.ft. 327.5
Weight
Empty 12,780
Gross 21,600

Speeds
Max mph/ft. 414/25,000
Cruising mph 290
Climb/min./ft. 7/20,000

Service ceiling 44,000 ft
Range st.miles 450

Armament 1x 20mm
4x 0.5 in.
2x 1,600 lb.

P-38L
Power Plant: 2 x 1,475 hp V-1710-111/113
Dimensions (same as J model):
Span 52 0
Length 37 ft 10
Height 9 ft 10
Wing Area Sq.ft. 327.5

Weight
Empty 12,800
Gross 21,600

Speeds (same as J model)
Max mph/ft. 414/25,00
Cruising 290
Climb/min./ft. 7/20,000

Service ceiling 44,000 ft
Range st.miles 450

Armament (same as J model)
1x 20mm
4x 0.5 in.
2x 1,600 lb.
//signed//
JANIE W. SANTOS
Chief, Information Products
Air Force News Agency<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once, when I e-mailed Oleg about a certain gauge in the P-38 J and L cockpits, he recommended me to look for a flight manual. I have since then acquired one (it came on the disk with Jeff Ethell's Roaring Glory video on the P-38). Here I would like to also reinforce my argument with data from Lockheed's P-38 Lighning pilot's handbook.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The airplane is stable at all normal speeds. The airplane
becomes slightly nose-heavy when the flaps
and landing gear are extended.

With power OFF, the airplane stalls at the following
indicated airspeeds at the gross weight noted:
15,000 lb 17,000 lb. 19,000 lb.
Flaps and landing
gear UP 94 mph 100 mph 105 mph
Flaps and landing
gear DOWN 69 mph 74 mph 78 mph
As stalling speed is approached, the center section
stalls first with noticeable shaking of the airplane,
however, the ailerons remain effective.
In either power on or power off stalls with flaps and
landing gear up, the airplane straight forward in a
well controlled stall. With flaps and landing gear
down, there appears to be a slight tendency to spin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note the stall speeds, along with the weights! Make your conclusions. And be a man - be honest about it.

Extreme_One
09-03-2004, 04:06 AM
OK I'm ready to take up your challenge. I'll be a man about it and I'll be honest.

Although this is the best flight sim/game on the market it's not without it's shortcomings.

It's not a multi million pound simulator as used by the military - it is a PC GAME

The game was originally conceived as an IL2 sim with one flyable.
Thankfully Oleg and team decided that they could add more flyables and the game grew.

Perfection in every aspect of every FM is unnatainable with the processing power of even the most powerful PC.

Why bother sweating over the data when there's so much fun to be had?

Surely if the general concensus is that things are "about right" or "as close as we can get it" then that's good enough.
I'd rather have all the flyables we do have (with the quirky FMs on some of them) than one flyable with a perfect FM.

Just my 2 pence worth...

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-Ex_1_sig.jpg

Submit your files to the IL2 website (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=788102065)
il2submissions@ubisoft.co.uk

essemm
09-03-2004, 05:04 AM
Extreme_one: 1
Menny Moore: 0

Seriously...I am sorry that you feel your favorite plane is undermodelled, but like Extreme One said...this is a game. They have a rediculous number of flyable aircraft in the game...and have by far the best post-release support of ANY game that I have ever played. The fact that Oleg even talked to you and asked you to get a manual for him to look at is unprecedented for many other developers.

I love the Corsair. I can't wait to fly it. It is BY FAR my favorite WWII plane. So what am I going to do if the Corsair is undermodelled in PF? Go back to my German campaign, because it is an enormous amount of FUN.

Chill out a bit, and you will realise that this game is a lot of fun.

Hope to see you around.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/141103-warloch_small.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
09-03-2004, 05:19 AM
Energy isnt moddeled in FB very well

its one reason the P-38 doesnt do as well as you might expect Benny

but again you have to test the p-38 against the Object viewer infomation . . . . . WHY ? , because those are the specs it is supposed to match & if it doesnt then you have a case of undermoddeling

last time i checked , the L & J were correct for speed but were not able to reach there stated max alt

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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OldMan____
09-03-2004, 05:41 AM
Almost all planes in game have some quirks. Not only yours!

P38 have some slightly slow speed and climb when compared to even obj view data. Stall speed is not that far from what you stated (remember teses speeds are without turning) 100Mph are 160 kph.. I can fly at 170 with it in game.. not that far (turn off wind and turbulence to test).

But may birds have simmilar quirks, 190 zoom climb (although shallow climb is OK). All dives are very tightly simmilar, speed issues with spit (too slow on deck.. too high up high).


So learn to live with game and hope that each day all FM get more precise.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

NorrisMcWhirter
09-03-2004, 06:36 AM
Hi,

It's possible that your data is correct but it's not the only thing undermodelled/wrong in the game. In fact, I whine so much, my missus has started to oil my jaw on a regular basis.

That aside, fly the P38 half the time and the P63 for the remainder so, on average, you are flying in a correctly modelled manner.

Ta,
Norris

================================================== ==========

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: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
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'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
'Yeah, but look on the bright side - at least the 0.50s are fixed!'
Moral: $$$ + whining = anything is possible

Obi_Kwiet
09-03-2004, 06:40 AM
Keep in mind that while the allies had pretty good acess to the p-38, there wern't very many super planes like the 190D or the 152 floating around. The P-38 is on a slightly unrealistic play feild here.

robban75
09-03-2004, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Keep in mind that while the allies had pretty good acess to the p-38, there wern't very many super planes like the 190D or the 152 floating around. The P-38 is on a slightly unrealistic play feild here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen numbers on the D-9 ranging from 600-1600. I'm guessing they could have been a more regular sight(in the air) if there'd been more fuel avaliable.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

Xnomad
09-03-2004, 08:48 AM
What I don't understand is in "Fork Tailed Devil" the talk is about the P-38 being far better than the Bf 109 at very low altitudes and that it could out turn it there, I can't imagine a big fighter like that doing something like that, but that's what was written in the book. It was said that the Luftwaffe didn't have a plane that could come up against the P-38 at low alt.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Xnomad-Sig.jpg

mortoma
09-03-2004, 09:35 AM
Every plane in the sim is either over or undermodelled, but not by a huge amount. Why??
Because it's a sim that has imperfectons and limitations, that's why. Unless an aircraft is modelled perfectly, which is impossible, it therefore has to be over or under slightly in some category. But so what?? Why do people continue to expect perfection in a sim game?? It's doubtful that any sim will ever be developed with perfect FM, so get used to it and try to enjoy it. The people at Maddox have got it reasonably close in most cases, better than any other prop sim. Have fun please.

geetarman
09-03-2004, 10:09 AM
Xnomad - you're right. I've read alot on the 38 and I ride it almost 100% of the time on-line. I can't remember reading an account from a pilot in the MTO or ETO that said he couldn't handle a 109 or 190 down low. Particularly in turning. There are many accounts available.

