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View Full Version : XBOX ONE will not charge a fee to trade used games !



MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 01:17 PM
Its official guys XBOX confirmed via twitter that the reports that gamers will be charged a fee to trade and play used games are false and are working to get these rumors and peices of information removed here is a link to the official tweet !!


https://twitter.com/XboxSupport3/status/336924786410278912

pacmanate
05-22-2013, 01:41 PM
That's good for people that want the X1. Wonder how Wired even got that info then?

Rugterwyper32
05-22-2013, 01:53 PM
"But what if you want to bring a game disc to a friend's house and play there? You'll have to pay a fee—and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game—in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said.

"The bits that are on that disc, you can give it to your friend and they can install it on an Xbox One," he said. "They would then have to purchase the right to play that game through Xbox Live."

"They would be paying the same price we paid, or less?" we asked.

"Let’s assume it’s a new game, so the answer is yes, it will be the same price," Harrison said."

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

I will trust that tweet over the official info that's been spouted out of their mouths in media outlets when it snows in Guatemala City. Ain't happening.
Smells like some serious damage control to me. They see the backlash and they're trying to backpedal now. The damage's done, Microsoft. I'm set for the eventual PS4 price drop and new model in a few years by now.

pacmanate
05-22-2013, 01:56 PM
dun goofed

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 02:07 PM
That's good for people that want the X1. Wonder how Wired even got that info then?


No idea but as you can see they are working to get these rumors cleared up from various news broadcasters, i have put my deposit down already through game but i am considering buying the PS4 also ? i have not decided yet, if i do il buy them both on the same day, one for each room :).

But i thinks its very good news i mean the used games market is huge, especially for companies like gamestop and game, and if Microsoft want to stay in good stead with retailers banning used games or restricting their use is a sure fire way of pissing them off !

ProletariatPleb
05-22-2013, 02:10 PM
GameStop President Confirms PS4 and Xbox One Games Can be Resold

http://gamingbolt.com/gamestop-president-confirms-ps4-and-xbox-one-games-can-be-resold (http://gamingbolt.com/gamestop-president-confirms-ps4-and-xbox-one-games-can-be-resold)

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 02:13 PM
GameStop President Confirms PS4 and Xbox One Games Can be Resold

http://gamingbolt.com/gamestop-president-confirms-ps4-and-xbox-one-games-can-be-resold (http://gamingbolt.com/gamestop-president-confirms-ps4-and-xbox-one-games-can-be-resold)

This what i am saying it makes sense form a business point of view that MS and Sony would resort to this kind of practice .

Legendz54
05-22-2013, 02:15 PM
"But what if you want to bring a game disc to a friend's house and play there? You'll have to pay a fee—and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game—in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said.

"The bits that are on that disc, you can give it to your friend and they can install it on an Xbox One," he said. "They would then have to purchase the right to play that game through Xbox Live."

"They would be paying the same price we paid, or less?" we asked.

"Let’s assume it’s a new game, so the answer is yes, it will be the same price," Harrison said."

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

I will trust that tweet over the official info that's been spouted out of their mouths in media outlets when it snows in Guatemala City. Ain't happening.
Smells like some serious damage control to me. They see the backlash and they're trying to backpedal now. The damage's done, Microsoft. I'm set for the eventual PS4 price drop and new model in a few years by now.


http://youtu.be/BzVmPsqHDDQ

poptartz20
05-22-2013, 03:32 PM
well that's a [edit]. Umm... I would have liked it better if you did have to pay though. Ha! I'm not the biggest fan of Xbox anyways.

also since we are getting our facts straight. The system does but doesn't require an always online connection. It needs to check in every 24 hours buut... you don't have to be online to play? This system sounds troubled.

lothario-da-be
05-22-2013, 03:44 PM
http://youtu.be/BzVmPsqHDDQ
haha this, i was like " And all the other sh*t?"

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 03:52 PM
"But what if you want to bring a game disc to a friend's house and play there? You'll have to pay a fee—and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game—in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said.

"The bits that are on that disc, you can give it to your friend and they can install it on an Xbox One," he said. "They would then have to purchase the right to play that game through Xbox Live."

