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Chachi McSwaqq
04-13-2013, 04:58 PM
Hello there. Most of you probably know who I am. For those who don't, I am a Youtuber and currently inactive competitive player within the AC community. There is a current surge of interest among most of the playerbase in the possibility of Assassin's Creed becoming an eSport, like Ubisoft's other game, Shootmania. I'm going to talk a little bit about what I believe is necessary in the game for that to happen, and what the players themselves need to do to promote such a thing.

First, I should provide a disclaimer: obviously what I write is not the end all be all method for the game to reach a more competitive level. The game can have a wide range of mechanics as long as they work together well enough to avoid manipulation. Things that I don't consider essential, but will still give my suggestions for, will be marked "NE." As for my credentials, I'm the media manager for an eSports organization known as Visualize Your Enemy, soon to be called ButtonBashers. I've had dealings with a variety of American and European teams in Call of Duty, League of Legends, and Halo. I am also one of the Machinima Respawn shoutcasters for Assassin's Creed 3, along with StealthShampoo. Beyond this I am a straight out eSports fan.

I invite you to respond if you see things that don't make sense in case I failed to think them through properly. You can also provide your own suggestions, as long as YOU think them through properly.

I'll start off with a bit of a reality check for whether you yourselves are prepared for eSports in this series.

Making a living in eSports is not by default the dream career you would like. The money is not massive unless you're playing on a major title and winning in top tournaments. Currently the only game that can promote a particularly luxurious lifestyle is League of Legends, where the top tier of players can conceivably make six digits annually. With other games, such as Shootmania, Super Smash Bros, and Call of Duty, it is a notably substantial source of income that should not be your only focus, but can definitely improve your sitting somewhat if you treat it as a side career while exploring other opportunities. This is the tier of games where early iterations of eSports Creed would likely fall. This also comes with difficulty. An eSports title can earn your team sponsorships providing gear, paid trips to tournaments around the world, and much more if you stay competitive. However, if you as an individual lag behind the rest of your team, you are in no way immune to being fired or replaced by someone working to surpass you. If you are fired, other teams may pick you back up, but it's unlikely you will upgrade through such a trade. Also, if your team becomes irrelevant, you will all likely be dropped by your sponsors. The competition will be far steeper as the game will attract more attention from competitive gamers. To this end, maintaining an eSports career requires extensive amounts of playing, practicing, living and breathing the game. It will not be as fun for you as it may be now. eSports is a job, and not a very secure one at that. This doesn't mean the game will become a bother for you to play -- it will still be fun, and tournament events are intense and enjoyable experiences. There is also, like I said, the potential to get yourself some very nice financial rewards.

In summary, if you think an eSports career is for you, be prepared to play far more than you do now and much more seriously. There is no team, clan or group of players in AC3 right now that plays at an eSport level of intensity. For example, eSport players know their game inside and out. Do you know the locations of every possible spawn for the C-Dom side players on Fort Wolcott Artifact Assault? Do you know how to manipulate and change those spawns to help your team's positioning? Do you have a different callout or title for every building or plaza on each map? Does each player on your team have a defined role and an ability set they have practiced extensively to identify as their favorite? Those are the kinds of things necessary for eSports. We'll talk more about that later.

The next section is about necessary game mechanics and this is the most detailed within the game that I will get.

The Meaty Stuff

- Matchmaking. Matchmaking is AC's biggest obstacle to reaching an eSport level. When you queue up for games by yourself or as a team, there is no skill factor in who you are matched with. You may find a noob lobby and score a 2345692k in Assassinate, or get stunlocked for five minutes in a Manhunt 1v4 when your random teammates rage quit. This doesn't help competitive teams looking to practice. The only way to effectively improve in team modes is to play 4v4 against a team of similar skill level. If you're lucky enough to even be on the same team in ranked queues (a team of 4 can be matched with two random players and then split into 3v3) you still have to hope you encounter experienced players that won't quit as soon as you pull off a nice play. The only effective way to ensure this happening is to play in scheduled scrims with other teams, and currently, there is no key internet resource to set those up -- they're usually done via Twitter or on the forums here in an unorganized fashion. Private matchmaking also needs a serious revamp to be at a competitive level. Players are sorted onto random teams, unless this has been fixed while I was unawares -- and even if it has, the same glitch happening for the first five months of AC4 will cripple the game's effort. There is also a very limited array of settings in private matches. You can only pick the map. You cannot decide which team spawns on which side, or place any restrictions on abilities or perks, outside the honor system. An eSport AC title would theoretically possess the ability to set private matches so that certain abilities could not be used. For instance, money bomb is extremely overpowered, and would most likely be banned at every tournament game.

- A theater / shoutcasting mode. The purpose of eSports is for publicity. Studios use it as a method to advertise their games, and receive deals from gear companies to run ads during events or alongside livestreams. Currently, Assassin's Creed is in no ready state for competitive tournament livestream. The recent test tournament run by Ubisoft had to splice and snap between views recorded from eight different monitors, something which, if used consistently, would be very confusing to viewers as there can be no smooth transition between players. You're watching a stunlock and then suddenly you are across the map seeing someone climb a wall. In Call of Duty, this kind of thing works as the action is very focused on a single pillar of gameplay, and the positioning of a team's players is highly important. Snapping to the view of a sniper covering an alley when the focus moves to that alley makes plenty of sense. In Assassin's Creed, it's a bit more fuzzy. Also, shoutcasting, a key portion of eSports livestreaming, and one with which I obviously am involved, requires the ability to see multiple players whenever the shoutcasters need it. The first videos commentated by our duo will soon be uploaded, and it will be obvious why, since we cast three tournament games solely from the perspective of JTS812. For all of these reasons, a spectator mode isn't something that can be passed over.

NE - An effective ranking system. The game can succeed as an eSport without perfection in this aspect, but prospects are improved if there is a valid resource, such as accurate leaderboards, where teams can find top talent. It also increases the competition and drive among random players to play the game more. Some of you may remember from the AC Revelations days -- if you've been on Xbox and looked at the leaderboards, you've probably seen Ay Ubi FIX THIS, a cleverly designed statement plotted by an outright genius. Ay Ubi FIX THIS is my alternate account which is currently (assuming no removal by Ubisoft), according to the leaderboards, number one in the world in the game's three main modes -- Deathmatch, Manhunt and Assassinate. It's about level 15 within the game's progression. Needless to say, my alternate account is NOT the best in the world and was never even close. It hasn't even unlocked most of the game's main abilities. The extreme simplicity and ease with which me and seven of my competitive Xbox friends got that account to that position is highly problematic. It's okay if ranked leaderboards are subject to hackers -- there's very little the studio can do to stop this, and hackers are obvious when you see their stats. But when it's that easy to boost accounts to the top without any hacking required, it's impossible to judge skill in any degree by the leaderboards, which causes the top players to have more trouble being noticed by potential sponsors.

- A more well-balanced set of abilities and possible strategies. This is without a doubt the beefiest part of the gameplay portion. A lot of you have probably played League of Legends -- it's the most popular game in the world. LoL's biggest strength in the eSports field is the presence of over one hundred playable characters, ALL of which can potentially be played well enough to be seen during eSports livestreams. And not just through trolling -- each champion can be at least somewhat viable in games that teams seriously play to win. Now think about Assassin's Creed. Think of every possible ability setup you would use if you wanted to win and were playing 100%. Would you ever bring poison dart instead of knives? Would you ever take money bomb instead of smoke bomb? Glimmer instead of animus shield? Would you use Sentry instead of Overall Cooldowns, or take Silent Mass Morph instead of Animus Hack? Scavenger instead of Boost Cooldowns or Score x2? I very much doubt a single person reading this would, aside from PERHAPS Mass Morph. Balance in abilities lies in more than simply whether they can be countered -- and it is essential that EVERY ability can be countered. Assassin's Creed 3 is by far the closest to this golden standard with the introduction of animus shield and wipe, but it isn't there yet. You may have seen me rage about throwing knives in multiple places. They're a large part of the reasons I haven't been playing the game. This is outside of simple like or dislike of a single ability -- throwing knives are factually unbalanced. Smoke bomb and shield are the only two abilities that can even be called close to counters -- and they are only partial. Shielding to block knives requires prediction of the knives being thrown, rather than reaction. Knives have no aiming or warning time and an instant travel across any distance. Smoke is also not a completely effective counter as it's very easy to avoid simply through patience by any player worth his salt. But, lest you think those to be too opinionated, knives also have half the cooldown of BOTH of those abilities. That means that for every time you successfully counter knives, which is far from a certainty, there will be another set of knives that you are unable to counter. For these reasons, throwing knives are NOT an eSports-ready ability. There are many ways to weaken them in order to balance them further -- the outright most effective way would be to add a full second of aiming time, impossible to decrease through crafting. Through this shield would become a viable counter. The duration of the knife effect could also be reduced to make it less possible to simply wait out a smoke bomb, therefore allowing smoke to counter knives. And unless both of those changes were implemented, knives would also require a cooldown extension. This would be best, however, because if BOTH changes were adopted, throwing knives would lag behind gun, making gun the key viable ranged ability. Also, in order to bring the other two ranged abilities into the fray, gun and knives would have to receive range limits, and the aiming time of poison dart would have to be decreased slightly. Through these changes, equality and variety in ranged abilities would be promoted. Wipe also has to be fixed -- this brings us to the second part of this paragraph, about strategies. Nick Nitrous recently posted a video I would recommend you check out -- the first episode of the Abstergo Lounge. I will not be providing a link here, but it should be easy to find. He states a similar theory to the one I carry regarding Manhunt. Throwable wipe has completely eliminated the possible variety of the mode. Point starving is the only viable strategy because grouping as a team will leave you all dead very quickly. The ability to remove all of a team's defensive plays for several seconds from any range is crippling to a mode so based on kills and stuns as Manhunt. This is where it becomes more difficult for the studio -- they either have to choose a specific mode to be the flagship eSports mode, or work hard to make sure that EVERY ability is balanced in EVERY mode. This is why private match restrictions would be most useful -- as a workaround to the difficulty and intensive maintenance required for such an undertaking. I could do specific analyses of each and every ability and recommended buffs or nerfs, but that would need to be an entirely separate thread and it would be based very little on facts. I can do this if requested. Otherwise, that closes the ability and strategy discussion for this one.

I'm going to take a brief sidebar here. An ability is not unbalanced simply because you don't like it. Smoke bomb in AC3 is not ludicrously broken. Gun is not an unfair ability. Both of them would receive tweaks to make other abilities more viable, but they are not overpowered. More on this will come in the what-you-must-do section.

NE - Maps. I'll clarify immediately that part of the map issue IS essential -- being that not necessarily every map, but most of the maps, do not favor any team by default. For an example, Artifact Assault on Ippokratous in AC Revelations. For those of you that remember it, you know that one of the spawns had a far superior defensive outlook. The lower spawn had an acro perch that covered more than half of the artifact zone with aerial range, and would therefore REQUIRE an ability from the runner to eliminate that threat. The artifact zone was surrounded by potential aerials on all sides and was within a closed area that made it very easy to spot targets. On the other side of the map, the artifact zone was in a wide open field with no possible aerial zones on players that had already reached it, and players that hadn't had a network of tunnels to get in while avoiding most of the danger. Civilian paths were also much more varying and left more of a possibility for stealthy entry. Therefore, the team with the lower spawn had advantages on both offense and defense, which led to that map becoming basically the poster map for the smoke-teleport running strategy. That can't be the case for a tournament-valid map, so Ippokratous would not be playable at an eSports level. The NON-essential part of the map discussion has to do with appearance and gameplay feel. I have no doubts that Saint-Pierre, in the AC3 DLC, is the best map in the series (within my opinion, of course). To me, it surpasses Siena, Gandolfo, and even everyone's favorite Mont St. Michel (which certainly had the looks, but nothing else). The map looks excellent and involves a lot of interesting free-running paths in the form of palm tree parkour sequences. It also possesses the best Deathmatch area of any map in either game. Best of all, it is drastically different from all other AC3 maps and therefore adds variety. Keeping the playing audiences interested also keeps the VIEWERS interested, which is great for an eSports livestream.

- Frequent maintenance and bug fixes. This should need no explanation. The wipe glitch, infinite abilities glitch, animus hack streak exploit, all of these are things that need to be patched and fixed very quickly when discovered. No game can be released in a perfect form which is why Ubisoft would need to step up the support level beyond that of the previous two games.