On balance, the 109 in particluar, seemed to have a decent margin of performance over the 38 as altitudes increased over 20,000'. This margin was not there at much lower alts.

As to the original poster - one of the reasons I fly the 38 is that it seems to have a fairly realistic flight model compared to some other Allied planes. I agree that it is off a bit, but, overall, I think Oleg and his guys did a pretty good job with it.

geetarman/Wasp38

Kartveli
09-03-2004, 10:37 AM
I can sympathise with benny in some respects...and sure, its just a game, and one cant expect everything to be spot on, but cmon,...the 38 is seriously undermodeled...

the fact that it enters a state of compressability about 100 kph too soon has a faily large impact of its performance, no?

Benny, could you tell us just what the "certain gauge" in question is, or was, please?

I also am disgusted with how the 38 in FB is, itsd truly a shame for a great type, but im not going to stop playing FB cuz of that..I just try to pretend 38s never existed, so I dont get upset about them

In fact, I have resigned myself to the fact that there will be no twinn that will ever fly in the FB engine with satifactory performance, so I have given up any hope of seeing a well done and accurate He 219, Mossie, Do225, etc...although, oddly enough, the FAKE 109Z flys brillliantly and with very little torque....

Extreme One, ty , I never knew that IL2 was concieved as a singular falyable type game....but what I have to ssay about that, is, knowing that the last generation of "sims" were Janes, EAW, JAS, SDOE etc, and that Oleg was a Janes player, that anyone would set out to make a game for only one type in mind to be flyable is incredibly short-sighted...

Inconcievable that anyone could or would expect a game featuring merely one type to fly would sell at all, let alone be interesting beyond a few days fo ranyone, who wouldnt want to fly at least a few different types in a dogfight....also, if this game was originally supposed to be an IL2 only, then how come the ground tgts suck so bad, and dont even have little men runing around as extra killables? even an older game like Janes (which was concieved as balanced dogfight and ground attack game, featuring foro then, the low, lowtotoal of 5 flyables) has little guys that get blown from hit vehicles, or suvive the strike to run and get cut down later?

at least the scoring system will be changed with PF, I dont know exactly how it will be changed, but almost anything must be better than the "point *****" system we are currently saddled with....but again, that Oleg played Janes with its simple, logical individual/team kill/loss ratio counter and did not take the spirit of this, at least, to IL2/FB boggles my mind (such as it is)...

chris455
09-03-2004, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Keep in mind that while the allies had pretty good acess to the p-38, there wern't very many super planes like the 190D or the 152 floating around. The P-38 is on a slightly unrealistic play feild here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was he trying to say? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

LStarosta
09-03-2004, 10:54 AM
I think this calls for another formula...

Need more coffee....

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!
Spitfire = Technoblabble(Oleg/"Favors Recieved" from [wo]men)^PI(Magic 8 Ball)(amount of LSD Taken+Booze)(Position of the Earth Relative to the Sun)(Position of the Sun relative to God)^2

"You must factor in the alignment of the planets for the day in which the equation is completed, because the Spit can harness the power of the Earth's rotation and we're working on harnessing the power of ALL rotating and revolving objects in our solar system, later the whole universe, thus boosting the Spit's top speed to r0xx0rz KPH." -Dr. Nathan Roberts

horseback
09-03-2004, 10:59 AM
Ahh, Benny, every time you post I can almost hear Crosby, Stills & Nash singing '49 Bye Byes.'

One can only hope that you exhibit similar loyalty to your friends and family, but I warn you that excessive zeal can lead to what I call FW 190 Cockpit View Syndrome. If you cross the line, Oleg will refuse to change anything on your bird regardless of the evidence.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

S 8
09-03-2004, 11:32 AM
Just fly one type,no fun?
I remember a game to my old Atari 1040 STE called F-16 combat pilot.Just one type and NO outside view!I had insanely fun with it.So a one typ AC sim could and surely would be fun.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
09-03-2004, 12:01 PM
i think the handling is abit off, i just cant do well with it at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
and the stall is wrong.
i dont know what is wrong, but it handles like cr4p for me, any tips for flying it? and convergance

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
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geetarman
09-03-2004, 12:20 PM
Some tips:

1. Stay at lower alts;
2. Keep speed up (380-400 kph) unless you've elected to df;
3. Use combat flaps judiciously;
4. Don't use the airbrake to manuever;
5. If dogfighting, use the combat flaps and keep your hand on the throttle. It reacts very quickly to throttle changes at low alt.
6. Feel free to turn with any 109 later than the G2 at lower speeds. Ok to turn with any 190 variant.
7. You can go vertical and have full control at speeds as low as 270-280 kph. In fact, a controlled loop is possible at that speed.
8. Always start your attack with either an alt. advantage or a speed advantage. You can quickly trade the speed for height.
9. Do not horizontally turn fight with the G2, any Spitfire, any Japanese or Russian bird or a Mustang with a speed advantage.

this is short and off the cuff, but should help

Korolov
09-03-2004, 12:53 PM
*shrug*

You're entitled to your opinion of course. Extreme_One's post makes the most sense, so no use reinventing the wheel here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
any tips for flying it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally, if you maintain a hit and run stance and have a altitude advantage over your opponents, you should just use shallow dives and escapes to make one or two passes on a enemy. Convergence doesn't really matter, just zoom up close and hit him with all you got. Against german planes, you can turn for a fairly reasonable time, but you're better off with pure hit and run.