"They would be paying the same price we paid, or less?" we asked.

"Let’s assume it’s a new game, so the answer is yes, it will be the same price," Harrison said."

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

I will trust that tweet over the official info that's been spouted out of their mouths in media outlets when it snows in Guatemala City. Ain't happening.
Smells like some serious damage control to me. They see the backlash and they're trying to backpedal now. The damage's done, Microsoft. I'm set for the eventual PS4 price drop and new model in a few years by now.

Some real confusion about..


If you want to play at a friends house - you have a few options, for free - from what I have gathered..


You can sign in with your own Gamertag [same as now, passports downloads etc are linked to the tag and console...]

or

Use a USB key and transfer your profile - if they do not have internet..


And, Is the Xbox One the ONLY console doing it?

I'm sure the whole situation over one use codes will become clear - Sony have yet to officially state IF they will use them as far as I can tell ? - they have said they are not 'blocking' used games - which tbh MS are not, just retail copies come with a one use code [like the passports we currently have on some]

Until Sony state loud and clear - they don't use these codes - people shouldn't start jumping to assumptions, one way or the other...


And no, I haven't already decided on which console [if any] I'm getting - I'm waiting til the fog of war clears, and we see some REAL footage from them both [I don't count the PC footage which Sony used as proof of final hardware - sorry but Killzone 2 still hangs in my memory!] from E3 ;)

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 04:04 PM
Some real confusion about..


If you want to play at a friends house - you have a few options, for free - from what I have gathered..


You can sign in with your own Gamertag [same as now, passports downloads etc are linked to the tag and console...]

or

Use a USB key and transfer your profile - if they do not have interent..


I'm sure the whole situation over one use codes will become clear - even Sony have yet to officially state IF they will use them - they have said they are not 'blocking' used games - which tbh MS are not, just retail copies come with a one use code [like the passports we currently have on some]

Until Sony state loud and clear - they don't use these codes - people shouldn't start jumping to assumptions, one way or the other...

I agree 100% with this, i mean PS4 for example at Sony's reveal all we saw was the control pad and the specs on paper rather than the actual console in the flesh so without sounding cynical there is no valid proof that Sony's offering can do half of what it can say, suffice to say i appreciate they are holding out for E3 were will see both consoles in action and to be honest i am not expecting the gameplay experience to be any different from eachother rather than exactly the same, IMO its all about the fanbase this time around and personal preference .

I am thinking on the lines of the lock code will have something to do with the additional content you get with a game when you buy it fresh out of a store ( Brand new ) i could be very wrong but think about this for example when you buy a pre owned game that came with extra content for free you always see a disclaimer on the box saying ask instore for additional content which implies the activation code for this content has been used ! so it could be possible MS are developing new ways so that if a person buys a pre owned game they will be able to access the addional content ? like i said i could be wrong but its just a thought.

But half of what ive seen about logging, game Passports ect its all happening now so i dont see why the next gen would be any different and it would not make much business sense because store CX Exchange who deal in preowned games specificaly will go out of business which i am sure MS and Sony would not want to be the root cause of a noble second hand game store going down the toilet thus causing unemployment ? its not good business sense and MS's tweet confirming these rumours are false is enough for me.

The Media features and other forms of TV, Movie and music platforms are what set the two consoles apart , this is what the console reveal was all about to show everything its capable off.. E3 will be all gaming.

lothario-da-be
05-22-2013, 04:11 PM
I agree 100% with this, i mean PS4 for example at Sony's reveal all we saw was the control pad and the specs on paper rather than the actual console in the flesh so without sounding cynical there is no valid proof that Sony's offering can do half of what it can say, suffice to say i appreciate they are holding out for E3 were will see both consoles in action and to be honest i am not expecting the gameplay experience to be any different from eachother rather than exactly the same, IMO its all about the fanbase this time around and personal preference .

I am thinking on the lines of the lock code will have something to do with the additional content you get with a game when you buy it fresh out of a store ( Brand new ) i could be very wrong but think about this for example when you buy a pre owned game that came with extra content for free you always see a disclaimer on the box saying ask instore for additional content which implies the activation code for this content has been used ! so it could be possible MS are developing new ways so that if a person buys a pre owned game they will be able to access the addional content ? like i said i could be wrong but its just a thought.