NE - Specific mechanics -- things such as the reverse detection meter, merged kill / stun button, reverse drop stuns (and by the way, those are worse than drop stuns in my entirely unbiased opinion). These are things that can be in the game but need to be implemented more carefully than they have been. Mechanically, Ubisoft has displayed a tendency to dream up good ideas for new mechanics and then implement them in ways that need a bit of improvement. For instance, the kill / stun merge has synergy with the lock system, and the lock system does not give proper priority to actions in AC3. I would assume the lock system is very difficult to program, because each game has had problems. In Brotherhood, there was a funky-advanced SPECIAL way necessary to get accurate locks, which is a huge motivation for the ACB-elitist crowd. Unfortunately, the lock system needs to be point and click if stated as point and click. If you aim your lock directly at someone, release the button, and lock a random civilian to the left, a common thing in Brotherhood, the system is not functioning properly. In ACR, it was the autolock. Locks were accurate and targeted the proper individual, but anyone running on the map within line of sight ate all your locks and caused you to start lots of unwanted chases, or kill civilians. The same thing is an issue, to a lesser degree, in AC3, making AC3 the closest purely in terms of locking, and then the prioritization needs some work. A happy medium of all three games with unnecessary mechanics removed would be eSports ready. The reason I list this paragraph as non-essential is that mechanics are the core part of a game, so if they are implemented properly, it doesn't matter what they are because the game is defined by them. Any mechanics that don't outrageously obliterate the game's basic playstyle and strengths can succeed within eSports if the kinks are worked out.

WHAT PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE

The biggest problem among the playerbase with an eSports mindset right now is the concept of "******y playstyles." I've been guilty of it myself at times, but if the game goes eSport I'll look to be shoutcasting it, not playing it. The overwhelming negativity in the playerbase comes from the idea that there is a "right way" to play the game. The reason the game is fun and popular is because you can play it however you like. So you aren't prepared to go into eSports if you get all angry at the tiniest little things, like someone shooting your poison. People play to win. Assassin's Creed is a game very much centered around raining on the other person's parade. Think about it: the way a person is playing always bothers you less if they're talking in a party chat with you, because it can always seem like they're playing specifically to make you mad. But if you sit back and let people get max point kills on their stuns, you're trying to lose. Players need to learn to adapt to the way their opponents are playing instead of impotently raging about it on Twitter or what have you. The best way to play the game will always be evolving, so if you're going to get left behind, you won't find yourself on many competitive teams.

There are things players are doing right. The AA seasonal is a good thing. I don't like the mode myself, but I like the concept of the competitive focus, and the number of new clans that have risen to participate. It's been run well, things such as strict photo evidence policies are essential. But the seasonal by itself isn't going to suddenly drive AC forth into an eSports phase. That wasn't even the goal of the seasonal when it was made -- it was simply another tournament of a different format. These kinds of events need to continue and come from more sources and across more modes. PS3 and PC need to get larger competitive sides. Also, if you're a player who only plays ACB, rants and rages about the other two and never plays them, you aren't going to help in any way. That's just the way it goes, unfortunately. The group that will help the game move forward is the one that moves forward with it.

Also, ditch the ranting about everything Ubisoft does. They ran a tournament in Europe that was an obvious effort to test the game's potential in a competitive LAN setting, FOR YOU. The heavy response from the community was to whine and shout about the people chosen to play in it. You're not going to help or advance anything behaving like that and you aren't accurately representing the AC playerbase that IS pleased about Ubisoft investigating possibilities. This includes complaining about AC4 and calling it "ACR 3.0" before even a multiplayer screenshot has been released. AC3 wasn't even ACR 2.0, each game has grown more towards eSports balance.

This pretty much closes out my general checklist for an eSports AC4 / 5. Before I leave I'm going to mention that I'm not the only one trying to take a more active role in reaching eSports -- EscoBlades, RaininStormwake, Nick Nitrous, and others unnamed are all doing as much as I am or more. This thread isn't the end, either. I'm just looking to create a focus on the forums for professional gaming related information regarding the series and a place where developers can go to gauge interest.

In a way this is like my AC3 Multiplayer Suggestions thread, but a lot more heavy duty, and I'd appreciate if it got a similar response. That was one of the most viewed and commented threads in the entire forum. To that end I'd like to seek a variety of opinions and suggestions, so share your own here, and keep them 100% positive. Also, I'd appreciate it and it would help a lot if you were to share this thread on Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, Reddit or wherever you like.

All of the above hath been spake. Now speak to me.

Omega-Knight1
04-13-2013, 05:12 PM
I actually read the whole post. Do I win?

Chachi McSwaqq
04-13-2013, 05:29 PM
I actually read the whole post. Do I win?

A thousand internets.

PooBrainHorse
04-13-2013, 05:59 PM
I suggest we bump dat thread so Ubi could read the whole thing.

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-13-2013, 09:11 PM
Imma have to read this wen im eatin:cool:

JayVaI
04-13-2013, 09:11 PM
Chachi's the man, that is the real money there Ubisoft, that's the real money. I hope you realize that.

Great post!

Jaanii95
04-13-2013, 09:56 PM
Great post Chachi!! :D

ps: There's a large competitive side on PS3 aswell as a not so large one on PC.

TEOmeansGOD
04-13-2013, 11:03 PM
nice thread
I also have an idea
for have a more competitive/eSport assassinate what do you think about to remove the additional bonus points of grab-kill,acro-kill and hidden-kill when used on a stunned target?!?!
the fact is that this kind of kills should require skill to be made ,like in wanted or in death match, when you kill some with this kind of kills you deserve all the point of the kill coz your target was a mobile target with the capacity to counter you. but which is the sense of find a spot where you can stun your target an d then kill him using an eadge of a roof,a wall or a blend group?!?!?! well....no one there is no sense to use a way like this to kill your target even though you can kill him in a more simply way
IDK this is just what assassinate should be IMO
let me know :)

PooBrainHorse
04-13-2013, 11:35 PM
nice thread
I also have an idea
for have a more competitive/eSport assassinate what do you think about to remove the additional bonus points of grab-kill,acro-kill and hidden-kill when used on a stunned target?!?!

let me know :)

This has been discussed in a separate thread before.
If you dont want to be killed for tons of points, learn not to get stunned.
I hope this thread doesnt go off topic

WalrusPancakes
04-13-2013, 11:52 PM
This has been discussed in a separate thread before.
If you dont want to be killed for tons of points, learn not to get stunned.
I hope this thread doesnt go off topic
^Exactly.Simple,dont get stunned or baited into being stunned xD

Back to the topic,thats quite a post Chachi.Nice ^~^

G1ZMO_DRAG0N
04-14-2013, 12:22 AM
I agree with pretty much everything except for the knives fix. Should be nerfed to a higher cooldown and fix all range weapon notifications. We can avoid, predict knives and such already. all it really needs is a more accurate indication of it locking on to us and a longer cooldown to make it less frequent. Allowing us to use our abilities for other things besides surviving knives.

alexbentley
04-14-2013, 12:40 AM
WHAT PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE

The biggest problem among the playerbase with an eSports mindset right now is the concept of "******y playstyles." I've been guilty of it myself at times, but if the game goes eSport I'll look to be shoutcasting it, not playing it. The overwhelming negativity in the playerbase comes from the idea that there is a "right way" to play the game. The reason the game is fun and popular is because you can play it however you like. So you aren't prepared to go into eSports if you get all angry at the tiniest little things, like someone shooting your poison. People play to win. Assassin's Creed is a game very much centered around raining on the other person's parade. Think about it: the way a person is playing always bothers you less if they're talking in a party chat with you, because it can always seem like they're playing specifically to make you mad. But if you sit back and let people get max point kills on their stuns, you're trying to lose. Players need to learn to adapt to the way their opponents are playing instead of impotently raging about it on Twitter or what have you. The best way to play the game will always be evolving, so if you're going to get left behind, you won't find yourself on many competitive teams.

There are things players are doing right. The AA seasonal is a good thing. I don't like the mode myself, but I like the concept of the competitive focus, and the number of new clans that have risen to participate. It's been run well, things such as strict photo evidence policies are essential. But the seasonal by itself isn't going to suddenly drive AC forth into an eSports phase. That wasn't even the goal of the seasonal when it was made -- it was simply another tournament of a different format. These kinds of events need to continue and come from more sources and across more modes. PS3 and PC need to get larger competitive sides. Also, if you're a player who only plays ACB, rants and rages about the other two and never plays them, you aren't going to help in any way. That's just the way it goes, unfortunately. The group that will help the game move forward is the one that moves forward with it.

Also, ditch the ranting about everything Ubisoft does. They ran a tournament in Europe that was an obvious effort to test the game's potential in a competitive LAN setting, FOR YOU. The heavy response from the community was to whine and shout about the people chosen to play in it. You're not going to help or advance anything behaving like that and you aren't accurately representing the AC playerbase that IS pleased about Ubisoft investigating possibilities.

I think this isn't just necessary for getting AC to an eSport level, but for improving the AC community on all fronts. The forums aren't an entirely accurate representation of the AC community, but what they do show isn't exactly pleasant.


Great points, you definitely know what you're talking about. The only things I think I could add to your improvements is being able to tweak game mode parameters. For example, making it so AA could be first to 3 artifacts instead of the standard 10 minutes. Having the choice to pick from all maps seems like another sensible choice.

And as far as maps go more is always better, right? It's probably just a pipe dream, but I'd love it if they included every map made so far (ACB, ACR and AC3) alongside the new AC4 maps. Not splitting the playerbase with paid map pack DLC would be good too. :rolleyes:

WayneCain2
04-14-2013, 01:15 AM
Just for arguement I prefered to attack the lower side of Ippokratos that perch was easily avoidable and the way the roofs were on the other side it's almost impossible to get in if you're playing good defenders w/o teleporting in. Other than that nice reed

JayVaI
04-14-2013, 01:36 AM
There's one extremely important aspect of this particular multiplayer that will help the game's e-sports popularity to flourish if it is handled and improved correctly, that you, Chachi, haven't mentioned.

I made a thread about AC MP's e-sports potential some time ago and there I linked an interview where one of the most notable e-sports personalities John "TotalBiscuit" Bain touches on a important advantage that the AC mp has over any other game in the competitive games' realm: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/697058-TotalBsiquit-quot-Assassin-s-Creed-multipalyer-would-be-a-fantastic-E-Sports-game-quot

I think it's extremely important to make sure that if this game is to be more and more geared towards e-sports it should be made sure the uniqueness of the style of the game will be preserved and even enhanced from what it currently is. Tactical thinking, mind gaming and the aspect of uncertainty that the player can be seen to feel by the spectator in a game where barely no information about the other players (opponents) are given to the player are the "secret" ingredients for a game that is entertainingly exciting to watch and trough that a successful e-sports game. StarCraft especially, but League of Legends and FPS games to a some extent as-well all have these ingredients, and these ingredients are the sole reason why StarCraft2 is so popular as an spectator sport. The viewer numbers for major tournaments in StarCraft2 and League of Legends are about the same even though league of legends has like a 100x bigger player base (as does COD but COD's viewer numbers aren't even nearly comparable to those two other games as far as I know). It is because the people that watch StarCraft2 tournaments are mostly people that don't play the game or have only played it casually for a month or two before stopping playing. It is because StarCraft2 is a spectator sport just like soccer or basketball for example: they are exciting to watch and extreme skill is easily distinguished and appreciated even by a viewer that doesn't know the intricacies of the game. The core design of a game, the secret ingredients, are what makes a game true e-sports.

Or you can do what Riot does with LoL, but that would surely be much more expensive and harder to do and really would not work on an unique game like AC MP without first stripping it off from it's uniqueness and making it like melee only COD, a game that every grandma and their Bertha plays.

I am not saying all this trying to talk down COD and LoL and just praise StarCraft. I really want to make that sure to everyone because majority of people do play and watch COD and LoL. Just like Chachi said, those games are the most popular games in the world for god sakes! I want to tell you this because I know everyone here knows those two games, and I want to tell you that the model of COD and LoL is not the one and only model for an e-sports game. I want to tell you that because I don't want to have everyone thinking that that is the model what AC MP should aim for because it certainly is not, and I swear it never should try to go that route!

AC MP is certainly not COD. AC MP is definitely no LoL. AC MP is undoubtedly not StarCraft. So why do I bring up StarCraft as a good example then?

Because Assassin Creed Multiplayer is ****ing unique!

In my opinion, at the moment the game is moving away from the unique ways of tactics and mind games that are what sets this game apart from any other multiplayer game. By saying "unique ways of tactics and mind games" I mean, simply put, stealth, but I wouldn't want to use that word as I feel like nova-days no-one can take that word as anything more than a joke when talking about AC MP. Before you start saying you agree with me in this one I want you to hear this and think about it for a moment: The game is becoming more and more less stealthy, erratic, but it is not because of Ubisoft, it is not because of the way the developers changed the mechanics for AC3 MP or ACR MP, it is because of you. The competition in the game coupled with the way that people learned to play in AC of B obliterate chances for stealthy gameplay. I constantly hear from youtube and my player partners that ACB was the stealthy game and ever since then Ubisoft has made it less an less stealthy. The best players always scored high with all quality kills in ACB and they perfected many tricks to keep their stealth up to get silent and incog kills every time. No, that is not stealth, it is pure execution. Silent/incog kills does not equal stealth, even with the reversed detection meter that is not the case!