Now in the pacific... The P-38 is a monster. In the ETO, I'd say just average because the 109 can do just about everything the P-38 can do in aerial combat. It either takes teamwork or the advantage of surprise to succeed in ETO scenarios with the P-38.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

BennyMoore
09-03-2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
I warn you that excessive zeal can lead to what I call FW 190 Cockpit View Syndrome. If you cross the line, Oleg will refuse to change anything on your bird regardless of the evidence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, you are right. As I said, however, I've given up on the game. I'm quite serious and am looking for buyers for my copies. I'm selling at half of original price (or best offer), and they are in excellent condition with all manuals and boxes. This thread was a sort of follow up to my original thread, because the mistake I made on the first one was highlighted by the P-38 haters (and the less deplorable Benny Moore haters) over the fact that, even after calculation correction, my statement was correct. Anyway, I'm pleasantly surprised to see no flames here. I confess that I did not think that there would be objective discussion about this, especially considering the angry manner in which I posted.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kartveli:
Benny, could you tell us just what the "certain gauge" in question is, or was, please?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, here is my e-mail.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The P-38 Lighting cockpit in the game has only one tachometer and one manifold pressure gauge. The real P-38 Lighting had two tachometers and two manifold pressure gauges, one of each for each engine. Check out the United States Army Air Force P-38 video on Zenoswarbirdvideos.com and you will see two of each side by side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wrong in that the versions of the P-38 modelled in the game had a single, integrated guage for the tachometers and and one for the manifold pressure guages. The earlier versions were equipped with the double guages for each type, and I assumed that it was the same for the later ones. Oleg replied, "I recommend to look for flight manual."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
What I don't understand is in "Fork Tailed Devil" the talk is about the P-38 being far better than the Bf 109 at very low altitudes and that it could out turn it there, I can't imagine a big fighter like that doing something like that, but that's what was written in the book. It was said that the Luftwaffe didn't have a plane that could come up against the P-38 at low alt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never read that book (I must look for it), but I am not at all surprised by what you quoted from it. You see, the P-38 was much more maneuverable than most people think. Its size was made up for by huge wing (low wing loading) and elevator surface area. Its lack of torque made it easy to stall without spinning, even in a turn. While I do not know exactly how they did it, both Bong and McGuire (America's leading aces) successfully used this stall in turn fights with Zeroes, and Bong even claimed that, contrary to popular opinion, the P-38 could turn with a Zero. While I do not take this to mean that the P-38 was more maneuverable than the Zero, his statement should be considered seriously. He should know! I interpret it to mean that a P-38 can turn with a Zero for a limited amount of time, before the speed is lost and the advantage passes to the Zero. So, no, the P-38's claim to fame was not its turning ability, but it wasn't the boat that most people think it was.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-03-2004, 03:56 PM
Awww hell,

come on mate nobody 'Hate's' yah?

You just have a natural talent for droping conversational handgrenades http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (what you doing arguing about P-38's in the bloody lomac forum for anyhoo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif?)

Personally I think you just need to step back for a couple of months, and take a deep breath now and then and maybe give the red haze a chance to clear before you post?

Dont take it so personally it aint worth it.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

Platypus_1.JaVA
09-03-2004, 04:05 PM
Go Buy CFS-3

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

VMF513_Sandman
09-03-2004, 05:24 PM
biggest beef i have with the 38 is the fact that the only lead ur putting out is the tracer fire. only the 50 cal's do this, not the 109, 190's, yaks, spits, iar's, or hurricane's. the 'shell packet' is wide enough between bursts for a 239 to practically fly through.
now if the guns on all aircraft were to fire from outer to inner (on wing guns), and alternate between barrels in cowl mounts, tracer fire being the 5th shell fired, all aircraft gun accuracy would dead on the mark. as it is now, they dont do this. seems the hurricane's pattern is tracer with every shell...weak bullets to knock a plane down, yes..but should be able to get a pk if at very close range at the very least.

it does seem like the engines isnt gettin quite amount of power to where the throttle is at the get go, but i've also noticed that when u go to do a vertical loop-over, the engines seems to spool down reguardless of throttle settings; same for a 90 degree bank angle, or flippin the bird on its back. realistic? no clue..never had the chance to fly an actual p-38 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif.

adjusting the prop rpm on the other hand, seems to do wonders. even the p-38-F of cfs2 wasnt much of a turn and burner except at what would have been rather slow speed...218-220 knts would make it competitive in a furball, and u got very good turn rate(for a ship its size) with 1 notch of flap halfway thru the turn, then raise flap on the other half. this monster we have here behaves way differnt than this, but if u try to use airbrake to slam that bird in a 90 degree turn, ur gonna pork urself...if u go into a flat spin, ur a dead man.

manuverability wise, it seems the J has a bit better low-speed handling than the L, but the L's controls seems a tad more responsive. downside of the J is, it will go into compressibility quickly and it's murder to get out of it before it goes 'sploosh'.

flaps appear to help this bird to a point in turns, but u have an extremely narrow window of speed to get the most out of the turn rate. its very touchy in this area obviously, and u wont master this plane overnite. be aware that at or about 390, ur flaps will jam past combat flaps. speed increases very quickly in a shallow dive, and it wont take long to jam them if u forget.

what would really help this plane out is fixing the guns...the 2 bottom barrels being considered the 'outboard', and the top 2 'inboard' if u insist on having the guns fire all at once; 2 on, 2 off scenerio. the gun pattern would improve immensely...not just in the 38, but in all aircraft.

p1ngu666
09-03-2004, 09:50 PM
yes sandman, onwhine the guns also fire slower but more damage to even out (for lag reasons) (only for some guns iirec) so ive had planes fly thru a hail of fire and be ok.

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p1ngu666
09-03-2004, 09:54 PM
oh thanks for the tips http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ill try to use those and practise http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Dammerung
09-03-2004, 11:05 PM
Just have to treat it like a FW190, and Maneuver in the vertical- Something a lot of pilots online dont remember how to do.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

Aaron_GT
09-04-2004, 02:08 AM
"biggest beef i have with the 38 is the fact that the only lead ur putting out is the tracer fire."

Are you sure? As far as I can tell, from firing at the ground offline, there are many more strikes on the ground than just the number of tracers fired from the .50

p1ngu666
09-04-2004, 02:12 AM
for onwhine its possible, ill give it a test http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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p1ngu666
09-04-2004, 02:35 AM
this is odd
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/p38guns.jpg

the grey smoke is tracer hitting, god knows what the black ones are ap?

i did a static test aswell, parked up and it does seem only the tracer hits then.
ill compare to offwhine quickly

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3.JG51_Stecher
09-04-2004, 03:22 AM
This can be replicated very easily. I did it both online and offline, firing at both the front of a large hangar and at the ground. First make sure that you have the four .50 cals and the 20mm set to different buttons so you can only fire the .50 cals. Just use very quick taps of the trigger. You'll see it gives one burst of tracer and then one burst of non-tracer, going back and forth between the two. Both tracer and "blind" bursts hit whatever you are shooting at. The "blind" bursts, on the ground, will simply produce that darker kick up of dirt. The tracer rounds will produce the same with the addition of a light puff.

It's been said that the .50 cals ROF should not be perfectly synchronized so you should be seeing a constant stream of tracer as you hold the trigger down, as they are not fired at the exact same moment. As it is now, the .50 cals put out tracers in groups. Yet the burst of "blind" fire between the tracer groups is very much there and hits its target.