But half of what ive seen about logging, game Passports ect its all happening now so i dont see why the next gen would be any different and it would not make much business sense because store CX Exchange who deal in preowned games specificaly will go out of business which i am sure MS and Sony would not want to be the root cause of a noble second hand game store going down the toilet thus causing unemployment ? its not good business sense and MS's tweet confirming these rumours are false is enough for me.

The Media features and other forms of TV, Movie and music platforms are what set the two consoles apart , this is what the console reveal was all about to show everything its capable off.. E3 will be all gaming.
At least we saw KZ shadow fall.

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 04:15 PM
At least we saw KZ shadow fall.

But you did not see the console neither did we see actualy gameplay footage from the console, atleast with MS they showed off exactly what its can do which is ironic because people was slating that we would not see the new XBOX till E3 just because Sony has chosen to do this.

Sony are not the market leaders in gaming and are not leading the way as to how products should be marketed IMO opinion XBOX and Playstation will be equal and their will be no supremacy over the one because as i said its all down to prefference and fanbase.

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 04:26 PM
At least we saw KZ shadow fall.

running on a PC..?


Been tricked before by Killzone..


Killzone 2 'gameplay' trailer anyone..?

STDlyMcStudpants
05-22-2013, 06:11 PM
From this interview, it seems to me that we will indeed be paying to play or borrow used games...
Even if we go over to our buddy's home.
The games are linked to your gamer tag, not your system.
So if you lend games you wre going to have to lend your log in info too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y508_rXPogQ

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 06:14 PM
From this interview, it seems to me that we will indeed be paying to play or borrow used games...
Even if we go over to our buddy's home.
The games are linked to your gamer tag, not your system.
So if you lend games you wre going to have to lend your log in info too.
So, same as currently with online passes.

keys linked to gamertag - so sign in or usb your profile at friends house [as currently] - if you lending games then that's different..

I expect the PS4 to do similar, they haven't said anything apart from they don't block used games - some careful wording maybe?


Also EA are dropping online passes.. have to ask why... ?


Might be MS are the first to drop this bombshell..


Not blocking used games - is not the same as not locking them to profiles /one use codes.. Since MS have said they don't 'block' them...

STDlyMcStudpants
05-22-2013, 06:55 PM
So, same as currently with online passes.

keys linked to gamertag - so sign in or usb your profile at friends house [as currently] - if you lending games then that's different..

I expect the PS4 to do similar, they haven't said anything apart from they don't block used games - some careful wording maybe?


Also EA are dropping online passes.. have to ask why... ?


Might be MS are the first to drop this bombshell..


Not blocking used games - is not the same as not locking them to profiles /one use codes.. Since MS have said they don't 'block' them...
EA dropped online passes with a smile and an evil laugh in their minds because they (as strong microsoft partners) knew what they were going to do haha
"Good news guys, we heard the feedback....(we had online passes since Last Gen PS2 and XBOX)..and have decided to listen and give the gamers what they want, no more on;line passes!!! :) wooo!!"
Did they buy it, are they starting to love us again?
I believe so...
Excellent >:)
muahahahahaha

Edit: Yes you are correct, they are not BLOCKING used games, you can re sell and buy 2nd hand games, you just have to pay a fee to be able to install it on your xbox..and im sure they will have a checking system so people arent just passing around discs..liek you have to put that disc in every month or it deactivates itself from being playable until you insert that disc with your unique code again.

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 07:05 PM
So, same as currently with online passes.

keys linked to gamertag - so sign in or usb your profile at friends house [as currently] - if you lending games then that's different..

I expect the PS4 to do similar, they haven't said anything apart from they don't block used games - some careful wording maybe?


Also EA are dropping online passes.. have to ask why... ?


Might be MS are the first to drop this bombshell..


Not blocking used games - is not the same as not locking them to profiles /one use codes.. Since MS have said they don't 'block' them...