Ubisoft is the one that is going the right direction adding Contested kills, the reversed detection meter and the ambush bonus for example (I'm not saying those mechanics don't need further tweaking), but the majority of players are heading the wrong direction. I bet hardly no-one really tries to play stealthy especially in competitive games. I only know a guy or a girl who does that if I don't count myself in. To me it seems like AC mp veterans don't have the will or discipline to change their playstyle out of the way ACB is played and then everyone else follows them. I know, they still keep winning, they beat the **** out of players that try out stealthy playstyle every time so why would they change? No one can beat them because everyone just tries to mimic them and obviously no-one can execute those tactics better than the veterans themselves.

I know that even in the current game playing stealthy works in competitive games and that is because since AC3 came out I have been practicing a stealthy playstyle and only now in last month or two I have been able to put up a good fight against and beat the classic playstyles in competitive matches. Still, beating the best veteran players consistently by utilizing stealth is nearly impossible for me and I don't think I can ever do it alone. Even if I'm at my a-game stealthy style I cannot do good in those "legendary" lobbies and it is not because I get beaten, it is because I am alone. Just think about it; you in a lobby with 7 other equally skilled player and one of them tries to be stalthy, easy. What if you are the only one that isn't dedicated to trying to use a stealthy playstyle and everyone else is? Fine you use fc and kill your target. Okay, you manage to screen your target fast and knife and kill him, or you smoke-push-trick. Hmm but now you hear whispers and you have no clue where his coming and you're without abilities. You get lucky and you don't run straight at your pursuer but you get knifed, well darn, now he got at least an incog hidden on you... Well that is just my personal view on the matter but what is a fact, and I've proven it to myself and you should take my word on it, is that stealthy playstyles do work in the current game, people just don't have the dedication or will to really learn it. (And by stealthy playstyle I don't mean just like forcing yourself to walk and blend all the time and never taking a discreet/recless/chase kill, so please don't be stupid and think I'm that stupid)

So, as I see it, the game is constantly moving towards being solely an execution based game focused around timing your abilities better than your opponent. Sure it still takes a lot of skill to execute better than your opponent but that required skill for executing is not enough to make it a sustained e-sports game. A game like that lacks depth and a game that lacks depth is not exciting to watch. Social stealth, the cliché core pillar of the game is a whole new dimension in the realm of competitive gaming that sets AC MP apart from any other game in the world. It is the foundation that should be kept strong under the game as it is what provides the depth necessary to make this game an e-sport.

All the tactical thinking and mind gaming would be uniquely provided by social stealth and still the players would be required constantly throughout the matches in a split second to perfectly sketch the situation in their mind and use their twitch reflexes and strategical thinking they have been honing them in hundreds of matches before. That is the synergy of strategical depth and execution based twitch reflex moves that could make Assassin's Creed Multiplayer one of the best e-sports games ever.

Please, if you haven't already, watch the interview of TotalBiscuit here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/697058-TotalBsiquit-quot-Assassin-s-Creed-multipalyer-would-be-a-fantastic-E-Sports-game-quot

-HeJurm

TH3 F4T C0BRA
04-14-2013, 01:37 AM
I read chachi's post from top to bottom. Hate to be the debbie downer but, all of this with ubisoft will never happen. I want it to happen! It won't. Great post.

Chachi McSwaqq
04-14-2013, 04:41 AM
I think this isn't just necessary for getting AC to an eSport level, but for improving the AC community on all fronts. The forums aren't an entirely accurate representation of the AC community, but what they do show isn't exactly pleasant.


Great points, you definitely know what you're talking about. The only things I think I could add to your improvements is being able to tweak game mode parameters. For example, making it so AA could be first to 3 artifacts instead of the standard 10 minutes. Having the choice to pick from all maps seems like another sensible choice.

And as far as maps go more is always better, right? It's probably just a pipe dream, but I'd love it if they included every map made so far (ACB, ACR and AC3) alongside the new AC4 maps. Not splitting the playerbase with paid map pack DLC would be good too. :rolleyes:

The game mode parameter topic is one I touched on at the end of the Matchmaking paragraph. If not clear enough, I can edit it to be so.


AC MP is certainly not COD. AC MP is definitely no LoL. AC MP is undoubtedly not StarCraft. So why do I bring up StarCraft as a good example then?

Because Assassin Creed Multiplayer is ****ing unique!

In my opinion, at the moment the game is moving away from the unique ways of tactics and mind games that are what sets this game apart from any other multiplayer game. By saying "unique ways of tactics and mind games" I mean, simply put, stealth, but I wouldn't want to use that word as I feel like nova-days no-one can take that word as anything more than a joke when talking about AC MP. Before you start saying you agree with me in this one I want you to hear this and think about it for a moment: The game is becoming more and more less stealthy, erratic, but it is not because of Ubisoft, it is not because of the way the developers changed the mechanics for AC3 MP or ACR MP, it is because of you. The competition in the game coupled with the way that people learned to play in AC of B obliterate chances for stealthy gameplay. I constantly hear from youtube and my player partners that ACB was the stealthy game and ever since then Ubisoft has made it less an less stealthy. The best players always scored high with all quality kills in ACB and they perfected many tricks to keep their stealth up to get silent and incog kills every time. No, that is not stealth, it is pure execution. Silent/incog kills does not equal stealth, even with the reversed detection meter that is not the case!

Ubisoft is the one that is going the right direction adding Contested kills, the reversed detection meter and the ambush bonus for example (I'm not saying those mechanics don't need further tweaking), but the majority of players are heading the wrong direction. I bet hardly no-one really tries to play stealthy especially in competitive games. I only know a guy or a girl who does that if I don't count myself in. To me it seems like AC mp veterans don't have the will or discipline to change their playstyle out of the way ACB is played and then everyone else follows them. I know, they still keep winning, they beat the **** out of players that try out stealthy playstyle every time so why would they change? No one can beat them because everyone just tries to mimic them and obviously no-one can execute those tactics better than the veterans themselves.

I know that even in the current game playing stealthy works in competitive games and that is because since AC3 came out I have been practicing a stealthy playstyle and only now in last month or two I have been able to put up a good fight against and beat the classic playstyles in competitive matches. Still, beating the best veteran players consistently by utilizing stealth is nearly impossible for me and I don't think I can ever do it alone. Even if I'm at my a-game stealthy style I cannot do good in those "legendary" lobbies and it is not because I get beaten, it is because I am alone. Just think about it; you in a lobby with 7 other equally skilled player and one of them tries to be stalthy, easy. What if you are the only one that isn't dedicated to trying to use a stealthy playstyle and everyone else is? Fine you use fc and kill your target. Okay, you manage to screen your target fast and knife and kill him, or you smoke-push-trick. Hmm but now you hear whispers and you have no clue where his coming and you're without abilities. You get lucky and you don't run straight at your pursuer but you get knifed, well darn, now he got at least an incog hidden on you... Well that is just my personal view on the matter but what is a fact, and I've proven it to myself and you should take my word on it, is that stealthy playstyles do work in the current game, people just don't have the dedication or will to really learn it. (And by stealthy playstyle I don't mean just like forcing yourself to walk and blend all the time and never taking a discreet/recless/chase kill, so please don't be stupid and think I'm that stupid)

So, as I see it, the game is constantly moving towards being solely an execution based game focused around timing your abilities better than your opponent. Sure it still takes a lot of skill to execute better than your opponent but that required skill for executing is not enough to make it a sustained e-sports game. A game like that lacks depth and a game that lacks depth is not exciting to watch. Social stealth, the cliché core pillar of the game is a whole new dimension in the realm of competitive gaming that sets AC MP apart from any other game in the world. It is the foundation that should be kept strong under the game as it is what provides the depth necessary to make this game an e-sport.

All the tactical thinking and mind gaming would be uniquely provided by social stealth and still the players would be required constantly throughout the matches in a split second to perfectly sketch the situation in their mind and use their twitch reflexes and strategical thinking they have been honing them in hundreds of matches before. That is the synergy of strategical depth and execution based twitch reflex moves that could make Assassin's Creed Multiplayer one of the best e-sports games ever.

-HeJurm

I bring up Call of Duty and League of Legends as examples in specific cases, not the model Assassin's Creed needs to follow. League of Legends represents balance among game mechanics and Call of Duty represents necessary viewing modes. AC is never going to be like either of them, but trying to force the game to stealth is just as dangerous as it becoming so. There is no "core pillar" to the game. No pillar is more important than the others. You may prefer to play using that of social stealth, that's fine. You have the choice. Social stealth also needs a buff because at the moment it's the weaker of playstyles. But the fast and aggressive playstyle cannot be removed from the game. That isn't the way to make the game "unique," the game's uniqueness is in the fact that there isn't a right way to play it. The game's uniqueness is in the possibility of one team running around wildly and killing everything that moves, while the other team hides, disguises, moves about stealthily, and in having that be a close game. All of my suggested changes are purely defined towards making the game playable in multiple ways. Stealth needs to be buffed, or aggression needs to be weakened. But aggression should not in any way be removed from the game. Your statements are very much leaning towards that objective if I interpret them correctly. It doesn't make you wrong, but I find that a dangerous position to take. If AC becomes focused entirely around stealth, it will have a limited future as an eSport because it will feature none of the fast-paced action that current eSports fans enjoy viewing. The best way for both playstyles to become effective is for Artifact Assault, Domination and Manhunt all to become professional-ready. Artifact Assault is never going to be played stealthily at an eSport level by any team that can win. Domination has to be hybridized to be played properly. Manhunt could be either, but with a buff to stealth, that would most likely become the emphasis.

Assuming I interpreted anything you said wrongly, you're welcome to clarify. Otherwise, I would say my opinion is somewhat differing in proper changes.


I read chachi's post from top to bottom. Hate to be the debbie downer but, all of this with ubisoft will never happen. I want it to happen! It won't. Great post.

Thank you, but there is no need for this response. You act like Ubisoft is obstinately set against eSports within the series or in general. Ubisoft already runs one of the major eSports, Shootmania. You have no reasons to make such a claim behind the standard negativity that the post speaks of. So if you ACTUALLY want it to happen, you should lose that attitude.

KatelynD
04-14-2013, 08:14 AM
Think about it: the way a person is playing always bothers you less if they're talking in a party chat with you, because it can always seem like they're playing specifically to make you mad.

I think raging at other players is due almost entirely to the role of anonymity. Not having social (especially facial) cues to modulate our responses to other people makes us act horribly to each other. If only there was a way to fix that!

JayVaI
04-14-2013, 09:28 AM
The game mode parameter topic is one I touched on at the end of the Matchmaking paragraph. If not clear enough, I can edit it to be so.



I bring up Call of Duty and League of Legends as examples in specific cases, not the model Assassin's Creed needs to follow. League of Legends represents balance among game mechanics and Call of Duty represents necessary viewing modes. AC is never going to be like either of them, but trying to force the game to stealth is just as dangerous as it becoming so. There is no "core pillar" to the game. No pillar is more important than the others. You may prefer to play using that of social stealth, that's fine. You have the choice. Social stealth also needs a buff because at the moment it's the weaker of playstyles. But the fast and aggressive playstyle cannot be removed from the game. That isn't the way to make the game "unique," the game's uniqueness is in the fact that there isn't a right way to play it. The game's uniqueness is in the possibility of one team running around wildly and killing everything that moves, while the other team hides, disguises, moves about stealthily, and in having that be a close game. All of my suggested changes are purely defined towards making the game playable in multiple ways. Stealth needs to be buffed, or aggression needs to be weakened. But aggression should not in any way be removed from the game. Your statements are very much leaning towards that objective if I interpret them correctly. It doesn't make you wrong, but I find that a dangerous position to take. If AC becomes focused entirely around stealth, it will have a limited future as an eSport because it will feature none of the fast-paced action that current eSports fans enjoy viewing. The best way for both playstyles to become effective is for Artifact Assault, Domination and Manhunt all to become professional-ready. Artifact Assault is never going to be played stealthily at an eSport level by any team that can win. Domination has to be hybridized to be played properly. Manhunt could be either, but with a buff to stealth, that would most likely become the emphasis.

Assuming I interpreted anything you said wrongly, you're welcome to clarify. Otherwise, I would say my opinion is somewhat differing in proper changes.