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

p1ngu666
09-04-2004, 03:23 AM
offwhine results
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/p38offwhine.jpg
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/p38offwhine2.jpg
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/p38offwhine3.jpg
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/p38offwhine4.jpg
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/p38offwhine5.jpg

and tracks which may or may not be the above but show the handling of the p38 vs the il2 (2 types) type 2 m i think and type 3 one with the 37mm

http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/renamemetobobdotzip.jpg

the main point is the stall, notice the drastic difference, p38 will flip round similer to a 190 was surposed to irl, while i cant get the il2 tobe anywhere near as snappy. i flew them the same as i could, banging the stick back trying to get il2 too wingtip stall.

if u dont belive me try it yourself, im by no means perfect, heck ive been awake ages, heck if u do belive me try it.

if u dont know why this the stall is wrong, the p38 has engines turn in, they balence out, u effectivly have no torque, u got thrust in simple terms.
iirec the centre of the wing should stall first, so u should mush down, like the il2 in the tracks, if u wingtip stall u have a 190 style stall.

can someone test the bf110 and he111 aswell? i think they stall better than p38.

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p1ngu666
09-04-2004, 03:28 AM
stecher, im wondering if the hits are client side gfx, ah la quake 3 shot gun (the pellets where random, so what u saw and what happened where 2 diff things, dependin on setting).

and yes a random or 2 tracer 2 non would be a better way of having your ammo belts

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p1ngu666
09-04-2004, 03:30 AM
so it we would need to test if the invisible ones do damage

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BfHeFwMe
09-04-2004, 03:39 AM
There's more to the sim than solely the flight modeling. Sure it's not there yet, but it's moving that way. The tactical aspects of manouver with your elements and the ground attack is kick @zz. Overlook the turds, sim still works, many of the planes are very good.

PF should change things up nicely, engine torque and better ground contact routines, one step closer. That should show up nicely on a twin, bet there will be an uproar though over the torque once you loose and engine though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

3.JG51_Stecher
09-04-2004, 03:49 AM
They most certainly do. Online, by myself, I just destroyed a stationary B-17 with only non-tracer fire. So they not only hit, they do damage. I have no doubt however that firing on a human plane in online play will be slightly different. Some rounds are "lost" along with packets. This is a constant for all planes though, not a P-38 issue. This is the reason I've put 6 MK108 rounds into a Mustang and only received a faint smoke trail. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Bottom line, if you suspect not all your rounds online are hitting or doing damage, you are correct, and you are just like everyone else I'm afraid.

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

p1ngu666
09-04-2004, 04:01 AM
how did u mange to destroy it with only non tracer?
given that the ammo is mixed i mean

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Xnomad
09-04-2004, 04:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF513_Sandman:
downside of the J is, it will go into compressibility quickly and it's murder to get out of it before it goes 'sploosh'.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compressibility is not a problem in the "J" model. Just dial in full upward elevator trim and dive like everyone else does, when you want to level out just ease back on the throttle and use combat flaps, you will pull out so steeply that you will probably black out. Bf 109's can't keep up with this, unless they trim too. Is it cheating? I don't know, but what the heck it works and anyone can do the same.

Does anyone know if the P-38 is being reviewed and revised for the PF release?

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Xnomad-Sig.jpg

3.JG51_Stecher
09-04-2004, 04:16 AM
------------------------------
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
how did u mange to destroy it with only non tracer?
given that the ammo is mixed i mean
------------------------------

It's not mixed. They fire in groups when you go by taps. 4 tracer, 4 blind, 4 tracer, 4 blind, on and on. By the way, when I say 4 tracer, 4 blind, etc, I mean one round from each of the 4 .50 cals firing in perfect synchronization. I don't mean 4 rounds from each gun. What you do is put a stationary B-17 on your home base. Taxi over to it and go nose to nose, quite close. Then slightly turn just to the side of its nose between it and the inboard engine and tap until you're sure you've fired a tracer group, which means your next tap will be blind. Swing back over and tap the trigger, swing to the side and tap a tracer group out. Repeat this a few times until the B-17 is destroyed. I must stress that you have to be VERY CAREFUL!!! during this whole process, go slow and be sure. It took me three blind groups at point blank range of blind fire to destroy it.

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

pacettid
09-04-2004, 04:28 AM
Having had many hobbies over the years I have consistently noted that, no matter which hobby you choose, there are certain members who are perfectionists who miss out on alot of fun as a result of it. I'll use the Chevrolet Corvette hobby as an example to illustrate the point.

There was a very nice gentleman in my Corvette club that really loved the car. He studied every reference document he could lay his hands on and could quote every fact, figure and statistic imaginable.

He purchased a car to restore and then spent the rest of the time he owned the car restoring every piece on it to a state of perfection that was not even present on a 'factory fresh' example. He did not get very far, as attaining 'absolute perfection' is a very slow process.

Having an eye for detail and an incredible knowledge of the Corvette, he volunteered to be a carshow judge, and launched his new career by honing his judging skills to a razor sharp edge. During our annual car show he spent a great deal of time pointing out to car owners 'the error of their ways' when it came to correct finishes, undercarraige markings, etc.

After a few years he found that he just couldn't get his car, or his fellow Corvette afficiados to restore to as perfect a state as he felt they should be, so he quit judging, he sold his car, and he left the club.

The whole time he was attempting to attain a state of perfection, the rest of the club members were driving their cars (with all their flaws), going to social events (while he slaved away on his search for perfection), and generally having a blast.

So...all that said, my recommendation is to keep the game, take it for what it is, have fun, and stick around http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

All the best, Don

VMF513_Sandman
09-04-2004, 03:35 PM
everytime i've ever shot at the dirt, its only the tracers that kick up dust

3.JG51_Stecher
09-04-2004, 05:00 PM
I need to make a revision of what I said. Tapping will alternate between visible tracer and blind, but it's not 4 rounds and 4 rounds. Tap A is a burst of 4 tracer rounds and a burst of 4 blind rounds. Tap B is a burst of 4 blind rounds and another burst of 4 blind rounds. So holding down the trigger results in tracer-blind-blind-blind-tracer-blind-blind-blind-tracer. Remember I'm talking about 1 round from each of the 4 guns. All of them kick up dirt and all do damage. Sandman, do you want me to make a track of it?

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

Red_Russian13
09-04-2004, 05:06 PM
Benny;

You said you were done with this game, what, a week ago? Two?

So why are you still here?

I don't think anyone hates you here, but you do get a little carried away sometimes. I think you should follow thebalrogrocks' advice and take a bit of a break. Come back, and maybe you'll appreciate what we have here. Somebody else mentioned it earlier...remember that we've gotten a lot of support, etc, with this sim...maybe we've gotten too used to that, no?