His first Words was " As far as i know " so considering the fact this was yesterday that tells he was not 100% certain and going by the tweets this morning says otherwise.

lothario-da-be
05-22-2013, 07:07 PM
But you did not see the console neither did we see actualy gameplay footage from the console, atleast with MS they showed off exactly what its can do which is ironic because people was slating that we would not see the new XBOX till E3 just because Sony has chosen to do this.

Sony are not the market leaders in gaming and are not leading the way as to how products should be marketed IMO opinion XBOX and Playstation will be equal and their will be no supremacy over the one because as i said its all down to prefference and fanbase.
I prefer to see less then realy bad things.

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 07:12 PM
I prefer to see less then realy bad things.

But you saw PS3 game being run on a PC ? which totally defeats the object of a console reveal ? the point is at least with the XBOX you actualy the console running as it was intended, like i said personally i don't think the PS4 is going to any richer game experience than the XBOX one .. they will be exactly the same.

ProletariatPleb
05-22-2013, 07:21 PM
But you saw PS3 game being run on a PC ? which totally defeats the object of a console reveal ? the point is at least with the XBOX you actualy the console running as it was intended, like i said personally i don't think the PS4 is going to any richer game experience than the XBOX one .. they will be exactly the same.
Did we see any games on the Xbox either?

Call of Duty had all that wireframe stuff, had to be PC.

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 07:26 PM
Edit: Yes you are correct, they are not BLOCKING used games, you can re sell and buy 2nd hand games, you just have to pay a fee to be able to install it on your xbox..and im sure they will have a checking system so people arent just passing around discs..liek you have to put that disc in every month or it deactivates itself from being playable until you insert that disc with your unique code again.

My blocking comment also applied to PS4 - they stated they are not blocking used games - however that does not mean they won't do the same as MS and charge you for a new key..?


Never seen them say that, unless I missed it?

[careful wording from them ;)]


Did we see any games on the Xbox either?

Call of Duty had all that wireframe stuff, had to be PC.

Forza was stated as running on the console, as was the reveal trailer for CoD - that was all in game by the look of it...

So least something was on the console :)


The making of /behind the scenes / comparison video - which your referring too - was PC for the wireframe stuff I expect - but comparison shots between MW3 and new game = most likely Xbox [or ps4lol]



Anywhooo - I'm sure all will become clear.. ;)

pacmanate
05-22-2013, 07:35 PM
Reading a few articles on how Microsoft reps are giving out different info from each other, thats where the false info is coming from.


Lets talk about Transistors instead.

montagemik
05-22-2013, 07:36 PM
"But what if you want to bring a game disc to a friend's house and play there? You'll have to pay a fee—and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game—in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said.

"The bits that are on that disc, you can give it to your friend and they can install it on an Xbox One," he said. "They would then have to purchase the right to play that game through Xbox Live."

"They would be paying the same price we paid, or less?" we asked.

"Let’s assume it’s a new game, so the answer is yes, it will be the same price," Harrison said."

http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825

I will trust that tweet over the official info that's been spouted out of their mouths in media outlets when it snows in Guatemala City. Ain't happening.
Smells like some serious damage control to me. They see the backlash and they're trying to backpedal now. The damage's done, Microsoft. I'm set for the eventual PS4 price drop and new model in a few years by now.

If that 'Twitter' is true ............... It sounds exactly like damage limitation & a rethink before launch .

Activation Fees on top of 'Subscribed' Online was a ridiculous concept by any standards .
( i'm assuming Microsoft will still charge to play online ................Be a slap in the face to longstanding 360 owners if they suddenly made X-Box LIVE FREE )

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 07:51 PM
TBH - if Sony do it - then we may be stuck with one use games.. Unless MS do drop it - and poach all of the PS4 players ;)


If Sony state officially they don't charge to use second hand games, which they haven't yet - then Microsoft would be silly to do so..

Odd thing for MS to just decide to do though, unless they thought Sony were /are doing the same?


There is a lot of time from now till release - for things to change, though the longer they leave it - the harder it will be to correct the rumours...

montagemik
05-22-2013, 09:07 PM
TBH - if Sony do it - then we may be stuck with one use games.. Unless MS do drop it - and poach all of the PS4 players ;)


If Sony state officially they don't charge to use second hand games, which they haven't yet - then Microsoft would be silly to do so..