I completely agree with you with everything you have written.

What I'm trying to say is that stealth is the one aspect of the game that will make it more exciting to watch. You can take anyone and have them watch AC MP and they will instantly be intrigued by the stealth aspect. They immediately realize the concept that you as a viewer know more about the situation in the game than the player that is playing does. That is what creates tension in the viewer. Someone who never played AC MP cannot appreciate clever use of abilities or stuff like that, but stealth, and chases too, are basic concepts of the game that are easily understandable by everyone. That is why I bring up stealth so much in my post. Free running, abilities and aggressive playstyles are as important concepts too, but there's no need for me to bring those up as much because of the way the game is currently being played, those aspects are evolving all the time but stealthy playstyles are only dwindling.

AC MP can't follow the LoL model because it will never have the same amount of players that LoL has, and because of the smaller player base AC MP should enhance the basic concepts important for it to be an exciting game to watch for people that even doesn't play the game.

I mentioned chases, I actually have made a post about chases and that something should be done to them. http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/662385-ACIII-Multiplayer-Suggestions?p=8530092#post8530092 Chases right now are just stupid, take them completely out of the game or change them somehow. Taking them out of the game wouldn't be good though, because just like I said, chases are a concept that would be good for a spectator sport.

DomdudeDaGreat
04-14-2013, 10:59 AM
It would be great for the multiplayer and the series as a whole if this was implemented. The issue is is the fact that all the big esports series have a playerbase of millions. Now whilst Assassins Creed is a massive series i would say only about 50000 people play the multiplayer consistently, lately more like 4000 on PS3, as I am constantly running into the same people in different modes. For this to work there has to be a bigger playerbase, something that can only be done by Ubisoft having the initiative to improve the multiplayer and bring something new to the multiplayer, which has remained virtually unchanged since Brotherhood. (Mechanics and problems wise).

Chachi McSwaqq
04-14-2013, 11:42 AM
I completely agree with you with everything you have written.

What I'm trying to say is that stealth is the one aspect of the game that will make it more exciting to watch. You can take anyone and have them watch AC MP and they will instantly be intrigued by the stealth aspect. They immediately realize the concept that you as a viewer know more about the situation in the game than the player that is playing does. That is what creates tension in the viewer. Someone who never played AC MP cannot appreciate clever use of abilities or stuff like that, but stealth, and chases too, are basic concepts of the game that are easily understandable by everyone. That is why I bring up stealth so much in my post. Free running, abilities and aggressive playstyles are as important concepts too, but there's no need for me to bring those up as much because of the way the game is currently being played, those aspects are evolving all the time but stealthy playstyles are only dwindling.

AC MP can't follow the LoL model because it will never have the same amount of players that LoL has, and because of the smaller player base AC MP should enhance the basic concepts important for it to be an exciting game to watch for people that even doesn't play the game.

I mentioned chases, I actually have made a post about chases and that something should be done to them. http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/662385-ACIII-Multiplayer-Suggestions?p=8530092#post8530092 Chases right now are just stupid, take them completely out of the game or change them somehow. Taking them out of the game wouldn't be good though, because just like I said, chases are a concept that would be good for a spectator sport.

Yes. For the audience to know more than the player, a spectator mode is essential as well. And chases would fall under the mechanics, mainly the sensitivity of the RDM needs a reduction IMO but Im not doing a ton of specific mechanics in this thread.

Jaanii95
04-14-2013, 01:00 PM
This has been discussed in a separate thread before.
If you dont want to be killed for tons of points, learn not to get stunned.
I hope this thread doesnt go off topic
I don't think that's his problem. He mean that you shouldn't get rewarded for baiting and stunning noobs for 1k per kill. Some people intentionally only go after noobs and run away from the good people to get the highest score possible. The game should reward kills more. That's why I think that the ACB detection meter should be back in ACIV. At least for Assassinate.

SillySin
04-14-2013, 03:55 PM
if you're a player who only plays ACB, rants and rages about the other two and never plays them, you aren't going to help in any way. That's just the way it goes, unfortunately. The group that will help the game move forward is the one that moves forward with it.

This ^

bolz87
04-15-2013, 10:11 AM
There's another problem: cheaters/hackers/exploiters on PC and exploiters on consoles :mad: Ubi is doing nothing against them!

Chachi McSwaqq
04-15-2013, 01:07 PM
That works, but Assassinate isn't going to be an eSports mode. I'm sort of only talking about the eSports side in this thread.

PooBrainHorse
04-15-2013, 02:13 PM
That works, but Assassinate isn't going to be an eSports mode. I'm sort of only talking about the eSports side in this thread.

Why do you think it's not going to be on the eSports list? Players have bigger control over contracts and stuff ( i know some people complain about Wanted and Deathmatch being to luck-based)
On the other hand assa is too fast paced to represent the stealth aspect of AC MP.
P.S i hate Assa

Assassinsyk
04-15-2013, 03:27 PM
Chachi McSqauqq for president!

Seriously, great post. I x-posted it on www.reddit.com/r/abstergonetwork, and hope UBI will listen.

Chachi McSwaqq
04-15-2013, 04:50 PM
Chachi McSqauqq for president!

Seriously, great post. I x-posted it on www.reddit.com/r/abstergonetwork, and hope UBI will listen.

Thanks for the share :D

Hopefully they will, but I'm also more than open to it if they find other things to change, as long as it eventually reaches the upper level.

persiateddy95
04-15-2013, 05:26 PM
So you're saying people should adapt to the current playstyles in the game, stop complaining and just deal with it?

Because the game can be much more skillful than it is right now, and it's sad seeing that sacrificed for the sake of "eSports".

Emvidasch
04-15-2013, 08:17 PM
Long post (and math) incoming:

AC is a tough cookie to crack on eSports level, that's for sure. Why? Let's start with player interaction.

Comparing it to CoD (yeah yeah) there's a big difference in player interaction. Defining a bad CoD player, factors like lack of reaction time, proper aim and map knowledge will cause this player to be considered "bad". Now how does a good player cope with that? He/she will simply shoot him and receive a reward for being better.
In AC, a bad player is usually defined by his/her lack of map knowledge, lack of mechanics knowledge (e.g. the detection meter, bonuses,...) and probably most importantly, lack of stealth. So how does a good AC player cope with that? He/she is likely to get point starved by this player because the only thing that can properly counter a runner is the Pistol. Why not knives? AwkwardlyBrutal pointed out in one of his videos that knives will slow down someone, but rarely in such a way that you can safely kill him/her without initializing a chase. He said that right after using the gun to get an Ambush Execution kill for 300 points. Another counter could be Teleport, but that is difficult to control and very situational. Flanking could be viable but is no longer rewarded as much with RDM. Surely the execution does compensate for this, but in the perspective of a stealthy playstyle it doesn't count towards a Silent Streak.
And I'm only talking about "bad" players. Experienced and tactical players with actual knowledge of point starving will rarely fall for a counter like teleport, and will do their very best to zig-zag between every object to prevent that bullet form hitting them. What results is the pursuer either having to wait for the target to get taken out by someone else, wait to get killed so he/she can respawn with a new contract, or start a chase and use his/her skill to avoid defensive abilities and get the best chasekill that opportunity grants.

Which brings us to the part of "lack of variation". We're given cool concepts in terms of abilities and all but only a few of them are executed in such a way that they provide counters. Not to mention a lot of abilities counter the same problems : e.g. firecrackers, moneybomb and Wipe all counter blending, which means that only the abilities with other attributes are chosen over the one's that don't: e.g. Firecrackers can blind and Wipe blocks abilities, leaving Moneybomb useless, unless you really make a lot of use of the fact that civilians can block your pursuer as they gather the money. Imagine that Firecrackers only blinds opponents and Wipe only blocks abilities, I think we'd be seeing a lot of people bringing money bomb and offensive Morph to counter blending opponents. Based on that, it could be interesting for the devs to design abilities in a more unique fashion to promote variety and in turn also balance the abilities overall.

Next debate; the "thit-for-that" game (I know it's not spelled like that, just avoiding unnecessary censoring). What do I mean by that? First of all don't Google thit-for-that, because I just used that term to give the issue some name. When talking about counters it is usually a problem because counters form a chain with an end. What do I mean by that? Here's a situation:

Player 1 throws knife, it's super effective.
Player 1 runs in for the stun!
Player 2 activates his trap card!
Player 2 uses Offensive Smoke Bomb to counter the knives.
Player 1 is Paralyzed, he/she can't move!
Player 2 kills player Player 1!
Player 2 receives 350 exp.

The chain of counters ended due to Player 1 running into the smoke bomb, ending the chain. What happens? Player 1 is angry about smoke bombs because that's where the chain ended. Now imagine Player 1 using Shield to in turn counter the Smoke bomb. The chain ends with Shield and player 2 is displeased because there was no counter to the shield for him/her. This is a situation based on "hard" abilities. Abilities that directly yield results when used on another player. Which ones aren't? Bodyguard, Morph, Glimmer, Decoy and Money Bomb. These abilities affect the environment and it's dependant on the reaction of other players whether it will be successful. Bodyguard is a bit tricky to define like that, but in the end whether the player "falls for it" or not decides if the ability is successful. Abilities like those can't start or stop a chain and are thus full related to (a word I hate to use) "skill". Note that some of their counters (e.g. firecrackers) CAN start a chain.

Now before everyone goes "aha see smoke doesn't take any skill to use!" it does but in a different way. "Soft" abilities simply require the skill to not fall for them. Screening, paying attention to your compass, finding the odd one out are all natural skills that are acquired through experience. If the entire game was based around these abilities, you'd have a game leaning almost completely towards pure skill. There still wouldn't be any counters to running, which is why I'm saying 'almost'.

Now to tackle the "hard" abilities. These ones are so difficult to balance because the chain always has to end somewhere, and people tend to regard said end as annoying. This is one of the many parts where I'm stuck on looking for a solution. I could say in the example that Player 1 should have expected the smoke bomb and thus used the shield. And that Player 2 shouldn't have been so obvious, causing Player 1 to throw the knife in the first place. The order in which you use abilities seems to play a vital role, as well as the decisions you make. If possible, and I know this is an assignment for developers that could take years, it would be best that any combination of 6 hard abilities (with repetition up until 2) must result in an equal amount of outcomes for all possible orders they're placed in. Mathematicians will probably be nodding now, while some people have already flipped their desks over trying to read and understand that sentence. Basically what we're looking at is two players picking 3 abilities (let's just forget that one slot is limited to ranged abilities for now, unless you're a die hard math lover) from the entire arsenal each and then, with those selected abilties, use them in a specific order. So a breakdown:

1) Pick 3 abilities out of 18 (18 being the amount of abilities in the current game)
2) AND pick 3 abilities again out of 18 amount (for Player 2)
3) AND Form all possible combinations with those six abilities

Because the order doesn't matter in 1. and 2. we use a combination while in 3. it does matter so we use a permutation. The final result (if I didn't mess up because it's been a year since I did this kind of math) would be:

816 * 816 * 720 = 479 416 320 possibilities. No way Ubisoft has the time and funding to deal with all that. But it does give a better idea why there will ALWAYS be unbalancing in a game, eSports or not. The chain will always end in some way and currently in most cases that is either the smoke bomb or shield. Point is, 'hard' abilities are currently the problem that you rarely see in other games. In CoD you use the gun which offers a balance between doing damage and how comfortable you are with using it. I have never seen anyone say, oh he's using this gun I better switch mine to a different one to counter it. It will do nothing. The "hard' ability issue is one solely for AC and one which must be dealt with should AC want to become an eSport.

Chachi also pointed out some 'minor' things he'd like to see changed. Just to calm down some people in advance, we're only talking eSports here. It's not like AC will become all eSport and only competitive players will be able to have fun. eSports happen in private events and the changes made in that perspective will likely either allow eSports or even improve the game for just regular players (e.g. constant patches will be seen a lot more under the pressure of being an eSport, but regular players will also benefit from it). Let us also not forget that massive attention to a game means more money for the company, allowing better products. AC is now considered a AAA game, which are typically known for large budgets, appealing to large groups and (opinions may vary) lack of innovation. If you want daring and new concepts I suggest looking into Indie games. But if you love AC, you should know what a company is capable of with more funding.

Onto maps, there are indeed issues regarding balancing in team modes, especially Artifact Assault. Uneven maps, while great for FFA, can cause unfair advantages or disadvantages for certain teams. Completely symmetrical maps however, tend to be boring in a FFA game. Mode specific maps can provide a solution, though I'm not sure will always be appreciated.

