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Isensol
04-26-2013, 06:50 PM
I was kicking around some ideas in my head after playing Ac1 and 2 (and finishing the redemption DLC) and the first thing I take note of is combat and the interactions. I also took note of behavior during the fights and I think I came up with an idea to make combat more engaging perhaps even harder and it’s simply just elaborating on animations and actions that are already there.

First thing most people may notice is that Ac1 combat you can take advantage of guards who taunt or cower to score a quick hit, this also seen in other games and the idea is to elaborate on this.

When killing a guard in open conflict there are 5 things fellow guards can do~

Hold steady: the guards don’t react and continue to attack or defend as they would normally the loss of a guard doesn’t phase them.

Cheer/Taunt: Rallies the fellow guards to stand steady or even embolden them to attack.

Enrage/Embolden: The guard filled with anger at a loss of a fellow guard will do a quick 3 hit succession each attack varies in speed going from very fast with a small counter window then to medium speed attack with a normal counter window, and lastly a slow punishing heavy attack with a large counter window. This attack can also occur if a guard has made a successful strike on you. (can also occur if a guard rallies the others)

Fear/Cower: the guard upon seeing his fellow guard(s) killed cowers and shows fear. (a state which can allow a free hit)this guard will now hesitate to attack and will have a visual of a trembling sword or gun.

Flee: Upon seeing a fellow guard killed he will flee and scatter to run and grab as many guards as he can to go and attack you.

And lastly as a few side notes to help make combat more tactical aside from the suggestions up above~

Kill streaks can now no longer be done on any guard after a successful kill they can now only be done on guards who are cowering or taunting (even after the cower animation is done and the guards are hesitating ((shown by trembling weapons)) they can be chain killed) Guards who hold steady will not be allowed to be chain killed.
Certain guard archetypes will have more tendency for certain actions, such as a heavy guard being enraged or emboldened. A guard captain taunting or cheering to raise fellow soldiers moral to not flee and to potentially be emboldened. Swift guards will be emboldened upon getting a successive hit and doing the lil example combo mentioned.

Guards who flee will run to other guards and then will follow the path they just took (this time with reinforcements with him) back to where the assassin was last see where they will then investigate surroundings. Or if combat is still going will join into the fray.

Additional notes to further explain things~


The reason for the kill streak limitation is to simply make it so unlike brotherhood and ongoing you can’t simply get one kill and then tap your way to kill 50+ more guards because you got lucky once.

Embolden is to help disrupt chances you may get at doing a kill streak or getting a quick hit on a fearful guard or chase down a fleeing one.
Guards who flee is to cause a quick decision making; Stay here and hope that he won’t be able to reach you before you finish or chase him and leave yourself open to be stabbed or shot.

All these actions that guards may do are on invisible counters and scripts that are specific to the guard archetype.

Being attacked form behind will have a much smaller counter window as to make it so you must try your best not to be surrounded. AND I MEAN MUCH SMALLER THEN NORMAL think Ac1 hidden blade counter with even more precision.

Double counter kills have a smaller window to react and do no force a close up glamour cam so that you can keep an eye out for where to strike next.
YOU THE ASSASSIN FLEEING, what this may do depends on what you did~ if you killed a vast number of them they will be relentless in chasing you down or perhaps they will be so fearful that they may just give up quickly not wanting to come across your blade (this is dependent on who is left standing obviously a guard captain will push for relentless while grunts will be fearful((though sometimes they can surprise you))) If you used barehanded methods and left none dead they will be most likely to leave you alone since you haven’t killed though some archetypes may perceive this as an insult and chase you harder for it.

In addition the previous mentioned scripts and counters that guards have will be effected by what weapon type you’re using. A barehanded fight will cause guards to be emboldened more often and to stand steady (the reward being if you do take them out like this they are more likely not to chase you as much) a dagger will be less embolden then bare hands but will cause them to hold steady more. A sword will cause them to taunt and cheer more but once killing may cause cowardice. Using hidden blade at first will cause them to be emboldened (since it looks like you’re unarmed) but will cause fear and fleeing since they don’t know how you are killing them. So on and so forth.

When civilians see a fight they will scatter and run to do what a fleeing guard does minus running with them back to you making the reinforcements slower to come or not at all (since a panicked civilian probably won’t tell a guard very much from being scared such as exact location)
When pulling a a gun out guards won't just stand there instead they'll try to take cover and if a guard were to go into coward animation he may hide behind a fellow guard. IT ALSO POSSIBLE TO MISS! guards can miss their shots because the guns weren't accurate so should you!



These things may seem like they are in the game but what I am saying and suggesting is that it be more elaborate and cause combat to have pros and cons.
Your thoughts?

EDIT AFTERTHOUGHT: weapons in general should each have a varying counter window more akin to Ac1 rather then basically all of them having the same window like in future games such as ACIII

tl;dr Nope, didn't read? don't comment :rolleyes:

Isensol
04-27-2013, 09:01 PM
I know bumping is frowned upon but some 300 views now and not a single reply? Not even to say it bites?
Come on XD
Well If no replies I'll let it die only bumping this once

AdamPearce
04-28-2013, 05:32 AM
I think you're good for a visit to Ubisoft' locals.

Isensol
04-28-2013, 07:08 AM
I think you're good for a visit to Ubisoft' locals.