Red Russian

Edit: Spelling errors

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/Red_Russian13/RedRussian.jpg

Wallstein
09-04-2004, 07:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
"---I've completely given up on the game and do not care whether---"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Benny, Benny, my friend! Don´t give up the good game we have. Take a short leave - say a week or two - and get back to our neverending aerial war!

I have been unlucky to find you on any servers I tend to play, 1-3 times a week. I`d like to meet you someday and have a good fight again. You fly the P-38 like a devil http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif The virtual skies are filled with proper opponents yet to get shot down!

Hope to see you again!

Take care
Wallstein

VFA-195 Snacky
09-04-2004, 08:13 PM
If I could change 2 things with the P38J and L right now it would be to add a little more top end speed and have the boosted ailerons and speed break for the J model.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/b_a_presidential_first.jpg
"Navy1, Call the Ball- Roger Ball."

p1ngu666
09-07-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 3.JG51_Stecher:
I need to make a revision of what I said. Tapping will alternate between visible tracer and blind, but it's not 4 rounds and 4 rounds. Tap A is a burst of 4 tracer rounds and a burst of 4 blind rounds. Tap B is a burst of 4 blind rounds and another burst of 4 blind rounds. So holding down the trigger results in tracer-blind-blind-blind-tracer-blind-blind-blind-tracer. Remember I'm talking about 1 round from each of the 4 guns. All of them kick up dirt and all do damage. Sandman, do you want me to make a track of it?

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
http://www.jg51.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah right stecher, i woulda replied earlier but i was banned http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i did a few qmb against 109 g6 and did well, thing i guess is not to go over the limit. gotta get round to watchin vid at zeno's. hopin they soften the stall, cos i feel its to voilent for such a big plane

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Copperhead310th
09-07-2004, 05:33 PM
why is it that Most of the opponents of the P-38/P-47 almost always have a Fw-Run-o-90 or BF- 109 in thier sigs? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

"Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was
a child but it was a lie
that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."Counting Crows

Resident_Jock
09-07-2004, 05:50 PM
I can attest that there are more bullets than only the tracers. I was strafing a Ta-152 that was landing online, and after about a 3 second burst there were MANY puffs of dirt on the ground, easily 4-5 times more than the amount of tracers.

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg

WTE_Galway
09-07-2004, 09:40 PM
a tracer only munition load would be a cool option

bit like the paint oddball fired from his sherman in "Kelly's Heroes"

think about it .. if you get shot at by multiple 0.50 cal firing all tracer you will be certian there is an entire flight behind you, not just one plane, and panic and run http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Korolov
09-07-2004, 09:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
why is it that Most of the opponents of the P-38/P-47 almost always have a Fw-Run-o-90 or BF- 109 in thier sigs? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only opponent I see of the P-38 is BennyMoore...

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

lbhskier37
09-07-2004, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
why is it that Most of the opponents of the P-38/P-47 almost always have a Fw-Run-o-90 or BF- 109 in thier sigs? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
_http://www.310thVFS.com
_
_"Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was
a child but it was a lie
that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."__Counting Crows_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is historically correct as not too many P38s and P47s were attacked by p51s IRL. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/2005VRSCSE.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=lbhkilla&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896)
Official "uber190n00b"

"Big cannons are only for skilless pilots who can't shoot shraight enough to hit a target with a smaller caliber round."-310thcopperhead

-HH- Beebop
09-07-2004, 10:20 PM
I don't claim to have, nor do I have, any real knowledge on whether a particular plane is over/undermodelled or the flight characteristics are "correct"
.
I have flown just a little in real civilian aircraft and as far as I'm concerned, this is the best flight sim I've ever flown based against my Real World experiences.

From a perspective of a "Virtual Pilot" I fly what is available and learn how to best use the planes advantages and disadvanges to help me return safely after each mission. I believe that's what real world pilots did and so I will take what's given me and do the best I can.

Think about it, all those pilots who flew "**** planes". They didn't have the choice we do of choosing another aircraft.

As for the P-38, it's a heckuva ground pounder and I shoot down a fair share of planes with it. Is it perfect compared to the real plane? I don't know and still have tons-o-fun with it. (I'm glad I still have my fire extingquisher though)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9334/Image6.jpg
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BennyMoore
09-07-2004, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
The only opponent I see of the P-38 is BennyMoore...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the contrary, sir, you are one of the most vocal of the opponents in question! You also consistantly ignore all of the data I have offered, presumably because it makes you feel superior to other pilots as the P-38 is currently so much harder to fly than the other planes in the game (and much harder to fly than it was in real life, for the reason of the torque alone, if you refuse to believe me about the speed). And now you accuse me of wanting the P-38 "dumbed down" (for I cannot take your insult in any other way; if you meant otherwise, then please clarify)!

Would you care to post your own reasons for feeling that the P-38 is fine as it is and for believing Oleg's data over official Lockheed and United States Air Force data, as well as a multitude of "anecdotal" pilot accounts? And we all know how Oleg dislikes certain aircraft and allows his bias to show in their modelling. Could not the P-38 be one of these?

Incidentally, I would like to draw attention to the part of my post that you all delight in overlooking. The Air Farce's e-mail to me states that the speeds for the J and L models should be the same! I do not know for certain whether or not this is true, but it does not do to overlook it. Personally, I don't see how adding an airbrake with all of the associated machinery could possibly slow the plane down by twenty kilometers per hour, especially since they added a few hundred horsepower as well! In addition, I would believe a United States Air Force representative over Oleg Maddox any day. Oh, and I also trust the men who flew the planes, something you apparently do not.

Dammerung
09-08-2004, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...believing Oleg's data over official Lockheed and United States Air Force data, as well as a multitude of "anecdotal" pilot accounts? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and I also trust the men who flew the planes, something you apparently do not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Contradicting yourself there buddy? Listen, it's never going to be perfect. Engine Constraints, being the main thing(So no Crazy tricks using torque). Accept what you've got, and it's damn good.

Also, Oleg Maddox wants to make the most realistic sim possible, this does not include bias in certain aircraft. The P-38 is pretty accurate all things considered and I think she's a joy to fly in IL-2. My only real experience flying is in a 152(Just did my first unassisted landing today, damn good for a first time if I do say so myself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif), and IL-2 is a bit more basic, but it's mostly Engine Constraints- Battle Of Britain will have an entire new engine, and surely very realistic torque modeling. In fact, the torque modeling is the only thing I have any serious problems with- Torque in jets = NO NO NO NO NO!

Especially with the Sheer number of Aircraft in IL-2, there's not enough time to Model the quirks of every one of them. The P-38 is a very complicated Airplane, so it's no surprise some things are left out, and I was under the Impression that the L model was SLIGHTLY SLIGHTLY slower than the J, by a few MPH...