The lock system has been something that players have been tripping over. ACB's locking system was absolute, you could not interact with anyone else once you were locked onto someone. This frequently led to frustrations by some players who found themselves unable to interact with someone close to them because they forgot to remove their lock or because their lock constantly targeted someone in High Profile. I also find it harder to lock someone in a moving blend group. Even with precision lock it tends to stick to NPCs.
Now Ubisoft changed the lock system in ACR and AC3 to more of a free system. Locking was made easier (in my opinion), but the lock was no longer absolute. As such, it was possible to lock your target while also being able to interact with things that are near you (the so called "highlight"). Looking at AC3, this causes players to either accidentally kill a civilian (occurred only rarely to me) or stun/kill someone while they wished to do the opposite to the person they were locked onto.
2 systems with each their own pros and cons. So which one do we absolutely pick for the future? The answer: "why not have both?"
Flexibility of a game is vital for eSports. Preferences like music, button assignment, camera control, etc. are all tweakable to the players' liking. With something as delicate and important as the locking system, a player should be able to choose between either lock systems. This solves the debate, pleases both parties and shouldn't be too big of a hassle for the company considering the Lock system can be copy/pasted from ACB, or an option to change it can be added to the game's code should the system be based on ACB's. I don't know if it's been revamped completely or some changes have been made to the existing is what I'm trying to say.

I'm gonna stop here now. I'll leave everyone with saying that it will not be for AC4, nor AC5 that AC will make it into eSports. It will require a lot more trial and error before we're getting there, and implementing something like a free cam mode is a lot of work. Games are made by people, not superhumans. They need caffeine and pizza too to do their jobs.

Thanks if you took the time to read this, and the worlds biggest internet cookie if you redo the math thing while keeping the ranged slot in account. I can do it but I'm super lazy right now, which is like normal lazy but I'm also wearing a cape.

Goodbye o/

Mc Dudes
04-15-2013, 09:32 PM
Hey chachi you should have made a video about this instead, because im to lazy to read it all and I bet a lot of others are as well xD. No but seriously a video would be more appreciated :D.
(I will try to read it all anyway tho, when I get time, im a really slow reader just saying...)

Chachi McSwaqq
04-15-2013, 11:02 PM
Hey chachi you should have made a video about this instead, because im to lazy to read it all and I bet a lot of others are as well xD. No but seriously a video would be more appreciated :D.
(I will try to read it all anyway tho, when I get time, im a really slow reader just saying...)

I will be making a video.

Chachi McSwaqq
04-15-2013, 11:03 PM
So you're saying people should adapt to the current playstyles in the game, stop complaining and just deal with it?

Because the game can be much more skillful than it is right now, and it's sad seeing that sacrificed for the sake of "eSports".

No, the game will be more skillful if the changes I suggested to buff stealth are adopted. As for now yeah, deal with it, people who just shout constantly will deservedly get nothing from Ubisoft.

Mc Dudes
04-15-2013, 11:27 PM
I will be making a video.
Nice :)

Chachi McSwaqq
04-17-2013, 11:40 AM
Nice :)

Yup, idk when it'll be out though, it may take a while.

PooBrainHorse
04-17-2013, 12:16 PM
Yup, idk when it'll be out though, it may take a while.


What do you mean by "the bounce kill master" ?

Chachi McSwaqq
04-18-2013, 03:12 PM
What do you mean by "the bounce kill master" ?

Has to do with drop stuns being removed.

Chachi McSwaqq
04-21-2013, 02:44 AM
The first of a three part video discussing this thread has been uploaded. Check my Twitter for the link.

Vaiire
04-21-2013, 09:06 AM
After having read through all of that, I concluded that white text on black/charcoal backgrounds hurts my brain. Regardless, you make a very detailed argument and I, for one, appreciate all of those points. From my perspective, the Assassin's Creed franchise has been about it's single-player prowess with it's multi-player being nothing more than a bonus. AC1 started with a great atmosphere, and a majority of the fan-base proclaim AC2 to be a masterpiece. Brotherhood, Revelations and AC3 have all been an outstanding experience. In my eyes, it surpassed all the other stale, generic FPS multi-players out there. But despite all the innovation Ubisoft has shown, I don't think Assassin's Creed could ever rise to the standing of eSports-- not that I claim to know what that term even means.

As it stands, the Assassin's Creed multi-player is probably the most articulate and strategical multi-player games outside of the RTS genre; and that's a really great thing. But lately, the AC multi-player experience has grown kind of stale. It's just become a bit of a one-trick pony, and I think it's time for Ubisoft to stop tacking it on to all of their subsequent games. I picked up Assassin's Creed for the single-player story, and I thoroughly enjoyed the multi-player; but it just isn't open to newer players anymore. Assassin's Creed isn't like Halo or CoD, there is a steep learning curve and newer players are never going to get the hang of things if all they do is get beaten down by all the Prestige/veteran players. Talk about an "honour system" all you want, but there are always going to be people who revert back to Pistol/OSB and there are always going to be others to complain about it. Remove Smoke Bomb and then people will just complain about Throwing Knives. Remove those and people will complain about Firecrackers.

It is an endless cycle and it needs to just lie down for a little bit. Maybe re-release it in a later game when it has been thoroughly made and not just hastily tossed together in a couple of months by a different team. If it were to ever reach eSports level, then it definitely needs to follow your ideas, Chachi; but in order to do that, Ubisoft needs to cut it out of their game and take a break for a while.

Emvidasch
04-21-2013, 10:04 AM
Something I noticed thinking about maps was that in AC3, maps like New York Brewery and Fort Wolcot both seem to be maps that limit playstyles, because they limit player movement. Most maps in both ACB and ACR were pretty much fully accessible up to the Animus Barriers that bordered off the maps. Inside those barriers you could pretty much climb everything. My first Manhunt match on Fort Wolcott in AC3, a target walked up to me way too confident, basically carrying a sign over his head saying: "I have a smoke bomb and I'm going to use it on you". Logical counter, run up the wall and acro him. What happened, my character ran into some wall like an idiot, got himself smoked and stunned. At the time I was pretty frustrated: "You really can't climb this thing?". New York Brewery also has a similar system where it's impossible to get on top of the large buildings. The only elevations are the different floors (accessible by stairs) or the boxes outside and a small part of the stables. That's it. I think maps like these limit player styles. If the person in first place in a FFA says, I'm going on the rooftops of NY brewery and camp with a tripwire, he can sabotage a lot of players as they all have to get up there and adapt their playstyles. Accessible and open maps will bring more variety in both gameplay and playstyles. Imagine running across the rooftops of Fort Wolcott during AA, it'll be a lot harder to defend those artifacts making a more spectacular and entertaining match.

More freedom in movement means more "natural counters". Smoke got balanced directly (cooldown and duration) and more counters were provided (shield and wipe), but these counters are mainly abilities. Natural counters like hanging off an edge or quickly running up a wall aren't as effective anymore (e.g. limited map movement), which is a shame as this will cause those constant ability chains I was talking about in my previous post. A natural counter ends the chain with nothing to complain about. Unless you have a severe case of the stupid, I'm fairly certain nobody is going on the forums preaching "running up a wall is OP, nerf pls". This brings out more talent, and less exchange of abilities. The ability to predict someone's ability use and dodge by using the environment can add a lot more to a match than just hitting a button every 100 seconds to use Shield.

What do you think of this?

Chachi McSwaqq
04-22-2013, 04:50 AM
Something I noticed thinking about maps was that in AC3, maps like New York Brewery and Fort Wolcot both seem to be maps that limit playstyles, because they limit player movement. Most maps in both ACB and ACR were pretty much fully accessible up to the Animus Barriers that bordered off the maps. Inside those barriers you could pretty much climb everything. My first Manhunt match on Fort Wolcott in AC3, a target walked up to me way too confident, basically carrying a sign over his head saying: "I have a smoke bomb and I'm going to use it on you". Logical counter, run up the wall and acro him. What happened, my character ran into some wall like an idiot, got himself smoked and stunned. At the time I was pretty frustrated: "You really can't climb this thing?". New York Brewery also has a similar system where it's impossible to get on top of the large buildings. The only elevations are the different floors (accessible by stairs) or the boxes outside and a small part of the stables. That's it. I think maps like these limit player styles. If the person in first place in a FFA says, I'm going on the rooftops of NY brewery and camp with a tripwire, he can sabotage a lot of players as they all have to get up there and adapt their playstyles. Accessible and open maps will bring more variety in both gameplay and playstyles. Imagine running across the rooftops of Fort Wolcott during AA, it'll be a lot harder to defend those artifacts making a more spectacular and entertaining match.

More freedom in movement means more "natural counters". Smoke got balanced directly (cooldown and duration) and more counters were provided (shield and wipe), but these counters are mainly abilities. Natural counters like hanging off an edge or quickly running up a wall aren't as effective anymore (e.g. limited map movement), which is a shame as this will cause those constant ability chains I was talking about in my previous post. A natural counter ends the chain with nothing to complain about. Unless you have a severe case of the stupid, I'm fairly certain nobody is going on the forums preaching "running up a wall is OP, nerf pls". This brings out more talent, and less exchange of abilities. The ability to predict someone's ability use and dodge by using the environment can add a lot more to a match than just hitting a button every 100 seconds to use Shield.

What do you think of this?

All of that is correct IMO, that's why I state Saint Pierre as the best map in the series. You can run on literally everything but the buildings are short and leave plenty of open space to hide in groups. The map looking amazing is just an added bonus.

Chachi McSwaqq
04-22-2013, 04:51 AM
After having read through all of that, I concluded that white text on black/charcoal backgrounds hurts my brain. Regardless, you make a very detailed argument and I, for one, appreciate all of those points. From my perspective, the Assassin's Creed franchise has been about it's single-player prowess with it's multi-player being nothing more than a bonus. AC1 started with a great atmosphere, and a majority of the fan-base proclaim AC2 to be a masterpiece. Brotherhood, Revelations and AC3 have all been an outstanding experience. In my eyes, it surpassed all the other stale, generic FPS multi-players out there. But despite all the innovation Ubisoft has shown, I don't think Assassin's Creed could ever rise to the standing of eSports-- not that I claim to know what that term even means.

As it stands, the Assassin's Creed multi-player is probably the most articulate and strategical multi-player games outside of the RTS genre; and that's a really great thing. But lately, the AC multi-player experience has grown kind of stale. It's just become a bit of a one-trick pony, and I think it's time for Ubisoft to stop tacking it on to all of their subsequent games. I picked up Assassin's Creed for the single-player story, and I thoroughly enjoyed the multi-player; but it just isn't open to newer players anymore. Assassin's Creed isn't like Halo or CoD, there is a steep learning curve and newer players are never going to get the hang of things if all they do is get beaten down by all the Prestige/veteran players. Talk about an "honour system" all you want, but there are always going to be people who revert back to Pistol/OSB and there are always going to be others to complain about it. Remove Smoke Bomb and then people will just complain about Throwing Knives. Remove those and people will complain about Firecrackers.

It is an endless cycle and it needs to just lie down for a little bit. Maybe re-release it in a later game when it has been thoroughly made and not just hastily tossed together in a couple of months by a different team. If it were to ever reach eSports level, then it definitely needs to follow your ideas, Chachi; but in order to do that, Ubisoft needs to cut it out of their game and take a break for a while.

Taking a break from multiplayer in a game would definitely give them the time to perfect what they need to have in a competitive title. However it isn't the only way for these things to be done, and I doubt they will leave multiplayer out in any future game.

JayVaI
04-22-2013, 03:30 PM
Just watched your video. I made a long post about stealth in this thread and in your video you talked about how clueless people that say AC MP should be all about stealth are. I also talked about why AC MP should not learn from LoLs example and you in your video said LoL is the one and only that should be looked at as an exmaple for e-sports.

I don't want to look bad in the eyes of the community, but especially you, the 1st shoutcaster of the game. Let me say first that I know my **** and I hope that if you directed those comments even partly to me I hope this clears out things for you. If you didn't direct those to me let this be just my thoughts better explained. I would be glad to hear any kind of response.

The first one is completely true, people who think like that are completely oblivious on how e-sports work. I hope you did not think I was one of them, as I only wrote about stealth so much because it's mechanics should be looked at and improved by Ubisoft. Stealth like in AC MP is really unique and it should be utilized as best as possible. But as I said I'm not so dumb to think it's the only thing that need improving. As the saying goes: Variety is the spice of gaming.

The second one I disagree with you. Why did LoL become so popular so fast? Because Riot threw in money in millions only to support the e-sports growth in that game. Becasue it is free to play and is focused around making money off micro-transactions. Because it is a MOBA, which is a main-stream gaming genre. Becasue LoL is the most popular game in the world. Because pretty much only people who play LoL watch LoL, except maybe in South-Korean or Taiwan, maybe China, but I'm not sure if that's happening even in these professional-gaming positive cultures/countries. But that's no thing for LoL, more people play LoL than watch the Super-Bowl, so it's easy for them.