Going to have to be a dork and ask what you mean by that XD

Assassin_M
04-28-2013, 07:10 AM
Going to have to be a dork and ask what you mean by that XD
You should go work for Ubisoft..AKA nice ideas

Isensol
04-28-2013, 07:16 AM
You should go work for Ubisoft..AKA nice ideas

haha ah I had an inkling that's what he meant, but I'm no programer or artists or anything that would be needed in creating a game :p

Anyhow~

Assassin_M
04-28-2013, 07:23 AM
haha ah I had an inkling that's what he meant, but I'm no programer or artists or anything that would be needed in creating a game :p

Anyhow~
Patrice Desilets, creator of Assassins Creed, is a literature and film studies major...You don't have to be a programmer to create games...you just have to be creative

Isensol
04-28-2013, 07:31 AM
Patrice Desilets, creator of Assassins Creed, is a literature and film studies major...You don't have to be a programmer to create games...you just have to be creative

Fair enough point, but it helps to have some knowledge in those fields and there are only so many "creative" people you need in one company since everyone has the capacity to be creative given time and interest. Though I'll simply take the compliment and hope *very very distant hope* that perhaps a dev of AC series will notice this and come up with an even better idea thanks to it and make the series even better :3

Sushiglutton
04-28-2013, 09:02 AM
I'm no fan of these ideas sorry :(.

The point to me with having a killstreak system is that it offers two levels of challenge. First to survive (aka not get hit so many times that you die), second to perfect (namely to win the fight in one streak). The idea is that casual gamers will have fun trying to survive, while more advanced players will also have something to strive for. If you introduce things that will force an interuption in the killstreak, no matter what the player does, you break the system imo. It's giving the player a task and then randomly make it so it can't be completed. That is not challenge, that is frustration and imo poor design.

If you want to make a killstreak system more challenghing you can make it harder to maintain the streak by for example requiring more correct button presses, shorter counter windows or something like that. Imo there should never be a moment where it's impossible to continue the streak (unless the player has put himself in this position). I also think your idea may have trouble working in practice. Often you need to decide which opponent you should attack next before you have killed the current one. That means you will not have seen the guards reaction before you make your decission. I alos think camera angles will be an issue. Often you can attack towards the camera if you just know a guard is there. However if you need to also know his state you can no longer do this.

I feel similar about your gun idea. Random in that sense is not fun imo. Guards can attack randomly, but when you attack things should behave predictably imo. Tapping the gun button should mean shooting a guard every time imo. Everything else will feel unsatisfying and frustrating. There are much better ways of increasing the challenge if that is the goal (decreasing health, shorter counter windows, a wider selection of moves and defensive strategies etc).

Isensol
04-28-2013, 05:32 PM
I'm no fan of these ideas sorry :(.

The point to me with having a killstreak system is that it offers two levels of challenge. First to survive (aka not get hit so many times that you die), second to perfect (namely to win the fight in one streak). The idea is that casual gamers will have fun trying to survive, while more advanced players will also have something to strive for. If you introduce things that will force an interuption in the killstreak, no matter what the player does, you break the system imo. It's giving the player a task and then randomly make it so it can't be completed. That is not challenge, that is frustration and imo poor design.

The problem with your idea on the 2 layers of the combat is that it isn't hard to survive since all you really need to do is hold block then counter (something that has been more and more lenient as the series as progressed) And for the second, where's the challenge and fun in that? it's an instant kill that can not be hampered unless you need to do a counter kill again (and then go back into a streak). The only thing that may force an interruption is an attack by an enraged guard or a standing steady one. If that occurs then you counter kill and cause more cowardice around you to take advantage upon. If the enraged is a problem then you either wait till you are sure you can hit one of the counters (since each attack will get sloppier) or dodge and do a normal attack.

If you want to make a killstreak system more challenghing you can make it harder to maintain the streak by for example requiring more correct button presses, shorter counter windows or something like that. Imo there should never be a moment where it's impossible to continue the streak (unless the player has put himself in this position). I also think your idea may have trouble working in practice. Often you need to decide which opponent you should attack next before you have killed the current one. That means you will not have seen the guards reaction before you make your decission. I alos think camera angles will be an issue. Often you can attack towards the camera if you just know a guard is there. However if you need to also know his state you can no longer do this.

If you do that then it's basically "Simon" (the old electronic game where you tapped corresponding colours) And I did suggest different counter window timer^^. I think there should, with my idea you would want to kill the higher standing soldier to cause fear in the grunts to chain into a killstreak which the more you kill in a killstreak the more chance to continue. As for which oppenent to attack next I don't see how would be a problem. Play Ac1 when you kill a guard you'll see 1-2 who crouch down lower their sword slighly and look panicked. You then know to follow up on him for a free hit (since in Ac1 killstreaks weren't in) Similiar idea and to make it less likely you would miss the chance there is the fear which is shown by a trembling sword(or weapon). As for Camera Angle, As long as the game doesn't do a Ac2 with changing camera angles all the time or an Ac3 where they zoom in (the double kill springs to mind) It shouldn't be a problem either, but could be. And as stated there are indicators towards his state and heck even if you can't see him you should have verbal cues like in Ac2.

I feel similar about your gun idea. Random in that sense is not fun imo. Guards can attack randomly, but when you attack things should behave predictably imo. Tapping the gun button should mean shooting a guard every time imo. Everything else will feel unsatisfying and frustrating. There are much better ways of increasing the challenge if that is the goal (decreasing health, shorter counter windows, a wider selection of moves and defensive strategies etc).
The gun idea was something my friend bugged me to suggest I dislike it as well, it makes it annoying if you waste 2 shots trying to down one man. As for decresing health certainly. and ya as stated the windows for counters would change. as for moves yes and yes.

Also to note if not obvious the idea is to have the assassin focus on getting down the biggest baddy down first to cause fear and limit any redeeming moral qualities hey may have had. The second is to move around the field to keep from being surrounded and to allow to keep options open for kill streaks and easy counter kills to open a kill streak.