I don't get what you're trying to proove in this thread. Go fire up IL-2, fly the damn 38, waste Zero after Zero after Zero, and ask yourself: Did I have fun doing that? I know I do when I put Hispano rounds through his Cockpit.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

WTE_Galway
09-08-2004, 12:33 AM
good luck on going solo shortly Dammerung

3.JG51_Stecher
09-08-2004, 01:10 AM
Here are the P-38 speeds at low and medium altitude.

P-38J
Real Life
369 mph @ 5000 ft
390 mph @ 15000 ft
Forgotten Battles v2.04
369 mph @ 5000 ft
391 mph @ 15000 ft

P-38L
Real Life
360 mph @ 5000 ft
390 mph @ 15000 ft
Forgotten Battles v2.04
362 mph @ 5000 ft
382 mph @ 15000 ft

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

p1ngu666
09-08-2004, 01:45 AM
the figures for the L used are possibly wrong, simply someone copied over specs AGES ago and they've been used as correct where they arent.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

u do get odd issues wid the p38 aswell, like u can get a bouncin effect in turns, especially if u fire the cannon (which shakes the plane a surprising amount sometimes)

there will be more p38s in pf, so maybe itll get a overhaul/tidy up which it needs

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt;NO SPAM!
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JG53Frankyboy
09-08-2004, 02:15 AM
wait for PF. than , i realy think, the P-38 drivers will have found thier ideal huntinggrounds . for mmyself in looking forward to it too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i like that beast

we had already some Pacific missions in VOW1 - P38 vs A6M5 , was alwasy lot of fun and a right flown P-38 was untouchabel

Korolov
09-08-2004, 02:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
On the contrary, sir, blah blah blah
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vocal opponent, because time and time again I've found that no matter the performance of the plane, it doesn't do any good if the pilot just stinks. I flew the P-47D-27 when they said it was porked - and was pretty good with it, if I may say so myself. Many people were complaining about problems with it (some, like the roll rates were backed up well, so I've no argument there) that they forgot to stop and think "Hey, maybe I should try a different strategy with the plane, or different settings. Maybe it would work better."

Sure enough, they've managed to get the plane that most of them want, and me, personally, I don't notice many changes. I approach the P-38 in a similar fashion: its a plane modeled with a few problems, but is otherwise deadly if used right, and if the conditions are good for it. It cleans house in *any* PTO scenario you can do with the current planeset, and averages out against ETO opponents. This goes with the sources I have on it, which suggests it was merely OK in the ETO, and da bomb in the PTO.

It could use some fixing for high altitude performance, which seems bugged since 2.04, and compressability could perhaps be increased by about 100kmh, but otherwise it's a solid performer that makes a good kill-in-one-pass platform. With all those guns in the nose, and one of the few USAAF planes equipped with a cannon, anything that finds itself in front of a P-38 is in a world of hurt. If *anything* gets on the P-38's six, it is TOAST, period. It's the size of a light bomber, maybe even a medium bomber - you're definately going to have a hard time MISSING that plane. This leads us to believe it is NOT a turning plane, despite what good turning characteristics it has, and leaves it to excel in a shoot and scoot style of fighting. With a small profile from direct 12 or 6, this makes it effecient as long as you don't "broadside." Turnfighting leads to broadsiding, and the majority of pilots online are very good gunners.

As such, I will dare to say, "learn to think."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Would you care to post your own reasons for feeling that the P-38 is fine as it is and for believing Oleg's data over official Lockheed and United States Air Force data, as well as a multitude of "anecdotal" pilot accounts? And we all know how Oleg dislikes certain aircraft and allows his bias to show in their modelling. Could not the P-38 be one of these?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point A) Your data is no different than the data listed in the game's object viewer or other published sources.

Point B) Success with the P-38 is ENTIRELY dependent upon luck, patience, teamwork and skill. You need luck not to be detected before you reach a point of advantage. You need patience to get that advantage. You need teamwork in order to ensure that a lucky (or unlucky) bandit can be taken out quickly (since again, evasion is limited to heading to the dirt, which nullifies your advantage.) You need skill in order to make sure your shots connect and at the right point. Failure to supply 3 of the 4 will result in catastrophic failure and give the effect that the plane sucks.

Point C) Pilot interviews and claims are full of holes. I've heard about russian pilots claiming 50 aircraft destroyed all by themselves, or numerous claims by bomber crews of downed enemy fighters, tank kills that turn out to be fuel trucks going boom... the list is endless. How can you expect the whole story from one point of view, 60 years after the fact? It only adds one small piece of the pie, and while I may not agree with Oleg totally denying to accept "pilot A says this," I do think that even if he did, it would likely not mean much.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Incidentally, I would like to draw attention to the part of my post that you all delight in overlooking. The Air Farce's e-mail to me states that the speeds for the J and L models should be the same! I do not know for certain whether or not this is true, but it does _not_ do to overlook it. Personally, I don't see how adding an airbrake with all of the associated machinery could possibly slow the plane down by twenty kilometers per hour, especially since they added a few hundred horsepower as well! In addition, I would believe a United States Air Force representative over Oleg Maddox any day. Oh, and I also trust the men who flew the planes, something you apparently do not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, the Air Force is thinking of the P-38J-25 vs the P-38L-5, most likely. Both of those planes are almost the same, with the J-25 being lighter. HOWEVER, the P-38J we have is a J-10 - no air brakes, no aileron boost. You have to remember theres a lot of additional equipment for that, so it seems entirely plausible to me that 20kmh could be lost with the installation of both. Remember, the P-38 gets its speed by being as clean a airframe as possible. When it "dirties up," it's going to lose some speed.

Second, the P-38 is a HEAVY plane, coming in at around 21,000 pounds fully loaded. The addition of say, 200 horsepower for each engine is NOT going to make it 20kmh faster. You would essentially have to add 500hp to each engine to get that kind of improvement.

Lastly, we also have to remember theres limitations to what game software can do. The engine is coming on 4+ years now, and it is by all means barely keeping up with recent technology. Note that our CEM system is hardly CEM, and doesn't work properly. All aircraft don't have the torque they were known for, or bad characteristics, or even good characteristics. What this game has done is walked a fine line between the characteristics of each aircraft, and to demand more we'll have to wait for a new engine.

For now, all we can do is take it as is or leave it. If you don't like that in a game, CFS3 is around the corner, and it offers the customization you crave so you can make the plane fly exactly how you think it flies. For me, I see few flaws in the way the P-38 is modeled in the game now, and make a killing even with the flaws.

