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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:13 PM
someone said that the yak9u is a bomber interceptor, now that sounds whacked i thought, 2 12.7mm mgs and 1 20mm shvak isnt much for taking down bombers, so i said that a bomber intercepotor needs more armament than that, but he said its not the 20mm found on la´s and other yaks its a better 20mm with more range, it is like the mk103, LOOOOOL i just had it ! 20mm shvak like 30mm uber mk103=!!=!=!=!=???

Now that cant be right, !
Plz tell me its wrong /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif !

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:13 PM
someone said that the yak9u is a bomber interceptor, now that sounds whacked i thought, 2 12.7mm mgs and 1 20mm shvak isnt much for taking down bombers, so i said that a bomber intercepotor needs more armament than that, but he said its not the 20mm found on la´s and other yaks its a better 20mm with more range, it is like the mk103, LOOOOOL i just had it ! 20mm shvak like 30mm uber mk103=!!=!=!=!=???

Now that cant be right, !
Plz tell me its wrong /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif !

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:44 PM
I'm not quite sure of the actual gun on the Yak-9U, but it doesn't really matter. There were two 20mm guns massively produced and thus available to the VVS in WW2. The first was the ShVAK, and this was soon followed by the Be-20. Both fired the same rounds at roughly the same velocity and rate of fire. The main difference was that the later modelled Be-20 gun was about 1/3 less in overall weight.

Both guns fired relatively light rounds and thus had poorer penetration values when compared to most other 20mm cannons.



Message Edited on 09/25/0306:46PM by ISU-152

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:56 PM
There was a 23mm cannon too. Dont' have any info on it here, but it was used after the war as a replacement for the 20mms i believe

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 09:14 PM
20mm ShVAK cannon was enlarged version early heavy machinegun bearing the same ShVAK name. Entered service in 1936 and by the time of the war was free of bug reliable weapon. Weight of the synchronized version of it was 40kg.

20mm B-20 cannon was enlarged version of UB heavy machinegun we have in the game.
It was using same 20x99R ammo as ShVAK, had same ROF and ballistic characteristics but was lighter. Weight of the synchronized version of it was 25kg. Gun was developed in 1944 and it took time to iron out all the bugs - this why at first La-7 were armed with same ShVAK cannons as earlier La-5's. Currently three of those cannon installed in La-7 (B-20) only. Hope we will have Yak-3P, Yak-9P and Yak-9UT which were armend with those cannons in the future in our game.

There was also 23mm VYa-23 cannon. It was firing much more powerful high velocity rounds (23x152B) and had comparatively high ROF, but was heavy 68kg. Currently installed only in Il-2 in the game. It was also installed on some series of production LaGG-3.

And the last 23mm Russian cannon which was used in the war was NS-23 - scaled down version of NS-37 already in the game. It was true fighter weapon - light (37kg), fast firing (700rpm - unsynchronized) and shooting same powerful rounds as VYa-23 only using smaller cases and since having lover muzzle velocity 670m/s and recoil. It was installed on Yak-9UT during the war and on La-9 and La-11 in 1946.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:48 PM
OK, probably this thread is doomed to go straight to hell anyway, but I might as well give it a good push.

I've read a pilot account from the first soviet P-40 series pilots, who said they ended up removing the wing .50s and leaving only the synch. nose mounted .50s to shoot at planes with. In the interviewees opinion, the decreased overall weight of the plane more than made up for it, and 2 .50s was still more than sufficient to down enemy planes of the time.

There surely has to be some reason why most of the soviet fighters in the game have 1, at most 2 [other than mig3+pods] UBS mgs.

At least as far as playing FB goes, I find that I have to really hold off on my shots to make the ammo count in the Yaks and 66/'43 Laggs to score more than 5 or so kills. This isn't necessarily a matter of hitting power, just a matter of ammunition.

Anyone have a good idea as to why the VVS continued to pump out planes armed with a single 12.7mm mg + 1x cannon up until '44 ? Can't have been too ineffective after their experiments with installing up to 5 guns in the nose of the Lagg3s4 we see modelled in the game. Obviously this is touching on the 'OVERMODELLED UBS MG LOL NOOB' LW complaints, which I'm hoping can be avoided. Were they so overmodelled in real life that you really did need only one ? :>


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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 12:38 AM
It' easy - Soviets didn't have many of the powerful engines designed for fighter planes when war started. End of life M-62, M-63 plus M-105 with yet to be perfected and still not powerful enough for the planes being developed - and that was about it. AM-38 was not true "fighter" engine. Remember - even LaGG-3 was originally planed to have M-106 engine (which was in near-production state for few years, before whole project was dropped). More powerful pre-war M-107 (1500hp) was finally adopted in service in 1944 with Yak-9U as VK-107A.

Having limited power Soviets needed to preserve performance of their planes by any other means - like saving weight by installing less guns and cutting their ammo, cutting on-board fuel and oil, sacrificing high altitude performance.

Later, when M-82, M-82F and Ash-82FN engines become available - it was more the meter of continuing uninterrupted production of the existing planes.
But you are not right all the way - don't forget about Yak-9T, Yak-9K, Yak-9UT, La-7 - those were heavy hitters compare to anything flying anywhere in the world.
Once there was a chance to breeze easier - Russian produced Yak-3P, Yak-9P and La-9.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 12:45 AM
a minor point is being missed here


the SHVAK is a VVS cannon


the only bomber targets for the VVS in WWII were he111 and ju88 medium bombers

they were not shooting at the equivalent of a B17 or Pe8 so bigger cannons were not necessary .. the big gun 9T and 9K yaks were tank killers

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:02 AM
Not necessarily, not just anti-tank. Those were bomber killers first - the importance on destroying planes with one shot was primary, anti-tank capabilities were important but those were "nice to have" - the main targets were planes. But true, those Yak-9T were not designed to handle streams of high flying B-17, just medium bombers or fighter-bombers. Russian "dedicated" high altitude interceptors during the war, all in serial production (MiG-3) or in development (Yak-7RD, Yak-9RD, I-221, I-222) were all comparatively lightly armed.
But if you think of it - any WWII era plane compare to German bomber interceptor could be considered "lightly armed".
In the front testes the ability of Yak-7-37 or Yak-9T to deal with enemy fighters was highly praised. The effective range of NS-37 cannon allowed Yak-9T to shoot at the bombers at a distance were bombers defensive fire was ineffective. Russian calculated that it took in average only 31 37mm round shot per one enemy plane destroyed compare to 147 20mm rounds per plane.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy


Message Edited on 09/25/0311:04PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 11:29 PM
yo, seems like a lot of knowlegdable people here regarding VVS ac armaments, so whats the story behind the Yak3T-57, and when will we get it?

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