Odd thing for MS to just decide to do though, unless they thought Sony were /are doing the same?


There is a lot of time from now till release - for things to change, though the longer they leave it - the harder it will be to correct the rumours...


Don't get me wrong , I think paying a fee just to be able to play pre-owned games is a Ridiculous idea for Any console (Sony or Microsoft) to implement .
I understand needing to buy a new passport for pre-owned games to be able to play 'Online Multiplayers' , but not to simply play single player / offline campaigns .........

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 09:42 PM
Don't start playing PC games then..

:(

ProletariatPleb
05-22-2013, 09:50 PM
don't start playing pc games then..

:(
...............

Right in the feels!

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 11:15 PM
Well tbh we have been locked into one use codes for years - on 90% of games :(

Or Steam accounts, Origin etc etc..


Consoles have had it easy tbh [and no that's not an official Ubisoft statement...]

ProletariatPleb
05-22-2013, 11:17 PM
Well tbh we have been locked into one use codes for years - on 90% of games :(

Or Steam accounts, Origin etc etc..


Consoles have had it easy tbh [and no that's not an official Ubisoft statement...]
That kind of what I meant with feels, lol you're reminding me of our cursed fate.

Mr_Shade
05-22-2013, 11:19 PM
That kind of what I meant with feels, lol you're reminding me of our cursed fate.
it's a chain we have to wear to have uber graphics and bragging rights ;)

MasterAssasin84
05-22-2013, 11:26 PM
Did we see any games on the Xbox either?

Call of Duty had all that wireframe stuff, had to be PC.

We saw actual footage from COD and we see footage from Quantum which was XBOX footage ! the point being that at least we saw it rather than someone standing on stage blowing wind and describing that its going to be the best thing since slice bread.. IMO i belive these consoles not going to be that different from a gameplay experience .

ProletariatPleb
05-22-2013, 11:28 PM
it's a chain we have to wear to have uber graphics and bragging rights ;)
That chain isn't so bad really, I don't mind it atleast. What I mind is certain companies(like one which didn't make an official statement four posts back) not providing for PC users properly. Sure we're mostly nitpicky elitist people :P but it's not that hard...


We saw actual footage from COD and we see footage from Quantum which was XBOX footage ! the point being that at least we saw it rather than someone standing on stage blowing wind and describing that its going to be the best thing since slice bread.. IMO i belive these consoles not going to be that different from a gameplay experience .
Chill, just confirming it we actually saw any real footage or not.

pacmanate
05-23-2013, 07:43 AM
I hope y'all PC's break *runs away*

ProletariatPleb
05-23-2013, 07:48 AM
I hope y'all PC's break *runs away*
They aren't made of crap quality plastic :P

pacmanate
05-23-2013, 08:04 AM
They aren't made of crap quality plastic :P

I hope y'all PC's overheat *runs away again*

ProletariatPleb
05-23-2013, 08:19 AM
I hope y'all PC's overheat *runs away again*
Easy fix plus it doesn't permanently damage anything :P

pacmanate
05-23-2013, 08:21 AM
Easy fix plus it doesn't permanently damage anything :P

I hope Y'all PC's get the blue screen of death *pegs it*

TheLeoCrow
05-23-2013, 11:36 AM
I have been flirting with buying a console for a while now. One of the reasons being to avoid annoying DRM. It seems to me that MS (and potentially Sony) are going to do what Ubisoft did with the PC version of AC2. I understand a one time activation for each game, but not a daily verification. I understand a small fee to play a used game (as long as they offer downloading demos for every single game for free) but when that fee is the same as the retail price? Unacceptable! Not to mention renting games which we have no idea how will that work.

I might still consider buying a console (now leaning more towards PS4) because with the new consoles, I expect game requirements will go up, since most companies don't bother optimizing their games much for pc. I may be one of the few who don't have frame rate issues with AC3 but I don't expect that to last.