"I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it, than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

3.JG51_Stecher
09-08-2004, 03:11 AM
------------------------------
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the figures for the L used are possibly wrong, simply someone copied over specs AGES ago and they've been used as correct where they arent.
------------------------------

What makes you think that? First of all, the P-38L did not receive a power boost of a few hundred horsepower. That was between the H and the J, at a difference of 185 hp, using the same engine with a more efficient cooling system allowing for more power. The P-38J used the V-1710-89/91 engines which gave a military rating of 1425 hp and WEP rating of 1600 hp. The P-38L used the V-1710-111/113 which gave 1475 hp at military power and 1600 hp at WEP. This is only a difference of 50 hp nonboosted and the exact same power at WEP. Meanwhile the P-38L (carrying over from the J-25) added the electrical recovery brakes, hydraulic aileron boosting system, redesigned cockpit heating system, and new internal cooling system. These things add weight to an airframe. Amounts differ with sources, but the bottom line is that it was heavier while producing the exact same max power. That leads to a slight decrease in speed, albeit well worth the additions of better handling and not going numb in the cockpit from a heater that doesn't work.

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190hollandsig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

[This message was edited by 3.JG51_Stecher on Wed September 08 2004 at 02:34 AM.]

Da_Godfatha
09-08-2004, 04:31 AM
The P-38 is my favorite bird. I just hope they get rid of the "Bunny-hopping" it does on landing.
No, I don't need facts. It is just my opinion. And, it must be a early J model, models from J-25 had dive-recovery flaps. Most earlier J models were re-equipped with them. (Squadron/Signal:P-38 in Action, both versions)

DaGodfatha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Rab03
09-08-2004, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
bit like the paint oddball fired from his sherman in "Kelly's Heroes"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Oddball's stuff would be great http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. And when I remember the blunt expression on his and Kelly's face when they've hit that Tiger with paint round http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

With this non-lethal paint ammo this sim could be the first paintball sim in the world http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

You can even make in-flight music consisting of his words: "Positive waves, Moriarty, positive waves", and for the crash music: "Again those negative waves!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

To BennyMoore:
Sincerely, I do not ynderstand your reasons to give up on this game. This game is, definitely, the best WWII sim there is (to go step further, the best sim of all). I love to fly P-38. I never (offline) found any particular reason to dislike her. Although I cannot handle some aircraft particularly well, that is not the reason to blame the entire game.

As for the manual excerpts you've stated, I have a pilots/mechanics manual for Bf109E. A lot of things about the plane are missing from it, believe me.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

WUAF_Badsight
09-08-2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rab03:

Sincerely, I do not understand your reasons to give up on this game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

his favourite plane , the P-38 , is not as good as he thinks it should be

so far the only thing pointed wrong that actually is wrong , is the in-ability to reach its stated Object Viewer alts

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
09-08-2004, 05:09 AM
Yawn. Not this again. Sure, let`s ignore the fact that making the P38 perfect (IF indeed it is undermodelled) would mean reworking every other aircraft also to make things actually fair and correct. let`s forget the damn fire extinguisher still works.

Let`s just make the P38 perfect and ignore every other aircraft in IL2/FB.

sigh...

(And no, I didn`t waste my time reading every post here).

WOLFMondo
09-08-2004, 05:09 AM
In a 1943 setting the P38J is deadly. Im not sure how correct it is but I use it like a Run-0-9 or a FW-run-90! Hit and run attacks, use the energy and acceleration to run and climb and it works. Im by no means the greatest of pilots and not that great in the P38 but its a good plane and lives up to it reputation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Point B) Success with the P-38 is ENTIRELY dependent upon luck, patience, teamwork and skill. You need luck not to be detected before you reach a point of advantage. You need patience to get that advantage. You need teamwork in order to ensure that a lucky (or unlucky) bandit can be taken out quickly (since again, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I have read the P38 use in the pacific was done all on teamwork. Working together, using squad tactics. Single P38's or pilots that went of by themselves were considered sitting ducks. I feel that with allot of the undermodelled whining **** that its down to people not using the aircraft as intended or as was used in WW2. On DF servers team work does happen but its rare. The P38 isn't to be used by itself but with a wingman or squad.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

SeaFireLIV
09-08-2004, 05:24 AM
Exactly right, WOLFMondo. It took teamwork with the P38, the REAL pilots would NEVER dream of taking on anyone alone (most fighters wouldn`t).

Bennymoore KNOWS he`s wrong, because he bases his moans on his ownline 1v1 dogfighting, YET uses real world data to try and prove a point when in reality fighters fought as teams.

But he doesn`t want to know. Fine. If he wants to shoot himself in the foot, fine too. But don`t try and drag others with you - it won`t happen. You`re flatter yourself if you think you`re that important.

If you really flew FB for what it is for, a slight undermodelling in your view of the P38 would not make you abandon an entire flight simulation of this quality.

VMF513_Sandman
09-08-2004, 05:59 AM
hey badsight...if benny thinks this 38 is fubar, he would have a load of fun flip-floppin around in cfs2's model ROTFL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

remember that only me, vmf513_bigmac, and demons7th_hawk were the only 1's in midway that had the 'balls' to take up p-38's exclusively against all comers...and what was the usual whine about in the air.....'that 38 is a mod'...yes or no?

this p-38 is 3x's easier to fly than cfs2's. granted, cfs2's was the F model, but jesus christ, it would snap stall worse than the p-40 of fb's v1.0...maybe the old timers of fb remember how the p-40 used to fly back then. its a bad mfr if used properly..and methinks 9 out of 10 pilots that take this bird huntin (me included) get entirely too greedy; and pay for it in spades http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif.
any1 that can shoot deflections accurately with either cannon, mg's, or a combination of in this ship should be recongnized as an elite gunner. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

WUAF_Badsight
09-08-2004, 06:05 AM
well Sandman it has engine torque which it shouldnt but that is a limitation of FB & is beyond debate

the max Alts for the P-38s are over 10,000 meters & although planes do show differences at 12k as compared to 10k , Oleg Maddox has said way back at FB's release that FB models a changing atmosphere up to 10k

that surely has something to do with planes with a max alt over 10k not being able to reach them

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VMF513_Sandman
09-08-2004, 06:08 AM
i belive we were able to get to at least 25,000 feet in cfs2, but seems that that's dam near impossible with fb. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

WUAF_Badsight
09-08-2004, 06:11 AM
i got the J to 12,400 & i believe 12,500 was possible

i stop trying because 361st_MapleTiger said it wouldnt go over 11,400 meters & being a whole kilometer higher than what he said it wouldnt go over was enough for me

Object Viewer says 13,500 meters-ish is what it should do

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MEGILE
09-08-2004, 06:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted 08-09-04 05:08
i belive we were able to get to at least 25,000 feet in cfs2, but seems that that's dam near impossible with fb

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn near impossible? 7 620 meters? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51lightj.jpg
"Copper, you're smoking crack" - VF-11 Vadge http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

joeap
09-08-2004, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted 08-09-04 05:08
i belive we were able to get to at least 25,000 feet in cfs2, but seems that that's dam near impossible with fb

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn near impossible? 7 620 meters? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51lightj.jpg
"Copper, you're smoking crack" - VF-11 Vadge http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Probably forgot FB is in metric (the red speedbar alt is always in meters) have to look at the gauges.