Think about Ubisoft and AC MP. At least for me it is hard to see Ubisoft putting in enough money to convincingly grow e-sports for AC4. It is impossible for me to see Ubisoft making AC MP free to play. Even if they made it a "seperate game" and free, the amount of people who would be interested in it would be abysmally small considering the effort Ubisoft is currently putting into marketing the MP portion of the game. The point is that I don't see AC MP getting nearly big enough of a player-base to have the e-sports in this game ride the waves of a title like "one of the biggest multiplayer games ever". I also doubt Ubisoft gets enough money from micro-transactions and game sales to sufficiently invest into the "professional scene" in the MP.

A huge player-base and ridiculous investments are not necessities though. If the game is designed properly anyone will watch it just because of it's easily understandable basic principles like chasing people, parkouring, sneaking around, assassinating and brutal killing, which all are intriguing to watch and compelling to a lot of different kind of people. When a lot of people are interested in watching it money will be thrown at the game and its playerbase can start growing.

"I heard JayVal is really stealthy, no-one can see him!" "But he can't ever catch Neenking because he is sooo good at parkour." "Yep, and Ranin's reflexes let him be really agressive and still survive!" "Well, NovaMage will let his target kill his pursuer before he moves in for a clean kill, that's a master-mind for you." "But this guy misleads all other players with his trickery." and so on... Tell about the players like that to a friend and he will be interested even if he never played the game. Can you that with LoL? This kind of variety only in the basic principles already is something almost no other game than AC MP has. Everyone who plays and understands a bit more AC MP would definitely watch it because there is a lot more that goes into the game, intricacies of advanced movements and "ability wars" for example. But some kind of intricacies that can create competition can be found literally in any game.

The basic mechanics are what AC MP as an E-Sport should be build around, abilities and hard-to-pull-off moves are a bit less important because a good ability balance won't make a game interesting to watch to anyone except the ones who play it.

(HeJurm is my original account, forgot email and haven't got it done to have it solved so I'm using this account. I don't want anyone think I'm inexperienced of the game.)

Chachi McSwaqq
04-22-2013, 10:36 PM
Just watched your video. I made a long post about stealth in this thread and in your video you talked about how clueless people that say AC MP should be all about stealth are. I also talked about why AC MP should not learn from LoLs example and you in your video said LoL is the one and only that should be looked at as an exmaple for e-sports.

I don't want to look bad in the eyes of the community, but especially you, the 1st shoutcaster of the game. Let me say first that I know my **** and I hope that if you directed those comments even partly to me I hope this clears out things for you. If you didn't direct those to me let this be just my thoughts better explained. I would be glad to hear any kind of response.

The first one is completely true, people who think like that are completely oblivious on how e-sports work. I hope you did not think I was one of them, as I only wrote about stealth so much because it's mechanics should be looked at and improved by Ubisoft. Stealth like in AC MP is really unique and it should be utilized as best as possible. But as I said I'm not so dumb to think it's the only thing that need improving. As the saying goes: Variety is the spice of gaming.

The second one I disagree with you. Why did LoL become so popular so fast? Because Riot threw in money in millions only to support the e-sports growth in that game. Becasue it is free to play and is focused around making money off micro-transactions. Because it is a MOBA, which is a main-stream gaming genre. Becasue LoL is the most popular game in the world. Because pretty much only people who play LoL watch LoL, except maybe in South-Korean or Taiwan, maybe China, but I'm not sure if that's happening even in these professional-gaming positive cultures/countries. But that's no thing for LoL, more people play LoL than watch the Super-Bowl, so it's easy for them.

Think about Ubisoft and AC MP. At least for me it is hard to see Ubisoft putting in enough money to convincingly grow e-sports for AC4. It is impossible for me to see Ubisoft making AC MP free to play. Even if they made it a "seperate game" and free, the amount of people who would be interested in it would be abysmally small considering the effort Ubisoft is currently putting into marketing the MP portion of the game. The point is that I don't see AC MP getting nearly big enough of a player-base to have the e-sports in this game ride the waves of a title like "one of the biggest multiplayer games ever". I also doubt Ubisoft gets enough money from micro-transactions and game sales to sufficiently invest into the "professional scene" in the MP.

A huge player-base and ridiculous investments are not necessities though. If the game is designed properly anyone will watch it just because of it's easily understandable basic principles like chasing people, parkouring, sneaking around, assassinating and brutal killing, which all are intriguing to watch and compelling to a lot of different kind of people. When a lot of people are interested in watching it money will be thrown at the game and its playerbase can start growing.

"I heard JayVal is really stealthy, no-one can see him!" "But he can't ever catch Neenking because he is sooo good at parkour." "Yep, and Ranin's reflexes let him be really agressive and still survive!" "Well, NovaMage will let his target kill his pursuer before he moves in for a clean kill, that's a master-mind for you." "But this guy misleads all other players with his trickery." and so on... Tell about the players like that to a friend and he will be interested even if he never played the game. Can you that with LoL? This kind of variety only in the basic principles already is something almost no other game than AC MP has. Everyone who plays and understands a bit more AC MP would definitely watch it because there is a lot more that goes into the game, intricacies of advanced movements and "ability wars" for example. But some kind of intricacies that can create competition can be found literally in any game.

The basic mechanics are what AC MP as an E-Sport should be build around, abilities and hard-to-pull-off moves are a bit less important because a good ability balance won't make a game interesting to watch to anyone except the ones who play it.

(HeJurm is my original account, forgot email and haven't got it done to have it solved so I'm using this account. I don't want anyone think I'm inexperienced of the game.)

You don't look bad at all and those comments weren't directed at you, more towards the group I will be talking about in Part 2. I compare it to LoL not because of gameplay elements but because of the balance. League is extremely balanced and it should be the standard every game shoots for. The balance of the game has little to do with it's large audience or the money put into advertising it, and more to do with the consistent support. If something broken pops up in League, it's fixed in a week. If a champion is released weak, they'll be buffed in the next patch to make them viable. I talk about League as a background for the system of buffs and nerfs I'll discuss in part 3.

It's easy to look at AC3 and say "Wow, this game is crappy and boring because all it ever is is an ability war." But abilities fit with playstyles. Smoke and knives fit with a fast paced playstyle. Glimmer and disguise fit with stealth. The reason the game seems boring is because the ability war always involves the same five abilities, gun, knives, smoke, wipe and shield. If you had to actually think more about what abilities you wanted to take into a game, the fact that it was all about who used their abilities properly would not matter. Likewise, buffing disguise, glimmer, morph, money bomb, decoy would all buff the stealth playstyle. Buffing closure to not be countered by unstoppable, or nerfing knives to have a shorter duration, would strengthen the speedy playstyle. Lowering the cooldown of poison would buff both stealth and assassinations. As much as there are three playstyles in AC multiplayer each one is generally controlled by the ability balance. Think of stealth vs. speed in ACB Manhunt. Disguise can get you a double hidden incognito with a poison. Knives don't root you in place which allows free runners to shine more. The game has a host of its own problems such as naked stunlocking etc. but in terms of ability balance it's the best of the three.

JayVaI
04-23-2013, 01:48 PM
Ah okay, you were just accounting the good balancing in LoL. Well, maybe I should have realized that when the whole of this first video was pretty much about balance and variety. Those comments just struck me as something else because those were the two things I was talking about here.

Balancing I haven't felt necessary to bring up in my posts other than in the way of balance with different playstyles in AC mp because as you said too, it is (should be) something that every game aims for and is a given if you want to have an e-sports ready game. There are other well balanced e-sport'ish games too, like many RTS-games and all the fighting games with tons of completely different characters, but they just can't make the bigger scene with purely a good balance. They either don't have big enough of a player-base to support it or the games aren't compelling enough for anyone that is not a player of the game to watch it. Assassin's Creed Multiplayer has an enormous advantage in it's fascinating basic principles, so the game does not necessarily need a huge player-base to make it really successful at the start (ofc it would start growing fast if e-sports happened).

Watch TotalBiscuit as he talks about AC mp in that interview I linked, or some of his TGS-podcasts where they talk about new games, he is really excited and positive about the multiplayer part of the game. He even has said multiple times that you should not buy the game for the garbage repetitive singleplayer, but for the fascinating multiplayer. That's just like most of the people here on the MP forums, we don't buy the game for the SP but for the MP. The difference between us and TB is that he's probably the number one critic of games in the world (he's called "The Cynical Brit" for a reason) and that Totalbiscuit does not know anything more than the principles of the game. Still, he gets excited about the game, he sees the potential in it, that in reality is far more that he can even realize.

Chachi McSwaqq
04-25-2013, 02:48 AM
Should AC reach towards ESports purely on basic principles it will need a HUGE boost from the community. That is far from impossible but dealing with the overwhelming negativity from the ACB crowd would have to come before any forward progress with the game could be made.

JayVaI
04-25-2013, 08:55 AM
Should AC reach towards ESports purely on basic principles it will need a HUGE boost from the community. That is far from impossible but dealing with the overwhelming negativity from the ACB crowd would have to come before any forward progress with the game could be made.

If ubisoft put up a few legit tournaments and worked together with mlg or machinima or just a well known all-round shoutcaster (in other words if they would market the game/tournaments) to reach big audiences I think people would be interested in watching it, even with the game at its current state. But yeah the negativity and unwillingness to take the game seriously with the community atm would not make it last for long, which I hope will change in AC4 either by Ubisoft catering towards the whiners or just for once making a fully working game like ACB.

Gosh, about e-sports and MY visions I could go on forever, I'm gonna leave this short for now xD

Chachi McSwaqq
04-28-2013, 07:36 AM
If ubisoft put up a few legit tournaments and worked together with mlg or machinima or just a well known all-round shoutcaster (in other words if they would market the game/tournaments) to reach big audiences I think people would be interested in watching it, even with the game at its current state. But yeah the negativity and unwillingness to take the game seriously with the community atm would not make it last for long, which I hope will change in AC4 either by Ubisoft catering towards the whiners or just for once making a fully working game like ACB.

Gosh, about e-sports and MY visions I could go on forever, I'm gonna leave this short for now xD

I'm not going into it, but ACB is not an eSports ready game either. Closer than ACR, but barely AC3, if at all. If knives alone were nerfed, AC3 would be lightyears closer to eSports balance than ACB. As it is, purely by my own opinion AC3 is slightly closer right now. The only thing ACB has going for it in that regard is a better private match system that still needs an upgrade.

abdullah226
04-28-2013, 07:48 AM
great post chahci 100% agree

TH3 F4T C0BRA
04-28-2013, 05:29 PM
I'm not going into it, but ACB is not an eSports ready game either. Closer than ACR, but barely AC3, if at all. If knives alone were nerfed, AC3 would be lightyears closer to eSports balance than ACB. As it is, purely by my own opinion AC3 is slightly closer right now. The only thing ACB has going for it in that regard is a better private match system that still needs an upgrade.

Chachi, can you please explain why knives would have to be nerfed? I don't really see anyone complaining about this.

I fully agreed with you on drop stuns. They should still be in the game to stop noobs from jumping around all over the place.

I never agreed with you on the merged buttons. (Still a terrible idea!)

alexbentley
04-28-2013, 06:13 PM
Chachi, can you please explain why knives would have to be nerfed? I don't really see anyone complaining about this.

I fully agreed with you on drop stuns. They should still be in the game to stop noobs from jumping around all over the place.

I never agreed with you on the merged buttons. (Still a terrible idea!)

Knives are like the smoke bomb of ranged abilities. Everyone uses them, they slow you down too much for too long of a time period and they have a short cooldown. Either get rid of the ranged ability slot or nerf the crafting options significantly, then they'll be balanced.

TH3 F4T C0BRA
04-28-2013, 06:32 PM
Knives are like the smoke bomb of ranged abilities. Everyone uses them, they slow you down too much for too long of a time period and they have a short cooldown. Either get rid of the ranged ability slot or nerf the crafting options significantly, then they'll be balanced.

"AC3 would be lightyears closer to eSports balance than ACB." This is a blatant overstatement. AC3 is already closer to esports balance. There's nothing wrong with knives. Smoke and firecrackers counter them when knives are used defensively on you. Firecrackers come back real quick too.

I would be extremely happy to go back to the 2 abilities only. Not because of knives though but, because of insane gun lobbies.

dusanpanda
04-29-2013, 04:11 PM
First of all, anyone who thinks that game will be ruined just because its going towards eSport is completely wrong. An eSport game would have to have balance (in abilities etc.), variety and more stuff that ac mp currently doesnt have.

Before you start reading this post you should know that im a new player, i havent played neither ACR nor ACB, but since around february of 2012 ive watched at least 1-3 videos of ACR or ACB a day and it seemed like so much fun. After getting AC3 i kinda got bored with it quickly (i only play like 6-7 games a week) whilst ive been playing LoL for like 2 years now and its still fun as hell. The reason i believe lead to this is that in Lol you have such a balance and such a variety. I mean every player in team, every play, every mistake can win you or lose you the game, when in acmp there isnt such thing. In lol 1 game lasts so 3-4 times longer than in acmp but yet everything can change in like a matter of minute. Thats something acmp doesnt have. After 5 minutes of a game you usually know who will be the winner or which two players will compete to win (except in manhunt) and the rest of players have no chance of a comeback. If they could somehow accomplish that (trust me i dont know how) i think that would be cool, because those would be the moments that would make the crowd go crazy.

Now to talk about variety. Even tho the game has 6 completely differnt modes, and both FFA and team modes the community fails to create a variety of gameplay styles and such. Ubisoft did make some mistakes. Closure could be an awesome ability for AA defense but its useless because unstopabble counters it and everyone has unstopabble in AA. Also, Money Bomb could be an usefull ability if Wipe and Firecrackers didnt reveal players. By fixing those, Closure and Money Bomb could actually be useful and seen in some tournaments. There are a couple more changes that could be easily made that would give the game some variety.

In order for game to have variety of gameplay styles, it has to have perfectly balanced abilites, stealth and free running need to be balanced and such. First, ill talk about making stealth equal to free running. Stealth needs to be buffed. There are abilites that allow you to play stealthy, but they are all easily countered. Another problem is whispers and heartbeats. Whispers basically locate your pursuer, they get noticably louder when your pursuer gets closer. They should either make the whispers turn on when your pursuer is in the same area as you, but they shouldnt get louder, or dispose whispers from the game.

Now about the abilities that counter stealth and that ruin the game. Many players complain about smoke bomb but i think its actually quite balanced in AC3 (maybe they should add a delay but thats all). The biggest problem is Wipe. It needs a nerf. I think it would be eSports ready if it didnt reveal player and had a longer cooldown/ shorter duration or it could be thrown out of game. Closure needs buff, money bomb should be the only ability to reveal players but in that case firecrackers would have to have shorter cooldown. Decoy needs to lose the sound it makes when you use it and the clone needs to be more playerlike. Bodyguard should be killable/stunnable without killing the civilian. Poison needs a bit shorter cd. For ranged abilities, knives are the only one that is good. Nerf knives (longer cd, shorter duration, maybe make them not stop the player completely, adding a range), poison dart needs a larger range and shorter aiming time, not sure what to do with disruption (its a good trolling ability, i like it the way it is) and gun. In order to counter gun, lag needs to be fixed. I get shot through walls all the time. Also, desposing 3rd ability slot could be a good idea because of overuse of knives/gun. Thats it for abilites

Then, they need to reduce the number of bonuses. As much as i know in ACB it was superhard to get Extreme Variety, in ACR it was a bit easier, but in AC3 its super easy. I accomplished to get it in my first game, and if a newb that has never played the game before can do it, everyone can. And if everyone in a game session gets EV it makes no difference. Heres an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAXMKGyNjco . He is an extremly good player but getting EV in 2 stuns and 3 kills just isnt right. One more way to fight this issue is to make variety bonuses less worthy (variety 100, greater variety 250, extreme variety 400 etc.) but also adding Supreme Variety or Superb Variety (call it whatever you like) that would be earned with 20 different bonuses.

Im a PC player, and here one of the biggest problems is lack of good players, clans and players at all. PC side of game has barely any chance for becoming eSport because of this reason. So in order for PC players to acmp eSportlike game we must get an xbox or ps and the game for console, but i dont think that should be much of a problem since xbox is quite cheap.

One of the biggest issues in this game are maps. Northwest passage was the only map that was kind of different and that brought kind of a different playstyle. They have to bring some variety in maps. Plus, they were too easy to learn and they bored me too early. When it comes to maps i tottally agree with what Chachi said so i wont be going through that.

Matchmaking and private matches do need to be fixed. But you already know all about that.

And of course, the game needs Spectator mode. It has to have a well done HUD and everyone that watches the game in spectator mode should understand what is happening, whether or not youre player. Spectator should know more then the player does, so there has to be a list of players, their targets and pursuers and such. When it comes to spectator mode Riot has done a great job in LoL and they should look up to them in this area.

Thanks for reading this, leave a reply with your opinion on what i said here.

JayVaI
04-29-2013, 05:58 PM
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You seem to be well on top of things! Everything you've said is reasonable and you've taken into consideration pretty much everything relevant.

One thing you might be happy to hear about is that there actually is a lot of competitive players on PC, too. Here's a thread about a PC AA league with 15 competitive teams, and that's not even nearly all the best players I know: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/760954-AC3-Artifact-Assault-League-(PC)

dusanpanda
04-29-2013, 06:29 PM
You seem to be well on top of things! Everything you've said is reasonable and you've taken into consideration pretty much everything relevant.

One thing you might be happy to hear about is that there actually is a lot of competitive players on PC, too. Here's a thread about a PC AA league with 15 competitive teams, and that's not even nearly all the best players I know: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/760954-AC3-Artifact-Assault-League-(PC)

I didnt know that and im quite happy to hear that. But in my case, ive had quite many problems with private matchmaking when i was in a clan. We kept getting disconnected from the host even tho everyones NAT was green/yellow. We did manage to play a couple of games but it took too much effort to do it.

lBamitsMichael
04-29-2013, 06:47 PM
Free roam would be nice, though probably not going to happen..
I'd like a mode where i can play with friends without killing them or others but still get experience to level up, like doing assassination missions for some NPC's or watching a thief steal money or some fruit from a stall and then you could come in and steal it back or capture them some how then return the stolen item to it's owner for EXP and Abstergo Credits, that'd be amazing.

alexbentley
04-29-2013, 10:01 PM
"AC3 would be lightyears closer to eSports balance than ACB." This is a blatant overstatement. AC3 is already closer to esports balance. There's nothing wrong with knives. Smoke and firecrackers counter them when knives are used defensively on you. Firecrackers come back real quick too.

I would be extremely happy to go back to the 2 abilities only. Not because of knives though but, because of insane gun lobbies.

Just reminding you that I didn't say that, I'm only giving reasons why I personally think knives should be nerfed. Talk to Chachi if you want to discuss balancing between ACB and AC3.
And knives aren't only used defensively, you know. Ever played AA? If you need one solid piece of evidence as for why knives are OP in their current state it's AA. Ideally, the ranged ability slot would be removed and it would balance a lot of itself out naturally. :)

Chachi McSwaqq
05-01-2013, 08:43 PM
"AC3 would be lightyears closer to eSports balance than ACB." This is a blatant overstatement. AC3 is already closer to esports balance. There's nothing wrong with knives. Smoke and firecrackers counter them when knives are used defensively on you. Firecrackers come back real quick too.

I would be extremely happy to go back to the 2 abilities only. Not because of knives though but, because of insane gun lobbies.

There is a LOT wrong with knives. Your "counters" listed do not work on players that know what they're doing. It's not like "Oh if the counter couldn't be avoided even by talented players then the ability would be useless." If a player properly uses an ability to counter another ability he should AT LEAST void the two abilities and escape the effect. If you can use an ability and avoid the counter through basic mechanics, it isn't a counter. Avoiding firecrackers is not difficult at all unless they happen to be standing in a blend group knifed when they use them. Even then it still makes all the other civilians duck. All you need to do is continue to run straight forward and press the X button 99% of the time to avoid firecrackers. I mean it's not like they can drop them and then move or tactically position themselves. That's not how knives work.

DomdudeDaGreat
05-01-2013, 09:02 PM
Knives are like the smoke bomb of ranged abilities. Everyone uses them, they slow you down too much for too long of a time period and they have a short cooldown. Either get rid of the ranged ability slot or nerf the crafting options significantly, then they'll be balanced.

Urrm, no. Gun is the SB of ranged abilities, try quick-scoping someone through a wall 100 feet away with a flintlock pistol.

TH3 F4T C0BRA
05-02-2013, 02:41 AM
There is a LOT wrong with knives. Your "counters" listed do not work on players that know what they're doing. It's not like "Oh if the counter couldn't be avoided even by talented players then the ability would be useless." If a player properly uses an ability to counter another ability he should AT LEAST void the two abilities and escape the effect. If you can use an ability and avoid the counter through basic mechanics, it isn't a counter. Avoiding firecrackers is not difficult at all unless they happen to be standing in a blend group knifed when they use them. Even then it still makes all the other civilians duck. All you need to do is continue to run straight forward and press the X button 99% of the time to avoid firecrackers. I mean it's not like they can drop them and then move or tactically position themselves. That's not how knives work.

Scenario 1.

Player A. (Target) uses knives on pursuer.

Player B. (Pursuer) uses firecrackers when Player A. gets close and reduces their stun range.

Player B. kills Player A. Knives countered.


Scenario 2.

Player A. (Target) uses knives on pursuer.

Player B. (Pursuer) uses Smokebomb when Player A. gets close.

Player B. kills Player A. Knives countered.


Don't roof like a maniac.
No reason for knives to be used on you.

Don't run around like a maniac.
No reason for knives to be used on you.

Maybe we play different modes.

Knives are fine the way they are!

There are bigger fish to fry.

TH3 F4T C0BRA
05-02-2013, 02:42 AM
Urrm, no. Gun is the SB of ranged abilities, try quick-scoping someone through a wall 100 feet away with a flintlock pistol.

Thanks Dom. Amen!

Chachi McSwaqq
05-02-2013, 08:09 AM
Scenario 1.

Player A. (Target) uses knives on pursuer.

Player B. (Pursuer) uses firecrackers when Player A. gets close and reduces their stun range.

Player B. kills Player A. Knives countered.


Scenario 2.

Player A. (Target) uses knives on pursuer.

Player B. (Pursuer) uses Smokebomb when Player A. gets close.

Player B. kills Player A. Knives countered.


Don't roof like a maniac.
No reason for knives to be used on you.

Don't run around like a maniac.
No reason for knives to be used on you.

Maybe we play different modes.

Knives are fine the way they are!

There are bigger fish to fry.

Those scenarios are not realistic. I'm not sure who you play with or what mode, but myself and any of the countless better players than I do not just knife and run in for a kill. All we have to do is stop outside the radius. Knives have such an absurd duration even WITHOUT knocking someone from a ledge that simply waiting for the "counter" to expire gives you a free kill and wastes one of their main abilities.

lBamitsMichael
05-02-2013, 02:10 PM
Those scenarios are not realistic. I'm not sure who you play with or what mode, but myself and any of the countless better players than I do not just knife and run in for a kill. All we have to do is stop outside the radius. Knives have such an absurd duration even WITHOUT knocking someone from a ledge that simply waiting for the "counter" to expire gives you a free kill and wastes one of their main abilities.

Scenario 2 happens in assassinate alot but you can counter that counter by using animus shield so it's not a very good counter...

This (http://youtu.be/uaIeJGB4xYs?t=17s) can happen if you're the host in assassinate.

TH3 F4T C0BRA
05-02-2013, 02:42 PM
Those scenarios are not realistic. I'm not sure who you play with or what mode, but myself and any of the countless better players than I do not just knife and run in for a kill. All we have to do is stop outside the radius. Knives have such an absurd duration even WITHOUT knocking someone from a ledge that simply waiting for the "counter" to expire gives you a free kill and wastes one of their main abilities.

So you've never countered knives with smoke against a great player?

If you know they're not going to rush in then you just wait longer and time it better.

Both situations are extremely realistic in wanted and happen on a nightly basis.

The point is there are other things that need to be fixed in this game way before knives need to get nerfed.

Leave knives alone. Knives can be used in e-sports just fine.

TH3 F4T C0BRA
05-02-2013, 02:59 PM
Scenario 2 happens in assassinate alot but you can counter that counter by using animus shield so it's not a very good counter...

This (http://youtu.be/uaIeJGB4xYs?t=17s) can happen if you're the host in assassinate.

Most people will use knife and then animus shield right away so it doesn't matter how long knives last.

In this example it's the animus shield that can't be countered not knives.

DomdudeDaGreat
05-02-2013, 03:22 PM
Those scenarios are not realistic. I'm not sure who you play with or what mode, but myself and any of the countless better players than I do not just knife and run in for a kill. All we have to do is stop outside the radius. Knives have such an absurd duration even WITHOUT knocking someone from a ledge that simply waiting for the "counter" to expire gives you a free kill and wastes one of their main abilities.

These are scenaios that happen to me every match I play assassinate. Though when Im player A it usually happens like this:

Player A. (Target) uses knives on pursuer. Knowing pursuer has abilities puts on animus shield

Player B. (Pursuer) wastes a smoke bomb before noticing animus shield

Player A. stuns player B and gets a silent focus poison kill on payer B.

Player A. MAXIMUM TROLLING ACHIEVED

TH3 F4T C0BRA
05-02-2013, 03:31 PM
These are scenaios that happen to me every match I play assassinate. Though when Im player A it usually happens like this:

Player A. (Target) uses knives on pursuer. Knowing pursuer has abilities puts on animus shield

Player B. (Pursuer) wastes a smoke bomb before noticing animus shield

Player A. stuns player B and gets a silent focus poison kill on player B.

Player A. MAXIMUM TROLLING ACHIEVED

:p Yes Dom this happens quite often. Nonetheless, It's because of animus shield that the knives can't be countered.

Vaiire
05-07-2013, 11:38 AM
To the gentlemen debating Throwing Knives, all those scenarios are based off of, most likely, free-for-all games like Assassinate, Deathmatch and Wanted. But what of team modes? Team modes are a necessity to achieving eSports status. As it stands, Chachi is correct in saying Throwing Knives are over-powered when evaluating their effectiveness in a team mode. I play competitive Artifact Assault primarily as a defender and even I have to say I'm sick of them.

Firstly, they slow down the overall pace of the game and remove 45% (ha, ha... get it? 45 second cool down) of skill necessary to play hard defence without diverting to littering the field with Trip Wire Bombs. Now while they can be countered with excellent team-work, or a well-placed Smoke Bomb or a rapid Teleport before they catch you, all of it can be denied with either Wipe, Animus Shield, your own teamwork or another Throwing Knife. For example, a runner charges into my base and begins to parkour around, wall-ejecting like a boss and generally making a mockery out of my defence, I'd usually throw a Throwing Knife as soon as it's available or as soon as their shield runs out. Now what that does is, if they're on a beam or a ledge, they fall to the ground and are unable to do anything-- then you've got that absolutely irritating "bleeding effect" that stops you from moving for, depending on the craft of the knives, up to 7 seconds. As a runner, I'd be pretty angry about something like that, especially when the defender can easily predict a Smoke Bomb or climb a nearby acro-perch.

Second, there is no absolute counter to knives. Even if you preemptively pop Animus Shield and block a single Throwing Knife, chances are you have 3 more coming right at you. You're not going to get away... not unless you're an absolute professional player with professional teammates and have a professional strategy to counter their defence. Smoke? Shield. Teleport? Knife/Wipe. Teammates? Die and you're knifed again. Smoke-stun one of their defence? Another guy is on you and you're most likely still effected by the first Throwing Knife.

While that applies solely to Artifact Assault, you still have Domination and Manhunt. In Manhunt, people can use both Pistol and Knife-- mostly Pistol for those chunky Greater Variety/Execution kills. If you have a solid plan like using a Throwing Knife so you're teammate can collect the Incognito/Silent. If you're up against a bunch of point-starvers, Throwing Knives become you're greatest ally, allowing you to pin them in place for a solid kill, depending on the RDM. In Domination, knives can be used to stop that pesky circle-stealer parkouring around like a champ and kill him.

JayVaI
05-07-2013, 04:07 PM
To the gentlemen debating Throwing Knives, all those scenarios are based off of, most likely, free-for-all games like Assassinate, Deathmatch and Wanted. But what of team modes? Team modes are a necessity to achieving eSports status. As it stands, Chachi is correct in saying Throwing Knives are over-powered when evaluating their effectiveness in a team mode. I play competitive Artifact Assault primarily as a defender and even I have to say I'm sick of them.

Firstly, they slow down the overall pace of the game and remove 45% (ha, ha... get it? 45 second cool down) of skill necessary to play hard defence without diverting to littering the field with Trip Wire Bombs. Now while they can be countered with excellent team-work, or a well-placed Smoke Bomb or a rapid Teleport before they catch you, all of it can be denied with either Wipe, Animus Shield, your own teamwork or another Throwing Knife. For example, a runner charges into my base and begins to parkour around, wall-ejecting like a boss and generally making a mockery out of my defence, I'd usually throw a Throwing Knife as soon as it's available or as soon as their shield runs out. Now what that does is, if they're on a beam or a ledge, they fall to the ground and are unable to do anything-- then you've got that absolutely irritating "bleeding effect" that stops you from moving for, depending on the craft of the knives, up to 7 seconds. As a runner, I'd be pretty angry about something like that, especially when the defender can easily predict a Smoke Bomb or climb a nearby acro-perch.

Second, there is no absolute counter to knives. Even if you preemptively pop Animus Shield and block a single Throwing Knife, chances are you have 3 more coming right at you. You're not going to get away... not unless you're an absolute professional player with professional teammates and have a professional strategy to counter their defence. Smoke? Shield. Teleport? Knife/Wipe. Teammates? Die and you're knifed again. Smoke-stun one of their defence? Another guy is on you and you're most likely still effected by the first Throwing Knife.

While that applies solely to Artifact Assault, you still have Domination and Manhunt. In Manhunt, people can use both Pistol and Knife-- mostly Pistol for those chunky Greater Variety/Execution kills. If you have a solid plan like using a Throwing Knife so you're teammate can collect the Incognito/Silent. If you're up against a bunch of point-starvers, Throwing Knives become you're greatest ally, allowing you to pin them in place for a solid kill, depending on the RDM. In Domination, knives can be used to stop that pesky circle-stealer parkouring around like a champ and kill him.

Great post!

I'm a bit partial about should knives be nerfed. I think they are too strong, but imo if they didn't shorten the action range of the affected player like in ACB, or if an ability existed which only did that but didn't have to slow down effect it would be much better. Why I don't want knives to be nerfed though is because there is nothing else to choose from for a ranged ability except gun but it's uses are limited. It would be much better if they had more abilities that were dedicated for different uses rather than one ability (=the current knives) that fits all situations.

Rainin420
05-08-2013, 02:30 AM
Great post!

I'm a bit partial about should knives be nerfed. I think they are too strong, but imo if they didn't shorten the action range of the affected player like in ACB, or if an ability existed which only did that but didn't have to slow down effect it would be much better. Why I don't want knives to be nerfed though is because there is nothing else to choose from for a ranged ability except gun but it's uses are limited. It would be much better if they had more abilities that were dedicated for different uses rather than one ability (=the current knives) that fits all situations.

Most abilities can be re-adjusted by simply increasing/decreasing their cooldown. Knives are one of these.. they are powerful but the biggest issue is their low cooldown doesn't reflect their power. Smoke Bomb and Animus Shield are very powerful but also have a 100 sec base cooldown. Knives cooldown should be Increased to make other options more appealing, and this is important.. MORE VIABLE options should be available in place of knives.

Emvidasch
05-08-2013, 12:38 PM
Most abilities can be re-adjusted by simply increasing/decreasing their cooldown. Knives are one of these.. they are powerful but the biggest issue is their low cooldown doesn't reflect their power. Smoke Bomb and Animus Shield are very powerful but also have a 100 sec base cooldown. Knives cooldown should be Increased to make other options more appealing, and this is important.. MORE VIABLE options should be available in place of knives.

Wouldn't give knives the same cooldown as smoke though. While both abilities can do a lot of similar things, Knives are only effective against one person and require you to approach carefully in order to stun / uncontested kill, which is not always possible. While I would love to see knives go back to their ACB form (just the knockdown/slow effect), it's likely not going to happen and shouldn't if there aren't more viable options like you said, but from a developer's point of view, I see why knives don't have the same cooldown as a smoke bomb.

Increasing / decreasing cooldowns might balance abilities out but doesn't create variety. Eliminating double effects would be a better way to go. I wrote some stuff on that in a big post on page 2 i think. It's actually possible for people to start using Money Bomb if it's the only thing that counters blending.

Tha Fazz
05-08-2013, 03:19 PM
Wouldn't give knives the same cooldown as smoke though. While both abilities can do a lot of similar things, Knives are only effective against one person and require you to approach carefully in order to stun / uncontested kill, which is not always possible. While I would love to see knives go back to their ACB form (just the knockdown/slow effect), it's likely not going to happen and shouldn't if there aren't more viable options like you said, but from a developer's point of view, I see why knives don't have the same cooldown as a smoke bomb.

Increasing / decreasing cooldowns might balance abilities out but doesn't create variety. Eliminating double effects would be a better way to go. I wrote some stuff on that in a big post on page 2 i think. It's actually possible for people to start using Money Bomb if it's the only thing that counters blending.
Agreed. I do think the knives should have a bit bigger cooldown, but that alone doesn't make knives any less powerful, it just means it will be used less times per session. Knives were perfect in ACB and I hope they make a return in AC4. And I think removing the 3rd ability slot would give more variety in abilities used because as it is now, there's no reason not to use knives. If the removed the 3rd slot people would have to put a lot more thinking into what abilities they would want to bring.

Chachi McSwaqq
05-08-2013, 09:39 PM
So you've never countered knives with smoke against a great player?

If you know they're not going to rush in then you just wait longer and time it better.

Both situations are extremely realistic in wanted and happen on a nightly basis.

The point is there are other things that need to be fixed in this game way before knives need to get nerfed.

Leave knives alone. Knives can be used in e-sports just fine.

eSports would be team modes. No, knives are not balanced in team modes. And the fact that the knife-shield stun beats everything is not shield being overpowered. If knives didn't reduce kill and stun range then it wouldn't work, OR if they did so for a shorter duration / didn't root in place.

Chachi McSwaqq
05-08-2013, 09:42 PM
Also all of the people stating how other ranged abilities would need buffs: I'm talking about this in the context of balancing all abilities. This means Disruption and Dart are buffed, while Knives are nerfed, and Gun stays pretty much the way it is. Maybe a slightly longer aiming time if anything.

Chachi McSwaqq
05-13-2013, 08:35 AM
Bumping this thread for further opinions as after today I'll have the chance to make part 2 of the video trilogy!

JayVaI
05-13-2013, 07:31 PM
Definitely lengthen the gun aiming time. There is a thread (2 actually) about a new kind of a ranged ability that would silence whispers without any notification, which would be more of a stealthy ability. I'm sure there are a lot of other different ranged abilitys they could add into the game to make the ranged slot even more varied.

Chachi McSwaqq
05-15-2013, 06:56 AM
Definitely lengthen the gun aiming time. There is a thread (2 actually) about a new kind of a ranged ability that would silence whispers without any notification, which would be more of a stealthy ability. I'm sure there are a lot of other different ranged abilitys they could add into the game to make the ranged slot even more varied.

That would definitely be a really interesting ability, though they would need to give it about a 20-second duration and a long enough range to beat the range of whispers.

JayVaI
05-15-2013, 04:23 PM
That would definitely be a really interesting ability, though they would need to give it about a 20-second duration and a long enough range to beat the range of whispers.

Yeah, the duration could be made long enough that it can beat whispers if used at the right distance. It could also remove one pursuer from the targets HUD for the duration of the ability, so then the ability would be really useful even with a lower duration. Duration would of course be craftable so you could craft it for the 15 or 20 sec even if it originally was shorter.

This ability would most likely only be useful against your target, so to balance it off another ability that messed with your pursuers compass and heartbeat sound or something like that without any notification to the affected player. These kind of abilities would most certainly help up the stealthy playstyles to par with other styles.

Chachi McSwaqq
05-22-2013, 10:53 PM
Yeah, the duration could be made long enough that it can beat whispers if used at the right distance. It could also remove one pursuer from the targets HUD for the duration of the ability, so then the ability would be really useful even with a lower duration. Duration would of course be craftable so you could craft it for the 15 or 20 sec even if it originally was shorter.

This ability would most likely only be useful against your target, so to balance it off another ability that messed with your pursuers compass and heartbeat sound or something like that without any notification to the affected player. These kind of abilities would most certainly help up the stealthy playstyles to par with other styles.

I think these abilities could be combined into one and be dependent on contract status. Streamlining the ability list would be useful.

BATISTABUS
05-22-2013, 11:01 PM
I've said this before in other threads, but it applies to this topic.

For this game to be competitive, the game itself has to support that. If doing well in a game puts more Pursuers on you (as in the Wanted contract system), this is punishing you for doing well. Competitive games should not punish you for doing well under any circumstances, and they should not hold your hand if you are doing poorly.

Aside from that, the game has to provide many opportunities for players to showcase their skill (which in this game is movement and strategy based). To maximize the potential for skill gap (because this is the basis of competition), I think abilities should overall be less effective than they are.

Also, if this game is to remain a stealth game at the competitive level, Whispers needs to be addressed in some form, and the score system needs to further encourage low-profile kills.