I see a lot of people comparing this new console DRM with Steam etc. Steam is a service that does require you to occasionally connect online but also offers a lot in return. And most importantly, Steam isn't a monopoly! You can use Steam, you can use Origin, GMG, Uplay, GOG etc. If you have a console and you can only buy either retail games or from their online store, then it's quite different than a company that is trying to shine among it's competition through sales, great offers, works well with humble bundle etc.

pacmanate
05-23-2013, 01:28 PM
Well Sony's console never needs the internet. They said that they never even considered doing that.

twenty_glyphs
05-23-2013, 03:43 PM
It's so generous of Microsoft to provide us with a way to get permission to use our games how we want. It's not like you can just hand your friend a movie on a DVD and let them borrow it to watch it, is it? It's not like all I have to do to loan my car to my dad is hand him the key, is it? Wait, it is? Why would Ford let me just hand out the keys to my own car to use as I please without registering it with them and getting permission to unlock it for someone else to use? It only makes sense, right?

This line of thought is insulting to me. It's completely asinine. It's also dangerous. I will not support any console that goes down this route unless the mechanism is easy and convenient FOR ME. We're talking about freaking video games here, not some nuclear warhead that needs to be kept track of at all times. Somewhere along the line, this industry stopped trying to please their customers and started thinking only about how to please themselves, their shareholders and their business partners. Guess what? Your products are not so great that I can't live without them.

I've bought a few ebooks in the past, but I hesitated because what I'm buying is not the same product as a physical book. If I buy a book from a store, I can do whatever I please with it. I can still read it in 20 years if I took care of it and didn't let it get lost, stolen or damaged, even if all ebook readers suddenly disappeared from the planet. I do not have that same guarantee with an iPad ebook. I can't lend the book, I can't sell it to a used book store to recoup some of its cost if I end up hating it, and if Apple stops making iPads in 3 years and mine stops working, I'll likely lose access to the book as well. So why would I willingly buy an inferior product that gives me fewer options and might suddenly disappear and become worthless one day? Price. I only consider buying ebooks when their price is significantly less than the physical product precisely because I really am getting less for my money. You can bet your life savings that next-gen video games will not be cheaper than the current generation to offset the new inconveniences and loss of value.

Even though ebooks are locked down, I can still read them on my iPad without an internet connection. I only need the connection to download the book. My iPad doesn't have to phone the Apple mothership just to open that ebook. If it did, I'd be getting even less value for an ebook, and I'd only buy it if the price went down more.

I will not pay the same amount of money or more for a new version of a product that could stop working at any time for any number of reasons. I took my Xbox on a vacation several years ago the week a game came out and had a blast playing it that week. I had no internet connection in the hotel. Under this new system, that wouldn't be possible. Why would I pay $400-$500 for a product that's less useful than the one I already have?

No matter how many servers Microsoft sets up, their system will not be infallible. Just having these draconian means of DRM is only going to paint a bigger bullseye on their backs for hackers to try to hit. I'm not paying big money for their system knowing that it could become a brick if their servers get hacked. Of if they're sabotaged by an employee on the inside who hates what they're doing. Or what about the more common scenario of my Xbox Live account being hacked? Under this system, it seems I wouldn't have access to any of my games then. Sign me up!

The very fact that Microsoft has no clear message about this is worrying as well. They don't even know exactly how their system will work this late in the game. That means they have no clear vision or reasoning for these new inconveniences. Their PR hasn't even prepared them to defer these questions for now, leading to varying stories and talk of them simply talking about possible "scenarios" for the final console. I'm dumbfounded that they were not prepared to handle this better. They've had months, almost a year, to prepare for the consumer backlash to this crap while the rumors swirled and fans moaned, and they look completely unprepared. They should have gotten out in front of it and said "this is why we are doing this, and this is how it will benefit our customers." Even if it was obvious PR spin, that would have been so much better than what they're doing. At the very least, they should have had a consistent stonewalling message to try to avoid answering these questions if they weren't prepared to answer them. If they can't even handle the communication of these crazy new policies correctly, why would you trust them to handle the more complicated implementation?

TheLeoCrow
05-23-2013, 07:34 PM
[...]

I agree with every single word in this post. (I am not really quoting it to avoid cluttering the thread)