Da_Godfatha
09-08-2004, 08:04 AM
I think most of us think that because the P-38 was "THE" fighter plane in the Pacific, it should be Uber in the game. Given the right parameters, it can be a effective aircraft. As a mudmover onwhine, if I have good top cover, most targets don't have a chance. If I remember, the 9th AF used it and the P-47 very succesfully as a mudmover. Me, I like the plane, and yes, I do get a litte mad when I don't win against a 109 or Ki-84. But don't let me catch them by take-off or landing, a 420Kmh run over the airfield will ruin their day!!

DaGodfatha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

p1ngu666
09-08-2004, 08:34 AM
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P38.html
9 and abit minutes in is the stall stuff

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt;NO SPAM!
&lt;badsight&gt;my name is tracy and pingu is the Anitchrist of Combat Flight Simmers
&lt;lexx_luthor&gt;flowers across the land in BoB

dieg777
09-08-2004, 09:12 AM
this is as boring as other "undermodled" vs "uber" arguments. If you really think that the performance is so bad then dont play the sim. I threw out CFS after two weeks as I hated the flight models, but enjoy IL2. As others have pointed out this game develops and improvements will be found in PF and BOB.

People supply all kind of data to prove their points but are blinkered to other peoples arguments. Dont rely on hand picked pilots recall for example see Deadly Sky by John C McManus which contains interviews with USAAF pilots who were not endeared by P-38 in europe.

It was a fine plane and filled a vital role in escorting bombers until thunderbolts and mustangs were developed but it like all others had its limitations.

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

ZG77_Nagual
09-08-2004, 09:48 AM
P38 Thread (http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p38.html)

Pretty interesting.

heywooood
09-08-2004, 10:35 AM
very telling articles there that cover alot of ground and also lead to more questions.

But the main thrust is that pilots were sent into combat in the P-38 that were not as familiar with the airplane, and in some cases with air to air combat, as they needed to be.

In the hands of veteran combat pilots that also had more than 100 hrs in the Lightning type, it was a far more lethal and manoeverable machine apparently.

Several key methods of handleing this beast were required knowledge of the pilot and in fact these methods needed to be mastered to the point of being second nature, done without conscious effort on the part of the veteran P-38 driver to maximize the airplanes effectiveness.

Without proper control inputs at the correct timing, the Lightning suffers greatly with regard to its full potential in air combat. Without spending alot of money on extra equipment and time in setup, we virtual pilots cannot properly explore this planes' potential in FB/PF...you will need dual throttle levers at least.

I guess we should be glad that we wont suffer the frostbite from the early versions poor cockpit heating... or from the length (or lack of length) of our 'relief' tube...


http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"check your puns"

BfHeFwMe
09-08-2004, 10:51 AM
Of course it's pooched, all twin and four engine planes in the game are, they simply don't have a multi-engine handling or stall model. You can't fix whats not even modeled. Why do you think they held off on releasing more twins like the B-25's and Ju-88's?

You want capable multi's, PF 'may' have them fixed with the new torque model added, hopefully. As it sits now, differing up the engine power on either engine plays no role in stall, spin, or recovery behavior. For all intents you are flying a single engine aircraft, there are no advantages of a twins flight behavior that are useable, yet.

crazyivan1970
09-08-2004, 10:55 AM
I`m going to uninstall AEP today, had enough of it.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Korolov
09-08-2004, 11:56 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

BennyMoore
09-08-2004, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dammerung:
Contradicting yourself there buddy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a deliberate misinterpretation, or an honest mistake? I ask you.

Observe.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...believing [Oleg's data] over [official Lockheed and United States Air Force data, as well as a multitude of "anecdotal" pilot accounts]? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See? No contradition. "Anecdotal" (put in quotes because people love to use that word to attack pilot accounts) goes along with the Air Force part, not with the Oleg part.

Friendly_flyer
09-08-2004, 11:14 PM
So, what BfHeFwMe is saying is that the lacks in Lightning performance and handlings come from the FM model being designed to handle single engin aircrafts? I hope there is a way to fix this, I was rather looking forward to the Mosquito.

Fly friendly!

Petter B¸ckman
Norway

KSS_Shrike_UK
09-09-2004, 06:03 AM
Well said Extreme_One

Agree totally
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Shrike
Joint Squadron Leader
Kindred Spirits Squadron
kss.dogfighters.net

Hawgdog
09-09-2004, 06:21 AM
BWA HAAA HAAA HAAAA

I like it. I hate it when someone flying that dam thing takes unlimited amount of fire and its engines catch on fire only to go out a second later. Whats even worse is when someone shoot me down flying the dang thing!
What a machine, I really thought it was OVER modeled.
toodles-

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!
Remember our Mistflugzeugs, long live the Mistflugzeug

BennyMoore
09-10-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Even worse than the wrong torque in IL-2 is the complete absence of high angle of attack stalls. It's always a spin, but never, ever a stall. It doesn't matter if your flight is coordinated or not, or even if your engine is on or not. That is the single greatest flaw in IL-2. The second is, of course, the torque problems. And then we have the fact that the rudder is quite unnecessary, since we have near autocoordination (which is, of course, unrealistic). Following closely is the utterly wrong taxiing (all aircraft taxi like they have tricycle gear) and the instantanious stoppage of a roll by neutralizing the controls (the game ignores Newton's law about inertia).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite contrary to what someone said in this thread (Badsight?), my reasons for quitting this game go much further than unfair incorrectly modelled aircraft and Russian patriotic biases.

I can only pray that the folks who made Lock On, or someone even better, will make a realistic World War Two aerial combat simulator. Alas! I think that this will never happen, and that IL-2 is the best that the world shall ever see.

I will say this. Flying in IL-2 is remarkably simular to flying a real life Cessna. Oleg seems to have done a good job of bringing his experiences in a real aircraft into code.

WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Alas! I think that this will never happen, and that IL-2 is the best that the world shall ever see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

just wait till next year !

a new " Battle of Britian " game is on its way ! ! !

joy !

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif