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AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-26-2013, 04:53 PM
My question is was the event of TOKW real? Or were they jus a fabrication created by the Apple, perhaps foretelling events to come?

My reasons why are because TOKW is supposed to be canon for the main storyline.Washington said many times he kept gettin dreams from the apple an that Conner was in them. Is it possible that those events never happened an Washington an Ezio was jus standing in the woods the entire time?

Also its rumored within the AC series that an Apple has time warping abilities so any clarifacition would be well appreciated

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 05:31 PM
My question is was the event of TOKW real? Or were they jus a fabrication created by the Apple, perhaps foretelling events to come?

My reasons why are because TOKW is supposed to be canon for the main storyline.Washington said many times he kept gettin dreams from the apple an that Conner was in them. Is it possible that those events never happened an Washington an Ezio was jus standing in the woods the entire time?

Also its rumored within the AC series that an Apple has time warping abilities so any clarifacition would be well appreciated
A vision by the Apple, so it shows what MIGHT happen had certain events not occur....or new events occured....it`s a twisted world where GW uses the Apple to become King, but they`re both standing in the forest the entire time, actually, it`s most probably extremely brief...like....5 or 6 seconds in real time, but obviously a grand adventure in the vision itself...get my meaning ?? Dreams are actually about less than a minute long, but in the dream, you feel like it`s pretty long

montagemik
04-26-2013, 05:43 PM
Personally - I took it to be a premonition of a possible future - Shared in a split second where Connor & Washington both touched the Apple .........
So i say they were both stood in the woods for just a few moments in reality - but Just like a dream , the passing of time within the Vision is distorted .

The events of TOKW are supposed to be cannon - in the sense that the events shown were shared/ experienced by both Connor & Washington - So for those two people the vision happened & potentially influenced Washington's leadership decisions for the nation............ Think of it like a nod to the Dollar Bill design .
"In God We Trust" ( Washington has been shown & now knows , no one man can be trusted with ultimate power & total control , however noble the intentions )
The pyramid - All powerful ruler overseeing from on high, set above all others ( another remnant from washington's Vision )
The Eagle Standard, holding arrows & a branch = Strength & nobility ( a referance to Washington's ally throughout revolution & the one who saves him within his dreams/ nightmares = Connor & his magic willow tea )

IWGCJoeCool
04-27-2013, 01:42 PM
after it was all over, and watched the last memory fragment, i was sure it probably occurred "in canon", as far as Washington having acquired an Apple for a time, sought Connor out, believing him to be both upright and spiritually enlightened. as for the TOKW, i believe that it was a split second, where they both experienced visions, personal and concurrently.

sorry for the spoiler

JC

pacmanate
04-27-2013, 04:00 PM
Possible future. Basically.

1. GW was getting visions from the Apple about his corrupt self
2. He really did meet Connor in the Frontier.
3. When Washington and Connor touched the apple at the same time, both of them saw what was to come if Washington kept the apple.

I guess its basically explaining why Washington never became King.

Abeonis
04-28-2013, 12:29 PM
Also its rumored within the AC series that an Apple has time warping abilities so any clarifacition would be well appreciated

Nothing is rumoured, it is explicitly stated ​that at least one Piece of Eden has the ability to manipulate time, but at no point is it indicated that this Piece is an Apple..

waynedavies89
04-28-2013, 12:48 PM
TOKW shows what could have happened to the world if Conner didnt become an Assassin, I would guess to say something was changed way before Conner was born, probably involving Edward, to alter the timeline of Haythem and ultimately Conner.

Quirky Jezza
04-28-2013, 03:00 PM
Anyone notice how Washington's Horse was Black everytime until he gave the Apple to Connor? After which he leaves on a white horse (I believe he is always shown on a white horse in real life).

Quirky Jezza
04-28-2013, 03:06 PM
None of the events in TOKW other than the three artifact memories and the ending were real. Everything else was the vision that the two shared when they touched the apple. It was a "what if" vision and Connor was never an Assassin and many of the events in the single player game didnt happen (characters still alive). It was not an exact vision of what would have happened, it was a vision of what it would have been like if Washington had used the Apple for evil.

pacmanate
04-28-2013, 03:09 PM
Anyone notice how Washington's Horse was Black everytime until he gave the Apple to Connor? After which he leaves on a white horse (I believe he is always shown on a white horse in real life).

Probably an oversight, but I didn't notice but will take your word for it. AC games are known for its inconsistencies and oversights.

Quirky Jezza
04-28-2013, 03:23 PM
Probably an oversight, but I didn't notice but will take your word for it. AC games are known for its inconsistencies and oversights.

Yeah it could be, but surely they would have the same horse coded in for all the cutscenes. I think it was meant to show that he was un-corrupted by the Apple as he has a black horse all the time in the DLC whereas in single player it is white

EDIT: Actually cant confirm if it was always white but he is mostly shown on a white horse in real life and never on a black horse in Single

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-28-2013, 03:49 PM
Ohhh okay ii understand now lol. It's jus ii was reading the AC wiki on POE's an was kinda confused on that:confused:, thanks

SixKeys
04-28-2013, 05:22 PM
This "alternate future" still makes no sense to me. How could Ziio still be alive in this timeline? What about all the other changes to events that we saw happen in AC3? What about Connor's animal powers?

If touching the Apple showed Connor and Washington what would happen if Washington kept the Apple, why would Connor go back to not being an assassin, not knowing Achilles, his tribe members still being alive etc.? Since certain events are obviously not possible (like Ziio coming back to life), why would this vision convince either of them that this kind of future could necessarily happen as a result of keeping the Apple? Why did Alta´r and Ezio never experience such visions of alternate futures ?

montagemik
04-28-2013, 05:49 PM
This "alternate future" still makes no sense to me. How could Ziio still be alive in this timeline? What about all the other changes to events that we saw happen in AC3? What about Connor's animal powers?

If touching the Apple showed Connor and Washington what would happen if Washington kept the Apple, why would Connor go back to not being an assassin, not knowing Achilles, his tribe members still being alive etc.? Since certain events are obviously not possible (like Ziio coming back to life), why would this vision convince either of them that this kind of future could necessarily happen as a result of keeping the Apple? Why did Alta´r and Ezio never experience such visions of alternate futures ?

It's a vision of an alternate scenario or one of washington's nightmares induced by the power of the apple - Created from Washington's own experiences & desires in his subconcious mind - maybe even mixed with elements of Connor's memories .
Most elements are symbolic in some way - either regret of events that happened or desire for things to have happened differently.
Zio's back = Symbolises Washington's guilt as he ordered the attacks that killed her in reality / OR Connor's desire to have his mother still be alive -
But Washington kills her again = perhaps the realisation from both Connor & Washington that she's gone & Washington was to blame.


It's a dreamlike vision created between two minds with different perspective & emotions of past events - to be viewed symbolically rather than literally.
( that's how i try to make sense of it anyhow )

Locopells
04-28-2013, 05:54 PM
That's the only bit that bugs me - it a whole parallel universe, not just a possible future. The Great Temple is gone, The Great Willow doesn't exist in the main timeline, various events in the past are different, as you said. I'm still trying to work out, why the Apple would want to scare GW, out of keeping it, so badly...

WarriorAegis
04-28-2013, 06:08 PM
It's canon all right. Ubisoft originally stated it wouldn't, but then they retracted that statement (see the ACWiki). I imagine they made it canon for the sake of the visions. Because of the visions, it still shows that in the 'real world,' Washington is still noble, and self-controlled. For one thing, he went to Connor for help, and that's showing him taking the initiative to stop the visions before they became real.

Note: The game IS a work of fiction and it disturbs me when people say "AC makes me rethink what history really was like." It's a GAME. Plus, Ubisoft makes it quite clear that it is fiction. Don't base reality on fiction.

Fiction should be based off reality.

waynedavies89
04-28-2013, 06:32 PM
It's canon all right. Ubisoft originally stated it wouldn't, but then they retracted that statement (see the ACWiki). I imagine they made it canon for the sake of the visions. Because of the visions, it still shows that in the 'real world,' Washington is still noble, and self-controlled. For one thing, he went to Connor for help, and that's showing him taking the initiative to stop the visions before they became real.

Note: The game IS a work of fiction and it disturbs me when people say "AC makes me rethink what history really was like." It's a GAME. Plus, Ubisoft makes it quite clear that it is fiction. Don't base reality on fiction.

Fiction should be based off reality.

but what if Conner wasn't there to help Washington? That's what I think half of it is about, the simple story what if Conner didn't become an Assassin and how that effected the world. At the end of AC3 Conner questioned is choice to join the order since he lost so much and the DLC reflects that. While at the same time the story that happens in the DLC its self still wouldn't happen, because Conner goes into this world with all the knowledge of the real world, which itself effects the timeline.

*brain explodes*

Yes there's a lot of symbolism in the DLC, but the fact that's its "cannon" shows that this story is more relevant then most people think. I think more pieces will be given in AC4 because Edward is connect to this some how, maybe it was a choice he made that effected Conner's future and the POE kind of knows it since these things can see into the future

SixKeys
04-28-2013, 10:51 PM
It's a vision of an alternate scenario or one of washington's nightmares induced by the power of the apple - Created from Washington's own experiences & desires in his subconcious mind - maybe even mixed with elements of Connor's memories .
Most elements are symbolic in some way - either regret of events that happened or desire for things to have happened differently.
Zio's back = Symbolises Washington's guilt as he ordered the attacks that killed her in reality / OR Connor's desire to have his mother still be alive -
But Washington kills her again = perhaps the realisation from both Connor & Washington that she's gone & Washington was to blame.


It's a dreamlike vision created between two minds with different perspective & emotions of past events - to be viewed symbolically rather than literally.
( that's how i try to make sense of it anyhow )

Okay, if it was all symbolic, then what's the point of throwing away the Apple as these events could obviously never come to pass? It's like if you own an Uzi and you have a dream where you mow down your entire family, including your long-dead grandma, then wake up in the morning and go: "Woah, what a trippy dream" and throw away your Uzi to prevent you from ever going on a killing spree in RL. I mean, that makes no sense.

bigbssbalrog
04-28-2013, 10:55 PM
Okay, if it was all symbolic, then what's the point of throwing away the Apple as these events could obviously never come to pass? It's like if you own an Uzi and you have a dream where you mow down your entire family, including your long-dead grandma, then wake up in the morning and go: "Woah, what a trippy dream" and throw away your Uzi to prevent you from ever going on a killing spree in RL. I mean, that makes no sense.
I think Connor feared the Apple's power would corrupt him like how the Sky Powers corrupted him in the dream.

AssassinHMS
04-28-2013, 11:21 PM
There is also one thing that I find confusing in this DLC. After AC3, a game that lacked the things that make an actual Assassin's Creed game, why didn't the devs use this second chance to correct their mistakes? They could've done an alternate reality where the assassin order was still strong. Where the missions are open ended and the focus is stealth.
But instead they give Connor powers that, not only have nothing to do with the franchise, don't improve the core aspects (since stealth is absent lets introduce a power that turns Connor invisible and takes away any possible challenge, since navigation is so important why not make Connor able to fly and since combat is so "hard" lets make it easier by introducing the bear power).
Assassin's Creed has become a melting pot and even though I know this is just a dlc I think this franchise deserves more respect.

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-29-2013, 01:20 AM
There is also one thing that I find confusing in this DLC. After AC3, a game that lacked the things that make an actual Assassin's Creed game, why didn't the devs use this second chance to correct their mistakes? They could've done an alternate reality where the assassin order was still strong. Where the missions are open ended and the focus is stealth.
But instead they give Connor powers that, not only have nothing to do with the franchise, don't improve the core aspects (since stealth is absent lets introduce a power that turns Connor invisible and takes away any possible challenge, since navigation is so important why not make Connor able to fly and since combat is so "hard" lets make it easier by introducing the bear power).
Assassin's Creed has become a melting pot and even though I know this is just a dlc I think this franchise deserves more respect.
IMO This 'DLC' restored my faith in the future of the AC series, if Ubi can create something as great as this just imagine wat the future titles will be like:D

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-29-2013, 01:24 AM
Okay, if it was all symbolic, then what's the point of throwing away the Apple as these events could obviously never come to pass? It's like if you own an Uzi and you have a dream where you mow down your entire family, including your long-dead grandma, then wake up in the morning and go: "Woah, what a trippy dream" and throw away your Uzi to prevent you from ever going on a killing spree in RL. I mean, that makes no sense.


I think Connor feared the Apple's power would corrupt him like how the Sky Powers corrupted him in the dream.
I agree the same thing happened wit Ezio when he came upon the Second Apple(Altair's apple) an when he hid his Apple under the Colosseum, he didnt want to become overzealous in his use of the Apples

tinrisky
04-29-2013, 01:27 AM
how come when i get to the part when Connor is limping towards the apple at the end an un rendered character sitting on the throne in Connor's voice goes take it! take it now! or something like that.

Dosenwabe
04-29-2013, 01:59 AM
Altair made similar experiences while investigating the apple in his lifetime.

SixKeys
04-29-2013, 02:05 AM
I agree the same thing happened wit Ezio when he came upon the Second Apple(Altair's apple) an when he hid his Apple under the Colosseum, he didnt want to become overzealous in his use of the Apples

Ezio gave up the Apple because he wanted to retire, not because he was afraid of it corrupting him.

I wouldn't have a problem with the story of ToKW if it actually made sense. I would have preferred to see Connor as the one who gets corrupted by the Apple because he wants to save his people and drive away the colonists. That sounds like a more plausible scenario and wouldn't require things like his mother being alive again without explanation. But there's no possibility whatsoever for the events that we were shown in the DLC to become reality, so what were Connor and Washington so worried about?

Dosenwabe
04-29-2013, 02:18 AM
Ezio gave up the Apple because he wanted to retire, not because he was afraid of it corrupting him. I wouldn't have a problem with the story of ToKW if it actually made sense. I would have preferred to see Connor as the one who gets corrupted by the Apple because he wants to save his people and drive away the colonists. That sounds like a more plausible scenario and wouldn't require things like his mother being alive again without explanation. But there's no possibility whatsoever for the events that we were shown in the DLC to become reality, so what were Connor and Washington so worried about? Washington was scared that the apple changes his personality and makes him mad like in the vision. It would have been a similar scenario.

bigbssbalrog
04-29-2013, 03:46 AM
Ezio gave up the Apple because he wanted to retire, not because he was afraid of it corrupting him.

I wouldn't have a problem with the story of ToKW if it actually made sense. I would have preferred to see Connor as the one who gets corrupted by the Apple because he wants to save his people and drive away the colonists. That sounds like a more plausible scenario and wouldn't require things like his mother being alive again without explanation. But there's no possibility whatsoever for the events that we were shown in the DLC to become reality, so what were Connor and Washington so worried about?
You dont understand, Connor gets corrupted by the end, by the sky powers not the apple. He becomes more brutal, uncaring, and lusts for power just like Washington.

SixKeys
04-29-2013, 03:53 AM
You dont understand, Connor gets corrupted by the end, by the sky powers not the apple. He becomes more brutal, uncaring, and lusts for power just like Washington.

I do understand. I understand that it would be impossible for Connor to be corrupted by sky powers because they're freaking impossible. AC has always treated supernatural phenomena as being explicable through PoE's or TWCB. That's why the animal powers in ToKW make no sense. No explanation is given for them, they're just magic. Magic doesn't fit into the AC universe.

As for Washington being afraid of the Apple corrupting him, it's understandable, but again, it's like the Uzi example. There is only reason to fear that you might go on a mad rampage, not because of the object that you hold but because of your own weakness. Washington never showed interest in becoming a ruler, he was even reluctant to be president. The Apple itself wouldn't be able to corrupt him unless he already harbored power-hungry thoughts.

AssassinHMS
04-29-2013, 11:51 AM
IMO This 'DLC' restored my faith in the future of the AC series, if Ubi can create something as great as this just imagine wat the future titles will be like:D

What makes you think that way? When you say "something as great as this" are you refering to the story of TOKW?

IWGCJoeCool
04-29-2013, 12:10 PM
and oh yeh, as nobody ever seen "It's A Wonderful Life"


it's all "what if's" and consequences.

JC

TRUKITTN
04-29-2013, 12:50 PM
and oh yeh, as nobody ever seen "It's A Wonderful Life"


JC

I don't have the DLC yet - was waiting for all of them to release and a little more money in my pocket. But, after it was said it was Canon and such this is exactly what I thought. Think about Connor's life as an assassin. Nothing at all went the way he wanted it to. Everything to him probably felt like it went entirely wrong and he probably started thinking "I wish I'd never became an Assassin." So enter the Its A Wonderful Life dream-scenario, and he is somehow able to find out what might of happened if he got his wish. I'm glad it seems my hunch was on the right track. Hopefully I'll get to play em soon~

montagemik
04-29-2013, 01:28 PM
Okay, if it was all symbolic, then what's the point of throwing away the Apple as these events could obviously never come to pass? It's like if you own an Uzi and you have a dream where you mow down your entire family, including your long-dead grandma, then wake up in the morning and go: "Woah, what a trippy dream" and throw away your Uzi to prevent you from ever going on a killing spree in RL. I mean, that makes no sense.


So think of the TOKW DLC as two stories ...............

STORY # 1 = Connor & Washington stood in the forest discussing the Apple - a piece of 1st Civ tech or from Connor's point of view an object of immense power connected to 'The Spirits' or the Temple . Connor has already been told by Juno in AC3 - He is to protect the temple/sacred land.
The apple is already giving Washington nightmares or troubling visions & thoughts , so he seeks Connor's advice about this strange artefact .
Obviously Connor knows this isn't meant for Washington's use or probably even his own , so retrieving it from Washington & away from those it wasn't meant for is overall his prime objective - wether he sees a nightmare reality or not.
So before they both touch the apple at the same instance - Their intentions / emotions are = Washington has this power & considers unifying the nation with it's aid - Connor's want's to take it ...- ................. Their state of mind & intentions directly influence the following vision scenario they share ..........

STORY # 2 = The alternative 'King washington' world Vision ..........created from the emotions / intentions / memories of both Washington & Connor as they both touch the apple.
What happens in this alt world / scenario is just a symbolic lesson or warning - Showing nothing more than the power of the apple will ultimately corrupt those it's not intended for .

To washington the power is represented as the Apple / ruler's sceptre - To Connor it's represented as the Spirit powers ( Juno & connor both flew as animus Spirit eagles in AC3 remember )
It's not supposed to be a ' If Washington keeps the apple Everything will be exactly like this alt world'.
It's just a lesson to be learned from a vision, created from the memories & subconcious desires of those who touched the apple = Connor & Washington.

So no matter what we saw in the vision - Connor would've disposed of or hidden the apple away anyway .

Locopells
04-29-2013, 01:50 PM
That actually works quite well.

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-29-2013, 04:00 PM
What makes you think that way? When you say "something as great as this" are you refering to the story of TOKW?

Not jus the story TOKW as a whole, I've played TOKW more than ii played AC3 lol

SixKeys
04-29-2013, 04:13 PM
SNIP

This sounds like the most logical explanation to me. The events in ToKW (apart from the "real world" stuff between Connor and Washington) should not be seen as a possible future but a symbolic dream consisting of the fears, desires and memories of both characters. That makes sense.